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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.10.09 01:07:00 - [1]
 

First off, this is a PVP oriented discussion. PVE has always been fairly irrelevant in Eve with respect to small details in performance differences with ships. Whether you make 20m ISK an hour vs. 22.65432432 ISK an hour isn't a big deal. Exploding or not exploding is a slightly bigger deal.

So, CCP has announced that they plan to bring T3 frigs into the game sometime after Dominion and it will be the next T3 class added to the game. I'd like to hear what everyone thinks about what T3 frigs should add to the game, what they shouldn't, and how CCP can introduce something that is relevant to PVP gameplay without obsoleting entire classes of ships and maintaining a practical design.

What lessons do you think CCP has learned through the introduction and development of the T3 cruisers that can be applied to T3 frigs? How will they apply what they've learned to the new ships?

Currently the most common T3 configurations I see engaged in PVP are those with big EHP tanks, as much DPS as possible while still maintaining a Covert Ops cloak. So basically, the same generic fits while being cloaky. It's boring but it works. How will T3 frigs end up any different? Does CCP care? Will CCP allow T3 frigs to even have a cloaking subsystem?

Frigs are unique because they have so many variants. Cruisers don't have an equivalent for Stealth Bombers or Interceptors for example. Will we see subsystems with similar capabilities in T3 frigs?

What about skillpoint loss? Losing 2-5 days every time your frig goes pop is going to get old really quick I would think, in addition to the fact that it's quite a bit more difficult to properly time ejecting out of a frig in comparison to a T3 cruiser.

With respect to the art possibilities, what do you think CCP has learned from the existing models and designs? Will the Gallente T3 frig resemble a piece of cat poop similar to the Proteus, only smaller? Or will CCP make the subsystems have a more interesting layout, perhaps a vertical or lateral configuration, or a combination of directions?

Currently the subsystems articulate in a linear fashion front to back, with the electronic subsystems either making or breaking the looks of the ship, with the rest of the subsystems doing little to change the overall shape of the ship. I hope CCP has learned a lot from the first implementation and will deliver a more refined product with the introduction of T3 frigs.

I await your comments and suggestions.

Davinel Lulinvega
Posted - 2009.10.09 01:19:00 - [2]
 

I want the minnie frig to be able to fit an amplification node and have a microscopic sig.

Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
Posted - 2009.10.09 02:23:00 - [3]
 

I really don't ****ing know.

but they will have to be cost competitive with t2, likely not completely over power t2.

covert ops cloak af/intys? 5km/s stealth bombers? eas that work? covert ops 5km/s bubble launchers?

Amalinze Tehkat
Out of Order
Cult of War
Posted - 2009.10.09 04:28:00 - [4]
 

Personally, I like the idea of say a 4-subsystem fit, with each subsystem having 4 variants potentially giving a bonus to any of the major roles (Scanning, Tackling, DPS, Ewar). Then set it up so that specializing in one role makes the ship basically unfittable. This would result in a series of mixed weapon system, mixed-role frigates which on their own might underperform compared to their t2 counterparts, but have overall more utility.

i.e. T3 frig A is kitted for cloak and tackle, with a heavy tank but light dps, while T3 frig B is a ranged glass cannon fit with maybe only 2 mid and low slots, extreme dps at a distance, and a bonus high with a slight scanning bonus. The t3 frigates individually don't stack up well against t2 frigates in their role of choice, but you need fewer of them to cover the same bases. The aformentioned combination would be more powerful than a covops+af combo, without being "better" than the covops or the AF at what they do. The idea being that a small group of pilots could potentially fit out their gang to cover every angle without needing as many ships to do it, and being able to refit based on what they want.

Or maybe none of this makes any sense and I've spent too damned long writing this post already....Sad

Renarla
Posted - 2009.10.09 04:32:00 - [5]
 

If they're similar to T3 cruisers in respect to frigates, I'd gladly pay 30m-40m for one. Probably not much more, though.

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2009.10.09 05:03:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 09/10/2009 05:04:28
Actually, looking at t3 cruisers I dont see the point in t3 frigates.

A covert ops combat frigate that is immune to bubbles would be interesting, but given the tendency that maybe 90% of the t3 cruisers around use those specific two subsystems they should probably be excluded this time.

Logistics bonused frigates are definitely interesting, as well as warfare link capable frigs would be, but I really dont know. Still, at least would fill a niche that doesnt exist yet.

Exploration bonused frigates with combat abilities would probably obsolete covert ops frigs completely, though a bastard child of interceptor, prober and covert ops could have its use. But again, would obsolete a lot of classes.

T3 cruisers already were kind of a disappointment already if you ask me (strong tank, ok dps, and combining HAC + recon is nice and all, but not really needed or genuine), they simply lack a purpose.

Nalena Arlath
Posted - 2009.10.09 05:16:00 - [7]
 

Retribution + extra midslot = T3 frigate.

Vengeance + functional rockets = T3 frigate.

It's really hard to find a new role for ships these days, since most stuff is already covered. Tackling, Ewar, DPS, speed tank, EHP tank et.c.

Only way I see to make something with a new role in the game is to add new modules or "effects" that would create a new type of role which would then need to be filled. Though I dunno what that could be. A new type of ewar or new type of effect probably. Cloak "bubbles" to hide your gang or something outside the box like that. Something to scramble your overview, making it show random stuff for a few seconds would really be fun, and of course, annoying. But ewar is always annoying for whoever is in the recieving end.

It's extra tough to make a new role for frigates, since they have so many in comparison to most other ship sizes. Within the frigate categories we have:

Regular vanilla frigs
Assault frigates
Interceptors
Cov-ops
Stealthbombers
Ewar frigates
Mining frigates (yeah I know, a bit of a stretch :P)

Did I miss any?

Also within each of those categories, each race covers the different types of engagement tactics and ewar. Drones, dampers, webbers, painters, neuting... all the frigs already in game cover these aspects.

To be honest, I would much rather see an overhaul to existing frigates so they might become useful (such as vengeance and hawk just to mention two) rather than adding a whole new line of frigates which most likely will bring about a whole new line of frigs where 1/3 has no role or is simply useless with todays state of the game.

Arbiter Reborn
Posted - 2009.10.09 06:03:00 - [8]
 

id say, 50m or so, same kinda subs as t3 cruisers, especially dic nullifier and probing ones id love a super covops. minimal sp loss would be preferable as they did say the wanted ppl to actually use them.

adding to the looks thing i figured the companies that make/desighned the subs would want there liveries shown, ie black with the ham sub on the legion, zebra stripes on the loki with the harpoint efficiancy one etc,

but really i just want that khanid revelation from that background they had

xxxak
Caldari
Intergalactic Syndicate
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.10.09 06:46:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: xxxak on 09/10/2009 06:47:08
Edited by: xxxak on 09/10/2009 06:46:29
I like the idea of a command-frigate that can fit a gang-link. That would be an interesting change. Two or three of those in a larger gang could actually make a fairly large difference, and would be cheaper (I hope) to lose compared to a commandship.

Other than that... a bubble-immune "shuttle-mode" frigate would be cool, but would somewhat overpowered as an uber-scout if it could also cloak. I think T3 frigates should be able to choose either cloak OR bubble immune, not both, or no one will ever have any risk in travel anywhere in EVE again...seriously...

Maybe also a super fast ship, that can go 7km non-overheat mwd speed but has very little tank or weapons.. a different kind of shuttle/scout.

Other than that, a DPS mode frigate and a tank mode frigate with somewhat more performance than an AF would be cool.. but that could make HACs obsolete unless it was pretty expensive...

Finally, how about a SMART-BOMB frigate.. able to fit one large smartie.

Frankly, its hard to see how T3 frigates wouldnt make HACs obsolete...

BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2009.10.09 06:58:00 - [10]
 

The only thing I can think of is a cloaking solo platform. It has its own niche without really making other ships obselete.

However seeing as there modular and need many roles, I really have no idea what else they cld do (rr/link's? lol dunno)

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.10.09 07:59:00 - [11]
 

Well, right now people seem focused on the two things that make T3 unique: the nullifier subsystem and the CovOps cloak. Once CCP introduces T3 frigs, and then follows with T3 BCs and BS, will every class get the option to mount a cloaking subsystem? What about nullifier subsystems?

I've long held the belief that dictor/HIC bubbles are overpowered and unneeded. That's why we have interceptors, and the HIC is fine with it's focused point but portable bubbles are IMO OP. Anyway, if they allow T3 frigs with cloaks and this continues to T3 BCs and BS, then eventually 90% of all players in lowsec/0.0 will be flying around in fully cloaked fleets.

If cloaks are what it takes to survive and be competitive then what is that saying about the game design in general? Right now combat is all about the ambush: cloaked ships, hotdrops, BlackOps cynos and stealth bombers. These are usually the best ways to hide the true strength of your force until the enemy has fully engaged. Anyway, I'm getting off topic.

T3 frigs: I think that the offensive subsystems will have to include a subsystem that works in conjunction with a propulsion subsystem for an overall speed bonus similar to an interceptor. Otherwise if the bonus didn't depend on both subsystems then everyone will fit the inty level propulsion system and be done with it.

Maybe we could give them cruiser level active tanks? How about Immunity to cap warfare? That's always been one of my favorite concepts- T3 ships having a subsystem that renders their cap invulnerable to any sort of cap warfare. At least then one heavy neut doesn't spell instant death if you're in a smaller ship.

I think that a logistics based subsystem would be really cool on frigs, particularly if it had a really good range bonus to where the frigs could orbit at a fair distance from it's gang and stay out of range of larger ships. Maybe that's what T3 frigs should focus on as an overall concept- range, instead of higher peak performance for DPS and such.

I also think that a gun-based version of stealth bombers would be pretty cool as well. I don't think this would be too hard to implement, giving a sig res penalty to small or medium guns. Maybe T3 frigs get a *really* big bonus to overheating? What about some radical off-race weapon combos like drones and missiles for Gallente, lasers and webs for Amarr, rockets and TDs for Minmatar and neuts/guns for Caldari?

I think that a missile based damp ship combo would be great for Gallente (assuming they fix damps), as well as a drone based EW ship for Caldari. Maybe we could see some overlap of pirate faction bonuses in the various T3 frig subsystem combos.

Suas
Perkone
Posted - 2009.10.09 08:14:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
I've long held the belief that dictor/HIC bubbles are overpowered and unneeded. That's why we have interceptors, and the HIC is fine with it's focused point but portable bubbles are IMO OP.


Look how dumb you are.

Dracoknight
Posted - 2009.10.09 08:24:00 - [13]
 

I rather want T3 destroyers than frigates...

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.09 08:27:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: BiggestT
The only thing I can think of is a cloaking solo platform. It has its own niche without really making other ships obselete.



Cov ops + expanded probe + AF tank/gank frigs seems the only real option for the T3 frigs.

While it would be fun, I do not really see the use of T3 frigs all that much. Frigs are primarly tacklers, and good at it. They simply have too little slots and harpoint to be really versatile.

I'd much rahter see T3 BSs.


Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
Posted - 2009.10.09 08:33:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Forge Lag on 09/10/2009 08:32:59
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
First off, this is a PVP oriented discussion. PVE has always been fairly irrelevant in Eve with respect to small details in performance differences with ships.


Yeah, I am soooo gonna blob next L4.

Also are you really calling supercaps a "small detail in performance"? PvE is much more ballanced and it is not coincidence.

So this thread is about solo PvP, right? Because that is what matters in EvE.

On more constructive note, they will have to be SBs with AF tank or people will complain again.

Free Folen
Posted - 2009.10.09 08:58:00 - [16]
 

I was thinking something like this:
Frig: 3 subsystems, death = chance of losing a level
Cruiser: 5 subsystems, death = lose 1 level
BC: 7 subsystems, death= lose 1 level and chance of a 2nd
BS: 9 subsystems, death = lose 2 levels

Lindsay Logan
Posted - 2009.10.09 09:05:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Forge Lag
Edited by: Forge Lag on 09/10/2009 08:32:59
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
First off, this is a PVP oriented discussion. PVE has always been fairly irrelevant in Eve with respect to small details in performance differences with ships.


Yeah, I am soooo gonna blob next L4.

Also are you really calling supercaps a "small detail in performance"? PvE is much more ballanced and it is not coincidence.

So this thread is about solo PvP, right? Because that is what matters in EvE.

On more constructive note, they will have to be SBs with AF tank or people will complain again.



Cov ops + probe + AF tank/gank is also the perfect scout+tackler ship, add inn interdiction nullifier and you got a nasty scout.

ropnes
Posted - 2009.10.09 09:21:00 - [18]
 

A subsystem that gives immunity to nos / neut would be veeeery cool on T3 frigs and would really help set them apart from T1 / T2 ones

Nick Parker
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.10.09 09:21:00 - [19]
 

The problem with t3 is it is ok at everything, but overpriced and not a master of anything (aside from running around cloaky and dictor proof. I've found that I like the cruisers for not being setup in a assault role, but a cloaky/scouty/probing/ support ship. Main reason for this is the Price of the ship. Second reason is I am just not pleased with some of the offensive setups you get with them. My own personal gripe.

Back on topic. T3 frigs should be viable, and should not make any t2 frigs obsolete. Their price should be similar to a tier 1 BS. Will they recieve the same 5 subsytem layout? Hopefully they will give a few new subsytems for teh t3 frigs and t3 cruisers.

One I could imagine is a capacitor safegaurd system for engineering, that renders it immune to cap warfare, but gives no slots. Better yet, one that renders it immune to neuting but not nossing (I miss nos usage). A heavy nos would trip it for one cycle, but a neut wouldn't flatten it. Another one I could imagine is allied defensive immunity subsystem. Amar and caldari are allied, so Amar would get a 7.5% bonus to Armor thermic damage resistance, while caldari would get a 7.5% bonus to shield explosive damage resistance. minmatar and gallente would get similar resistances. Maybe another good subsystem would be a propulsion subsytem that rendered the t3 cruiser immune to warp scrambling, but not warp disrupting, but gave the ship a low base speed.

The biggest thing I would like to see in a t3 frigate would be accessability to everyone. Even after several patches t3 cruisers have a primary target wrote on their hulls and a price tag that is shocking for what you get. If your going to loose real money if you loose one (IE 3-7 days of your account payment is gone retraining a skill from 4 to 5) and loose a stupidly huge amount of ingame currency, why fly one? Aside from the cloaky/dictor proof model, ccp has gave us very little reason to fly one.

Darth Felin
Posted - 2009.10.09 09:38:00 - [20]
 

It is a very interesting that approach will they use for a t3 frigate, because Strategic Cruisers are based on battlecruiser stats not cruiser one. Will they do same thing with t3 frigate?

Nalena Arlath
Posted - 2009.10.09 10:09:00 - [21]
 

Could also just do a complete revamp of all the ships in the game and let all the ships be based around modules like the T3 ships are, with different types of hulls, innate ship bonuses linked with hull et.c.

Obviously this is the path they are slowly starting to work towards by adding more T3 type ships to the game, and quite honestly, EVE would be a better game if they had done this from the start.

However, we can't turn back time and do it, so hey... just do a freaking revamp right away and chop every ship in the game up into T3's.

Sure, everyone will cry blood about their investments and yadayada.

At least we can mop up and remove some of the utterly useless ones like Augoror og Vengeance. Or possibly make them functional again?

Obviously, after years of complaints against many useless ships, this is never going to change, unless something drastic happens.

Full revamp and make every ship in the game have the same mechanic as T3 ships.

Fun times can start!

Omar Khayyam
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.09 10:11:00 - [22]
 

jump frigates YARRRR!!

Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2009.10.09 10:22:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Nalena Arlath
...

Full revamp and make every ship in the game have the same mechanic as T3 ships.

Fun times can start!


oh, yes! gief! honestly, i don't see how else T3 can work. i might shed a tear for some old designs, but the concept of T3 is in conflict with T1-adaptivity vs T2-specalization. T3 feels like mid-step to T4-specialization. question is: can EVE support such diversity of technological levels, except as craving for novelty? even now, there are effectively obsolete T1 designs. do we need more?

take a loot at rigs, and how they added to existing ships. imo, that was much better implementation of progress.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.09 11:21:00 - [24]
 

Well, to begin with, it's worth taking a look at what CCP themselves have in mind (from the T3 frig slide at the fanfest presentation):
Originally by: Torfi
Small Tech 3
  • Cheap
  • Highly configurable
  • Losing one won't be the end of the world

It's also worth considering another thing that was mentioned during one of the presentations: Strategic Cruisers isn't "Tech 3" — it's one cruiser-size implementation of T3. In other words, what the SCs do, and how they work, should not necessarily be considered a template or limitation for what T3 frigs could do and how they would work.

The last point, for instance, suggests to me that T3 frigs will not carry the SP-loss-on-death penalty, unlike SCs.

Marko Riva
Posted - 2009.10.09 11:32:00 - [25]
 

- EAS with balls
- covert with nullifiers

But truth be told, I don't see much use for T3 frigs other than bragging rights and being an isk sink (which is why we're having all the new T3 and faction ships obviously, CCP realised that we're becoming too rich and we somehow need to get rid of isk without it being insurable).

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.09 11:52:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 09/10/2009 11:52:06
Originally by: Marko Riva
CCP realised that we're becoming too rich and we somehow need to get rid of isk without it being insurable).
It won't be any more of an ISK sink than T2 ships are, though — less, in fact, since the manufacturing process is less complex.

(Note: buying an expensive ship doesn't get rid of ISK — it only transfers it to another person, and doesn't make us any less rich. The only way to get rid of ISK is to buy stuff from NPCs or use NPC services.)

Laughlyn Vaughns
Gallente
Lagos-Vaughn Industries
Posted - 2009.10.09 12:18:00 - [27]
 

I like the idea posted about a frig sized command ship, that would be rather interesting. maybe a frig sized force recon ship, like an EAF with cov ops cloak ability kind of thing.

i'd like to see a good drone controll option on the gallente cruiser sized T3 tho really

Korell Nova
Posted - 2009.10.09 12:24:00 - [28]
 

t3rigtes wil never be worth it with this skill loss on destruction they are just too flimsy for that drawback

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.10.09 12:29:00 - [29]
 

I don't see the point of t3 frigates. They cannot offer anything interesting while not being overpowered. Also skillpoint loss will be more frequent since its a frigate, and you cannot go any smaller than the current rank 1 skills.

Nullifiers on a frigate would just be immortal since, unlike the cruisers, it is completely impossible to catch a frigate as it aligns up unless in a sensor boosted interceptor.

There are plenty of t2 frigates, and I don't see any purpose to bringing out t3 ones unless CCP are far more creative than me.

V0lk0
Posted - 2009.10.09 12:35:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: V0lk0 on 09/10/2009 12:36:43
The T3 frigs will be reintroducing an old combat tactic from WW2, kamikaze pilots! Mind you, I'm using this term literally, your ship is the 40mill isk flying bomb, you cannot launch it in any way.

A new type of module will be invented, thats basically a huuuuge bomb you strap onto your ship, a couple of these bad-boys will take out even a faction fitted battleship if they are well coordinated. Carrying such a huge payload on a small ship will of course make them relatively slow though, and the radiation emissions from the bomb will sadly enough make you unable to cloak.

High-sec mechanics will make you unable to defend your efficiently, and the good people of eve will flock to the relative safety of 0.0 or low-sec.. At least they will get to shoot back that way.


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