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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.10.05 12:48:00 - [1]
 

I've always hated the Myrmidon. It has always annoyed me. Six gun slots, no gun damage bonus. An active tank bonus in a game where buffer tanks and static HP reign supreme. It's a drone ship with only 75mb of bandwidth and can't even field a full flight of heavy drones. Since the Nos nerf it has lost its main force multiplier. Drones are worthless in lowsec on gates and stations.

But then I watched Kessah's latest video, the very impressive 'Forever Pirate Final', and not only did it inspire me, it got me to thinking about the Myrmidon. What if I could assemble a miniature 'Kessah Domi fit' for the Myrm? So I got to work with EFT and then tested some fits on the test server in actual *gasp* PVP. Here is what I learned:

#1, Medium blasters f#cking suck. With a dual rep, MWD and dual medium injectors to keep it all running, you can juuuuust barely squeeze in a full rack of T2 medium electrons. Too bad their optimal is 1.5km with max skills and they're *completely* useless past 5km. That's half web range folks. Basically zero DPS at 5km. First fight I had a Harbinger kept me at 13km and my blasters were rendered useless twice over.

#2, Armor hardeners are nearly useless on anything less than a 7-8 slot tank. I tried 3x hardeners (therm/kin/exp) and an EANM with dual T2 reps and 2x nanopump rigs, 1x nanobot rig and ended up with 520 DPS tank. I then switched to 3x EANM and a DC2 and was able to get a 518 DPS tank, but with FAR LESS CAP USAGE, and less fitting requirements. Fail hardeners are fail. Also, EANMs aren't rendered useless by neutralizers.

3, I could *almost* fit 6x FMP2 lasers, MWD, dual reps and dual injectors. Almost. If I went with 2x faction reps and a COSMOS MWD it would all fit. Yeah right. 400m in mods for a Myrmidon? I think not. I ended up dropping the 6th FMP2 and just stuck a small neut in the last high for lack of anything more interesting. The 5x FMP2 STILL outdamaged anything else, over greater range than anything else I could stuff in the highs. Stuff I tried: 6x dual 150mm T2 rails, 6x 425mm T2 ACs, 6x T2 Medium Electron Blasters, 200mm Railguns, etc. etc. Even with the dual reps, 5x FMP2 and the MWD running, I still had plenty of cap/sec with the dual injectors.

With 3x Ogre IIs and the 5x FMP2s with ANMF I ended up with around 465 DPS, 6.75km optimal and a 518 DPS tank. All of that is without overheating. Flip to scorch for 20km optimal and you also have the option of a second flight of three heavy drones for a different damage type.

So I ask you, is 465 DPS and a 518 DPS tank pretty reasonable for a BC? I don't fly them that much so I'd like to know what to expect out of them. With the advent of medium sized rigs it's become practical to rig BCs now, and I've been wanting a lighter weight ship to chase war targets in empire. I think this might be a good option. Let's see some feedback please.

Dorian Wylde
Posted - 2009.10.05 12:53:00 - [2]
 

It's a battlecruiser, and you expect it to be able to use 5 heavy drones? What the hell would the dominix be useful for then?

And where is it carved in stone that every ship has to conform to what the players say a pvp fit should be this week?

Oh, and it's a DRONE BOAT. Gallente have quite a few of them, maybe wanna do a little research. That's why it has a DRONE bonus rather than guns.

What the hell do hardeners have to do with the myrm? You said yourself you found a better way, ever think that was the intended fitting?

My god, I didn't think it was possible to whine this much about nothing.

Wideen
Total Mayhem.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2009.10.05 13:47:00 - [3]
 

like its bigger brother the dominix, the myrm is extremely versatile. You can basically run all the same fits a domi runs but with the option of trying the tripple rep setup which tanks like a beast for no dineros mentionable.

Go out and ENJOY YOURSELF (tm)

Perry
Amarr
The X-Trading Company
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.05 13:50:00 - [4]
 

465dps is enough to kill a buffertanked BC while your 500+ dps tank pretty much negates any dps coming your way from another BC (except gank Brutix and gank Harbinger, but these drop like flys). Fit a Tracking Disruptor with (optimal script) against harbs and (tracking script) against Brutixes. A Medium Cap Injector should be enough run the Tank for a while, just use 220mm Autocannons to finish the target even if you run dry during the finish. These guns even come with 15km falloff if you use Barrage!

Myrm is pretty good at what it does, if it was any better the Eos and Astarte would be obsolete.

oh wait

Madmi CEO
Posted - 2009.10.05 13:55:00 - [5]
 

As for PvE, my friend tanked all the L4's we did together in his Myrmidon with 2x MARII's. Only rarely had problems.

It's an impressive ship.

Laur Khal
Posted - 2009.10.05 13:56:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Dorian Wylde
It's a battlecruiser, and you expect it to be able to use 5 heavy drones? What the hell would the dominix be useful for then?



Vexor, cruiser-hull droneboat: 75Mb bandwidth
Dominix, BS-hull droneboat: 125Mb bandwidth

Myrmidon, BC-hull droneboat: 75Mb bandwidth, clearly should be 100Mb.

Quote:

My god, I didn't think it was possible to whine this much about nothing.


irony plus.

1600 RT
Posted - 2009.10.05 13:59:00 - [7]
 

i think the myrm deserve at least 100mbit of drones.
it would be a nice step in the vexor (75) > myrm(100) > domi(125) path

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:04:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Dorian Wylde
It's a battlecruiser, and you expect it to be able to use 5 heavy drones? What the hell would the dominix be useful for then?
The flipside of that is, it's a battlecruiser and still can't field more drones than a Vexor…

Madmi CEO
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:05:00 - [9]
 

The 75Mb -> Myrm -> 125Mb logic doesn't really work you know.

The Myrmidon has a +7.5% per level bonus to repair amount... that's immense! The Dominix doesn't have that. Should we then give the Dominix +10% per level repair amount to even it out? And the cruisers +5%?

The result is 200 ships completely identical in bonuses, with only their size being different. Boring.

Shereza
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:08:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
It's a drone ship with only 75mb of bandwidth and can't even field a full flight of heavy drones.


The ishkur is a drone ship with only 25mb bandwidth and the eos, another drone ship, has the same bandwidth as the myrmidon. The whole arbitrator lineup is a wad of drone ships, but none of them have bandwidths over 50mb.

A ship's status as a drone ship has no real bearing on its bandwidth. Apparently neither does the ship's size as the ishtar has 125mb and the proposed remake for the gila gives it 125mb.

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
So I got to work with EFT and then tested some fits on the test server in actual *gasp* PVP.


To match sarcasm with something else, "Since when can you have real PvP on the test server when all the free-for-all areas are clearly marked, and possessing of the capacity for significant camping, and where non-consensual PvP elsewhere is a violation of the server rules?"

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
With 3x Ogre IIs


Three T2 ogres? Why are you passing up the up to 30 rDPS boost of using a 2/2/1 light/medium/heavy setup? That's an increase of roughly 10.5% rDPS from your drones and it does nothing to hurt your DPS against larger targets and can boost your eDPS by getting drones on the target faster and make the conversion rate better against smaller/faster targets than it would be with just 3 heavy drones.

Originally by: Dorian Wylde
It's a battlecruiser, and you expect it to be able to use 5 heavy drones? What the hell would the dominix be useful for then?


It can field an equal or superior tank, more buffer, has more reloads for drones, and generate more gun-based DPS if you choose to use guns.

Originally by: 1600 RT
i think the myrm deserve at least 100mbit of drones.
it would be a nice step in the vexor (75) > myrm(100) > domi(125) path


It'd be nice but not very likely, especially as it would give grounds for people to demand the same bandwidth boost for the eos.

Of course I have to wonder how T1 progression is impacted by T2 and faction designs. The ishtar and, as things stand with Dominion, the Gila, will have 125mb, the same as their battleship big brothers the sin and, eventually, the rattlesnake.

Soeniss Delazur
Blue Republic
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:14:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Soeniss Delazur on 05/10/2009 14:15:58
Edited by: Soeniss Delazur on 05/10/2009 14:14:51
The lack of gun bonus is not necessarly a problem as it gives you the ability to fit other turret types then hybrids. I find AC to be best so you don't nuke your own cap running a dual MAR setup.
I wouldn't bother trying to fit hybrids on this thing as you said yourself you won't be able to deal any damage at all if the other guy's staying out of blaster range, which isn't hard really.

The other thing is that you never deal your full drones dps unless fighting a BS, your Ogres will have trouble dealing any damage on MWD:ing hurricane orbiting you at 20km.

The only advantage you get in comparison with a plated cane/harbi is probably a slighly better agility, but same goes for the Drake.

I haven't tested the triple MAR setup, it looks cool on the paper but you need good cap skills to make it worth really.

I think you need a disruptor on this thing as people will not likely engage a Myrmidon at point blank. Which kind of justifies fitting it with AC.

About hardeners don't forget they give you resists even if you have no cap, depending on your armor compensation skills (non active modules)




Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:20:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Shereza
The ishkur is a drone ship with only 25mb bandwidth
…which is unprecedented among Frigates — the ship hull the Ishkur belongs to — not to mention the immense drone bay.
Quote:
and the eos, another drone ship, has the same bandwidth as the myrmidon.
The Eos is also considered… ehm… how should I say… subpar.
Quote:
The whole arbitrator lineup is a wad of drone ships, but none of them have bandwidths over 50mb.
They instead have very nasty secondary weapons to back those drones up, and are generally seen more as "omfg, where did my cap go"-ships than drone ships.
Quote:
Originally by: 1600 RT
i think the myrm deserve at least 100mbit of drones.
it would be a nice step in the vexor (75) > myrm(100) > domi(125) path
It'd be nice but not very likely, especially as it would give grounds for people to demand the same bandwidth boost for the eos.
They already do, since the Eos is crap. In fact, most of the Eos demands I've seen centre around the figure 125Mbit…

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:31:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
With 3x Ogre IIs


First off, use a mix of drones. You lost your last bit of credibility on that. Second, you don't need 2 cap boosters on a myrmidon.

Third, everyone knows blasters suck on the myrmidon. Every single fitting lately has been autocannons or lasers. You should see the laser, shield tanking myrmidons.

Suas
Perkone
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:39:00 - [14]
 

Blasters don't suck, they're fun on the gank-fit shield Myrmidon. But yes, not so good on the rep and injected Myrmidon.

Also hahaha, seeing Bellum posting numbers with 3 Ogres. You're so incompetent. :(

Do you use 3 medium drones on ships with 30m bandwith as well?

Spectre3353
Gallente
Heavy Risk...
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:50:00 - [15]
 

Blasters do work on the Myrm. I personally roll with two webs most of the time so that I can actually keep my targets in range for blasters to hit. That being said, autocannons or lasers are both usually a better choice (I like AC's personally so that you can save your cap for running your reps and not your guns).

Hardeners are not useless as they can be overheated and EANM's cannot. Did you factor the overheating into your 520 DPS tank?

Your numbers sound pretty reasonable and the Myrm (like all the Tier 2 battlecruisers) is a very effective ship. If you're flying around solo then the Myrmidon is probably one of the best BC choices you can make thanks to it's flexibility with drones, good ship bonuses and good slot layout (although if Merin sees this thread he will come in here and rave about how it is the weakest Tier 2 BC and he once saw a fully faction fit Myrm get solo'd by an Ibis).

Marko Riva
Posted - 2009.10.05 15:19:00 - [16]
 

How is this a bad fit, you still have 43k EHP while repping 286 (426 overload), you do 510 dps. Granted, you're not too fast but you do have a very good defense against smaller ships and both a point as a scram and you can drop some ECM drones if stuff is about to go wrong.

You're down on dps compared to gank fit BC's but you have the same EHP as them while active repping. I don't see the issue tbh. Droneboats generally don't work too well in fast moving fleets but are great for small gang/solo work.


[Myrmidon, 1 MAR]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Adaptive Nano Plating II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II
Warp Scrambler II
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Nanobot Accelerator I


Hammerhead II x5
Vespa EC-600 x5
Warrior II x6
Hammerhead II x2


Ulstan
Posted - 2009.10.05 15:43:00 - [17]
 

The Myrmidon is great. I guess you wouldn't want to use it on gates in low sec but that's true of most drone reliant ships. You see it all the time in FW or high sec wars.

You can either shield tank it, and use the medium blasters and damage mods, or use a cap injected dual MAR set up and concentrate on drones and small blasters to **** frigates.

Or hey, you can just use the drone and tank bonus and go wild with AC's and Lasers.


kessah
Blood Blind
Posted - 2009.10.05 17:00:00 - [18]
 

Here bud, use this seriously try it out.

Linkage

Plug in the Numons family heirloom and its even better, i used improved exile as its alittle cheaper at about 15m, but strong will set u back 20m and increase the tank i think u can top it out just shy of 1200 dps.


Renarla
Posted - 2009.10.05 17:17:00 - [19]
 

Unfortunately, the best Myrm fits use Autocannons and a Shield Tank, despite the ships bonus.

[Myrmidon, Myrm]
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Berserker II x2
Hammerhead II x2
Hobgoblin II x1
Warrior II x5
Vespa EC-600 x5

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.10.05 17:18:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: kessah
Here bud, use this seriously try it out.

Linkage

Plug in the Numons family heirloom and its even better, i used improved exile as its alittle cheaper at about 15m, but strong will set u back 20m and increase the tank i think u can top it out just shy of 1200 dps.




That looks pretty good Kessah, but with your setup I'm still running into the basic issue of almost no gun DPS out past 5km or so. Also, using boosters every fight isn't economical when simply overheating guns/reps can cost more to repair than all the combined loot for an entire fight.

The rest of you: you just don't get what I'm trying to do here. Use different drone sizes? I'm a 'noob' for not using the generic 2/2/1 drone combo? More like I'm ignoring convention and choosing to have a second complete set of heavy backups and/or a second damage type. Not having more than one complete wave of drones is simply not an option. If I flew a 2/2/1 setup and those were destroyed, then I'm pretty much permanently crippled for the rest of the fight, which is unacceptable.

FMP2 and a web are good at killing smaller targets where heavy drones aren't the most optimal tool. I'd like to use ACs, but their optimal with EMP is the same as blasters, and their DPS with Barrage isn't comparable to that of lasers, particularly when you account for range. I need to be able to reach targets at 18-20km and hit them for near full DPS with my guns if I'm triple webbed and being kited.

As for implants, I'm considering building a clone just for active armor tanking, but right now I have slots 1-6 spoken for with various implant sets.

Most of the suggested fits I've already tried on SISI (and against a PVP partner that was cooperating with me to provide a 'realistic' PVP experience) and rejected as inferior. I've been trying to find a reason to use the Myrm on TQ, but so far it's not looking good.

kessah
Blood Blind
Posted - 2009.10.05 17:29:00 - [21]
 

Id probably suggest the Brutix then bud and use ecm drones. Each ship has its own spec in different types of combat as im sure you know.

I wouldnt use the Myrmidon for piracy, actually no i would, i would use it for my preferred form of pvp, solo-defensive.

Sit somewhere busy and look tempting with a way to escape if thing look alittle gang heavy. Just prey on a gangs confidence of safty in numbers, its soooo satisfying when a single pilot sends them home... shamefully ugh If your looking like you cant tank them without overload, then drop booster, go bright green and turtle up.

Bibbleibble
Posted - 2009.10.05 17:34:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
The rest of you: you just don't get what I'm trying to do here. Use different drone sizes? I'm a 'noob' for not using the generic 2/2/1 drone combo? More like I'm ignoring convention and choosing to have a second complete set of heavy backups and/or a second damage type. Not having more than one complete wave of drones is simply not an option. If I flew a 2/2/1 setup and those were destroyed, then I'm pretty much permanently crippled for the rest of the fight, which is unacceptable.


3 heavy Drones = 75m^2 of drone bay
2 Heavy Drones, 2 Medium Drones and 1 light drone = 75m^3 of drone bay, with better damage, tracking and speed.

Forgive me if I'm not getting your point here...

Susy Assulu
Caldari
Atomic Mexicans
Posted - 2009.10.05 17:40:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Bibbleibble
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
The rest of you: you just don't get what I'm trying to do here. Use different drone sizes? I'm a 'noob' for not using the generic 2/2/1 drone combo? More like I'm ignoring convention and choosing to have a second complete set of heavy backups and/or a second damage type. Not having more than one complete wave of drones is simply not an option. If I flew a 2/2/1 setup and those were destroyed, then I'm pretty much permanently crippled for the rest of the fight, which is unacceptable.


3 heavy Drones = 75m^2 of drone bay
2 Heavy Drones, 2 Medium Drones and 1 light drone = 75m^3 of drone bay, with better damage, tracking and speed.

Forgive me if I'm not getting your point here...
75x2=150 \o/ I can have cookie now Cool

el caido
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2009.10.05 17:40:00 - [24]
 

Bellum, I swear you concoct these ridiculous posts in hopes that someone will dec you. The Myr is fine, even with its 75mb bw. As already stated: its greatest strength is in its versatility. If you cannot get a Harbi into blaster range, you are not using your spare drones and/or mids appropriately.

For someone who is such a blaster *****, you certainly fail at using them. Stop posting.

slightly sillydude
Posted - 2009.10.05 17:58:00 - [25]
 

Its ok, I don't see why you wouldn't use a drake though. About the same DPS if you use heavies, with 3 times the range. Probably twice the effective HP of the Myrm. Granted, the tanked DPS is much higher with the Myrm, but even two injectors probably won't save you vs. a curse. That and the armor rigs will make you about as fast as a battleship. The main advantage of the Myrm imo is the ability to fit multiple ECCM with totally gimping yourself.

Shereza
Posted - 2009.10.05 18:06:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
The rest of you: you just don't get what I'm trying to do here.


You know, you're right. How could I have possibly missed it?

You're trolling and this isn't a serious thread. I should have known. Sad

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Use different drone sizes? I'm a 'noob' for not using the generic 2/2/1 drone combo?


Someone mind enlightening me on exactly when 2/2/1 became "generic." Back when the myrmidon was freshly nerfed and I suggested it the people who even bothered to acknowledge the idea seemed to want to burn me at the e-stake.

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
More like I'm ignoring convention and choosing to have a second complete set of heavy backups and/or a second damage type.


... So you're ignoring convention in order to limit your ship's versatility by packing only heavy drones, of which the myrmidon can only fit 6 of instead of drones of other sizes?

Forgive me if I don't see the versatility, or reload capacity, inherent in packing 6 heavy drones versus 30 light drones, 15 medium drones, or some combination of two or more drone sizes.

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Not having more than one complete wave of drones is simply not an option.


Wing A:
Hobgoblin II x1
Hammerhead II x2
Ogre II x2

Wing B:
Warrior II x1
Valkyrie II x2
Berserker II x2

Gee, there's two there.

Or you could go with:

Wing A:
Ogre II x2
Hammerhead II x2
Hobgoblin II x2

Wing B:
Valkyrie II x5

Wing C:
Warrior II x5

Or you could swap out Wing B with 5 medium ECM drones and keep wing C for smacking interceptors and other tacklers.

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
If I flew a 2/2/1 setup and those were destroyed, then I'm pretty much permanently crippled for the rest of the fight, which is unacceptable.


So let me get this straight, you PvP in a bugged myrmidon?

Why, for the love of all that is holy, are you flying around in a bugged myrmidon? I mean every normal myrmidon can toss out up to 150m3 of drones within the 75mb constraint which means you can toss out up to 6 heavies with only three out at one time or up to 30 light drones with only five out at once.

The only way I can see for you to be unable to toss out more than 5 drones if you use a "conventional" 2/2/1 split is because your myrmidon is bugged and in that instance you need to be filing a petition and/or bug report, not posting in this board.

Suas
Perkone
Posted - 2009.10.05 18:27:00 - [27]
 

Hahaha.

Bellum is so entertaining.

"I AM IGNORING CONVENTION - I AM NOT DOING SOMETHING STUPID, YOU'RE THE ONES WHO ARE MINDLESS SHEEP!!" Laughing

RedSplat
Posted - 2009.10.05 18:44:00 - [28]
 

needs 100 bandwidth

Neuronai
Posted - 2009.10.05 18:51:00 - [29]
 

I use this:

[Myrmidon, Triple MAR]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II

10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Warp Scrambler II
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800

Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S

Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Nanobot Accelerator I


Ogre II x2
Hammerhead II x2
Hobgoblin II x1

It works for me ^^

Davinel Lulinvega
Posted - 2009.10.05 18:55:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Davinel Lulinvega on 06/10/2009 17:26:34
Wow the people white knighting the myrm in here are amazing.
75mb drone bandwidth is crap. 1/2/2 mix of drones is crap. The only thing that keeps the myrm from being totally useless right now is that it has a ton of mids and you can put lasers on it.


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