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Caldari Citizen4714
Posted - 2009.10.05 15:26:00 - [1]
 

I have pretty good probing skills (Astrometrics and all support skills except the scan time skill at IV), but I spent 30 minutes trying to get a 100% hit on a strategic cruiser in a mission running hub, and never got better than a yellow hit; which I lost track of in subsequent scans.

Even with seven probes out (three with 8 au to try and prevent losing a hit completely) and four at 1-2 AU to try and get a warpable hit, I came up empty handed.

Does anybody have any tips on probing these things out?

I'm thinking about training covops V (at IV now) just for the extra scan strength...

Cypherous
Minmatar
Lions of Judah Incorporated
Posted - 2009.10.05 15:29:00 - [2]
 

Have you rigged the cov ops frig and are you using sisters probes and a sisters probe launcher, if not they will help, i have similar skills and all i can't find is cov ops frigs :)

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.05 15:31:00 - [3]
 

Welcome to the wonders of flying in a small ship (and the reason why I haven't seen a ninja salvager in one of my missions for… oh… a year). Smile

I can only mention the obvious: lose the three extra probes (or at least turn them off — by all means, keep them in position for when you lose the signal) since they may lessen your chances; move your probes in closer; reduce range/increase strength on your probes; get some rigs; get a covops; get Sisters equipment.

Rebecca Rhineheart
Posted - 2009.10.05 15:50:00 - [4]
 

Yes I was to understand that any more than 4 probes was superfluous anyway.

Caldari Citizen4714
Posted - 2009.10.05 16:03:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Cypherous
Have you rigged the cov ops frig
Dual gravity capacitors since I built the thing.

Originally by: Cypherous
and are you using sisters probes and a sisters probe launcher, if not they will help, i have similar skills and all i can't find is cov ops frigs :)
Thanks, I was starting to think that there really any options short of training covops V (16D) and astrometric rangefinding V (32D!).

I'll look into a sister's launcher & probes. How much do they go for?

Caldari Citizen4714
Posted - 2009.10.05 16:09:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Welcome to the wonders of flying in a small ship (and the reason why I haven't seen a ninja salvager in one of my missions for… oh… a year). Smile
Not for long. YARRRR!!

Originally by: Tippia
I can only mention the obvious: lose the three extra probes (or at least turn them off — by all means, keep them in position for when you lose the signal) since they may lessen your chances;
I hadn't realized they could be detrimental. Are they actually counter-productive, or just ineffectual? I don't know the internal workings of the probe mechanics that well it seems...

Originally by: Tippia
move your probes in closer; reduce range/increase strength on your probes;
I was aware of that, but thanks.

Originally by: Tippia
get some rigs; get a covops;
I've been using a rigged helios since I started probing :)

Originally by: Tippia
get Sisters equipment.
The one thing I hadn't thought of it seems.

Though I'm surprised you're helping me considering...I take it you don't run in popular hubs?

When I use my alt to mission (it's been a long time) I don't do it anywhere popular. haven't seen a ninja yet.

Cypherous
Minmatar
Lions of Judah Incorporated
Posted - 2009.10.05 16:11:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714


I'll look into a sister's launcher & probes. How much do they go for?


The probes are fairly cheap, i think the launchers are not quite as cheap on the old wallet though but definately worth it just try to avoid losing it :)

Alana Mei
Posted - 2009.10.05 16:11:00 - [8]
 

You don't need covops 5, a rigged covop works fine...

For that matter I've gotten warpable scans on a pod in nullsec with 4 probes in an unrigged non-covops ship...(and I think that would be harder than a strategic cruiser)

Granted I've not spent much time scanning people down in highsec...mostly in null where you know what other ships are present so its not like you have as much to sift through...One trick I use though is to use the directional scanner to get an aproximate range and direction on the person...then set up the probes accordingly...also using the directional scanner can help you if you lose the hit due to them moving...you can easily figure out where they went...

One big problem is the way your probes are set up...if the 8 au probes are getting a signal at all that is going to weaken your overall signal strength..4 probes is best for most situations...5 can be used to increase strength on a very weak signal but its very difficult to position it...any more and you are most likely losing strength.

MaxPower 519
Gallente
Dirt Nap Squad
Posted - 2009.10.05 16:15:00 - [9]
 

Damit people stop helping the ninja salvager!

Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
Posted - 2009.10.05 16:18:00 - [10]
 

Didnt someone work out a particular subsystem/module fit that was unprobable?

SKUNK

Caldari Citizen4714
Posted - 2009.10.05 16:20:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Rebecca Rhineheart
Yes I was to understand that any more than 4 probes was superfluous anyway.
Then why does Astrometrics let you use up to eight? I mean, I know how I take advantage of being able to use seven (don't have astrometrics V).

What I usually do to start is just scatter all seven probes I can launch, set at about 8 AU, all around the center of the solar system (deliberately excluding warpable celestial bodies). Seems to be about the quickest route since from the beginning I'm excluding ships that are sitting at stations, planets and stuff.

Caldari Citizen4714
Posted - 2009.10.05 16:29:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Alana Mei
You don't need covops 5, a rigged covop works fine...

For that matter I've gotten warpable scans on a pod in nullsec with 4 probes in an unrigged non-covops ship...(and I think that would be harder than a strategic cruiser)
Being inside a mission greatly increases the difficulty. Marauders are trivial (due to lower sensor strength), but even battleships are a little more difficult.

Originally by: Alana Mei
Granted I've not spent much time scanning people down in highsec...mostly in null where you know what other ships are present so its not like you have as much to sift through...One trick I use though is to use the directional scanner to get an aproximate range and direction on the person...then set up the probes accordingly...also using the directional scanner can help you if you lose the hit due to them moving...you can easily figure out where they went...
It has more to do with deadspace dampening the signal than anything. For ships outside deadspace I can probably get a green hit with 8 AU probes due to skills + covops + rigs.

Originally by: Alana Mei
One big problem is the way your probes are set up...if the 8 au probes are getting a signal at all that is going to weaken your overall signal strength..4 probes is best for most situations...5 can be used to increase strength on a very weak signal but its very difficult to position it...any more and you are most likely losing strength.
I hadn't realized they would actually diminish the strength. And here I thought I was being clever by using some larger ranged probes to keep things in sight while using smaller ones to pinpoint.

Orthaen
Posted - 2009.10.05 16:36:00 - [13]
 

As I understood it, if you have an 8 AU probe and 2 AU probe both hitting the signature, the game assumes both probes are set at 8 AU, as far as doing math and finding your scan strength.

Also, I thought the dead space dampening effect was removed, sometime ago. I hear people cry about it on the forums at least. /shrugs.

Probe launcher is about 30-40 million....dont have any specific tips about scanning down T3 ships, I've never tried. Also, ninja salvagers suck!Evil or Very Mad

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.05 16:52:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 05/10/2009 16:54:30
Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714
I hadn't realized they could be detrimental. Are they actually counter-productive, or just ineffectual? I don't know the internal workings of the probe mechanics that well it seems...
It depends. They can be, but often aren't, but why take the risk?

It works like this: all probes are checked against the target, and the four probes with the best hits are selected as the ones that will determine the hit percentage. Based on these four, the spatial relationship between them is checked to see what kind of hit you will get: are the angles between them great enough; are they on different planes; etc… If you have more than four probes, it could very well be that one of the extra ones give you a better hit, but is located so poorly that you're actually getting a more inconclusive result.
Quote:
Then why does Astrometrics let you use up to eight? I mean, I know how I take advantage of being able to use seven (don't have astrometrics V).
Because with eight probes, you can effectively track two targets at once, or simply mass-scan a bigger swath of space in one go if you're just sweeping for targets and aren't trying to pinpoint them just yet.

Oh, and news from the fanfest: some time in the near future, you can uniformly scale your probe setups (not just the scan radius) — set them up in the standard tetrahedron, hold whatever scale modifier key they set, shrink the scanning area in one swift move…

Caldari Citizen4714
Posted - 2009.10.05 16:59:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Orthaen
As I understood it, if you have an 8 AU probe and 2 AU probe both hitting the signature, the game assumes both probes are set at 8 AU, as far as doing math and finding your scan strength.
Interesting. Any official documentation of this stuff? I'd like to learn all I can about probing since I spend a lot of time doing it.

Originally by: Orthaen
Also, I thought the dead space dampening effect was removed, sometime ago. I hear people cry about it on the forums at least. /shrugs.
I wasn't aware. Can anyone confirm?

Originally by: Orthaen
Probe launcher is about 30-40 million....
Not too bad. Considering my helios is already a tough little beastie, it's probably a worthwhile investment.

Originally by: Orthaen
dont have any specific tips about scanning down T3 ships, I've never tried.
It's really just a question of signature vs. sensor strength. Problem is strategic cruisers can have pretty small signatures and really high sensor strength. Roughly speaking a SC can be 4x as difficult to probe down as a battleship, whereas a marauder can be almost twice as easy as a battleship.

Lance Fighter
Amarr
Posted - 2009.10.05 17:01:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Le Skunk
Didnt someone work out a particular subsystem/module fit that was unprobable?

SKUNK

While fairly easy, setting up a legion to be unprobable requires 3 ECCMs in the mids..

if you like gimping your mission setup (or just dont need the mids.. ya right), then sure..

Caldari Citizen4714
Posted - 2009.10.05 17:07:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Oh, and news from the fanfest: some time in the near future, you can uniformly scale your probe setups (not just the scan radius) — set them up in the standard tetrahedron, hold whatever scale modifier key they set, shrink the scanning area in one swift move…
Wohoo!

Right now it's a tedious PITA. Especially when you accidentally click a probe label instead of one of its planes or arrows and the game moves the focus of the view to that probe whether you wanted it to or not.

Thanks for the tips though. I didn't realize that having greater angles between the probes mattered. I usually just have four evenly spaced in the same plane so that they're easy to work with.

Do you know where I could find an guide or something with everything about probing? I thought I had at least the basics, if I didn't understand how things worked under the hood, but it turns out I was basically doing it wrong and simply had enough in skills and equipment to make up for how I was (mis)using them. Despite all that, getting warpin on a marauder or battleship was pretty easy. I imagine once I start using greater angles between probes and using only four I'll do even better.

Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
Posted - 2009.10.05 17:11:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Lance Fighter
Originally by: Le Skunk
Didnt someone work out a particular subsystem/module fit that was unprobable?

SKUNK

While fairly easy, setting up a legion to be unprobable requires 3 ECCMs in the mids..

if you like gimping your mission setup (or just dont need the mids.. ya right), then sure..
Just as well the Legion isn't the only T3 then eh? Smile

I've seen a couple of unprobeable Proteus and even a covops/bubble immune & unprobeable Tengu fit, it's definitely possible.

Arous Drephius
Posted - 2009.10.05 17:19:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714
Originally by: Orthaen
Also, I thought the dead space dampening effect was removed, sometime ago. I hear people cry about it on the forums at least. /shrugs.
I wasn't aware. Can anyone confirm?


Confirmed. I've probed people in missions that are in deadspace with no trouble at all.

Captain Vampire
Caldari
Kung Fu Vampire Ninja's
Posted - 2009.10.05 17:30:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Tippia


Oh, and news from the fanfest: some time in the near future, you can uniformly scale your probe setups (not just the scan radius) — set them up in the standard tetrahedron, hold whatever scale modifier key they set, shrink the scanning area in one swift move…


Got a link to this news? Will make me a happy YARRRR!! when/if this makes it through.

Caldari Citizen4714
Posted - 2009.10.05 17:47:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Arous Drephius
Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714
Originally by: Orthaen
Also, I thought the dead space dampening effect was removed, sometime ago. I hear people cry about it on the forums at least. /shrugs.
I wasn't aware. Can anyone confirm?


Confirmed. I've probed people in missions that are in deadspace with no trouble at all.
I've probed them easily too, but I haven't tested whether or not they're actually easier or harder than people just sitting at a station (since my initial scan already excludes warpable objects).

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.10.05 17:54:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 05/10/2009 17:56:50
Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 05/10/2009 17:54:59
some t3 cannot be probed: there's the 100% threshold and if you don't reach it... tough luck ^^
i, too, have unprobe'able t3 ships; one mission running loki and one gang-link-legion. no rigs, implants, implant sets and/or all-lvl-5 chars can ever get 100% on me.

[Loki, New Setup 3]
Domination Gyrostabilizer
Domination Gyrostabilizer
Domination Gyrostabilizer
Domination Tracking Enhancer
Domination Tracking Enhancer
Damage Control II

Gallente Navy 10MN Afterburner
Gist X-Type Large Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Conjunctive Ladar ECCM Scanning Array I
Conjunctive Ladar ECCM Scanning Array I

425mm AutoCannon II, Fusion M
425mm AutoCannon II, Fusion M
425mm AutoCannon II, Fusion M
425mm AutoCannon II, Fusion M
425mm AutoCannon II, Fusion M

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing II
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing II

Loki Defensive - Amplification Node
Loki Offensive - Projectile Scoping Array
Loki Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Loki Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Loki Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

halo implant set



so, about training cov-ops V: your probe bonus jumps from 140% to 150%, which is a 7.14% improvement. yes, if you can currently hit your arch enemy there with 93.33% then skilling cov ops V would lead to exactly 100%.
if you're below that, you still won't be able to get him after all those weeks of skilling -.-

Caldari Citizen4714
Posted - 2009.10.05 18:11:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Roemy Schneider
Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 05/10/2009 17:56:50
Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 05/10/2009 17:54:59
some t3 cannot be probed: there's the 100% threshold and if you don't reach it... tough luck ^^
i, too, have unprobe'able t3 ships; one mission running loki and one gang-link-legion. no rigs, implants, implant sets and/or all-lvl-5 chars can ever get 100% on me.

[Loki, New Setup 3]
Domination Gyrostabilizer
Domination Gyrostabilizer
Domination Gyrostabilizer
Domination Tracking Enhancer
Domination Tracking Enhancer
Damage Control II

Gallente Navy 10MN Afterburner
Gist X-Type Large Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Conjunctive Ladar ECCM Scanning Array I
Conjunctive Ladar ECCM Scanning Array I

425mm AutoCannon II, Fusion M
425mm AutoCannon II, Fusion M
425mm AutoCannon II, Fusion M
425mm AutoCannon II, Fusion M
425mm AutoCannon II, Fusion M

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing II
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing II

Loki Defensive - Amplification Node
Loki Offensive - Projectile Scoping Array
Loki Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Loki Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Loki Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

halo implant set



so, about training cov-ops V: your probe bonus jumps from 140% to 150%, which is a 7.14% improvement. yes, if you can currently hit your arch enemy there with 93.33% then skilling cov ops V would lead to exactly 100%.
if you're below that, you still won't be able to get him after all those weeks of skilling -.-
Interesting to know. How exatcly is the threshold calculated? I assume it's Sig radius to sensor strength relative to probe strength, but I don't know the actual formula.

Do you think that unprobable ships might be a considered a bug or accidental oversight? It sure doesn't seem intentional.

But regardless, I doubt many dedicated mission runners would gimp their setups with enough ECCMs to make themselves unprobable. I've seen a battleship use a sensor backup array, but that was after I'd probed him down and was sitting next to him...

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2009.10.05 18:37:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714

Do you think that unprobable ships might be a considered a bug or accidental oversight? It sure doesn't seem intentional.


It is intentional. It was brought to the attention of the dev designing the system when it was tested before release and he only seemed to care about making sure all ships where findable in basic state (no eccm, halo etc).

Okonaa
Posted - 2009.10.05 18:54:00 - [25]
 

how many ****ing threads are you going to make about the same tpoic? cry and ragequit pls.

Caldari Citizen4714
Posted - 2009.10.05 19:00:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Okonaa
how many ****ing threads are you going to make about the same tpoic? cry and ragequit pls.
Shocked

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.10.05 20:26:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 05/10/2009 20:34:26
Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714
Interesting to know. How exatcly is the threshold calculated? I assume it's Sig radius to sensor strength relative to probe strength, but I don't know the actual formula.

Do you think that unprobable ships might be a considered a bug or accidental oversight? It sure doesn't seem intentional.

But regardless, I doubt many dedicated mission runners would gimp their setups with enough ECCMs to make themselves unprobable. I've seen a battleship use a sensor backup array, but that was after I'd probed him down and was sitting next to him...
seems to be intentional. being a combat prober myself ("expanded probe launcher on everything!") i repeatedly pointed out the inherent "invulnerability" throughout that month-long inception on sisi last year.

the sensor/sig factor existed with the previous system aswell. but now we have this threshold;
before i unravel all the maths again (it's not complicated, just a lot ^^), trust me with this rule of thumb:
"for every 1.1m sig, you need 1 sensor" (... to be unprobe'able) this covers the "perfect" prober.

however!
- your drones can still be probed
- if you do an anomaly/plex (unless it's an exploration leg) they can go for that

oh and the gang-link-legion:

[Legion, New Setup 1]
Dread Guristas Co-Processor
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Warded Radar Backup Cluster I

Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I
10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Command Processor I
Command Processor I

Armored Warfare Link - Damage Control
Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense
Armored Warfare Link - Rapid Repair
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II


Legion Defensive - Warfare Processor
Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Legion Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Legion Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier
Legion Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix

can warp cloaked, is bubble immune, is unprobe'able (gang links need uncloaking -.-), hands out more bonuses than a damnation [which won't survive the future doomsdays anymore, either]

edit: it's also much more hilarious to just sit in enemy space in a t3 while being clearly visible on dir scanner, getting all their probers online etc while you are off to the pub

Daan Sai
Polytrope
Posted - 2009.10.05 21:27:00 - [28]
 

Using more than 4 probes does help. With an octahedral pattern you are actually setting up multiple tetrahedral solutions, and will catch higher solutions to weak signals more quickly. When you use only 4 and miss, you need to start again.

6 is a good compromise between the bare minimum 4 and 8 being too many to move quickly.


Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.10.05 21:29:00 - [29]
 

more quickly yes, but it cannot improve a "good" 4-probe-result as the server only takes the 4 best probes into consideration
... or so i remember reading a CCP pos last year...

Dakius
Posted - 2009.10.05 23:08:00 - [30]
 

The easiest solution is to not even bother with probing down strategic cruisers.

They, in general, have around 150m sig radius and 35 sensor strength, and they commonly almost never use drones... some even have ECCM modules making them completely unprobable. This makes them very tough needles to find in the haystack. It doesn't surprise me at all that you spent half an hour trying to probe one and then lose signal completely, most of the time the mission runner in the t3 cruiser will have finished the mission by the time you get even a good yellow hit.

The best thing to do is to forget about that strategic cruiser and go after the yummy marauder. Low sensor strength, huge sig radius, and many big drones Very Happy. Alot funner probing out marauders and faction battleships. Remember, you're after 'their' tears. Wasting half an hour probing only gets you your own. Neutral


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