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Mme Pinkerton
The pink win
Posted - 2009.10.08 16:01:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 08/10/2009 20:55:13
Originally by: Otto Durako
Yih's friends obviously have their own motives, as well as Yih/main himself, but unless that entails a revamp of the current GS doctrine then there should be no fear of his plan succeeding.


Goonswarm is big - the existence of this very thread shows that the leading clique has already surpassed it's optimal size (if you're interested in the concept of optimal clique size and its RL implications -> Gunnarson/Lundahl, "The good, the bad and the wobbly").

Yih has announced he cannot pull off this venture on his own, he claims his goal is to see GS fail hard - but it's very unlikely that an alliance like GS will vanish from one day to the next.
A sufficiently hard failure would let some parts of management look extremely incompetent, while others might be able to distinguish themselves by "preventing" further harm, holding together collapsing structures etc.

A loss of assets can be compensated, if the means to generate these assets are not lost (R64s & lots of human capital). The rebuilding of destroyed/lost assets might even leave an impression of progress in places where previously stagnation has been the norm (think of a "peace dividend").

Maybe Yih has solely the goal to hit GS hard - his fellow conspirators have the goal to take over & rebuild what is left. It's just a nice & simple palace revolt.

that's my 2 cents (props to Otto for pointing to the issue)

EDIT: whether you're a scammer or not - nice choice of a name for this alt, Yih

The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.10.08 16:46:00 - [122]
 

why hello there thread how are you today~

thebarry
SRS Industries
SRS.
Posted - 2009.10.08 17:14:00 - [123]
 

oh look mittani is here now! wait, i'm supposed to be lurking >_<

Aion Morpheus
Posted - 2009.10.08 18:31:00 - [124]
 

Now that it looks like it could be done and that we have a well positioned man in there, the question is what possible reason could have them to return the money when the operation is done? They have no rep to go for, no "irrational" honesty to claim, and no reason at all to be honest. It can be true that they seek to hit GS (the fleet), but what prevents them from taking an 'extra' reward after that?

dr doooo
Posted - 2009.10.08 19:09:00 - [125]
 



I can't believe how many people are considering this to the point of asking questionsLaughing. The whole thing is full of holes, and the OP is making it up and changing it as he goes alongRolling Eyes.

In the one in a million chance that this plan is for real, this guy is happy to scam old 'mates' that he has been playing with, and is trusted by, but for some unspecified reason he is going to honour the investments made by strangers to an anonymous alt.Laughing

Even if it was some other Alliance being targeted the plan would be a 'joke'(hardly worthy of the title 'scam'), but this is Goonswarm we are talking about? right? Scams are the adrenalin in the corporate veins of GS, closely related to their whole reason for existing in this game. They revel in consistently scamming any non-GS player in a multitude of ways, and yet continue to find new victims, even after posting threads and videos of their exploits.

If this plan is really posted by a senior GS member, then that just makes it more likely to be a scam (as in 99.99% likely, rather than 99.98%)



Roguehalo
Caldari
Roguehalo Ship Brokers
Posted - 2009.10.08 19:12:00 - [126]
 

the MD is the 'mark'

dr doooo
Posted - 2009.10.08 21:49:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Yih
Edited by: Yih on 07/10/2009 21:03:36
Edited by: Yih on 07/10/2009 20:58:19

I went to use Chribba first and foremost, Chribba declined, for various reasons, most of which to do with the pressure he knew someone like this would be under for the next several months because of a single piece of information.



Yea rightRolling Eyes

As soon as talk of third party verification came up, it was glaringly obvious how things were going to transpire. There was no way that Chribba was going to allow himself to be used as a pawn in a Goonswarm scam, and sully his name by association. I must admit though that I was surprised by how naive some of the new 'auditers' have been in this whole sorry story.


Shann Wu
Posted - 2009.10.08 22:26:00 - [128]
 

Yih,

I've trudged through the negative posts here, but I've also seen a lot of good. I don't really see some 'GS Exec' trying to scam us in such a way that he has to put this much work into it. There are faster and more profitable ways to spend your time.

I really felt what you said about 'calling every GS member a scammer is like calling every Amarr a slaver' [paraphrasing]. I also see that he who invests first gets the phatter lewt, something I'm completely interested in.

So here is 1.5billion isk to get you started, which, from what I'm reading, is 1% yes? To all those naysayers out there, who are going to laugh at me and say I got scammed. I laugh at you, for valueing an in-game value that might take you a week to make at most, so highly.

Question Yih, if I invest more later - does the latter amount get the same treatment as the former? (If I invest 3 more bil on the last day, does that simply mean I get my 3% worth out of the prime booty?)

segnod
Posted - 2009.10.08 22:55:00 - [129]
 

man this is a p sweet ponzi scam I wish I had thought of it first :(

Andron Blaxcor
Posted - 2009.10.08 23:04:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:

IN a larger sense, however, the murkiness arises. Does an auditor from MD have a responsibility to GS to prevent a scam against them? What about preventing a scam against MD? Luckily, I think this situation comes up so rarely and, as in this case, the level of belief is so low due to the sheer complexity of the issues of trust, this dilemma arises rarely.



Remember: mass murderers and fanatic terrorists still get an attorney to defend them.
Right few days ago here 2 guys got judged for very heavy and repeated acts of group violence on a girl, while his boyfriend was forced to look at them.
Then the same guys went around merrily gloating and spreading around about their actions.

They got arrested and since law in my country is just for the looks and used for politics anyway, they got VERY mildly and barely condemned (including a reimbursement to the victims they won't ever pay because they result jobless etc. etc.).


Their attorney was as disgusted as anyone else but he said his job in that case was to defend them, even if his personal opinion was completely opposite.


The same happens here.

In the game where everyone including top bankers can reveal to be the evil orc, in the game of ruthless megacorps financing their own agendas with private armies and so on...

... you come and talk of murkiness?


I don't support scamming nor thieving at all, I hate both.
But the guy here, like it or hate it, is using authorized (ie not exploited) game mechanics and there's exactly 4-5 people in this whole game who can be trusted by anyone, really anyone to be neutral and honest (honest as humanly possible).

His risk is to get someone who despite being important and famous like FX90 will act by discretional purposes and decide what's good and what's not (ie giving a State ship to who he decided he's the legitimate owner insead of honoring his job).
Even higher than this risk, is to get someone who despite being paid a fraction of it, will resist the corruption of *tens of billions* and pressure that will naturally be imposed upon him.

All of this in a game where everyone could just accept the tens of billions, biomass and restart a new life as super-rich tychoon with a nice 80M SP bought character.

Given all those premises, there's not many who could be trusted such impartiality and hard face against whatever is thrown at them.



Sorry if my largely meaningless ramblings caused offence to you VV, not my intention. The murkiness I referred to was more of a reference to the political distinction between this proposition and other offerings. In most MD offerings the only end goal is profit which is, relatively, easy to predict. All proposers want to make money. Here, however, we find ourselves guessing the allegiance of an unnamed character within GS. Will they scam us or scam GS? If Yih has the money he seeks from MD he will be in the position to do either and make a profit. Thus his allegiance (or otherwise) to GS will be the deciding factor in whether MD investors get burnt or profit. In my books a key detail being inscrutable makes things more 'murky' than normal.

My ramblings about the morality of the role of an auditor was very much abstracted. As I acknowledged, your main role is to confirm or debunk specific claims as to a character's capabilities. And, in this case, as in many others, the auditors have nailed down one of the unknowns. Yih could potentially pull this off. Unlike a business plan, however, politics is involved as well as profit, so whether he will or not is an intractable and murky question.

I, like may others, am enjoying the show whatever happens. I hope Yih is honest and successful, but there are simply too many unknowns for me to risk my isk.

/me retires to watch the outcome.

segnod
Posted - 2009.10.08 23:08:00 - [131]
 

oh yeah just a lil' seriouspost here I'll pluck one tiny item out of the dozens of options that indicate yih has no idea at all how goonswarm is run


Originally by: Yih
Edited by: Yih on 04/10/2009 00:15:48
member lists in other corps (Yes I'm looking at you you filthy spies) will be released to EVE at large to decide what to do with.



there are only 4 people in goonswarm who would have a list like this and none of them would need anyone else's isk to pull this off

Yih
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.10.08 23:59:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Yih on 09/10/2009 00:19:12
Segnod,

Obviously I have no idea how GS is run, that's why both VV and cosmoray verified my identity, and further to that, they also added the information that I am in a very good position to do incredible damage to GS.

Shann Wu,

Firstly, thankyou for investing. It has now been confirmed and will be placed on the front page. To answer your question about future investment, it will simply be treated as a seperate investment, as if you were a new person investing, I cannot add favoritism here for my initial investors, outside of what I have already listed as 'perks' to investing early.

Dr Doo,

I like how you point out this thread is full of holes, without actually pointing a hole out. Kind of interesting, don't you think? I took a quick look through your past posts, and you seem to enjoy being a good little troll, feel free to keep it up. I'll gladly ask for Chribba's clarification on his reasonings if you like. Since apparently you know him better than he knows himself.

Andron Blaxcor,

I myself have limited allegience to GS. Of course, here you have only my word, and since I'm from GS, that appears to automatically make my word invalid (which I cannot blame people for thinking.) Both VV and Cosmoray have been explained my reasonings behind what I'm doing, but it's still not something they can vouch for, just like neither of them would vouch for someone in any circumstance and say with absolution 'This person wont scam your ISK'. It's just not feasible for an Auditor to provide.

In my business plan I will be touching as much as I can on this, but I have a good analogy for you that has worked for me.

Imagine you log into eve, and you are greeted by an auditorium packed to the rafters of young, ADHD kids. You are one of maybe three adults online charged with keeping them calm, and focussing their efforts. Does this sound like something you would like to face every day? I know it's not something I personally enjoy.

Originally, yes, GS was my home. When it was smaller, and more compact, it was incredibly easier to tolerate, have fun in, and enjoy. When we could work as a team for the ****s and giggles, and generally entertain each other by acting homoerotic on the forums (much to the disgust of others, and the amusement of some). These days have long gone. GS has reached the stage where it is at critical mass.

Since the time of posting the intention of doing this, I've received offers from inside GS to help, offers I obviously cannot take, because there is an equal chance of them just wanting to turn around and blab. So I ask what makes the most sense?

Consider this 'fact' I am a senior member of GS.

As a senior member of GS, there are many 'scams' I could partake in that would generate me ISK faster, easier, and without scrutiny. Senior members generally have the most experience in this, after all.

Logically speaking, with such an avenue available, would I seriously spend a stupidly large quantity of time (4+ hours a day) answering questions in game, posting on the forums, writing up business plans, plotting, and generally doing HARD WORK? for this amount?

If I was some kiddy member in the corp, then it would make more sense. But I could make more ISK, for less work, sitting on my arse and doing nothing. Hell, I could start up an alt, throw some candy around, and get showered with ISK practically from the word go - a quick look through the MD forums shows an abundance of people willing to do just that.

The point is, when has a senior GS member ever put in HARD WORK to get something? They don't, if they can avoid it. Yet here I am, doing exactly that. Why? To scam you, obviously...to scam you the hard way, instead of the several outlets I could be using to scam you without putting in even a tenth of the work this venture has taken (and will continue to take). A week for 1.5bil? puhlease. I know miners who make more than that for less effort.

EDIT: Yih has now procured the services of NOIR merc corp.

Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
Posted - 2009.10.09 00:43:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Yih

The point is, when has a senior GS member ever put in HARD WORK to get something? They don't, if they can avoid it. Yet here I am, doing exactly that. Why? To scam you, obviously...to scam you the hard way, instead of the several outlets I could be using to scam you without putting in even a tenth of the work this venture has taken (and will continue to take). A week for 1.5bil? puhlease. I know miners who make more than that for less effort.
It is possible that you really want to screw GS, I concede that posibiliy to you, but why would you give the money at the end instead of keeping it for yourself?
"A week for 1.5bil?"
I'm sure you said you wanted a little more than that.

As for being in GS making your word invalid... It doesn't really matter. Very few words around here has the value of 150B, don't try to use inverse discrimination, no word can secure that money without collateral or security measures aimed at protecting investors money, and the few who could do it can because they secured it previously with proper ways. I do not see this viable. Not because your bad reputation, but because your lack of. Securing 150B on your word alone must not be feasible as long as people has half a brain. Not for you, not for GS member, not for anyone. Just look at the neccesary effort made for the last titan IPO. Your plan fails because you can not provide any security for the money.

PS: In case you can not gather the money you want, what are you going to do? Go ahead without the money? Return the money and stay in GS? Leave GS peacefully? Grab what you can from GS and keep it to yourself?

Andron Blaxcor
Posted - 2009.10.09 00:47:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Yih
Edited by: Yih on 09/10/2009 00:19:12
Andron Blaxcor,

I myself have limited allegience to GS. Of course, here you have only my word, and since I'm from GS, that appears to automatically make my word invalid (which I cannot blame people for thinking.) Both VV and Cosmoray have been explained my reasonings behind what I'm doing, but it's still not something they can vouch for, just like neither of them would vouch for someone in any circumstance and say with absolution 'This person wont scam your ISK'. It's just not feasible for an Auditor to provide

...

Consider this 'fact' I am a senior member of GS.

As a senior member of GS, there are many 'scams' I could partake in that would generate me ISK faster, easier, and without scrutiny. Senior members generally have the most experience in this, after all.

Logically speaking, with such an avenue available, would I seriously spend a stupidly large quantity of time (4+ hours a day) answering questions in game, posting on the forums, writing up business plans, plotting, and generally doing HARD WORK? for this amount?

If I was some kiddy member in the corp, then it would make more sense. But I could make more ISK, for less work, sitting on my arse and doing nothing. Hell, I could start up an alt, throw some candy around, and get showered with ISK practically from the word go - a quick look through the MD forums shows an abundance of people willing to do just that.

The point is, when has a senior GS member ever put in HARD WORK to get something? They don't, if they can avoid it. Yet here I am, doing exactly that. Why? To scam you, obviously...to scam you the hard way, instead of the several outlets I could be using to scam you without putting in even a tenth of the work this venture has taken (and will continue to take). A week for 1.5bil? puhlease. I know miners who make more than that for less effort.



I understand that an audit cannot prove your allegiance one way or another. The fact remains that, is successful, you will end up holding investors' money and GS lot with no collateral (for reasons you have stated and I'm not disputing). You could chose to take from GS, MD or both. That is the thing you cannot prove before you do it.

I can see you've gone to a lot of work to pull this off and (real offering or scam) I admire your tenacity. However if, as you claim, you could make this amount of capital elsewhere wit much greater ease, why don't you and fund this yourself?

I can think of only two reasons. One is so, as a loyal GS member, you can scam MD and laugh about it later. The other is that you covet the fame and want to make GS squirm. My misgivings in the first case are obvious. In the second, it seems like an unnecessary risk by giving GS a warning that anything is being planned even if your identity is successfully concealed.

To summarise, why ask for MD funding when, as you admit, you could make the isk to fund this yourself with less effort and (from my perspective what appears to be) a smaller risk to the actual project and the ability to keep all the loot to yourself?

RAW23
Posted - 2009.10.09 00:48:00 - [135]
 

Edited by: RAW23 on 09/10/2009 00:51:42
Yih,

I don't quite follow your last post. If you are able to raise these types of funds by doing less work, even if it involves scamming, why don't you just do this?

Also, the 1.5bil you mention for a weeks work - if you get the investment you're looking for you will have got 150bil for your work. That's a rather different order of magnitude and pretty good pay for a few weeks, I'm guessing, even by the standards of top GS figures.

edit - Also, isn't it a mjor threat to operational security to announce which merc corps you hire?

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.10.09 01:12:00 - [136]
 

Quote:

I must admit though that I was surprised by how naive some of the new 'auditers' have been in this whole sorry story.



Both me and Cosmoray received a contact off his main, in my case I have everything saved and screen shotted.
But you have to have some better information proving the contrary, don't you?

Since me and Cosmoray received the same identical thing, this means you imply Cosmoray is a buffoon? Good to know, lucky us we got such authoritative judges to keep us honest.


Quote:

murkiness I referred to was more of a reference to the political distinction between this proposition and other offerings. In most MD offerings the only end goal is profit which is, relatively, easy to predict



Well, the guy wants to perform a sort of revenge / whatever action (whose exact nature does not impact on the financial offer: you have basically to toss him cash).
In exchange for cash, he promises to do stuff and then give it back in larger quantity.
Removing all of the roboant words and flashy pew pew and going to the meat, this is not really dissimilar to a trader asking for 3B so that he can give back 3.3B.

What finds me surprised (not that I endorse or not endorse the guy, it's academic interest) is how gullible investors can be and easily give out billions to people who - once again going to the meat - gave *less* information and *less* security.


Example: General Newbold.

G.N. asked for money. Not unlike this Yih alt here.
G.N. used an alt with no required skills. Not unlike this alt.
G.N. did not want to make his main public. Not unlike this alt.
G.N. never proved to even have a main. This alt proved to me and Cosmoray at least to be in control (can't tell if he IS really him) of a GS director.
G.N. cannot be called in cause, EVER. This alt gave out his name so if he scams he's going to have REAL trouble instead.


So what? People tossed billions like chips to General Newbold who gave out *less* information and traceability and cannot even be defaced on his main, but this other guy who gave out more information instead cannot even talk without being buried in dung?

Could someone bring here the logic? "Because he's a Goon"? So what, there's a super safe blue chip who recently admitted being a Goon alt. Moreover Goons capital ships builder issued a bond, got it filled and is paying dividends till now.

So it's not about the Goon thing.
What remains? A very poorly worded document that was better for CAOD than MD.

What if he manages to clean it up and make it decent? What if he brings him partial collateral?

And no, he did not ask me to audit him so ATM I have no interest at embellishing his face.


Quote:

I don't quite follow your last post. If you are able to raise these types of funds by doing less work, even if it involves scamming, why don't you just do this?



Because he's not just after money.


Quote:

That's a rather different order of magnitude and pretty good pay for a few weeks, I'm guessing, even by the standards of top GS figures



Yih of course did not share his exact plan with us but let's do a trivial 1 + 1. He's going to make use of mercs (as he revealed names).
Let me play devil's advocate. Since it's 0.0 galore, he has to pick mercs with 0.0 experience (not the idiots who can just play hi sec station games and have more fear of low sec (don't even mention 0.0) than a carebear.
Moreover it's trivial to predict heavy usage of capital ships, without those you can't even realistically pop a defended POS before you get destroyed by THE top dog alliance.

Add to this the fee. When for reasons too long to explain my corp aided a low sec merc corp with an handful of dreads, the pay was fat. Billions are about the beginning unit of measure to move those ships for a third party.

If anything, 150B could be a conservative estimate for the total running costs.

Yih
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.10.09 01:28:00 - [137]
 

To all three of the earlier posters.

I was really hoping to avoid that question, but I opened my mouth, so it's now my problem to deal with.

The reason is that those methods would involve scamming, either scamming newbies, or scamming older members, it would involve a scam. I, and the members involved, are not comfortable taking that route to secure these funds. We would all like to have a future in EVE at the end of this, and we are going to do so with most of GS hating us for our actions. We would rather not have the rest of the EVE Universe hating us also.

Besides, FanFest would suck that way.

Ultimately it boils down that we felt this was the fastest method to secure the funds in a legitimate way without overly increasing the risk to the operation. It had the added bonus of keeping the public eye on it, allowing for a greater reaction when it all goes off.

Krathos, With the business plan that is being written up I am looking to keep a portion (around 20-25%) with a third party, possibly multiple third parties. This will be a security deposit for the merc corps (and non-merc corps that are also being hired) in the case of loss of ships due to actions that are outside of the scope of what I have laid out. We are looking to hire people from everywhere, not just limiting ourselves to these corps.

In the event that what I am doing is a complete scam, you will have that 20-25% back. In the event that my action fails, causing the security to be used, and I'm trying to scam you, you get nothing back (but I also gain next to nothing). In the event that the action is a success, and I'm scamming, you get the 20-25% back. and finally, in the event that the action is a success, and I am NOT scamming, you get at a minimum I would imagine 160% back. Considering I have put an end date of this action at a maximum of 6 months, that's 10% return a month. A good amount, but hardly 'godly'. Of course, if the action is successful, I expect to be able to give a better return than 160%, but I'd like to cover my arse, and not offer the world to investors when I later find out I can't deliver that amount.

I've offered to cover you guys in the case of an unsuccessful action, but I realise that there, once again, you have only my word. I use the term 'risky' a lot. Because it is a risky venture, and I don't expect anyone to take it lightly.

Finally we are very very tentatively (read, probably will NOT happen) discussing the possibility of getting a third party to have a character in the corp, so that way he/she can receive most of the assets from word go. It's something that involves a lot of risk on our end, so it probably won't happen, but we are looking into that possibility, nonetheless.

Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
Posted - 2009.10.09 01:29:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Removing all of the roboant words and flashy pew pew and going to the meat, this is not really dissimilar to a trader asking for 3B so that he can give back 3.3B.
It is not the same, starting with the quantity, 3B != 150B, you know?. And how the money is made implies diferent risks.

Quote:
This alt gave out his name so if he scams he's going to have REAL trouble instead.
What possible REAL trouble could he have being one of the heads at GS? Tell me, please. I'm really curious.

Quote:
Example: General Newbold.
I missed that one. How much did he managed to steal?

Andron Blaxcor
Posted - 2009.10.09 01:29:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:

Quote:

murkiness I referred to was more of a reference to the political distinction between this proposition and other offerings. In most MD offerings the only end goal is profit which is, relatively, easy to predict



Well, the guy wants to perform a sort of revenge / whatever action (whose exact nature does not impact on the financial offer: you have basically to toss him cash).
In exchange for cash, he promises to do stuff and then give it back in larger quantity.
Removing all of the roboant words and flashy pew pew and going to the meat, this is not really dissimilar to a trader asking for 3B so that he can give back 3.3B.

What finds me surprised (not that I endorse or not endorse the guy, it's academic interest) is how gullible investors can be and easily give out billions to people who - once again going to the meat - gave *less* information and *less* security.



I'll reiterate again what I meant, with a similar investor asking for 3bn with a return of 10% he has a plan which will make him more than 10%. If he gets the funds he will carry out the plan whether he intends to scam or not, as he thinks this will make him isk. In this case, before considering whether Yih will run off with the loot, we need to ask if he will carry out the business plan (the theft in this case) at all. It's this extra layer of uncertainty that I refer to ask murkiness and seems to also cause others some trouble in trusting Yih: effectively they have to trust him twice: once to make the money and once to redistribute it.

As for why people trust Yih a lot less than other offerings (your refernces to N are valid in my opinion) I suspect a couple of reasons. Firstly, Yih is a Goon and Goons (in general) have a history of scamming. We don;t know about Yih's personal history of scamming inside or outside of Goons as we don't know who his main is. This will tarnish his credibility to a greater or lesser degree depending on your opinion. Like you I set little stock by it, others seem to think it's more significant.

Secondly, the bond is highly unusual and this has attracted a lot of interest and subsequently consideration and subsequently criticism. And once the doubters start, many jump on the bandwagon.

Thirdly, the plan seems very large and unlikely to succeed (taking a hefty chunk out of GS is certainly a daunting prospect even with significant resources). This is compounded by the fact that the plan has remained in all but total secrecy. It's like someone telling you they're going to fly to Mars and return with Martian gold but refusing to tell you how.

Finally, the way the proposal was born was poorly presented, convoluted (two threads, etc) and presented in a way we're not used to in MD.

I think that sums up the main reason why people are more sceptical of this than in cases like GN. Thing is, I can't be sure, one way or the other, what Yih pans to do. There is simply not enough information and nothing to force him to carry through on his word. And, with that degree of uncertainty, I and many otehrs will keep hold of our isk.

buttesauce
Posted - 2009.10.09 01:47:00 - [140]
 

I have pos roles in GF. If you really want to screw them over pay me and I will offline NOL.

Josh Silver
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2009.10.09 01:51:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Mme Pinkerton

A sufficiently hard failure would let some parts of management look extremely incompetent


Goonswarm directors, incompetent you say?

That's a quite disturbing turn of events.

segnod
Posted - 2009.10.09 02:13:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Yih
Edited by: Yih on 09/10/2009 00:19:12
Segnod,

Obviously I have no idea how GS is run, that's why both VV and cosmoray verified my identity, and further to that, they also added the information that I am in a very good position to do incredible damage to GS.




Originally by: segnod
man this is a p sweet ponzi scam I wish I had thought of it first :(

ElanMorin6
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2009.10.09 04:44:00 - [143]
 

Edited by: ElanMorin6 on 09/10/2009 04:50:41
Originally by: Brock Nelson
The one thing that I'm curious about is why Goonswarm hasn't said anything in this thread. This thread was started well over a week ago and they haven't noticed it yet?


He's threatening to steal something like half a month's worth of Goonswarm's R64 income, over a 6 month time period. I'm pretty sure the directorate loses or embezzles substantially more than that each month already. Razz

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
I am posting to confirm that indeed Yih either is or has full control over a Goon character in position to achieve devastating damage on the organization.

Originally by: cosmoray
I have been contacted by Yih's main, and I do believe that the actual theft is very possible.


I find it strange that neither of you mention being given a full API key in order to check his main's roles. Because without such a check you have no assurance at all he's in a position to do anything. Assuming breifly that neither of you are completely incompetent, this implies two things: first that Yih's main is not a full in-game director, second that you have no idea what roles Yih's main actually has in-game (since titles don't mean anything).

Essentially, all you can confirm is that Yih has a character in Goonfleet. Congrats, you've verified that the easiest corp in the game to infiltrate has been infiltrated.

Also, the idea of needing to hire mercs to attack Goonswarm (as opposed to just talking to the many major alliances that would like to see us ejected from 0.0 space) is comical in the extreme. If Yih had a workable plan he could quite easily find more than enough people willing to attack Goons for free.

Originally by: segnod
man this is a p sweet ponzi scam I wish I had thought of it first :(


++

Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
Posted - 2009.10.09 06:59:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: ElanMorin6
I find it strange that neither of you mention being given a full API key in order to check his main's roles. Because without such a check you have no assurance at all he's in a position to do anything. Assuming breifly that neither of you are completely incompetent, this implies two things: first that Yih's main is not a full in-game director, second that you have no idea what roles Yih's main actually has in-game (since titles don't mean anything).
Maybe he is publicly known as a GS director, one of the main public faces...

On another issue... has the disband button already been fixed? if not, it is better for you to use it now, I think that was the only way to destroy big alliances.

Otto Durako
Arktech Industrial Complex
Posted - 2009.10.09 07:14:00 - [145]
 

Elan, no disrespect, but it seems denial is a fine attribute of you. Though I believe you to be quite right about the other alliances wanting Goonies taken down, maybe they are just as skeptical as everyone else that this endeavor will ever get off the ground.

A smart tactician would weigh the options of an all out war or a small covert operation. While an all out war would benefit Yih's plan, creating diversions and plenty of room to reason for disappearance of ships and funds, it does not exactly make plenty of friends in the end as the saboteurs would have to fight both sides...thus nulling their attempts to rectify their past deeds.

Your denial is either genuine or it is fear, you deny that which you cannot prevent from happening. Like in real life many people fear death strictly because they cannot stop it from happening. Either way it means nothing, regardless of the outcome of Yih's operation there will be a shift of power in some manner or another. If a high ranking official, several in fact, are having second thoughts about the current GS power house then there is in fact pure signs of dissent, fracture, and collapse on the horizon. Whether that comes from civil war or mega-corp conflict it seems you have no control.

Just realize Elan, rats always flee the sinking ship...
Cool

ElanMorin6
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2009.10.09 08:04:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Krathos Morpheus
On another issue... has the disband button already been fixed?


It was never broken in the first place.

Originally by: Otto Durako
Elan, no disrespect, but it seems denial is a fine attribute of you. Though I believe you to be quite right about the other alliances wanting Goonies taken down, maybe they are just as skeptical as everyone else that this endeavor will ever get off the ground.

A smart tactician would weigh the options of an all out war or a small covert operation. While an all out war would benefit Yih's plan, creating diversions and plenty of room to reason for disappearance of ships and funds, it does not exactly make plenty of friends in the end as the saboteurs would have to fight both sides...thus nulling their attempts to rectify their past deeds.

Your denial is either genuine or it is fear, you deny that which you cannot prevent from happening. Like in real life many people fear death strictly because they cannot stop it from happening. Either way it means nothing, regardless of the outcome of Yih's operation there will be a shift of power in some manner or another. If a high ranking official, several in fact, are having second thoughts about the current GS power house then there is in fact pure signs of dissent, fracture, and collapse on the horizon. Whether that comes from civil war or mega-corp conflict it seems you have no control.

Just realize Elan, rats always flee the sinking ship...
Cool


this is a pretty good troll. Kudos to you sir.

Otto Durako
Arktech Industrial Complex
Posted - 2009.10.09 09:42:00 - [147]
 

Well thank you sir. Though I never intend to troll...I just seem to always come off that way.

Curiosity has the best of me Elan, what exactly is your POV on this situation? Or on the current stability of your...inglorious alliance?

(Be thankful we aren't talking politics...or anything Obama related....dangerous grounds)

Cool

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.10.09 09:47:00 - [148]
 

Quote:

It is not the same, starting with the quantity, 3B != 150B, you know?. And how the money is made implies diferent risks.



This is a classic false in ideology.

Exactly like a coin that landed 90% on one side, has still 50% probability to keep landing on that side again.
Exactly like a 3rd party service where the owner got 20 trillions isk on his name is not *forcibly* safer to use than one who only got 10B (F90 case comes to mind).

Exactly like the above, scamming 3B is not something making scamming forcibly less probable than 150B. The tentation is higher for 150B, but the guy who scams 150B because he's using a throwaway alt would also scam 3B, because what he loses is exactly what? A throwaway alt.


You investor guys try to self convince and reassure yourselves that smaller amounts and better written plans help avoiding scams in ANY way. No it does not. It will only reduce the compounded capital drawdown, not your personal risk.

A guy scamming 6B off two investors who signed 3B each, is the same risk for you than a scammer robbing 150B off 50 investors who signed 3B each.
The BANG! effect is louder but guess what? You lost 3B in both cases. To a corrupt throwaway alt who can use 3B, 6B or 150B because the result is that he'll just biomass and keep the cash and start a new scam tomorrow.



Quote:

And how the money is made implies diferent risks



Same as above.

Tell me how risking money in a battle or whatever he'll do is riskier than a trader guy getting a trivial 3B with a bond, buying 3B of stock, undocking off Jita and getting suicide ganked.


Quote:

What possible REAL trouble could he have being one of the heads at GS? Tell me, please. I'm really curious



Before you'll throw money he'll have to make arrangements with neutral third parties and divulge details that would make the GS hierarchy kick him.
This makes me think that if he's out to scam, he's doing it for "his own retirement plan out of GS" not for GS.


Quote:

I find it strange that neither of you mention being given a full API key in order to check his main's roles. Because without such a check you have no assurance at all he's in a position to do anything. Assuming breifly that neither of you are completely incompetent, this implies two things: first that Yih's main is not a full in-game director, second that you have no idea what roles Yih's main actually has in-game (since titles don't mean anything).



There are some cases where you can determine what a person can do by using different ways than using an API or a simple "show info" (besides giving the API is still being discussed about).


Quote:

Though I believe you to be quite right about the other alliances wanting Goonies taken down, maybe they are just as skeptical as everyone else that this endeavor will ever get off the ground.



GS got multiple spies infiltrated in each major alliance, some at director level. Any move would be reported early and easily countered.

Quote:

If a high ranking official, several in fact, are having second thoughts about the current GS power house then there is in fact pure signs of dissent, fracture, and collapse on the horizon. Whether that comes from civil war or mega-corp conflict it seems you have no control.

Just realize Elan, rats always flee the sinking ship...



Problem the guy you reply to does not get, is that GS is not just a bunch of bees mindlessy swarming about. There's a group of high rankers who have executive and operational skills rivalling the other top alliances. Those guys are currently losing motivation.

Because GS claimed they want to ruin YOUR game, but in the end they ruined THEIR game. There's nothing worse for a soldier than being forced sitting at a chair or taking NAPs (pun intended :D).

Mme got it right here.

Koerner
Posted - 2009.10.09 09:49:00 - [149]
 

Love is blind, and apparantly MD is in love with the destruction of GS.

Seriously? Have otherwise sane MD people here lost their minds?? Think about it, the only reason you people are going along with this is because Yih is offering you the Holy Grail of investments: the defeat of GS.

You are only buying into this because YOU WANT TO BELIEVE IT COULD BE TRUE. Stop and think about it for a minute. How can anyone with any common sense expect to accomplish a massive alliance-crippling theft after publically announcing it?? It's nuts. Did the turncoat in the BOB alliance publically announce his betrayal before commiting it?? Of course not, because then it likely would not have happened.

If Yih actually were in a position to single-handedly destroy the GS alliance from within, and he wanted to do it, fame and glory would be his for years to come. Why jeopardize all this by revealing anything? If Yih is legitimate, then the only reason to reveal the plan is to have more fun destroying his own alliance, because he is one of the "big dogs" and could not be stopped. But then, if this were true, it begs the question, why would he need 150B? A GS "boss man" would have more money than he could shake a stick at.

Don't be fools. This alleged GS director is only doing all this for the personal satisfaction of "tricking the brainiacs." And he is only getting this far because MD egos want nothing more in the world than to think they had a hand in the destruction of GS.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.10.09 10:02:00 - [150]
 

Sigh. I now understand Shar and why he finds MD getting more and more worthless to post on.
And since I am not involved in Yih plan nor I am going to benefit off it, I think I'll let the <censored> posts like the one above do their course. There's no hope anyway.

Just look at the continued "I admit my main is GS" investments offered by a long term blue chip or the big GS capitals building investment initiative that got sold out better than many other investments.
Curious details: I have money invested in that GS capital program. Oh noes we are all out to get them!


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