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lljkDeathscythe
Carebear Poachers plc
Posted - 2009.10.17 09:39:00 - [31]
 

You moan that caldari are underpowered because u need to sacrifice a point or web on a drake to make it effectively unkillable by another pvp ship? Sorry that makes no sense, so u want an uncrackable tank on a BC class ship AND a point/web?

Falcon was nerfed because it was so rediculously good if you didn't have one you lost.

I hope CCP have enough intelligence to disregard most of this.

Xing Fey
Posted - 2009.10.17 09:51:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Xing Fey on 17/10/2009 09:52:22
Drones realy don't deal enough damage to make them any comparison to missiles. A dominix relies on support from either neuts or guns to make it realy compete. If you look across all ships in the game you see only dedicated drone-ships can realy carry a full rack of heavies, orther ships have to use either mediums or a mixture at best.


Caldrai ships have more midslts than any other ship, they are completely capable of fitting a web as long as you stop trying to cram every last bit of space full of shield mods.

Torpedos barely need a buff at all. they are the best sub-capital weapons system in the game, with the highest real applied DPS of all weapons by a very wide margin. That even a ship wiht only 6 of them can outdamage any gun-ship AND chose it's damage type is more than proof of this.


@ "tp is a minmatar thing" so are the vaunted webs you are complaing about, scrams are a gallente thing, should non-gallente ships fly without tackle?

It's basicly a damage-mod for your midslots that is not stacking nerfed with the other ones.


also: "over-reliance on cap", you sure you aren't getting caldari confused with amarr?

basher897
Posted - 2009.10.17 10:27:00 - [33]
 

Sorry delta but even thought caldari are a good ewar platform. The falcon, rook etc can perma jam anything meaning anyone with a few falcons on the field sitting about 50k+ is insane they need to be nerfed right down so that perma jam is either difficult or range is shorter. and caldari are a good PVP race just not for solo, but in fleet missiles can take huge chunks out of a megathrons buffer or abaddons buffer.

so my advice is either cross train into another race like minmatter so you can go out on a solo roam and kickass Smile

fab24
Gallente
Tax Fraud Corporation
Posted - 2009.10.17 10:32:00 - [34]
 

Look at minmatars before you say CCP are caldari racists.

Dr Karsun
Gallente
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
Posted - 2009.10.17 10:32:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Dr Karsun on 17/10/2009 10:33:40
... I can't believe I see caldari whining that they are weak... Guys, you got the BEST EW module in the game and INSANE % bonuses to it compared to 5%, 10% bonuses to sensor damps or other ew modules other factions get...

You still got SHIELD TANKS which are far easier to maintain than armor tanks because they recharge by them selves.

CCP, boost drones! Drones are STILL very weak and most of all very stupid, boost their AI and make them LISTEN to orders.

And if a caldari wants to quit the game because he thinks caldari ships are the 'worst' please let him, caldari are still, by far, in the top 2 races - amarr and caldari are still very, very equally powered. Their power is just in different places.

Shh, think, when was the last GALLENTE got anything significantly fixed, added, made better, boosted (whatever expression you like) with drones? Even the minamtar had their speed boosted, as you say...

/not signed at all

Shas Shadow
Caldari
Havoc Violence and Chaos
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2009.10.17 10:37:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Xing Fey
Edited by: Xing Fey on 17/10/2009 09:52:22
Caldrai ships have more midslts than any other ship, they are completely capable of fitting a web as long as you stop trying to cram every last bit of space full of shield mods.


You are basically forced to fill you meds with shield mods because they give very low amount of buffer, the same things you put on cruisers have to be put on battleships, as said before there must be something as a 1600mm plate for shields.

Also ECM unlike the other forms of ewar (not counting warp core stabs) can be countered, why not making an active module that can counter sensor damp, scram, web, tp, and so on?

Caldari is certainly underpowered except for a few select scenarios. If you could shield tank on lows or if the mods actually matched the needs of a battleship and other large ships there would be much more caldari in pvp, and they would be less then easy prey.

Dr Karsun
Gallente
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
Posted - 2009.10.17 10:48:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Shas Shadow
Originally by: Xing Fey
Edited by: Xing Fey on 17/10/2009 09:52:22
Caldrai ships have more midslts than any other ship, they are completely capable of fitting a web as long as you stop trying to cram every last bit of space full of shield mods.


You are basically forced to fill you meds with shield mods because they give very low amount of buffer, the same things you put on cruisers have to be put on battleships, as said before there must be something as a 1600mm plate for shields.

Also ECM unlike the other forms of ewar (not counting warp core stabs) can be countered, why not making an active module that can counter sensor damp, scram, web, tp, and so on?

Caldari is certainly underpowered except for a few select scenarios. If you could shield tank on lows or if the mods actually matched the needs of a battleship and other large ships there would be much more caldari in pvp, and they would be less then easy prey.


Yeah, well, putting a 1600 on a cruiser basically takes most of it's PG... You really think it's so important to have such a thing for a shield tanker?

And the gallente have to "waste" their low slots that could be 1600's for mag stabs and damage controls and I don't know what other crap they want to fit there... Jeez, it's all about chosing.

And may I remind you that the shield tankers have such a thing as "X-Large shield booster"? The armor tankers have got nothing NEAR an X-Large amor repairer that would be bs-fittable for a similar 200-300k price (not mentioning that there is a t2 version of it I think?)

Moby Mirra
Posted - 2009.10.17 10:58:00 - [38]
 

As it is written: "flying Minamatar is like playing EVE on hard mode."

Just because the OP isn't pleased with his fits don't work doesn't mean that the Caldari are nearly as bad as people say.

Vampiress
Minmatar
The Warp Squad
Deadly Unknown
Posted - 2009.10.17 11:06:00 - [39]
 

what ccp should do is simple .....kill the drakes tank more and boost is dmg ..like ..insteed of 5% bonus to resist give 5% bonus to missile rate of fire or something ...and delta i hate drakes so i wont agree with u on the tank side ..after the myrm nerf there wasnt a bc to solo drake so if you are getting killed by one in 1vs1 your doing it wrong but i will agree on the dmg side caldari should start to get boosted to be a solo race as well when nano age was on missiles had like 1000m/sec exp velocity (cruise( now they got barelly 130 or so so is same **** as before u still hit lower a ship going 130+m/sec the exp radius on t2 missiles is incrediblly high so eve heavy missiles can be used mostlly on bs's ...rockets have no purpose in eve ..as well as the standard missiles crow cant own anything in a 1vs1 interceptor shoots to slow rockets hit anything for crap cuz of exp velocity heavyes r decent but crap as well ..heavy assaults deal a less alpha in order to be nice ..cruise r only used by cerebears in lvl 4 missions and torps cant do **** ..a torp raven cant breach the buffer of a mega or an abaddon or another race ..i fly all races and i can say for sure missiles suck ..even with the super cap event on test server i tested all caldari ships with lvl 5 in skills and dont compare to there oponents ..ccp should do something like heavy assault missiles with heavy missile alpha as in shoot 3 sec or so with 3000alpha then maybe torps should have cruise missile exp radius and that damn guided missile precision bonus should start affecting torps as well and one last thing BOOST THE RATE OF FIRE AND EXP VELOCITY of missiles so caldari can actually ****en do something here ..when u see a drake on scan not to think ..i can pwn him easy ...just think as ..ill get owned missiles were awsome 2004-2005 and then started to degreade and get to the crap we see today ....and one more thing ..boost eos to 125m3 bandwith control on drones so it can freaking deploy 5 ogre's as it used to do 2 years ago ..k tks

Tokran Inami
Matari Exodus
Posted - 2009.10.17 11:07:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Tokran Inami on 17/10/2009 11:19:12
Edited by: Tokran Inami on 17/10/2009 11:08:13
Ok, when i first read this thread i was sure it would be a joke.... as it is obviously not i'll have to say a few words.

Originally by: Deltaprimus
ECM:[...]Now a falcon cant even get the jame strength to perma jam a bs in one jammer.

Well... maybe it should not be the role of a cruiser to keep 4-5 BS completely out of the game? If you ask the average eve player i think 9 out of 10 will still say that ecm is the most powerful ewar in the game.

Originally by: Deltaprimus
Missiles:[...]people whined and whined until then missiles were nerfed so there was absolutley no point to nerfing speed cus after the missile nerf we still couldnt hit them!

Hm... maybe you shouldnt try using torps to catch frigs. I dont know what your point is. Missile dont have more problems in hitting fast ships than turrets. You may think about the fact, that a mwd fitted on anythink else than inty will NOT reduce your damage taken a lot, more often it will increase it. So you may have problems doing full damage on ab-fitted of your size or smaller. But so have turrets, see, there's a thing called tracking. And you may note that you can, very much different to turret user, move your own ship as fast as you want without losing dps.

Originally by: Deltaprimus
Drake:
Used to be one of the toughest nuts in the game. Nearly uncrakable.[...]And if i wanted to make my drake un crackable i have to loose the point for more resists or shield.

So you want a ship that has a tank wich cannot be broken by any other ship and still has the ability to keep that other ship tackled, do I understand that righ? Don't think thats gonna happen. Drake is still one of the if not the best BC in game. There are few other BC setups that even stand a chance in a 1vs1 against a good fitted drake. You think Shield buffer is underpowered? What about a drake having the EHP of an average Plated BS? What about shield buffers also adding some nice amount of HP regeneration an thus tank? What about shield buffers not reducing your speed and agility? Why do you think there are so many shield buffered Hurricanes out there?

Originally by: Deltaprimus
damage bonuses is limited to kinetic damage type (highest damage resist in the game for all ships(mainly))

Hm, i cant help it, every time i have a look into EFT my minmatar t2 Ships seem to have a ****ing large Kin-resist hole. And all my armor tanked ships seem to have kinetic as their second lowest resistence. There surely must be something wrong with my version of EFT. And also the rumours of caldary beeing able to choose their dmg type without changing base damage or range or having to take strange mixtures of damage must clearly be wrong.
You think caldari need high SP to be effective? What about Minmatar having to train projetiles, missiles, drones, shield tanking and armor tanking to be able to fly most of their ships effectively?
There are sure some problems among the caldari ships. For example most of their frigs are somewhat lacking (except maybe the Crow), mostly due to the bad performance of small missiles against other frigs. I also dont want to speak about Amarr... thats a problem most other Races share with you.
But to say Caldari beeing horribly underpowered to any other race is so much wrong, i dont even know how to call it.

P.S.: as a small sidemark: i am a minmatar pilot, but i only recently started cross training to Caldari... can fly Caracal and Drake now, looking forward towards Cerb, Nighthawk and Raven. Also my Missile Launcher Operation SP are more and more coming near to my Gunnery Skills. So either i'm a complete Idiot our Missiles/Caldari Ships are actually of some use.

Deltaprimus
Shadow Legion.
Posted - 2009.10.17 11:18:00 - [41]
 

now the trolls are out lol

people were starting to think subjectivley for a second then but the n it went back to what can i get for me.... fail..

every counter u guys come up with fails. "The raven has loads of mid slots so u can tank and put ewar" i dont know what uve been doing in eve mate but im surpirsed you know how to undock. I can fit a core defence extenders II with three large shield extenders two invulnis a photon 4 pdu's and a dcu II and not have anywhere near the ehp of any armor tanking bs.. and thst one of the best fits for the raven ifur using it as a buffer tank.

also ok if we agree to take out the ecm of the equasions once again name me one other race forced to cross train cus its races ships are obsolete when it comes to solo pvp. Gallente can solo pvp much more effectively from the word go than a caldari can.

also u say add a target painter. ok so now im adding a target painter a web and a scram. thats 3 out of the 6/ a raven gets so now i can fit 2 large extenders an invulni and a photon. Putd resists at 60%em... great a harbinger comes across me im dead... or a torp phoon... oh and btw the large extenders are the equivilent of putting 800mm plates on ur abaddon. its fail.

and also target painting a minmattar is great i get a pretty little red laser aimed at the ship and when my missile hits i can now it for like 7 hp (exageration). great give me a ocuple of hours if the standard recharge rate of the shield malfunctions ill be able to kill the vaga...

as for the let the one caldari pilot walk from eve. it isnt just me. Not only does the entire caldari race voice my thoughts as u can see other bystanders from other races seek to make the game fair cus they can see caldari have been neglected.

One guy said it right. No wander people think caldari are carebears they keep getting their teeth and claws taken away...

Dr Karsun
Gallente
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
Posted - 2009.10.17 11:29:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Deltaprimus

as for the let the one caldari pilot walk from eve. it isnt just me. Not only does the entire caldari race voice my thoughts as u can see other bystanders from other races seek to make the game fair cus they can see caldari have been neglected.



If you are representing the word of the caldari... That's not really a smart voice...

Again... Caldari beeing neglected... And what about the -gallente- beeing neglected? If you want to moan I can also throw in a few moans...

Frigs and t2 frigs can often easily escape small drones if they have a mwd... Warrior II are really fast but "NOES" the ceptors can run away from them really easily D: How will we live with that? BOOST DRONE SPEED!

Seriously, don't say the caldari are neglected... They still got some of the best ships, they got the golem which is 2nd best marauder (many say paladin is best, not sure), they got the best tanking bc, also it is a CHEAP bc (drake). They got great ECM.

And although I don't see patch notes for dominion to make the caldari the super-best-race (to my satisfaction), I see many voices to actually NERF drones... Yeah, so that the gallente have to switch to guns too...

Dude, cross-train if you want to, but shield tankers are really good, it's just a matter of finding the right fit and rigging it.

And the caldari get their teeth ripped out? Oh my, again, look at gallente... Nerfing drones, if it will happen as many want, will cause their 'spetiality' to be complete crap. The drone control is really poor, limited, slow, you need to hide them not to lose them before they warp away, they are expensive and easy to lose... And a raven can just warp away without any loss if he sees a frig approaching and thinks it'll tackle him. He won't leave anything behind.

Deltaprimus
Shadow Legion.
Posted - 2009.10.17 11:31:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Tokran Inami
P.S.: as a small sidemark: i am a minmatar pilot, but i only recently started cross training to Caldari... can fly Caracal and Drake now, looking forward towards Cerb, Nighthawk and Raven. Also my Missile Launcher Operation SP are more and more coming near to my Gunnery Skills. So either i'm a complete Idiot our Missiles/Caldari Ships are actually of some use.


Dont bother dude.

and yes ur comment about the drake having an ehp of a bs has some merit its countered by the problem we have the same sig res as a cap ship. The large shield extenders five us such a huge sig red u couldnt miss a drake if it was behind a black hole.

agreed ecm was too powerful before but ccp has gone from one extreme to the other. Itsn ow hard to use a racial to jam a single ship. Imagine someone taking ur favourite toy and smashing it on the floor. this is effectivly what ccp did for the caldari.

It comes to this caldari never has had many options for combat. We have had ecm, missiles, shield tnaking, and thats about it. We cant go as fast as the other races, we cant tank as well as the other races, we cant out dps any other races, the raven is effectively our biggest threat and that cant kill any other bs in game solo even with huge alpha because torpedoes fire every 11 seconds and then take 5 seconds to get to the target.

minmattar have drones, you have sick tracking with autocannons as well as dps, u have good shield tnakers which allow you to gank fit so you can tank better and do more dps, your recons serve an actual purpose now and havnt been nerfed so hard they find it difficult to fulfill the purpose for which they are created. Any nubbins who knows theres a falcon around fits an eccm in his mid slots (that doesnt effect his tank in anyway) and will only be jammed for a cycle in the entire fight.

its degrading that we one of the largest races in player numbers are bottom of the rung for pvp...

Deltaprimus
Shadow Legion.
Posted - 2009.10.17 11:39:00 - [44]
 

this post isnt about other races having issues. Its the discussion that caldari are bottom of the pile. I dont agree with the game being changed to make it easier for certain races to dominate pvp. With drones nerfed then the amarr really will dominate. They will out dps any other race.

All im asking is people take a serious unblinkered look at caldari and say hell guys we ned to give these guys a chance. make it so that when caldari are seen in system were a god damn challenge not a joke. It takes the P*** tbf. ill say it again no other race has to cross train to be effective at pvp WHY SHOULD WE?!

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2009.10.17 11:41:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 17/10/2009 11:47:31
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 17/10/2009 11:43:02
Uhh, is this a troll? I fly Caldari pretty much exclusively and finding it great. Certainly a much longer list of viable ships than what anyone else has put here.

- Merlin/Kestrel - workable tacklers
- Harpy - awesome
- Crow - awesome
- Kitsune - admittedly wouldn't fly this if someone else hadn't got it for me but it worked nicely
- Blackbird - epic
- Falcon/Rook - even more so
- Cerberus - <3
- Drake - not much more to say
- All battleships - all got their own role which they excell at.

It's Gallente I feel sorry for. Lasers > blasters in nearly every way ftw.

Eragon Osala
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2009.10.17 11:42:00 - [46]
 

I'm Gallente, WTF do I care. Raise the roof!!!

scum. Rules! ;)

Darcia Engineris
Posted - 2009.10.17 11:52:00 - [47]
 

duchess your telling me in a month and 12 days u can fly all the ships u listed there?

u can fly falcon and rook?

after a month and 12 days?

credibility of post = 0

Dr Karsun
Gallente
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
Posted - 2009.10.17 12:06:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Darcia Engineris
duchess your telling me in a month and 12 days u can fly all the ships u listed there?

u can fly falcon and rook?

after a month and 12 days?

credibility of post = 0


Have you ever heard of something like an ALT? Even on the same account? :)

Deltaprimus
Shadow Legion.
Posted - 2009.10.17 12:12:00 - [49]
 

yeh of course but i want to see him back up his statement.

everything ive written in here can be backed up by proof. i would love to see the proof in that. some kill mails stuff like that. those ships are fleet ships which isnt what this argument is about. its about the fact weve been nerfed so hard and other races buffed so much that weve been unable to solo pvp for ages.

the fact is atm ccp are favouring amarr and neglecting gallente and caldari. min have a substantial boost coming up to make them track easier at high speeds almost 100% negating the speed nerf last year...

if gall drones get nerfed then it will be interesting to see how much they "troll" and "whine" cus for once they'll be on the receiving end.

Dr Karsun
Gallente
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
Posted - 2009.10.17 12:20:00 - [50]
 

Well I'm afraid ECM drones will be nerfed for sure, I won't whine about that.

And surely something has to be done about the drones, but if not, sure, there will be a use for them, that will always be additional damage. But DPS to SP spent, drones are probably at the far end, aren't they?

PVPing solo is not easy, it's just harder and it's good. A bs shouldn't be flexibile, it can fight cruisers and other bs and bigger stuff, but against frigs it should have a really big problem. and it has. Everything is right here, there shouldn't ever be the ultimate solo pvp ship that everybody uses when they are looking for a fight solo. You have to try, try many things.

And well, there was caldari love once, amarr love now, minamtar got loved and all gallente get is this lousy fleet animation flying on the EVE main page :D

Lodan
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.10.17 12:46:00 - [51]
 

CALDARI SUCK, END OF DISCUSSION.

Washell Olivaw
Posted - 2009.10.17 13:09:00 - [52]
 

Confirming that OP suffers from "grass is greener on the other side" mentality coupled with EFT DPS comparing without regards for the effects of tracking, optimal and falloff.

First key to winning a battle is knowing you're going to win. You lose because you think you're flying underpowered ships.

Kaya Divine
Gallente
Kittens Factory
Posted - 2009.10.17 14:18:00 - [53]
 

Well I started as gallente, cross trained to caldari, and now I`m using drones for every target which is under BC size...irony.


All missiles really need some love.

And If I`m not mistaken caldari is only race which have BS (rokh) which don`t use racial weapon-missiles, and scorpion with failed ECM bonus.
Why don`t any other race don`t whine that they want BS missile platform?
Because missiles are rather useless in PvP and after nerf, at least 60% players which did use missile boats for PvE are now in BSs of other races, but mostly in amarr.

I would love to see that CCP give some love to missiles.

/support





159Pinky
Trans-Solar Works
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2009.10.17 14:33:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Shas Shadow

You are basically forced to fill you meds with shield mods because they give very low amount of buffer, the same things you put on cruisers have to be put on battleships, as said before there must be something as a 1600mm plate for shields.

Also ECM unlike the other forms of ewar (not counting warp core stabs) can be countered, why not making an active module that can counter sensor damp, scram, web, tp, and so on?

Caldari is certainly underpowered except for a few select scenarios. If you could shield tank on lows or if the mods actually matched the needs of a battleship and other large ships there would be much more caldari in pvp, and they would be less then easy prey.


Active module to counter sensor damp is called Sensor Booster with a Range / Resolution script.
The reason I no longer fly caldari ships is that my alliance favors armor tanking over shield tanking. The reason a shield buffer is not as high as an armor buffer is the shield regen. Just put an active tank on your raven if you wanna solo pvp, buffer tank is only good when you're in fleet ( or have a massive armor buffer ). Keep in mind that armor tankers need to sacrifice tank for dmg, as shield tanker you don't have to do that, you sacrifice a point / web / speedmod for tank. If you think that's not fair: a bs isn't a tackler, it can tackle but if you want to tackle someone use an inty. If you wanna do dmg use the bs. If you wanna solo pvp you'll need to sacrifice something, don't like it: don't fly solo.

Uncle Smokey
Posted - 2009.10.17 14:55:00 - [55]
 

points for emorage and losing yo face, my fried.

Cisse La'merget
Carebear Poachers plc
Posted - 2009.10.17 16:49:00 - [56]
 

- Crow is one of the best interceptors;
- Harpy is one of the best AFs;
- Kitsune is the best Ewar Frig;
- Blackbird is the most useful t1 cruiser;
- Drake has a near unbreakable tank, and does pretty mad DPS with skills;
- Falcon & Rook are still amongst the best recons;
- Eagle has the most range of any HAC;
- Rokh is one of the best snipers;
- Manticore is the most easy to fit bomber;
- And you have the best PvE ships.

You have, perhaps, more viable ships than any other race.

Stop complaining.

darius mclever
Posted - 2009.10.17 17:00:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: darius mclever on 17/10/2009 17:03:09
Originally by: Cisse La'merget
- Crow is one of the best interceptors;
- Harpy is one of the best AFs;
- Kitsune is the best Ewar Frig;
- Blackbird is the most useful t1 cruiser;
- Drake has a near unbreakable tank, and does pretty mad DPS with skills;
- Falcon & Rook are still amongst the best recons;
- Eagle has the most range of any HAC;
- Rokh is one of the best snipers;
- Manticore is the most easy to fit bomber;
- And you have the best PvE ships.

You have, perhaps, more viable ships than any other race.

Stop complaining.


- Cerberus also one of the best sniper
- Caracal is also a nice cruiser if you stay at range.

most caldari ships really benefit from staying at range and deal damage. i am always happy that i can just stay out while other races have to go close range.

except for the 700dps/70k EHP ham drake. that thing rocks close range ;)

<3 drake


i can just agree. stop complaining.

Gamrikis
Posted - 2009.10.17 17:04:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Gamrikis on 17/10/2009 17:04:14
*rolls eyes and hands out razor blades.

It is unfortunate that the most sold ships in game is Caldari, I wonder why it is the most sold? The unfortunate part is that everyone and their dog flys one and that makes it the largest group in eve. Which in turn brings us to the unfortunate whining by people who have no f****** Idea what they are doing in pvp. I am not open to debate on how you should fly your ship, I am stating that there are ALOT of corporations and solo power houses out there that do very well flying Caldari ships.

To the OP, seriously did you think that many in eve besides your mates would agree to get in on this idea and overpower Caldari ships?


Deltaprimus
Shadow Legion.
Posted - 2009.10.17 17:42:00 - [59]
 

im beggining to think that 9 out of 10 people here like the sound of their own voice. Some of you really done knot your A** from your elbow.

You give these lists of whats good and whats not. Compare those lists to the the equivalent list in say the minmattar race. What do you get? those caldari ships get stamped on. Get unbiased. Support the idea help caldari get back on the map as far as not being a joke in solo pvp and then we can move on to not getting drones nerfed causing the gallente not to whine and justly so!

Koltranx
Posted - 2009.10.17 17:57:00 - [60]
 

The drake stomps any Minmatar ship BC and down so shut your hole. Hell a sleip has a tough time beating it.

You sir are whining with out any (real data) to back up your tears.


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