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Tesal
Posted - 2009.10.15 17:26:00 - [241]
 

Edited by: Tesal on 15/10/2009 17:50:16
Edited by: Tesal on 15/10/2009 17:36:00
Originally by: Ambo
So you're saying that KIA said they would guarantee the loan. But then refused to pay it back. This loss was a big part of why withdrawls and interest were frozen. Yet there are still high-level KIA members on the board...

So Ebank depositors are paying for KIA's ****up of allowing a new corp to borrow and wonder off with 250 bil odd isk. All the while, Ebank is paying high-level KIA members billions of isk for their work with Ebank.

Not really surprising that people are a bit ****ed off about this is it?


Who knows what actually happened. I don't even know that they have the BPO. Here is what we do know though. They were enemies, then suddenly became friends. Then KIA backed a loan that gave them hundreds of billions of isk. Divine Power still likes KIA and gives them cap ship discounts, lives in their former space with the people they set up to own it.

*edit
Originally by: McKinlay
Originally by: Tesal


No conspiracy here, right? People still believe that?

By the way, Gnarrkilly appears to have been kicked from PL.


Sorry to briefly interupt your foamy mouthed internet conspiracy theories but as I already posted earlier the character Gnarrkilly is now owned by me, and was dropped from PL by me while I do some account consilodation as I wanted to stop training Sir Molle and put him on the same account as KIAEddz.

Carry on.


See what you did. -> Crying or Very sad

If its you, they should kick you too just to be sure, then pod you back to being a newb.

*edit
I read your earlier post. Show me a link to the character transfer. And why did you end up back in his alt corp then if its yours. Unless he transferred it to you without using CCP, and you are admitting to that.

McKinlay
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.10.15 18:22:00 - [242]
 

Originally by: Tesal
Divine Power still likes KIA and gives them cap ship discounts, lives in their former space with the people they set up to own it.


Originally by: Tesal

I read your earlier post. Show me a link to the character transfer. And why did you end up back in his alt corp then if its yours. Unless he transferred it to you without using CCP, and you are admitting to that.


I see the limit of your knowledge extends to right click show info and not much else. Good luck with the dectective business Sherlock, though I'd keep the farm for now, just in case.

Adios.

Tesal
Posted - 2009.10.15 18:57:00 - [243]
 

Edited by: Tesal on 15/10/2009 19:13:55
Edited by: Tesal on 15/10/2009 19:09:06
Originally by: McKinlay
Originally by: Tesal
Divine Power still likes KIA and gives them cap ship discounts, lives in their former space with the people they set up to own it.


Originally by: Tesal

I read your earlier post. Show me a link to the character transfer. And why did you end up back in his alt corp then if its yours. Unless he transferred it to you without using CCP, and you are admitting to that.


I see the limit of your knowledge extends to right click show info and not much else. Good luck with the dectective business Sherlock, though I'd keep the farm for now, just in case.

Adios.


This is basic stuff that I am doing here, and the most obvious, surprisingly, no one bothered to look it seems and ask these questions.

You didn't answer my question though, because there is no record of your character transfer, and yet you claim your character was transferred. Maybe you are telling the truth. In which case, enjoy your ban.

*edit
Enjoy this from the character bazaar rules.
Quote:
11. The selling of accounts is prohibited, characters may only be sold individually.
16. All scams involving character transfers are prohibited.


*edit
I also use Google and Eve-search. So there!

Dzil
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2009.10.15 19:05:00 - [244]
 

Originally by: Tesal

stuff
...
You didn't answer my question though, because there is no record of your character transfer, and yet you claim your character was transferred. Maybe you are telling the truth. In which case, enjoy your ban.


Question


Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.10.15 19:09:00 - [245]
 

Originally by: Tesal

You didn't answer my question though, because there is no record of your character transfer, and yet you claim your character was transferred. Maybe you are telling the truth. In which case, enjoy your ban.


You know, it doesn't say anywhere that you have to record your character transfers on these message boards.

Just that you pay the $20 tax.

Lecherito
Posted - 2009.10.15 19:40:00 - [246]
 

This thread has lost it's way to the point of tediousness. Ray we need another drama bomb, damnt!

-L

Tesal
Posted - 2009.10.15 20:28:00 - [247]
 

Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: Tesal

You didn't answer my question though, because there is no record of your character transfer, and yet you claim your character was transferred. Maybe you are telling the truth. In which case, enjoy your ban.


You know, it doesn't say anywhere that you have to record your character transfers on these message boards.

Just that you pay the $20 tax.


True. I checked my time frame, I have a gap in my spread sheet for his Viziam trip before PL. My bad.

That said, there are 2 possible time frames for a transfer. Both lead back to someone involved with this scam. KIA leadership has the information on his identity. As does the buyer. So he is either involved in the scam, or bought the character from someone involved in the scam. He already tried to launder the character once. Who is to say he didn't do it again. If it was private, he obviously knew the person, or it was arranged through mutual friends.

So when did he buy him then? Who did he buy it from?

Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.10.15 20:30:00 - [248]
 

Originally by: Tesal

True. I checked my time frame, I have a gap in my spread sheet for his Viziam trip before PL. My bad.

That said, there are 2 possible time frames for a transfer. Both lead back to someone involved with this scam. KIA leadership has the information on his identity. As does the buyer. So he is either involved in the scam, or bought the character from someone involved in the scam. He already tried to launder the character once. Who is to say he didn't do it again. If it was private, he obviously knew the person, or it was arranged through mutual friends.

So when did he buy him then? Who did he buy it from?


I'm obviously not privy to your information, but within the larger alliances transfers happen all the time.

Tesal
Posted - 2009.10.15 20:44:00 - [249]
 

Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: Tesal

True. I checked my time frame, I have a gap in my spread sheet for his Viziam trip before PL. My bad.

That said, there are 2 possible time frames for a transfer. Both lead back to someone involved with this scam. KIA leadership has the information on his identity. As does the buyer. So he is either involved in the scam, or bought the character from someone involved in the scam. He already tried to launder the character once. Who is to say he didn't do it again. If it was private, he obviously knew the person, or it was arranged through mutual friends.

So when did he buy him then? Who did he buy it from?


I'm obviously not privy to your information, but within the larger alliances transfers happen all the time.


McKinlay would have some insight on that. He isn't saying anything other than "I am Sparticus". That is why I am posing the question.

McKinlay
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.10.15 21:30:00 - [250]
 

This might be the last post I can make with any account, and even this post might get deleted before anyone can read it. Please if you see this save it and repost it here. People have the right to know what is going on.

I just received an email from [removed] right to the very highest echelon [removed] goo....not safe...[removed]

SentryRaven
KIA Corporation
Zenith Affinity
Posted - 2009.10.16 07:40:00 - [251]
 

Originally by: McKinlay
This might be the last post I can make with any account, and even this post might get deleted before anyone can read it. Please if you see this save it and repost it here. People have the right to know what is going on.

I just received an email from [removed] right to the very highest echelon [removed] goo....not safe...[removed]


McKinlay!..... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO~

Quote:
2009.10.16 23:61

Victim: McKinlay
Corp: The Illuminati.
Alliance: Pandemic Legion
Faction: Calamari
Destroyed: All Accounts
System: Tranquility
Security: 10.0
Damage Taken: Over 9000

Involved parties:

Name: The Angry Mob / MD

Name: Detective Tesal / MD

Name: The GM / CCP




Rest in Pieces, mate.... rest in pieces.....

Gabriel Virtus
hirr
Posted - 2009.10.19 06:54:00 - [252]
 

Originally by: Hexxx
Through recorded history, people have sought to explain things they don't understand. They try to draw conclusions and link events together to come up with something that "makes sense". Coincidences can no longer be coincidences, but must be part of some grander design or purpose.

In modern RL pop culture this takes the form of trashy magazines and gossip web sites.

In EVE, you can see some rather obvious examples of it in this thread.


Gee, and to think I thought this was where religion came from? Hmm. Thanks for that clarification.

Clearly, none of these events have anything to do with each other. It is by pure coincidence that any event in life (or EVE) happens and they are never connected. I see what you did there Hexxx, this is called a logical fallacy. Maybe we should shoot for ad hominem next?

-GV

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2009.10.19 07:13:00 - [253]
 

Originally by: Gabriel Virtus


Clearly, none of these events have anything to do with each other. It is by pure coincidence that any event in life (or EVE) happens and they are never connected. I see what you did there Hexxx, this is called a logical fallacy. Maybe we should shoot for ad hominem next?



I don't exactly agree that there's any logical fallacy at all.

Hexxx is merely stating that people are making some rather bold(and often incorrect) assumptions in order to make sense of things. He also states that it's not exactly new, and that people do it all the time.

He's not saying that nothing is ever connected.

Take a step back and avoid assumptions, however logical they might seem. Nothing is ever as obvious as you think.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.10.19 11:00:00 - [254]
 

Quote:

Nothing is ever as obvious as you think



This should be the subtitle for this forum.

Hexxx
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.19 12:09:00 - [255]
 

Originally by: Gabriel Virtus

Clearly, none of these events have anything to do with each other. It is by pure coincidence that any event in life (or EVE) happens and they are never connected. I see what you did there Hexxx, this is called a logical fallacy. Maybe we should shoot for ad hominem next?

-GV


Straw Man.

Yeah, I can get cute too, the difference is that I'm better at it. Very Happy







Tesal
Posted - 2009.10.19 21:44:00 - [256]
 

One coincidence regarding a particular suspicious event with the same character is of no consequence. Two coincidences are noteworthy. Three coincidences is suspicious. More than three coincidences makes that a person of interest. Once you start getting into the 6 or 7 range, its still not as good as real evidence, but its enough to kill that person.

For example, Mr H coincidentally knows 2 of the largest RMTers in Eve, and coincidentally was is good friends with people involved with hundreds of billions of isk vanishing, and also coincidentally tried to steal isk from his corp as Ricdic did. He also coincidentally has been involved in straw character purchases to conceal the identity of characters. He also coincidentally was into faking logs and transmissions and lied to people all the time to cover his tracks. He also coincidentally is involved with the people who stole hundreds of billions in a loan scam.

Those are all coincidences. Its enough for me to say he is probably rotten to the core, and I judge his friends to be in the same camp, and I declare them all worthy of death. Thus I declare KIA and Mr H to be of the same mind, and equally guilty along with Ricdic. I also declare this to be a single crime, all of it together. I see no reason to believe otherwise.

Mr H has the ability to say what he knows right here in this forum. The other people involved also have that ability. They have the ability to kick him from his corp and name his alts. They can take steps to distance themselves from RMT and theft. They chose not to do that. If they truly purchased characters and did things in an upright way, and with good intentions, they can say who they bought characters from and when. Eddz can say everything he knows about the theft. None of them have chosen to participate, and rather have chosen to lock down as much information as possible on the topic so the perpetrators can escape without us being any the wiser. In essence, they have sided with the criminal. In this way they are all participating in this crime.

None of this is "proof" in a legal setting that people might understand in the West, but it is enough to get people hanged in a lot of countries, and its enough for a Jury positive jury verdict in a civil case in the West against KIA. This is measuring guilt by the teaspoon, not an all or nothing proposition. If people who are involved wish to be absolved of this crime, they can speak up about what they know and make a case. They have not chosen to do that when asked. They have yet to deny anything. Proof is not possible to come by in EvE except when people admit it typically. Not speaking up, is in itself a form of collusion. This is a bit of 'guilty until proven innocent' in the absence of their word and solid evidence, but since in EvE there is no direct punishment, and I can make up whatever standard I want, I say that ought to be the standard.

Kill them all. There is always the possibility I am wrong, but since when do I need a reason to kill people?

Gabriel Virtus
hirr
Posted - 2009.10.19 23:29:00 - [257]
 

Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 20/10/2009 02:08:36
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Gabriel Virtus


Clearly, none of these events have anything to do with each other. It is by pure coincidence that any event in life (or EVE) happens and they are never connected. I see what you did there Hexxx, this is called a logical fallacy. Maybe we should shoot for ad hominem next?



I don't exactly agree that there's any logical fallacy at all.

Hexxx is merely stating that people are making some rather bold(and often incorrect) assumptions in order to make sense of things. He also states that it's not exactly new, and that people do it all the time.

He's not saying that nothing is ever connected.

Take a step back and avoid assumptions, however logical they might seem. Nothing is ever as obvious as you think.


Look harder. Itís an obvious one. Judging by most of the statement I have seen you write about economics, I guess I am not surprised you cannot find it.

Everyone knows what Hexxx is trying to do. The problem is that there is a large blaring fallacy in his argument. His argument is farce and therefore bull****

Originally by: Hexxx

Straw Man.

Yeah, I can get cute too, the difference is that I'm better at it. Very Happy



Yes, I can confirm that I in no way was trying to point out how ridiculous your argument through an example and was merely stating an equally ridiculous argument. Yes, there is sarcasm somewhere in this sentence. I am clearly no match rofl.

btw, you just committed another one. Can you NAME THAT FALLACY?!

It is a fallacy of ambiguity, this particular is commonly called the straw man fallacy. I can be cute too, I am just better at it than you are. In general, this thread is full of such errors. This one was just glaring and ridiculous.

-GV

edit: I will give 10m to the person that can NAME THAT FALLACY!

RaWBLooD
Posted - 2009.10.20 01:03:00 - [258]
 

Hexxx is a cool guy and so are all the other people working to get things done here. Most of the people whining just want to harm better people than themselves in any way they think they can.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2009.10.20 01:10:00 - [259]
 

Originally by: RaWBLooD
Hexxx is a cool guy and so are all the other people working to get things done here.


I don't recall anyone saying they were not cool guys. Most of them were sucked into a bad deal and have to fix the mess they were left with.

Le Mare
Posted - 2009.10.20 01:23:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Tesal


Kill them all. There is always the possibility I am wrong, but since when do I need a reason to kill people?




SILENCE i keeeeel you!

McKinlay
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.10.20 01:42:00 - [261]
 

Originally by: Tesal
None of them have chosen to participate, and rather have chosen to lock down as much information as possible on the topic so the perpetrators can escape without us being any the wiser. In essence, they have sided with the criminal. In this way they are all participating in this crime.



Who is he? He is supposed to be Turkish. Some say his father was German. Nobody believed he was real. Nobody ever saw him or knew anybody that ever worked directly for him, but to hear Kobayashi tell it, anybody could have worked for him. You never knew. That was his power.

Charles Swann
Posted - 2009.10.20 12:57:00 - [262]
 

What's the total amount of outstanding loans issued to KIA? (not counting the big default, that's written off)

Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.10.20 14:18:00 - [263]
 

Originally by: Gabriel Virtus
This one was just glaring and ridiculous.




You're glaring and ridiculous.....and you grammar are the suck.


I know it doesn't seem as intelligent an argument since I'm not using the word "fallacy", but when I'm spewing bull**** I like to spread it around evenly.

Anastasia Heron
Amarr
Ricercar Astral Research
Posted - 2009.10.20 14:40:00 - [264]
 

Edited by: Anastasia Heron on 20/10/2009 14:58:57
Haven't been forumwatching lately, but I did want to add one thing (and I'm only on page two of this thread but I doubt it's been mentioned):

Ray said that my venture didn't return any profits for about six months. This is true. What he failed to mention is that I deducted those profits from my EBank account balance when I figured out how much the bank owed me (and yes, the bank owed me my deposits). So what I really walked away with was approximately 5.4b ISK, not the 10.5b as I think has been assumed. If Ray wants to call me out as a thief that's his perogative, but I'd appreciate the story being accurate. EDIT: just saw on page 6 where Ray mentioned this. Thank you.

Also I don't recall voting yes on the account freeze. Ray is right in that I wasn't active the past few months so if I did vote yes the freeze was already a fait accompli, as it surprised me as much as it did everyone else.

As for remaining on staff, it was something I'd have been happy to do, but after an unpleasant grilling by Ray on MSN it became apparent that that offer wasn't genuine. I confess I'm a better "worker bee" than I am "innovation bee", and Ray told me he could buy an army of alts to do grunt work. So that was that for me.

I apologize to all account holders for my selfish behavior; I did what many of you wish you could do but can't. That's pretty unfair. I'm still torn, in that I did the right thing for me but doubt it was the right thing overall. At the same time, it was my money that I took. So... Yeah.

Leneerra
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.10.20 15:01:00 - [265]
 

Anastasia Heron,

Ray already stated pretty much what you have proclaimed here yourself.
While I understand your choice I do not think taking your isk under the circumstances was appropriate.

In addittion, If I read your admission correctly you state that you:
- are unable to turn a decent profit with over 10B in public moneys over a period of at least 6 months
- were Uninformed about what was going on in the organisation where you were a board member.
- Feel little or ignore the responsibility for the situation, the organisation you were a part of, is in.

And you still manage to see yourself as a "worker bee"...


Anastasia Heron
Amarr
Ricercar Astral Research
Posted - 2009.10.20 15:28:00 - [266]
 

-I did research on capital component BPOs. This worked for a short while before the bottom fell out of the market. I tried to get the bank to buy my prints so I could start another research cycle, but that was rebuffed. I also tried to get someone with more playtime than I to sell the prints via auction. This was a miserable experience which took too long and still didn't get the desired result. I was then told by this same person that he had an amazing business plan he was working on to get me profitable again. As far as I know, I'm still waiting for that plan. Add to that he fact that I ended up injecting 20b liquid ISK back into the bank when we hit our liquidity crisis in June, and I didn't have a great deal to work with. I probably did idle too long in a wait-and-see mode when we were having trouble covering withdrawals, I'll give you that.

-TXD was not my venture. Nothing Ric did was my venture. There were others who had a great deal of oversight, and I didn't feel it necessary or even wanted that mine be another nose stuck in the business. Reports indicated that things were going well and people with characters in TXD seemed to confirm this.

-I don't know how responsible I should feel, or how much more reponsible I should have been. While I recognize that Internet Spaceships are Serious Business, I have a life outside of the game and continue to spend most of my time in it.

The fact is that I did turn a profit for those six months, just not the 5% I committed to and none of that profit was returned to the bank at that time. I instead held on to a significant amount of cash in anticipation of Stellar New Bidness Plan(tm).

But at any rate, I covered those missing profits from my own pocket, so while I may not be a great business manager, I'm trying to be honest. Opinions may differ.

Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
Posted - 2009.10.20 15:36:00 - [267]
 

Posting to confirm that this thread is now officiallycallycallly EPICZ

Dawts
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.10.20 15:45:00 - [268]
 

How about we do a fire sale? Everything must go, divide up the remaining isk, send it to anyone with an active account when everything was frozen. Erase all debt and start over. Anyone who thinks this bank is going to save itself is sorely mistaken.

Fool me once, shame on you... fool me twice, well you ain't gonna fool me again because you've already fooled me once.

Banks in EvE will always be exploited, people will always lose isk.

TBH, I think Ray would do better starting a bank on his own than trying to pick up the pieces of EBank.

KapnKaboom
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2009.10.20 15:46:00 - [269]
 

This whole 'EBANK' situation can be easily solved Eve style. Everybody strap on the biggest guns they can find and just take back what's yours from all current and former EBANK employees, their alts, and heck, everyone else around you. Last one left with any assets will be declared the winner. Laughing

Hexxx
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.20 19:15:00 - [270]
 

Originally by: Gabriel Virtus


Really important and relevant stuff that people care about.




Sir, I am unfamiliar with sarcasm. YARRRR!!


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