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Epegi Givo
Amarr
Department of Redundancy Dpt.
Posted - 2009.10.12 22:17:00 - [1]
 

First some background. China is cutting off a lot of right to their citizens, something that us Americans do not like, because we are very pro-freedom.

Second, America is in a very heavy economic downfall.

Third, America imports a lot of goods from China.

So what do we do?

The president announces that 2 years from now, heavy tariffs will be placed on goods coming from china.

He then announces that anyone who makes goods here in America instead of importing foreign goods will get a bonus of some sorts.

What this accomplishes:

Making these goods will require laborers, which will put most of the unemployed back into service.

We will stop throwing so much money at China, which will force them to be more self-sufficient, which will make them have to educate their children and let them become business owners, thus making China more capitalistic.

Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
Posted - 2009.10.12 22:50:00 - [2]
 

Support subversive groups in China and watch it destroy itself internally.

I guess that would be support terrorism and since we're now at war with terrorism this is a no-go.

China just sat back and let the world tie their own hands.

baltec1
Posted - 2009.10.12 22:59:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: baltec1 on 12/10/2009 23:00:25
China then demands all the cash that it bailed out the USA with to be returned and stops all loans thus bankrupting the USA.

Horza Gelian
GangBangers
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2009.10.13 00:37:00 - [4]
 

I've seen something like this posted before, it's a chain mail right?

Anyway onto the content. With my limited understanding of economics this sounds like an utterly stupid and knee jerk reaction to the current climate. Sourcing more low level manufacturing in your own country will increase the price you'll pay for items you take for grated in your consumerist lifestyle.
Or maybe you or whoever wrote this is from the middle classes where an increase in cost in certain areas won't matter too much as they already have a nice disposable income and a secure job? What happens to those on lower incomes? Even with all the supposed generated jobs, if the price of goods out grows peoples ability to spend those wages on them means bugger all.
Capitalism works in part because it can outsource to countries like China and India. Those items can be made cheaply for mass consumption in more 'wealthy' countries. Higher wages and minimum wage laws would make this impractical, unless you'd like that scrapped as well?

As to China becoming more Capitalistic? In the Special Economic Zones, I'd say they're very Capitalistic.

And to the opening statement, what the **** has that got to do with economic reforms? Civil liberties aren't limited because of some economic agenda, it's because the government are totalitarian Maoists.
Ah yes I get it, make them seem like the bad guy to Americas 'Pro-Freedom' image, because they've not been hit so hard by this crisis. There wasn't a problem when there was an endless supply of cheap consumer goods before the cakky hit the fan. No one really gave a toss then about the average Chinese citizens civil liberties did they?

I thought Socialism was a dirty word in the US? Because what your talking about in regard to incentives for in house manufacturing are subsidies. I thought that went against Capitalist principles? Tariffs on imported goods sounds like it's going against the Capitalist / Globalism doctrine the US are proponents of?

Am I also reading this right, you believe that because they're Maoist that they're uneducated? Yeah there probably are a lot of uneducated people, but look at your own country as well.

America, along with most of the rest of the world is in an econmic slump because people made alot of stupid, questionable and far reaching mistakes. It's happened before, it'll happen again get over it. It's inherent in the Capitalist system, the good times will come again and someone will get greedy and wreck it all.

Sorry for the wall of text, I was having fun! It's not a very coherent rant, but it's 1:30am and it's been a long day. If this turns out to be a troll, I fell hook line and sinker. But the points still stand for those out there who believe in the points rasied in the OP.

Antiseptic
Posted - 2009.10.13 06:47:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Antiseptic on 13/10/2009 06:48:58
Originally by: Horza Gelian
I've seen something like this posted before, it's a chain mail right?

Anyway onto the content. With my limited understanding of economics this sounds like an utterly stupid and knee jerk reaction to the current climate. Sourcing more low level manufacturing in your own country will increase the price you'll pay for items you take for grated in your consumerist lifestyle.
Or maybe you or whoever wrote this is from the middle classes where an increase in cost in certain areas won't matter too much as they already have a nice disposable income and a secure job? What happens to those on lower incomes? Even with all the supposed generated jobs, if the price of goods out grows peoples ability to spend those wages on them means bugger all.
Capitalism works in part because it can outsource to countries like China and India. Those items can be made cheaply for mass consumption in more 'wealthy' countries. Higher wages and minimum wage laws would make this impractical, unless you'd like that scrapped as well?

As to China becoming more Capitalistic? In the Special Economic Zones, I'd say they're very Capitalistic.

And to the opening statement, what the **** has that got to do with economic reforms? Civil liberties aren't limited because of some economic agenda, it's because the government are totalitarian Maoists.
Ah yes I get it, make them seem like the bad guy to Americas 'Pro-Freedom' image, because they've not been hit so hard by this crisis. There wasn't a problem when there was an endless supply of cheap consumer goods before the cakky hit the fan. No one really gave a toss then about the average Chinese citizens civil liberties did they?

I thought Socialism was a dirty word in the US? Because what your talking about in regard to incentives for in house manufacturing are subsidies. I thought that went against Capitalist principles? Tariffs on imported goods sounds like it's going against the Capitalist / Globalism doctrine the US are proponents of?

Am I also reading this right, you believe that because they're Maoist that they're uneducated? Yeah there probably are a lot of uneducated people, but look at your own country as well.

America, along with most of the rest of the world is in an econmic slump because people made alot of stupid, questionable and far reaching mistakes. It's happened before, it'll happen again get over it. It's inherent in the Capitalist system, the good times will come again and someone will get greedy and wreck it all.

Sorry for the wall of text, I was having fun! It's not a very coherent rant, but it's 1:30am and it's been a long day. If this turns out to be a troll, I fell hook line and sinker. But the points still stand for those out there who believe in the points rasied in the OP.


I could learn a lot from this guy Shocked sure you're not a lobbyist Laughing No but really it seems like western civilization is gonna end up screwing itself just a matter of time.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.10.13 08:26:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Epegi Givo
First some background. China is cutting off a lot of right to their citizens, something that us Americans do not like, because we are very pro-freedom.

Second, America is in a very heavy economic downfall.

Third, America imports a lot of goods from China.

So what do we do?

The president announces that 2 years from now, heavy tariffs will be placed on goods coming from china.

He then announces that anyone who makes goods here in America instead of importing foreign goods will get a bonus of some sorts.

What this accomplishes:

Making these goods will require laborers, which will put most of the unemployed back into service.

We will stop throwing so much money at China, which will force them to be more self-sufficient, which will make them have to educate their children and let them become business owners, thus making China more capitalistic.


Yeah, you might want to read up on how the Great Depression started off. Hint: "look up Smoot-Hawley"

Wuff Wuff
The Oliver Postgate Appreciation Club
Posted - 2009.10.13 11:49:00 - [7]
 

I'd be willing to bet that in the coming years, the US may not have the same influence over Chinese/global trade that you're seeing at the moment:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/the-demise-of-the-dollar-1798175.html

- Wuffles

Xen Gin
Silurian Operations
Posted - 2009.10.13 12:42:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Wuff Wuff
I'd be willing to bet that in the coming years, the US may not have the same influence over Chinese/global trade that you're seeing at the moment:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/the-demise-of-the-dollar-1798175.html

- Wuffles



I have been thinking a move to Euros for us Brits seems to be more palatable.

Jacob Mei
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.13 16:45:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Wendat Huron
Support subversive groups in China and watch it destroy itself internally.

I guess that would be support terrorism and since we're now at war with terrorism this is a no-go.



We're overtly opposed to terrorism. Covertly on the other hand who knows. Its all a matter of perspective... and if you get caught.

Drunk Driver
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.10.13 16:52:00 - [10]
 



BUY MORE STUFF FROM WAL-MART!


goodby4u
Valor Inc.
Valor Empire
Posted - 2009.10.13 17:10:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: goodby4u on 13/10/2009 17:12:28
Originally by: baltec1
Edited by: baltec1 on 12/10/2009 23:00:25
China then demands all the cash that it bailed out the USA with to be returned and stops all loans thus bankrupting the USA.
The problem is they do not have the muscle to force us to pay such loans, however if people see us not paying loans our dollar will tank so....

You proclaim china is a terrorist state and proclaim that we do not support terrorists... It isn't true however it would save our dollar and cut china off at the same time.

As for the OP, tariffs can be bad, they bring up the cost for the average consumer and ends up hurting the country... So the solution that doesn't include tariffs and cuts china off I would support. Very Happy

Mr Reeth
Posted - 2009.10.13 17:30:00 - [12]
 

What is all this crap? Oh noes we must stop China from ruling da world! If they get too rich we'll have no place to send our toxic waste!

So what if Europe and America are no longer in charge of the world? About ****ing time I say. I welcome our new Chinese overlords!

baltec1
Posted - 2009.10.13 17:35:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: goodby4u
Edited by: goodby4u on 13/10/2009 17:12:28
Originally by: baltec1
Edited by: baltec1 on 12/10/2009 23:00:25
China then demands all the cash that it bailed out the USA with to be returned and stops all loans thus bankrupting the USA.
The problem is they do not have the muscle to force us to pay such loans, however if people see us not paying loans our dollar will tank so....




China's military might is at least your equal if not greater and a lot of it is rather advanced.

Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
Posted - 2009.10.13 17:39:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Mr Reeth
What is all this crap? Oh noes we must stop China from ruling da world! If they get too rich we'll have no place to send our toxic waste!

So what if Europe and America are no longer in charge of the world? About ****ing time I say. I welcome our new Chinese overlords!


Better dead than red.

goodby4u
Valor Inc.
Valor Empire
Posted - 2009.10.13 18:18:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: goodby4u on 13/10/2009 18:23:18
Edited by: goodby4u on 13/10/2009 18:18:00
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: goodby4u
Edited by: goodby4u on 13/10/2009 17:12:28
Originally by: baltec1
Edited by: baltec1 on 12/10/2009 23:00:25
China then demands all the cash that it bailed out the USA with to be returned and stops all loans thus bankrupting the USA.
The problem is they do not have the muscle to force us to pay such loans, however if people see us not paying loans our dollar will tank so....




China's military might is at least your equal if not greater and a lot of it is rather advanced.
Our navy and airforce dwarf theirs technologically, and if you don't own the air or sea your fighting a losing war.

Chinese airforce

US airforce

Chinese navy

US navy

Sure they can defend their country with their army, however they would be unable to mount any kind of assault on the US.

ceaon
Posted - 2009.10.13 18:30:00 - [16]
 

why bother whit that when u get nukes geeeeez

goodby4u
Valor Inc.
Valor Empire
Posted - 2009.10.13 18:32:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: ceaon
why bother whit that when u get nukes geeeeez
Because of MAD, unless china is threatened by complete annihilation they wont be pushing that button against a western country... Same goes with America.

Ofcourse with our current course it would be likely to see space based anti nuclear devices being setup and such a conventional war become more of a reality.

ceaon
Posted - 2009.10.13 18:49:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: goodby4u
Originally by: ceaon
why bother whit that when u get nukes geeeeez
Because of MAD, unless china is threatened by complete annihilation they wont be pushing that button against a western country... Same goes with America.

Ofcourse with our current course it would be likely to see space based anti nuclear devices being setup and such a conventional war become more of a reality.

china got few ppl to decide compared to USA
also stuff like this are interesting

if i was some kind of dictator and had this **** load of nuclear weapons i just send a ambassador to say on a UN conference "each country on this planet have 1 hour to ban any economic whit XXX country or u get a missile" then go live on TV and say "i bring you the apocalypse" and press the red button

just sick of the "hey look i got a bigger pistol now STFU" and compete to show the "bigger pistol" just ****ing use the thing this seams like "my epeen is bigger that yours"

goodby4u
Valor Inc.
Valor Empire
Posted - 2009.10.13 18:55:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: goodby4u on 13/10/2009 18:56:50
Originally by: ceaon
Originally by: goodby4u
Originally by: ceaon
why bother whit that when u get nukes geeeeez
Because of MAD, unless china is threatened by complete annihilation they wont be pushing that button against a western country... Same goes with America.

Ofcourse with our current course it would be likely to see space based anti nuclear devices being setup and such a conventional war become more of a reality.

china got few ppl to decide compared to USA
also stuff like this are interesting

if i was some kind of dictator and had this **** load of nuclear weapons i just send a ambassador to say on a UN conference "each country on this planet have 1 hour to ban any economic whit XXX country or u get a missile" then go live on TV and say "i bring you the apocalypse" and press the red button

just sick of the "hey look i got a bigger pistol now STFU" and compete to show the "bigger pistol" just ****ing use the thing this seams like "my epeen is bigger that yours"

Ofcourse then they would counterattack with their own nukes.... It is foolproof until somebody jumps the gun I suppose.

As far as bigger gun thing, with conventional weapons this does matter as your comparing weapons that effect meters.... However when you have enough nukes to destroy the world 10-20 times over it ceases to matter.

Which is all the more reason why to cut off china and say they are terrorists and dance while you don't have to pay your loans back.

Thorliaron
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.10.13 19:07:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: goodby4u
Edited by: goodby4u on 13/10/2009 18:23:18
Edited by: goodby4u on 13/10/2009 18:18:00
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: goodby4u
Edited by: goodby4u on 13/10/2009 17:12:28
Originally by: baltec1
Edited by: baltec1 on 12/10/2009 23:00:25
China then demands all the cash that it bailed out the USA with to be returned and stops all loans thus bankrupting the USA.
The problem is they do not have the muscle to force us to pay such loans, however if people see us not paying loans our dollar will tank so....




China's military might is at least your equal if not greater and a lot of it is rather advanced.
Our navy and airforce dwarf theirs technologically, and if you don't own the air or sea your fighting a losing war.

Chinese airforce

US airforce

Chinese navy

US navy

Sure they can defend their country with their army, however they would be unable to mount any kind of assault on the US.


Man didn't you learn anything from the Germans, better tech does not win you wars, cheap and effective tech does.

ceaon
Posted - 2009.10.13 19:08:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: goodby4u

Ofcourse then they would counterattack with their own nukes.... It is foolproof until somebody jumps the gun I suppose.

As far as bigger gun thing, with conventional weapons this does matter as your comparing weapons that effect meters.... However when you have enough nukes to destroy the world 10-20 times over it ceases to matter.

will counter attacked country's that have nukes
like i said you use nuke to get a economic superiority or most of the planet die, if you dont care to die (you die at a point) and how many ppl die (after a time they will die also) this is a no lose position, is just like "you all do what i say or we are doomed"

why spend some much resources in air-force, warships, carriers, spy networks etc etc
most of this "guns" are stock piled when become obsolete because a corporation design a better version and take again money from ppl TAX

baltec1
Posted - 2009.10.13 19:09:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: goodby4u
Edited by: goodby4u on 13/10/2009 18:23:18
Edited by: goodby4u on 13/10/2009 18:18:00
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: goodby4u
Edited by: goodby4u on 13/10/2009 17:12:28
Originally by: baltec1
Edited by: baltec1 on 12/10/2009 23:00:25
China then demands all the cash that it bailed out the USA with to be returned and stops all loans thus bankrupting the USA.
The problem is they do not have the muscle to force us to pay such loans, however if people see us not paying loans our dollar will tank so....




China's military might is at least your equal if not greater and a lot of it is rather advanced.
Our navy and airforce dwarf theirs technologically, and if you don't own the air or sea your fighting a losing war.

Chinese airforce

US airforce

Chinese navy

US navy

Sure they can defend their country with their army, however they would be unable to mount any kind of assault on the US.


Chinese forces could infiltrate the US mainland and engage in a gurrilla style war and it can use its long range missile subs to deal some hurt and the new migs are no pushover. The USA has not fought a war against a well equiped army for a very long time now and people seem to forget that a mig can carry very effective anti ship missiles.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2009.10.13 19:14:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Wendat Huron
Support subversive groups in China and watch it destroy itself internally.

I guess that would be support terrorism and since we're now at war with terrorism this is a no-go.

China just sat back and let the world tie their own hands.


disrupting communism isn't terrorism, it is the patriotic thing to do!

Captain Hudson
Caldari
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2009.10.13 19:14:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: goodby4u
Edited by: goodby4u on 13/10/2009 17:12:28
Originally by: baltec1
Edited by: baltec1 on 12/10/2009 23:00:25
China then demands all the cash that it bailed out the USA with to be returned and stops all loans thus bankrupting the USA.
The problem is they do not have the muscle to force us to pay such loans, however if people see us not paying loans our dollar will tank so....

You proclaim china is a terrorist state and proclaim that we do not support terrorists... It isn't true however it would save our dollar and cut china off at the same time.

As for the OP, tariffs can be bad, they bring up the cost for the average consumer and ends up hurting the country... So the solution that doesn't include tariffs and cuts china off I would support. Very Happy


In the real world that would never work, Europeans would still want their tv's and therefore ignore said claims. China could quite happily function without America.

goodby4u
Valor Inc.
Valor Empire
Posted - 2009.10.13 19:23:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: goodby4u on 13/10/2009 19:32:28
Edited by: goodby4u on 13/10/2009 19:29:00
Originally by: Thorliaron

Man didn't you learn anything from the Germans, better tech does not win you wars, cheap and effective tech does.
Germany did not lose because they chose impressive tech, they lost due to stupid tactics, overspreading too quickly and a bad command structure with a senile overlord at the lead.

Germany and it's allies made a ton of mistakes during the war, their biggest one was attacking russia and second biggest mistake was attempting to get to moscow in one year with summer gear.

As far as their tech goes, two things you haven't realized.

1)German factories were being destroyed while American factories were untouched, therefore America was able to build more tanks then germany.

2)Germany's tanks were by in large not mass produced, whereas America's current technology is mass produced just the same as any other country's tech today.

I could just as easily say that Germany's advancement and ability to take on all of Europe at the same time was a result of their better tech.


"Chinese forces could infiltrate the US mainland and engage in a gurrilla style war and it can use its long range missile subs to deal some hurt and the new migs are no pushover. The USA has not fought a war against a well equiped army for a very long time now and people seem to forget that a mig can carry very effective anti ship missiles."

I suppose they could, though I also suppose we could get their general public to rise up against their government... Why else would America have green berets and the cia?

America has more subs and these subs are also higher tech, between the two ours would win... Though if you mean nuke subs then well nobody wins.

The su 27 and su 30 flankers are good aircraft, however the su 30 is proportional to the f15e and nothing more, we have more f15s then they do su30s... Not to mention we have f22s.




"In the real world that would never work, Europeans would still want their tv's and therefore ignore said claims. China could quite happily function without America."

America is their biggest costumer, let me make an analogy.

You have 3 costumers to your doughnut stand, 2 skinny people that show up every other week for one, then you have the ****** that shows up daily for a dozen... You **** off the ****** and he doesn't come around anymore, what happens?

Their economy would decline as a result. Now I am sure they could come out of it, but it would be devastating to say the least.

baltec1
Posted - 2009.10.13 20:18:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: baltec1 on 13/10/2009 20:20:35
Originally by: goodby4u



"Chinese forces could infiltrate the US mainland and engage in a gurrilla style war and it can use its long range missile subs to deal some hurt and the new migs are no pushover. The USA has not fought a war against a well equiped army for a very long time now and people seem to forget that a mig can carry very effective anti ship missiles."

I suppose they could, though I also suppose we could get their general public to rise up against their government... Why else would America have green berets and the cia?

America has more subs and these subs are also higher tech, between the two ours would win... Though if you mean nuke subs then well nobody wins.

The su 27 and su 30 flankers are good aircraft, however the su 30 is proportional to the f15e and nothing more, we have more f15s then they do su30s... Not to mention we have f22s.




We had sub sonic harriers take out supersonic jets in the falklands so just because your jets are more advanced doesnt mean you will automaticaly winWink

But in all honestly all China would need to do is stop the cash flowing into America and it would have them on their knees.

ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Underworld Protection Agency
South Pole Dancers
Posted - 2009.10.13 20:33:00 - [27]
 

Don't antagonise the Chinese. They're big, scary, and they make lots of shiny toys which western countries like to purchase.

Also, I'm fairly sure you could fill a library with economic theory and history explaining exactly why overly protectionist trade policies like the OP's do not work.

Faekurias
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2009.10.13 20:36:00 - [28]
 

When I was in china I talked to some of the dudes there. They seem to consider themselves a shade of purple. Socialistic semi(pseudo :V)-capitalism.
Then again, they considered my country (Sweden) to be purple aswell. v0v

goodby4u
Valor Inc.
Valor Empire
Posted - 2009.10.13 20:48:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Edited by: baltec1 on 13/10/2009 20:20:35
Originally by: goodby4u



"Chinese forces could infiltrate the US mainland and engage in a gurrilla style war and it can use its long range missile subs to deal some hurt and the new migs are no pushover. The USA has not fought a war against a well equiped army for a very long time now and people seem to forget that a mig can carry very effective anti ship missiles."

I suppose they could, though I also suppose we could get their general public to rise up against their government... Why else would America have green berets and the cia?

America has more subs and these subs are also higher tech, between the two ours would win... Though if you mean nuke subs then well nobody wins.

The su 27 and su 30 flankers are good aircraft, however the su 30 is proportional to the f15e and nothing more, we have more f15s then they do su30s... Not to mention we have f22s.




We had sub sonic harriers take out supersonic jets in the falklands so just because your jets are more advanced doesnt mean you will automaticaly winWink

But in all honestly all China would need to do is stop the cash flowing into America and it would have them on their knees.
Assuming both soldiers are trained just as much, which wins a musket or an m16?

Ofcourse there are situations where the musket will win by pure chance, but what the extra tech gives you is a better chance.... However an f22 going up against a su30 would be laughable at best, the su30 would not even be able to see the f22 before it is shot out of the sky.

Hell on my airforce base we had a test between a novice f22 pilot and 4 veteran fe15 eagle pilots and the f22 danced all over them.

Cashflow to america? China doesn't buy things from America, hell America doesn't export very much as it is.

baltec1
Posted - 2009.10.13 21:10:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: goodby4u



Assuming both soldiers are trained just as much, which wins a musket or an m16?

Ofcourse there are situations where the musket will win by pure chance, but what the extra tech gives you is a better chance.... However an f22 going up against a su30 would be laughable at best, the su30 would not even be able to see the f22 before it is shot out of the sky.

Hell on my airforce base we had a test between a novice f22 pilot and 4 veteran fe15 eagle pilots and the f22 danced all over them.

Cashflow to america? China doesn't buy things from America, hell America doesn't export very much as it is.


A harrier is a little more advanced than a musket and unlike your example, mine happened and the harriers won. Plus, the only thing keeping your country going is loans from china at the moment. They stop the cash you run out, you refuse to pay china back then nobody will loan to you.


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