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Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.10.08 04:24:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 08/10/2009 04:30:05
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 08/10/2009 04:25:00
Quote:
In the past week I have had 4 radars, 3 mags, 4 gravs, 2 ladars and at least a dozen anomalies.


... and what did you do for the other 5 days of that week? Very Happy


Honestly, if I "really" felt the need to take out a large POS in a class one I would cage it with bubbles first and kill anything that attempts to use it or refuel it. Once it runs out of fuel, take it out.

Conversely, you could take out its guns with heavily tanked BC. Once they are down blast it with stealth bombers in perfect safety.

Either way is probably not worth the time though, tbh.


skidoo
Amarr
Endless Destruction
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2009.10.08 05:57:00 - [32]
 

Wow... what an interesting post, and alot of fail statements (from some ppl). Others nailed it, but not completly. I am the CEO of a WH corp. There are some key points everyone is missing and some info that is not accurate at all.

#1. THERE IS NO POS NERF. The sites go on a 3-5 day timer when u warp to them. SOLOUTION: get the site to 100%, put the BM in the can and wait till you are ready to do the site. When you first go into a WH there are tons of sites cause ppl dont farm them, and warp to each site every day (those that are not occupied).

#2. If you love to seige pos's so much in high sec, wtf??

#3. GUYS, give these WH people credit here. They moved into the C2 or w/e before you had the balls to- so dont bash on them cause they got there first.

#4. As stated earlier- a corp can fued over a WH. The #1 reason of moving into a WH is profit. If you are constantly fighting eachother = no profit. Hence even though you have a safe haven at pos.... it sucks u dry eventually (and it is no fun). AND DO NOT FORGET THE FUTURE OF AMBULATION. (havent heard anything about walking in POS'S yet :P)

You are right when you say that you can build a cap fleet and 'claim' a WH system as your own. PLZ WATCH THE FAN FEST VIDEOS ON FUTURE SOV. Organizations currently feel that they have to go out to WH space cause there is no room in 0.0 (and they are right). Once the new sov system comes out, i bet you will see some ppl get out of the WH's, and back out into 0.0 (since it will be available for the taking due to the fact that there wil be no more 'AFK' empires.)

Oh, btw- if they are building CAPS in a WH for protection and spending BILIONS of isk on it.... who is anyone to say that what is being done is not fair? THEY CAN NOT TAKE THOSE SUCKERS OUT ANYWHERE U KNOW lol.

And dont forget to mention that pos's are not freeking fool proof. (heard of corp thieves?) You can imagine what a pos needs to support a corp.... oh yea, you need everything to be available for access to thier members (ships, mods, ect). That means EVERY ship is available to EVERY member. I have a system in place which HIGHLY discourages corp thievery (which i wont go into sice this is not the topic for it).

If CCP is reading this, PLZ do not change WH space POS mechanics.
And i will leave you all with a famous saying, "high risk = high reward."




Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2009.10.08 06:22:00 - [33]
 

Getting back on topic, you're absolutely right about your key assumptions but I believe you've missed a couple of important factors. Say you have a class 1 or 2 wh with a static highsec exit and you decide to set up a full reactor farm inside it. I'm talking 20+ large POS all reacting market-bought materials for profit. You can load up on defences for the POS and anyone attacking is limited to battlecruisers. You've just set up an impenetrable reactor farm and with daily highsec wormholes big enough for a freighter, hauling isn't a problem at all. I can definitely see why that's a problem.

But what they CAN do is set up their own POS and build dreadnoughts and battleships in-system. That gives you some warning time but it removes the entire battlecruiser bottleneck. They could get around this by placing POS on every moon in a system though. However, one thing you CAN'T do in wormhole space is jump drive past a gatecamp (or in this case a wormholecamp). A corp could feasibly starve your operation out by keeping a camp on your highsec wormhole and unless you bring in a force big enough to take them out, you're screwed. Granted, they have to keep up a small round the clock watch with anchored bubbles for a week or so but in doing so they get to ransom or dismantle a multi-billion-isk operation. This is how large POS operations were destroyed before dreads and co-incidentally it's more like a real siege than a dread siege ever has been.

If you have a significant enough force to back you up, you can also bring them in and successfully defend but this is the same for all POS operatons. But being in a C1/2 does add a layer of defensibility, it's not like a lowsec reactor farm where dreads and bs can appear without warning. You either get warning that they're coming or you wake up one day to find bubbles on your wormhole and people stopping your freighter from getting through. And if you have a lot of fuel and reacting materials, you can turtle up for quite a while. But the more you invest, the more you're risking if someone does pull a siege on you. It's a complex issue but not one I believe is a major problem.

Jojo Jackson
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.08 07:52:00 - [34]
 

Spawns have nothing to do with POS or not.
WH space is clustered. So several WH systems are combined to one block and share a fix amount of max posible spawns. When you clean up one system, this encounter will spawn either again in your system or one of the other systems. If now the other, lets say 9 systems of your cluster are not farmed, it might take a long time until this encounter despawn and have a new changs to spawn in your system.
It is easy to handel, just do a step out of your WH into other WHs you can reach from yours ;).

For the POS killing ... it is posible to kill largh tower in WHs. Sure, it take time and you can not brainless "gang" them. But you can do it. While class 2 allow BS even class 1 WHs are no real problem. There are several BC, HAC or T3, which can tank OK and dish out a nice punch (Sacrileg, Drage, all T3 just as excample). And all Logistics are Cruiser class. So you can bring a realy cool suport fleet too. Sure, Amarr BC aren't great as soon as they have to tank as they can't realy tank. But even a passive shield Hurrican maybe with suport can do it without problem.
Plus most WH POSes are realy bad fitted :). Large Beam Batterys aren't great at BC killing as soon as they move.

There is just one question: why the heck do you want to kill this POS?
Just for emo it is good, that you have trouble with killing it.

And for the numbers. You do not need several hundret BS for a large Tower. 20 might be enough, if you do a little more then warp in, sit around and watch the firework ;).

Cypherous
Minmatar
Lions of Judah Incorporated
Posted - 2009.10.08 10:25:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Korizan
.

Well bombs have what kind of range ? and considering most people tend to group guns.
You are only really concerned about the smalls and maybe the mediums depending on your speed.




Except bombs damage is sig based and POS turrets have small sig, trust me from experience when i say bombs are useless against POS :P

Some Advisor
Posted - 2009.10.08 10:27:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Some Advisor on 08/10/2009 10:34:55
Originally by: skidoo
#3. GUYS, give these WH people credit here. They moved into the C2 or w/e before you had the balls to- so dont bash on them cause they got there first.


i did it since patch for 1 week, then redid it again with proper "expedition" sized fleet, resources, and all the stuff, and ventured trough 2 wormholes until we arrived at our pretty nifty class 4 Wh with a static Class 3 Corridor connector with a nice highsec/lowsec/0.0 or any of those combos daily including some poor sobs who were in that class3 aswell (waves to many poor sobs we killed outside :P and thanks to that "pvp corp" that came from class 5 full in cruiser sht, cerberus, tengus, lokis and all that crap and hurt us plenty :( ) and moved in. we are living there since about month 1 of the patch. iam sure others had the balls aswell ^^


Originally by: skidoo
#4. As stated earlier- a corp can fued over a WH. The #1 reason of moving into a WH is profit. If you are constantly fighting eachother = no profit. Hence even though you have a safe haven at pos.... it sucks u dry eventually (and it is no fun). AND DO NOT FORGET THE FUTURE OF AMBULATION. (havent heard anything about walking in POS'S yet :P)


iam new in that pvp thing indeed, but i adapted and fought more and somehow managed to die less often. i got a ****znitz of covops devices and now even sister expanded launchers and can even sell them off fast enough. iam pretty sure there is some profit in the lots of t2 modules i accumulated and is sitting in the POS for being sold/used for ships (we also find btw. were on our 4th ship bay now :-/ )

Originally by: skidoo

You are right when you say that you can build a cap fleet and 'claim' a WH system as your own.


So? its fun :P i thought its all about having fun and doing crazy sht? :)

Originally by: skidoo

Oh, btw- if they are building CAPS in a WH for protection and spending BILIONS of isk on it.... who is anyone to say that what is being done is not fair? THEY CAN NOT TAKE THOSE SUCKERS OUT ANYWHERE U KNOW lol.


sometimes, just sometimes i get a class6 entry, there might be an way out if iam desperate.
sooner or later we want to move up a level anyway :P and so far i dont want to take the suckers out.
its a nice feeling when someone comes and they get suddenly hotdropped a
dread, carrier, orca for the lulz & loot an have just the "omg wtf" face on it :)
i like it ^^

Originally by: skidoo

And dont forget to mention that pos's are not freeking fool proof. (heard of corp thieves?) You can imagine what a pos needs to support a corp.... oh yea, you need everything to be available for access to thier members (ships, mods, ect). That means EVERY ship is available to EVERY member.


i surely hope so. I trust my Members i have, and we trust each other. no issue here.
Sometimes that nice world of just playing and sharing the fun is still there :P
No crappy things like corpthiefs and such stuff here.

Securitas Protector
The Concordiat
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.08 10:31:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Jimer Lins
If you really want to take down a large tower in a WH, you're going to have to blockade it. Move in and live there, kill anyone trying to refuel it, camp them into the tower and kill all the defensive mods. Scan out any WHs and blockade them with bubbles and gank ships. Wardec the corp and kill any refuelers while they're still in known space.

Eventually it'll run out of fuel and you can kill it quickly.

Shooting it's an option but if it's a large tower you're gonna be busy for a while.



This. On a contract, S-F and IHANA deployed to a WH (class 3) and shuttled in 25+ battleships. We blockaded it for a day, reinforced a medium tower (which took FOREVER), killed most of the people in system. Scanned out WH's and blockaded them.

Then they hired Noir.

Mad

It took a ridiculous amount of time to RF that POS to.

Aurora Nyx
Inglorious-Basterds
Posted - 2009.10.08 10:34:00 - [38]
 

OP is either troll, or fruitcake.


There are thousands of POS's in high-low-null sec, go blow those up.

Maybe he likes the look of WH POS's because many are run by small corps, with limited PvP capability.

Grow some.

David Grogan
Gallente
The Motley Crew Reborn
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2009.10.08 11:39:00 - [39]
 

u could try sieging the pos by placing lots n lots of large bubbles from every concievable angle and celestial object and preventing the owner from refueling it ^^ then blow it up when it goes offline...........

or u could be a risk taker and using a fleet of interceptors fly as fast as u can around the pos at large gun activation range and wait til it runs out of ammo then rince & repeat with mediums pos guns (make sure u got a logistics cruiser nearby to rep the intys when required)

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2009.10.08 11:57:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: rofflesausage
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2

Your whole post is a fail since theres no such a thing as a POS nerfing respawn rates.



Oh how original, another poster who can't construct a sentence without the word "fail" on the Eve forums Rolling Eyes

http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1042748/page/1

Even the most basic search terms will show plenty up on this.
Google. Eve-Search. Ask in the exploration channels, whatever - but I assure you, after being in WH's for several months now I have little doubt this is the case.

WH exploration with an Orca as a base vs a POS as a base, is worlds apart in terms of spawns.

http://www.ngi-corp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=41

Quote:
11. Weather intended or not, Wspaces apparently DO bottom out when you take up residence within them. Five confirmed cases, three with POSs and two without. The Wspaces eventually dwindled to one static wormhole and one exploration spawn. Sites DESPAWN as usual, but simply to not RESPAWN at the "normal" rate.




You know what.
Stay igonorant while me and my crop taking advantage of the actual facts.

I have advice for you. Do not belive everything you read.

Hint :
Even DEVs confirmed theres no POS nerfing spawn.


rofflesausage
Posted - 2009.10.08 12:05:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2

Hint :
Even DEVs confirmed theres no POS nerfing spawn.




Not that I'm calling you a liar, but do you have a source by any chance?

Apple Ginger
Minmatar
United Security Services and Resources
Posted - 2009.10.08 12:19:00 - [42]
 

Maybe this needs a bit more creative thought applied than sticking with traditional routes.

While it is indeed a challenge to take out a pos in such systems, perhaps you should be considering that the systems aren't so profitable for those farming them and it should be sufficient to disrupt their activities enough so that they leave. Maybe. I havent given this enough thought to be honest.

Ninjas have had some success with SB at least on a small tower.

I'd like to see how long it takes to get 120 bc into a c1/c2 wormhole. It would probably be quicker to ahem, anchor a pos in there and build a couple of dreads, of course you would have to abandon them afterwards.

Cadde
Gallente
221st Century Warfare
Posted - 2009.10.08 12:34:00 - [43]
 

WH space site respawn functionality is the same as in any system anywhere in eve. That is, once you clear them out they spawn ELSEWHERE. And they remain ELSEWHERE until someone does them or they time out. That when they spawn somewhere ELSE (not necessarily in your own w-space) until they are done or time out.

The reason they, as you guys who believe you are right about it based on your own experience, disappear when you anchor or use orcas in system is because as soon as one spawn you clean it out. While all the other wormholes that hasn't been visited for a while have plenty of signatures in them waiting to be cleaned out and circulated in the constellation. As was the case when you guys first moved into your pos-less system. No-one had been there and cleaned it out yet.

So, either you stop focusing on a single wormhole system or you wait until every w-space system is claimed and you'll see the signature spawn rates in your own system will rise no matter if you have 10 poses and 200 orcas in that system or not.

---

Killing poses in W-space is easier than it is in known space because it's harder to fuel them. And to kill a large pos doesn't require dreads or a carriers. Just a bunch of battleships or likewise, something that can tank and take down the pos guns. Then it's a matter of TIME.

Also, battleships can jump into Class 1 wormholes. Orcas can sometimes even jump to class 1 wormholes. And even if they can't jump into class 1 from known space at all times. They can get to class 1 wormholes from class 2 w-space when there are wormholes between w-space and w-space.
It is also entirely possible that a class 6 wormhole will spawn in a class 1 w-space.

It's entirely RANDOM. There's just a bigger chance to get a class 1 wh from highsec than it is to get a class 6. I've seen three class 6 wormholes coming from highsec to date.

andeira
Posted - 2009.10.08 18:14:00 - [44]
 

Can I suggest setting up a large tower youself and build some dreads inside the wormhole? correct me if wrong but I believe it is possible to build dreads in wormholes. logistical nightmare to get the goods in but it works

Comodore John
Gallente
Trixi IFI
Posted - 2009.10.08 18:23:00 - [45]
 

Step 1: Put up a POS of your own.
Step 2: Put up a X-Large Assembly Array.
Step 3: Build a Dread.
Step 4: Fit dread and go shoot other POS.
Step 5: Find a way to get dread out of WH or SD.

Tellenta
Gallente
versic LLC
Posted - 2009.10.08 19:04:00 - [46]
 

Another one of these "I don't like it so it is an exploit" posts?


Rage on I guess.

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2009.10.08 19:06:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 08/10/2009 19:05:57

skidoo
Amarr
Endless Destruction
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2009.10.08 19:09:00 - [48]
 

Well, i love this topic. And i appologize for such a long post the first time :P. Our corp also resides in a C4. We go from the C4-> C2-> high sec or low sec. And if the C2 is occupied (which it usually is) we send in a buzzard, scan down a fleet- and our t3 fleet will blast the crap out of em. Afterwards we will do the sites in the C2 (what few there are) if the C4 is empty (which it usually isnt).

Point being is this: WH space is a different world. It isnt like 0.0 AFK empires where it is nearly impossible to take over if you are a new allaince (unless u join a powerfull coalition). And it is DEFINATELY impossible to take over if you are one corp. WH wars a few months ago was considered illogical- now it is reality. So WH space isnt some high- nigh fortress for a corp.

Different strokes for different folks. We have 30 ppl in our WH system (which is alot more than most corps). So i can tell you first hand the pains it is to get pos fuel, ship mods, ships, ammo, ect. Not horrible, but it is a pain. #1 reason for us for living in a WH is that the teamwork is increadible. I have played eve for like... forever it seems. And i have done it all: industry, piracy, 0.0, high sec, grieveing- ect.

So this isnt the easiest thing we have done- but is has been the coolest think i have ever done.

Sig Sour
Posted - 2009.10.08 19:52:00 - [49]
 

People who setup a pos in w-space are not the ones I am picking a bone with here. It is the carebears who seek the SAFETY of the class 1 systems. The overhead it takes to actually PVP with these folks is outrageous, they are removed from the PVP element of the game, which to me is an exploit. People are using it as an immunity card which is not what Eve is supposed to be about.

Mojihito
Posted - 2009.10.08 20:00:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: skidoo
Well, i love this topic. And i appologize for such a long post the first time :P. Our corp also resides in a C4. We go from the C4-> C2-> high sec or low sec. And if the C2 is occupied (which it usually is) we send in a buzzard, scan down a fleet- and our t3 fleet will blast the crap out of em. Afterwards we will do the sites in the C2 (what few there are) if the C4 is empty (which it usually isnt).

Point being is this: WH space is a different world. It isnt like 0.0 AFK empires where it is nearly impossible to take over if you are a new allaince (unless u join a powerfull coalition). And it is DEFINATELY impossible to take over if you are one corp. WH wars a few months ago was considered illogical- now it is reality. So WH space isnt some high- nigh fortress for a corp.

Different strokes for different folks. We have 30 ppl in our WH system (which is alot more than most corps). So i can tell you first hand the pains it is to get pos fuel, ship mods, ships, ammo, ect. Not horrible, but it is a pain. #1 reason for us for living in a WH is that the teamwork is increadible. I have played eve for like... forever it seems. And i have done it all: industry, piracy, 0.0, high sec, grieveing- ect.

So this isnt the easiest thing we have done- but is has been the coolest think i have ever done.


Welcome our neighbours . Wonder when you will open up to our system again.

necrosia demora
Posted - 2009.10.08 20:06:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Sig Sour
People who setup a pos in w-space are not the ones I am picking a bone with here. It is the carebears who seek the SAFETY of the class 1 systems. The overhead it takes to actually PVP with these folks is outrageous, they are removed from the PVP element of the game, which to me is an exploit. People are using it as an immunity card which is not what Eve is supposed to be about.


they are not immune. look at the replys. there are many, many suggestions on how to take out a pos. you just want a fast fix. eve isnt about fast fix's, its about adapting and overcoming. your problem is you want to kill anything with ease, but whs arent about ease they are about challange. if your not willing to accept that challange then you should stay away from whs.

Sig Sour
Posted - 2009.10.08 20:08:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Sig Sour on 08/10/2009 20:11:58
In theory they are not immune. Reality is they are.

Originally by: necrosia demora
eve isnt about fast fix's, its about adapting and overcoming. your problem is you want to kill anything with ease, but whs arent about ease they are about challange. if your not willing to accept that challange then you should stay away from whs.


There is a loophole that allows someone the ability to avoid PVP with ease. Knock that one down (the reason for this thread), then talk to me about eve not being about doing anything with ease.

Red Thunder
WEPRA CORP
White Noise.
Posted - 2009.10.08 20:14:00 - [53]
 

ccp mentioned sleepers coming to kill your pos.....lets hope and pray :)

Mad Sc1entist
Posted - 2009.10.08 20:38:00 - [54]
 

You could always just kill the defenses then sit afk with a cap-stable lazor ship(s)...

necrosia demora
Posted - 2009.10.08 20:45:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Sig Sour
Edited by: Sig Sour on 08/10/2009 20:11:58
In theory they are not immune. Reality is they are.

Originally by: necrosia demora
eve isnt about fast fix's, its about adapting and overcoming. your problem is you want to kill anything with ease, but whs arent about ease they are about challange. if your not willing to accept that challange then you should stay away from whs.


There is a loophole that allows someone the ability to avoid PVP with ease. Knock that one down (the reason for this thread), then talk to me about eve not being about doing anything with ease.


omg how stupid are you.

the pos is there. you want it dead you either attack it or form a fleet to attack it. as is the case with a c1 wh you need to build your fleet instead of just jumping through a hole and insta poping it with easy.

if your not willing to even try it then thats your fail. how is a pos in a wh a loophole that is immune to attack. it is only immune because you wont try. wh pos's call for different tactics and there are many different ones to from. this is not a broken mechanic its all your arrogance and unwillingness to try a different approach

Yerotun
Posted - 2009.10.08 20:45:00 - [56]
 

To tell you the truth, there are other ways to get someone in a w-space system. a war of attrition, this means you just would have to live there too, and prevent them from getting supplies in. but that is for too much work for the avg alt ya know.. siege the damn hole man!!

necrosia demora
Posted - 2009.10.08 20:54:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: necrosia demora on 08/10/2009 20:55:36
a war of attrition is going to hit a carebears wallet far more in a wh than an all out attack. think about it how many millions does it take to run a pos. now if its sole purpose if for producing t3 then its going to have all its reasources for the production there for ease. you blockade that pos and they not only loose a pos when it finnaly goes but all the fuel stores which by the end have run out and now all the gas/t3 componants and maybe even ships. if they stay they die and if they run you have a chance of stealing everything.

this compared to just destroying it is that time loss. time is afterall money and in eve loosing a month due to an attrition war can be very costly especially if you have so much invested in that pos.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2009.10.08 20:55:00 - [58]
 

For what it is worth, you can get battleships into class 1 and class 2.

I think only one kind of class 1 allows battleships, Z971 at 100 million kg. Not all battleships will fit though.

All class 2 allow all battleships (even an Orca will fit), and you can get about 20 battleships in on a fresh wormhole.

Sig Sour
Posted - 2009.10.08 21:46:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Sig Sour on 08/10/2009 21:47:50
Originally by: necrosia demora
omg how stupid are you.

the pos is there. you want it dead you either attack it or form a fleet to attack it. as is the case with a c1 wh you need to build your fleet instead of just jumping through a hole and insta poping it with easy.

if your not willing to even try it then thats your fail. how is a pos in a wh a loophole that is immune to attack. it is only immune because you wont try. wh pos's call for different tactics and there are many different ones to from. this is not a broken mechanic its all your arrogance and unwillingness to try a different approach


Care to put your money where your mouth is? I propose a wager, 1 billion isk. I will setup a pos in a class 1 WH, and if you can kill it within 2 weeks, you get a billion isk. If not, you pay me a billion isk. What do you say?

LeeIaa
Posted - 2009.10.08 21:55:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: LeeIaa on 08/10/2009 21:58:21
dude, you just bring in bs till the hole closes, find exit, move bs not in the hole to that site, bring in more till hole closes, find next exit, rinse repeat. come on man you just makin excuses to be lazy.

Hell if i really had to, because of hole restrictions in a few c1 holes, I would bounce through 1-2 other w-hs and bring the fleets through that way. It is doable, you are just a nobbin nubbin


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