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marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2009.10.22 21:27:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: marakor on 22/10/2009 22:02:46

Blaster BS have been gimped for a very long time and with the overpoweredness of lasers this has been highlighted.

Blaster BS were supposed to be the 1 v 1 BS at close range but with the CCP idea of making solo BS pvp a thiong of the past they are now way under powered.

1. A poor EHP tank relative to what is available to amarr while needing to operate at way closer range than amaar ships is absurd.

2. Marginally better DPS at a absurdly small range and then being out ranged as well as out damaged for a vast amount.


Get your finger out and fix it CCP its been way too long.


ArrowArrowArrow

I also found this little gem.


A standard mega and abaddon fit for RR ops AND HOW THEY COMPARE.

The mega starts with 7 guns and RR with 832 gun dps and 300 drone dps to be assigned.

300 thermal drone dmg from gaurd less 75.7% = 72.9 DPS.
482.56 kinetic damage from its guns less 71.9% = 135.6 DPS.
394.44 thermal damage from its guns less 75.7% = 84.9 DPS.

THE MEGA GETS A TOTAL OF 293.4 MAX DPS AT 4.5KM vs THE ABADDON.

4. The mega has 73.4 em, 65.5 thermal resists and the abaddon does 58% more EM dmg with its guns than thermal so including the drones and after the megas resists:


The abaddon starts with 7 guns and RR with 802 gun dps and 180 drone dps to be assigned.

180 thr drone dmg less 65.5% = 62.1 DPS.
465.16 gun em damage less 73.4% = 123.8 DPS.
336.84 gun th damage less 65.5% = 116.2 DPS.
THE ABAD GETS A TOTAL OF 302.1 MAX DPS AT 15KM vs THE MEGA.


THE ABAD GETS A TOTAL OF 302.1 MAX DPS AFTER RESISTS OUT TO 15KM vs THE MEGA.
THE MEGA GETS A TOTAL OF 293.4 MAX DPS AFTER RESISTS OUT TO 4.5KM vs THE ABAD
.

The mega actually has 3% LESS DPS when each ships resists are taken into account with 300% less available range (and thats against armour dont get started on how fast shields will drop vs lasers), and the mega has a WEAK 52.2% explosive resist hole and also has 18% LESS EHP.

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.10.22 22:50:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 22/10/2009 22:52:14
Originally by: Seishi Maru

Put the damage againdt a standard resist of 09 in 10 targets and lasers loose a lot of their OMFG factor. THey are still superior.. but the "real scenario"argument that blaster pilots are complaining must be modelled includign that for a fair view.



Roughly half of the ships flown in pvp in this game are shield tanked. That includes 3/8 of the battleships, most Battlecruisers, HACs, Recons, Logistics, and cruisers and a lot of the AFs.

Interceptors and SBs usually are not tanked (or speed/cloak tanked as you prefer).

Against these ships, lasers are EVEN better than the graphics may make you believe.

Add that to the fact that Armor tanked battleships have a lot of shield and hull, which are a significant part of their HP and EVEN armor tanked battleships are not that good against lasers...

Therefore asking for comparisons against armor resists is not only fallacious, but stupid as well.

Quote:

I still think the only thing needed is to remove the trackign boost that pulse lasers got at revelations II. Pulse lasers with scorch SHOULD really rule everything over 20 km. Also MF should be very strong at 15 km. But they should be fairly easy to outtrack close range.

An armageddon with MP II and MF should be hitting CRAP of for example a typhoon rolling at 4-5 km.


That is a good start. But I think scorch should have a 50% trackign penalty (instead of the current 25%) in addition to that.


Norris Packard
Wings of Redemption
Black Flag Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.23 04:53:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 22/10/2009 22:52:14
Originally by: Seishi Maru

Put the damage againdt a standard resist of 09 in 10 targets and lasers loose a lot of their OMFG factor. THey are still superior.. but the "real scenario"argument that blaster pilots are complaining must be modelled includign that for a fair view.



Roughly half of the ships flown in pvp in this game are shield tanked. That includes 3/8 of the battleships, most Battlecruisers, HACs, Recons, Logistics, and cruisers and a lot of the AFs.

Interceptors and SBs usually are not tanked (or speed/cloak tanked as you prefer).

Against these ships, lasers are EVEN better than the graphics may make you believe.

Add that to the fact that Armor tanked battleships have a lot of shield and hull, which are a significant part of their HP and EVEN armor tanked battleships are not that good against lasers...

Therefore asking for comparisons against armor resists is not only fallacious, but stupid as well.

Quote:

I still think the only thing needed is to remove the trackign boost that pulse lasers got at revelations II. Pulse lasers with scorch SHOULD really rule everything over 20 km. Also MF should be very strong at 15 km. But they should be fairly easy to outtrack close range.

An armageddon with MP II and MF should be hitting CRAP of for example a typhoon rolling at 4-5 km.


That is a good start. But I think scorch should have a 50% trackign penalty (instead of the current 25%) in addition to that.




All other long ranged ammo has a 25% tracking penalty not really fair to change that. Changing the pulse tracking for all the guns would be a better fix but I dont think thats quite the problem. The problem I have is that pulse lasers do as much as blasters in DPS.

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.10.23 05:09:00 - [124]
 

Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 23/10/2009 05:08:53
Originally by: Norris Packard

All other long ranged ammo has a 25% tracking penalty not really fair to change that. Changing the pulse tracking for all the guns would be a better fix but I dont think thats quite the problem. The problem I have is that pulse lasers do as much as blasters in DPS.


25% of trackign reduction for an ammo that operates at 45km is not the same of 25% of tracking reduction for an ammo that operates at 20 km.

Ammo penalties don't need to be equal. Hail, for example has a 50% falloff reduction in addition to the 50% optimal reduction as penalty and Conflag does not. That happens because you need to apply penalties to falloff to make them meaningful in the former and you don't in the later.

EFT Worrier
Posted - 2009.10.23 07:43:00 - [125]
 

Maybe a large buff to Void is the way to go... and normalise/buff all ammo switching times to within a few seconds of each other instead of 0sec/10sec?

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2009.10.23 09:54:00 - [126]
 



Pulse need a decrease in dmg and or range, blasters need a increase in dmg and or range its that simple and skirting the issue with irrelavant and pointless ideas is stupid.

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.10.23 10:13:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: marakor


Pulse need a decrease in dmg and or range, blasters need a increase in dmg and or range its that simple and skirting the issue with irrelavant and pointless ideas is stupid.


nope.. you are the one with a stupid approach. Giving more range to blasters and less range to pulses is the very essence of the homogenization of everything in game into the same very things. Destroy flavor! Destroys game!

What we need IS different ideas that can balance things whiel keeping each weapon system with its own flavors.

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2009.10.23 14:13:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: marakor on 23/10/2009 14:15:20

Originally by: Seishi Maru
Originally by: marakor


Pulse need a decrease in dmg and or range, blasters need a increase in dmg and or range its that simple and skirting the issue with irrelavant and pointless ideas is stupid.


nope.. you are the one with a stupid approach. Giving more range to blasters and less range to pulses is the very essence of the homogenization of everything in game into the same very things. Destroy flavor! Destroys game!


As per usual one person decides that reducing the vast gap between the systems is the same are totally removing the gap and has to post a comment about "making everthing the same, destruction of eve WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"Rolling Eyes.

Congratulation on it being you.......again.


A BS with the best EHP tank, almost equal best DMG within every other races very small optimal, a instant reload, plus a VASTLY larger optimal range is absurd and totaly unbalanced, especially when you are talking about battleships that have already been limited in target selection and combat options over the last few years.

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.10.25 17:40:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: marakor
Get your finger out and fix it CCP its been way too long.

No, you need to get your finger out and use a better Mega setup.

And not only that, your comparing a tier 3 ship with better stats to a Mega that is tier 2 that have worser stats.

Ok, if you really want to see why i would use a Mega over an Abaddon, then look under and use this setup.

Mega.

High-Slot:

7 x Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
1 x Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction

Med-Slot:

1 x 100MN MicroWarpdrive II
1 x Warp Disruptor II
1 x Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
1 x Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

Low-Slot:

1 x Damage Control II
2 x Amarr Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
1 x Adaptive Nano Plating II
2 x 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1 x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Rigs:

3 x Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Drones:

5 x Ogre II

This setup need a -3% CPU usage on turrets implant to fit. And this setup have 138739 EHP. 28594 Armor HP. 79.4% EM, 73.3% Thermal and Kinetic and 63% Explosive resists. This setup also does 995 DPS. The capacitor with the Medium Capacitor Booster lasts for 1 min and 21 secs.

The Mega with the Neutron Blaster Cannon II have those stats:

Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L: 32.2 Kinetic damage & 23 Thermal damage = 55,2 damage in total.

Activation: 13.65 Cap.
Duration: 5.07465 Sec.
Optimal: 4.5 km.
Falloff: 12.5 km.
Damage Mod: 9.13172.
Tracking: 0.07422.

Now to the Abaddon.

High-Slot:

7 x Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
1 x Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction

Med-Slot:

1 x 100MN MicroWarpdrive II
1 x Warp Disruptor II
1 x Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
1 x Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

Low-Slot:

1 x Damage Control II
2 x Amarr Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
2 x 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
2 x Heat Sink II

Rigs:

3 x Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Drones:

3x Ogre II

This setup fits without any implants. This setup have 176279 EHP. 32128 Armor HP. 82.7% EM, 77.5% Thermal, 74% Kinetic and 72.3% Explosive resists. This setup does 903 DPS with 2x heat Sink II's. The Capacitor with a Heavy Capacitor Booster II lasts for 1 min and 27 secs.

The Abaddon with the Mega Pulse Laser II's have those stats:

Amarr Navy Multifrequency L: 32.2 EM damage & 23 Thermal damage = 55,2 damage in total.

Activation: 30 Cap.
Duration: 4.61155 Sec.
Optimal: 15 km.
Falloff: 10 km.
Damage Mod: 8.50746.
Tracking: 0.04219.

Ok, there is the stats you need to know. Now i just need to calculate the stats with the damage mods, ROF, resists and so on to get the real stats.

Then, lets start with the Mega.

The Mega with Neutron Blaster Cannon II & Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L + drones does this.

32.2 Kinetic damage - 74% Kinetic resist the Abaddon have = 8,372 damage
23 Thermal damage - 77.5% Thermal resist the Abaddon have = 5,175 damage
Rate Of Fire: 5.07465
Damage Mod: 9.13172

5 x Ogre II drones = 317 DPS. Ogre II does 48 Thermal damage. So 48 x 5 Thermal damage - 77.5% Thermal resist on the Abaddon = 54 damage.

So in total, this will get to this: 8,372 damage + 5,175 damage x 9.13172 damage mod + 54 drone damage / 5.07465 sec ROF = 35,01865366872592.

Now to the Abaddon.

The Abaddon with Mega Pulse Laser II & Amarr Navy Multifrequency L + drones does this:

32.2 EM damage - 79.4% EM resist the Mega have = 6,6332 damage
23 Thermal damage - 73.3% Thermnal resist the Mega have = 6,141 damage
Rate Of Fire: 4.61155
Damage Mod: 8.50746

3x Ogre II drones = 190 DPS. Ogre II does 48 Thermal damage. So 48 x 3 Thermal damage - 73.3% Thermal resist on the Mega = 38,448 damage.

So in total, this will get to this: 6,6332 damage + 6,141 damage x 8.50746 damage mod + 38,448 drone damage / 4.61155 sec ROF = 31,90337208357277.

Will continue on next reply.

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.10.25 17:45:00 - [130]
 

Edited by: NightmareX on 25/10/2009 17:49:13
Then we have to calculate this: 31,90337208357277 damage the Abaddon have + 9.76% = 35,01714119892947. That's about the same number as the damage the Mega have. So yeah, the Megathron with 1 x damage mod does 9.76% more DPS than the Abaddon with 2x damage mods after the resists.

Now, lets see how much armor both of the ships have. Abaddon have 32128 Armor HP. Then we take 32128 Armor HP - 11% = 28593,92. And that's about the same as the Megathron have in Armor HP.

So yeah, the Megathron does 9.76% more DPS than the Abaddon, while the Abaddon have 11% more Armor HP than the Mega. So it's pretty equal here tbh.

I rather say the Megathron does a fantastic job here when you compare it to a tier 3 ship with 25% more resists than the Mega.

Yes, both of those 2 ships with those setups are meant for RR BS gangs.

And don't even try to tell me that bwahahaha, if you take the LRAR away from the Abaddon and put in the 8th gun, then the Abaddon will do more DPS and have 11% more Armor HP than the Mega, because without an LRAR on your Abaddons in your gang, your going to lose BAAAAAAAAAAAAADLY to the gang with the Megathrons that have LRAR's fitted.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.10.25 17:52:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: NightmareX
I rather say the Megathron does a fantastic job here when you compare it to a tier 3 ship with 25% more resists than the Mega.


The Mega does passably, but only if you assume you are shooting armor tanked battleships that magically start in your optimal. The Abaddon can be set up to get blaster tracking + damage and *STILL* have more HP, and it can be set up to deal fantastic damage at range.

The only reason it's not WTFBBQOP is because of cap issues... which are largely mitigated by cap boosters.

-Liang

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.10.25 17:59:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: NightmareX on 25/10/2009 18:30:24
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: NightmareX
I rather say the Megathron does a fantastic job here when you compare it to a tier 3 ship with 25% more resists than the Mega.


The Mega does passably, but only if you assume you are shooting armor tanked battleships that magically start in your optimal. The Abaddon can be set up to get blaster tracking + damage and *STILL* have more HP, and it can be set up to deal fantastic damage at range.

The only reason it's not WTFBBQOP is because of cap issues... which are largely mitigated by cap boosters.

-Liang

Yeah that's true.

But after what i can remember from when i was in Tri, when we was out in RR BS gangs, we always warped inside 5 km range to the enemies. If we was at a gate waiting for the enemies to jump in, then most of the Megathrons had Null L fitted in the guns, because in most cases, the enemies will MWD back to the gate and jump out if they can.

And when the enemies goes right towards the gate, then the tracking penatly on Null doesn't matter, because they are going right towards your Megathron to then.

And then eventually change to Antimatter L when they are close to the gate.

But then, a gang that is sitting at a gate in RR range to each others, will always have an advantage over the players / gangs that are jumping in on us at a gate.

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2009.10.25 20:11:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: marakor on 25/10/2009 20:38:15





Originally by: NightmareX

High-Slot:

7 x Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
1 x Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction

Med-Slot:

1 x 100MN MicroWarpdrive II
1 x Warp Disruptor II
1 x Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
1 x Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

Low-Slot:

1 x Damage Control II
2 x Amarr Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
1 x Adaptive Nano Plating II
2 x 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1 x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Rigs:

3 x Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Drones:

5 x Ogre II




Fitting a med cap injector on a blaster mega that has a mwd on it as well as RR is just stupid for a lot of reasons but il just point out the blindingly obvious one:-

The blaster mega needs to either mwd into range of each primary or use null (for crappy dmg output that is a lot less than your claiming in you 9.76% comments, 871 dps with null if my figures are right and still less range than the MF abaddon)or be magically always in the perfect optimal from every hostile ship.


I see you realised this in a later post and tried to make excusses for it by claiming to "always" warp into a hostile fleet or "always" be on a gate ect ect.

All in all it seems the restrictions on megas needing to be always in their awfully small optimal range or do sucky dmg with null shows just how much versatility they actually lack, coupled with their need to use faction modules as well as being limited to a med cap injector clearly shows how badly they need help.


Still it would not be a blaster thread without your absurd input and inexperianced fitting ideas and laughable comments on pvp in a ship you have never even flown on the main server.

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2009.10.25 20:23:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: marakor on 25/10/2009 20:43:59
Originally by: Liang Nuren


The only reason it's not WTFBBQOP is because of cap issues... which are largely mitigated by cap boosters.

-Liang


Comments on "cap issues" are well and good if the mega was not fitted with a RR, MWD and only a med injector lol.

Originally by: NightmareX
So yeah, the Megathron does 9.76% more DPS than the Abaddon, while the Abaddon have 11% more Armor HP than the Mega. So it's pretty equal here tbh.


With those setups only 9.76% more dps while the abaddon has 11% more hp and much better overll resists......OH yea and that 9.76 more dps is at a range of 0-4.5km while the abaddon gets its dps at 0-15 with MF (FYI thats 300% more range).




Of course the abaddon also has the option of dropping a plate fitting a third HS and then pretty much matching the megas dmg, still having better EHP and still having 300% more range.

But hey lets ignore those inconvienient details cos in your delusions every ship in eve is always at 4.5km from a blaster mega..........LaughingWink

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.10.25 21:01:00 - [135]
 

Edited by: NightmareX on 25/10/2009 21:08:33
Originally by: marakor
Edited by: marakor on 25/10/2009 20:35:25

Originally by: NightmareX

High-Slot:

7 x Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
1 x Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction

Med-Slot:

1 x 100MN MicroWarpdrive II
1 x Warp Disruptor II
1 x Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
1 x Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

Low-Slot:

1 x Damage Control II
2 x Amarr Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
1 x Adaptive Nano Plating II
2 x 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1 x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Rigs:

3 x Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Drones:

5 x Ogre II




Fitting a med cap injector on a blaster mega that has a mwd on it as well as RR is just stupid for a lot of reasons but il just point out the blindingly obvious one:-

The blaster mega needs to either mwd into range of each primary or use null (for crappy dmg output that is a lot less than your claiming in you 9.76% comments)or be magically always in the perfect optimal from every hostile ship.


I see you realised this in a later post and tried to make excusses for it by claiming to "always" warp into a hostile fleet or "always" be on a gate ect ect.

All in all it seems the restrictions on megas needing to be always in their awfully small optimal range or do sucky dmg with null shows just how much versatility they actually lack, coupled with their need to use faction modules as well as being limited to a med cap injector clearly shows how badly they need help.


Still it would not be a blaster thread without your absurd input and inexperianced fitting ideas and laughable comments on pvp in a ship you have never even flown on the main server.

Wow, what a rubbish reply.

Is those kinds of replys the daily memes that are going around on this forum?.

Anyways, do you know how much Cap an Abaddon use with the guns alone within 46 seconds?

Ok, lets do some more calculation. 30 cap per MPL II on Abaddon. And 30 cap per gun x 7 guns = 210 cap usage every 4.6 sec that is the ROF on the Abaddon.

Now take 4.6 sec ROF x 10 that is 46 seconds. Then the Abaddon will use 2100 cap only by guns every 46 seconds.

Now to the Megathron. 13.65 cap usage each gun every 5 secs that is the ROF on the Mega. And 13.65 cap usage per gun x 7 guns = 95,55 cap usage every 5 seconds. And then take 95.55 x 10 = 955.5 cap usage on the Megathron every 50 secs only by guns.

Now within those 50 secs you can then MWD 2 times on top of shooting all the times, because each MWD cycle use 594 cap. And 594 x 2 = 1188. And then we take 1188 + 955.5 cap useage on the guns on the Mega = 2143,5 capacitor used within 50 secs. And this is 4 secs longer than the Abaddon usage after 46 seconds.

So after all, the Megathron use a little lesser cap than the Abaddon that way.

Now if the Abaddon have to use the MWD, the Cap goes much much faster om nom nom nom on the Abaddon LOL's.

And if you didn't know. You only use a Heavy Capacitor Booster on a Mega incase your getting neuted. If your not getting neuted, you don't have any problems to keep your cap up with a Medium Capacitor Booster.

Yes, Blasters have very short range. But does your 300% more range on your Mega Pulse Lasers helps any when the gang with lots of Mega's are sitting 3-4 km from you after they have warped in on top of your ass and are ROFL'ing at you and then enjoys the fireworks when your Abaddons goes kaboom?.

So super duper yey for having 300% more range on Lasers when the 300% more range is a total waste when the other gang with lots of RR Blaster Megas are 3-4 km from you. LOL, this oh 300% more range on Laser thingie also must be the daily meme. LOL, those memes are starting to get old and boring.

Anyways, if we look at the other way, if your in a gang with lots of Geddons and Abaddons. Then your not so stupid and warps right on top of another gang that have lots of RR Megas. If you want to have an advantage, then warp into 30+ km then.

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2009.10.25 21:13:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: NightmareX
Edited by: NightmareX on 25/10/2009 21:06:22
Originally by: marakor
Edited by: marakor on 25/10/2009 20:35:25

Originally by: NightmareX

High-Slot:

7 x Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
1 x Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction

Med-Slot:

1 x 100MN MicroWarpdrive II
1 x Warp Disruptor II
1 x Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
1 x Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

Low-Slot:

1 x Damage Control II
2 x Amarr Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
1 x Adaptive Nano Plating II
2 x 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1 x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Rigs:

3 x Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Drones:

5 x Ogre II




Fitting a med cap injector on a blaster mega that has a mwd on it as well as RR is just stupid for a lot of reasons but il just point out the blindingly obvious one:-

The blaster mega needs to either mwd into range of each primary or use null (for crappy dmg output that is a lot less than your claiming in you 9.76% comments)or be magically always in the perfect optimal from every hostile ship.


I see you realised this in a later post and tried to make excusses for it by claiming to "always" warp into a hostile fleet or "always" be on a gate ect ect.

All in all it seems the restrictions on megas needing to be always in their awfully small optimal range or do sucky dmg with null shows just how much versatility they actually lack, coupled with their need to use faction modules as well as being limited to a med cap injector clearly shows how badly they need help.


Still it would not be a blaster thread without your absurd input and inexperianced fitting ideas and laughable comments on pvp in a ship you have never even flown on the main server.



Anyways, do you know how much Cap an Abaddon use with the guns alone within 46 seconds?


Considering the megas have to MWD a lot and the abaddons have the range so they hardly need to move id say that i know a med cap injector is a crappy choice for a RR blaster ship, but then ive flown blaster megas with RR while you have not.


But then you always make the same mistake with your scenarios, because you have never flown one you never know just how poorly they perform asnd how much you need to move around to get into the range your claiming they seem to be born into.....Rolling Eyes


Get some experiance and you will come back agreeing with those of us who have some instead of needing to post stupid fits along with rare and limited scenarios.

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2009.10.25 21:28:00 - [137]
 

Get some experiance and you will come back agreeing with those of us who have some instead of needing to post stupid fits along with rare and limited scenarios.

After all you pointed out yourself that at the blaster ships optimal they were close to equal due to the abaddons more hp vs the megas more dmg.....but you forgot to include the abaddons 300% more range and the megas MWD butchering its cap.

You use 50 seconds in your cap usage scenario but as you mentioned earlier the mega would be cap dead after another 30 or so seconds while the abaddon will not have needed to use its mwd so will have plenty of cap left over.

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.10.25 21:36:00 - [138]
 

Edited by: NightmareX on 25/10/2009 21:48:53
Originally by: marakor
Get some experiance and you will come back agreeing with those of us who have some instead of needing to post stupid fits along with rare and limited scenarios.

After all you pointed out yourself that at the blaster ships optimal they were close to equal due to the abaddons more hp vs the megas more dmg.....but you forgot to include the abaddons 300% more range and the megas MWD butchering its cap.

You use 50 seconds in your cap usage scenario but as you mentioned earlier the mega would be cap dead after another 30 or so seconds while the abaddon will not have needed to use its mwd so will have plenty of cap left over.

Will never happen. Because after all those 4 years i have been using a Megathron in absolutely every possible way you can imagine on Sisi, then no, a Megathon works with no problems with a Medium Capacitor Booster until you get neuted.

And no, the Mega would not be cap dead. The Abaddon would be cap dead long way before the Megathron if the Abaddon have to MWD on top of shooting. And if your in an Abaddon in 0.0 space. I can tell you right now that your going to be 110% dead in your Abaddon if your not using your MWD alot there.
Originally by: marakor
Considering the megas have to MWD a lot and the abaddons have the range so they hardly need to move id say that i know a med cap injector is a crappy choice for a RR blaster ship, but then ive flown blaster megas with RR while you have not.

But then you always make the same mistake with your scenarios, because you have never flown one you never know just how poorly they perform asnd how much you need to move around to get into the range your claiming they seem to be born into.....Rolling Eyes

Get some experiance and you will come back agreeing with those of us who have some instead of needing to post stupid fits along with rare and limited scenarios.

Inappropriate content removed.Applebabe

And when you say the Megas have to MWD alot. Can i ask what kind of failure noob RR BS gang you are in if you have to MWD alot around?. Because if your out and MWD'ing around, your not gonna be in RR range. And yeah, you know what that means?.

Now i'm just gonna say it, because it's the truth. marakor, you really need to use your Mega much much better, because after how you say you use it, it's not in an effective way. Not even near effective either.

Noobs + Megathrons = Epic noob whining about Blasters sucking.

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2009.10.25 21:49:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: NightmareX

Will never happen. Because after all those 4 years i have been using a Megathron in absolutely every possible way you can imagine on Sisi, then no, a Megathon works with no problems with a Medium Capacitor Booster until you get neuted.


1. If it was as good as you claim you would use it on the main server.....but you never have ever.

2. All you ever do on sissi is get your faction ship moved to FD- after every update and then try to show off in 1 v 1 fights.

3. You do not use a standard mega fit on sissi you pimp it.

4. You only learned how to fit a standard mega for RR combat on topics like this over the last 12 months or so, and you still try to dream up fits with faction mods that nobody uses on the main server.

5. You have not even come close to testing "every possable way" a mega can be used and even if you had the 4 years XP you claim to have ERVE has changed so much over the years most of it would be worthless.



And mostly the fact is that ALL the players in this thread saying that blasters/blaster BS need fixing ALL have plenty of blaster BS kills on the main server, while all you have is your usual unprovable claims about how you have "tested everything" and lets face it your a proven liar on multiple occasions.

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.10.25 21:54:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: NightmareX on 25/10/2009 21:56:30
Originally by: marakor
Originally by: NightmareX

Will never happen. Because after all those 4 years i have been using a Megathron in absolutely every possible way you can imagine on Sisi, then no, a Megathon works with no problems with a Medium Capacitor Booster until you get neuted.


1. If it was as good as you claim you would use it on the main server.....but you never have ever.

2. All you ever do on sissi is get your faction ship moved to FD- after every update and then try to show off in 1 v 1 fights.

3. You do not use a standard mega fit on sissi you pimp it.

4. You only learned how to fit a standard mega for RR combat on topics like this over the last 12 months or so, and you still try to dream up fits with faction mods that nobody uses on the main server.

5. You have not even come close to testing "every possable way" a mega can be used and even if you had the 4 years XP you claim to have ERVE has changed so much over the years most of it would be worthless.



And mostly the fact is that ALL the players in this thread saying that blasters/blaster BS need fixing ALL have plenty of blaster BS kills on the main server, while all you have is your usual unprovable claims about how you have "tested everything" and lets face it your a proven liar on multiple occasions.

Inappropriate content removed.Applebabe

1. Do i actually need to use one Mega just to find out it's stats?.

2. What does the faction ships have to do with me using a Mega on Sisi for 4 years to do?.

3. Dude, there is a big difference between a Navy Mega and a normal Mega. ROFL, your an idiot.

4. I learned how to fit an RR Mega by trying out setups my self on Sisi and then find out what setup that works best.

5. How do you know this?. Yes i use a Megathron everytime i'm on Sisi, so saying i haven't is a lie. I know i have used it in every possible ways you can use it in on Sisi within those 4 years. Remember, some few years ago, i was living on Sisi to test out everything, including mining.

And to the last thing, that can be number 6?. Ok. now, if you haven't seen it, there is very few peoples in this topic with maxed skills for a Megathron and Blasters that says they need to be boosted. Yes i'm maxed for the Mega and Large Blasters.

So, what's your next excuses?. I'm waiting for the next funny and most idiotic excuses ever again from you now again.

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2009.10.25 22:54:00 - [141]
 

Edited by: marakor on 25/10/2009 22:55:29
Originally by: NightmareX


No Electric wont come back any faster, because he comes back when the school / studie is over and not before that.


Yea im sure it just a coincedence that he appears every time you get booted from here for your pitiful trolling and disapears when you return.LaughingLaughingLaughing



Anyway now the troll has gone we can get back to the matter at hand.

In his ignorance he has shown many problems:-

1. The RR and mwd blaster ships are forced to use really butchers their cap and uttelry limits their versatility in combat.

2. To compensate the mega needs to either refit a much weaker tank or gimp its dps by not fitting its nuetron blasters.

3. Even with the silly fit noobmareX put on here the mega was only roughly matching the abaddon within the megas own optimal when just dps and EHP were taken into account. And it totally ignored the fact that the baddon also has a vast 300% range advantage that it out damages the mega

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.10.25 22:56:00 - [142]
 

Edited by: NightmareX on 25/10/2009 23:00:29
Originally by: EFT Worrier
Nerf scorch, nerf insta-switch crystals and 90% of the current imbalance issue is solved.

Yes, i agree to this. Except for one thing, the insta-switch crystal thing.

That can be like that only if the other weapon systems that have guns can switch ammos in like 5 secs or something like that. 5 secs makes more sense.

Scorch is the ONLY reason some things here aren't realy balanced here.

Fix / nerf Scorch a little and things will start to look more balanced.

Lasers need the range so don't touch that on Lasers. Either decrease Lasers DPS by 15% or decrease the Lasers tracking by 25%.

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2009.10.25 23:01:00 - [143]
 

Edited by: marakor on 25/10/2009 23:01:45
Originally by: EFT Worrier
Nerf scorch, nerf insta-switch crystals and 90% of the current imbalance issue is solved.


Amarr MF can make the abaddon almost match the mega in dps (under 10% differance and less if the abad fits 3 mag stabs) within the megas own optimal but has a 15km optimal instead of 4.5km, and nerfing scorch does not solve the blaster megas fitting issues, weaker tank or cap problems with fitting a RR + mwd.

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.10.25 23:06:00 - [144]
 

Edited by: NightmareX on 25/10/2009 23:10:33
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
I don't quite get how anyone could suggest blasters need a tracking boost based on those graphs, unless they assume the standard combat scenario is a dead still blaster bs trying to shoot a max speed bs on perfect orbit and neither have webs.

That's why I said the speed scale is somewhat poorly chosen, 100m/s or even 50m/s transversal speed in a bs vs bs scenario inside web range is just not very relevant. The speed differences (and therefore maximum theoretical orbit speeds as well) fall somewhere in the 10-20m/s range, and at those transversals blasters hit just fine.

At cruiser level likewise, the 200m/s+ graphs, while looking ugly, aren't that meaningful. Even the 100m/s graph describes a rare situation and the most interesting graph is the 50m/s one where blasters, again, have no significant trouble.

I just don't see how any reasonable tracking boost would achieve anything useful, and a lot of the cries for more tracking sound a lot like people are just unhappy that they can't hit smaller ship classes anymore.

Optimal is another big no, considering especially on bs level acs are already pushed past point range.

Some more damage would probably be fine, 15% maybe to compensate for the upcoming ac ammo changes and then some. And, pulses obviously need a huge tracking nerf, but that's another matter.

This man speaks the truth.

Only if we could have more players like this in EVE, who can use the brain rather than the ass. It would be really nice then.

Alright, good night. Going to bed now.

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2009.10.25 23:16:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: marakor on 25/10/2009 23:17:38
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi

I just don't see how any reasonable tracking boost would achieve anything useful, and a lot of the cries for more tracking sound a lot like people are just unhappy that they can't hit smaller ship classes anymore.


And, pulses obviously need a huge tracking nerf, but that's another matter.


As you mentioned above the transversal speed of a BS vs BS fight would be so slow a tracking nerf to BS pulse would be rather futile.

The optimal penalty of AM could be changed so blasters get a little better range with it, keeping it under 10km obviosly but it needs to be better than 4.5km.

That and a increase in the megas available fitting stats would help a lot.


Originally by: NightmareX
Only if we could have more players like this in EVE, who can use the brain rather than the ass. It would be really nice then.


Stop posting then, anyway didnt you say it was past your bed time?.

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.10.26 06:00:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: NightmareX on 26/10/2009 06:04:58
Originally by: marakor
Edited by: marakor on 25/10/2009 23:17:38
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi

I just don't see how any reasonable tracking boost would achieve anything useful, and a lot of the cries for more tracking sound a lot like people are just unhappy that they can't hit smaller ship classes anymore.


And, pulses obviously need a huge tracking nerf, but that's another matter.


As you mentioned above the transversal speed of a BS vs BS fight would be so slow a tracking nerf to BS pulse would be rather futile.

The optimal penalty of AM could be changed so blasters get a little better range with it, keeping it under 10km obviosly but it needs to be better than 4.5km.

That and a increase in the megas available fitting stats would help a lot.

No, a better range on Blasters wont help much and Blaster is still Blaster no matter how much you want to to be like Lasers. Blasters will never get any range boost. Just forget it right now.

Blasters are the ultimate close range weapon. And it will continue to be that forever and ever.

No, Antimatter will not be changed either, it will be at -50% range like every other close range ammos are.

The only thing i can agree with is to give the Mega a little more Powergrid and CPU. That's all it need.

Also, for those who complant that you want more tracking or damage on Blasters. Well yeah, have you heard about the thing that is called damage implants that gives you 10% more damage to Large Blasters for example?. One of the implants gives you +5% damage to all turrets and the 2nd one is giving you +5% more damage to Large Hybrid Turrets.

And there is also another nice implant you can use, to improve your tracking, yes it's the 5% bonus to turret tracking speed implant. I can say it right now that +5% more tracking helps alot.

So use those implants instead of screaming 'I'm a noob and i need better tracking and damage on Blasters because i suck donkey kong'.

marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
Posted - 2009.10.26 08:19:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: NightmareX

No, a better range on Blasters wont help much and Blaster is still Blaster no matter how much you want to to be like Lasers. Blasters will never get any range boost. Just forget it right now.

Blasters are the ultimate close range weapon. And it will continue to be that forever and ever.


Blasters can get a optimal range boost ansd still be a close range weapon, nobody is asking for them to have the same range as pulse you fool.

Originally by: NightmareX
The only thing i can agree with is to give the Mega a little more Powergrid and CPU. That's all it need.


What makes you think anybody cares about what you agree with troll?.Laughing


Originally by: NightmareX
Also, for those who complant that you want more tracking or damage on Blasters. Well yeah, have you heard about the thing that is called damage implants that gives you 10% more damage to Large Blasters for example?. One of the implants gives you +5% damage to all turrets and the 2nd one is giving you +5% more damage to Large Hybrid Turrets.


Every race has those available you idiot how does that level the imbalance?.Laughing


The cpu and PG increases are needed so it can at least fit a reasonable cap injector system and passive tank.

A adjustment in dmg is needed as they hardly can compete with pulse ships even in their own optimals let alone at just outside that range.


You are so inexperianced you do not know the problems these ships and systems have so your certainly not qualified to begin to understand how to solve them. Just stick to waggling your pimped navy mega at noobs on sissi and leave the important stuff to those with the understanding and expereiance to deal with it.

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2009.10.26 12:56:00 - [148]
 

Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 26/10/2009 13:18:00

Pretty graphs. I like the colours as it shows "hot spots" very effectively.

I think CCP have been made aware of the blaster issues for some time, the problem is they don't acknowledge them or consider them sufficiently "unfair" to warrant any attention from the balancing team. This is what irks me personally, much more than only being able to fly blaster turret ships which have such a diminished DPS/Close Range Tracking advantage these days.

I don't like comparing one ship to another personally, because everyones fittings are different, each real PVP situation varies and pure maths and numbers dont effectively represent real PVP.

However, I do think in general the optimal DPS graphs are very valid though, and they clearly show the big advantages of Pulse Lasers currently (just in terms of total area/effectiveness under the curve) compared to Blasters.

I think it is very important to look at Beams versus Rails too since when you're talking about tracking boosts you must consider the impact on the longer range weapons and ships too. For example the best Sniper BS should probably not be the best CR BS too. Variety in the use of ship hulls is important so perhaps add that into your arguments along with some Tracking module assisted graphs.

My personal feeling is that due to a long period of neglect by CCP, blasters do now need a scaled tracking bonus (Small: +a bonus, Med: +3a bonus, L: +7a bonus for example) because the larger the blaster ship, the worse the problem of attaining correct range becomes - meaning you need a greater advantage at your sweet spot and better potential to hit smaller ships if the "solo" turret BS is ever to be viable again (Which I think the game is worse for not having these).

Blaster (and autocannon) DPS needs a small boost too, but i think either improving the ammo (and ammo varieties - especially the T2 ammo) is maybe better than boosting the blaster itself.

One other thing is Tracking Computers/Enhancers. I know these are likely to change in Dominion along with the Projectile changes. Just a feeling but I'm thinking these changes will boost Pulse Laser BS even further, compared to a "stacking nerfed" Mega for example. Pulse-Pocs use to be one of the best counters to Nano-Hacs as a result of the optimal/tracking effects of these modules, now with stuff moving slower it translates to a general DPS buff. CCP also need to consider the effect of these modules over the greater range of lasers for any changes.

One other consideration is afterburners. More ships like inties and AFs are using ABs these days - thats a good thing, but with reduced web effects the only counters are becomming neuts and light drones. Would some kind of scripts or something for BS sized turrets be out of the question to help tracking?

I dont want a solo-win-mobile, but at least giving a turret BS a fighting chance if you get caught alone by an AF for example.

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.10.26 15:14:00 - [149]
 

Edited by: NightmareX on 26/10/2009 15:24:01
Originally by: marakor
Originally by: NightmareX

No, a better range on Blasters wont help much and Blaster is still Blaster no matter how much you want to to be like Lasers. Blasters will never get any range boost. Just forget it right now.

Blasters are the ultimate close range weapon. And it will continue to be that forever and ever.


Blasters can get a optimal range boost ansd still be a close range weapon, nobody is asking for them to have the same range as pulse you fool.

Originally by: NightmareX
The only thing i can agree with is to give the Mega a little more Powergrid and CPU. That's all it need.


What makes you think anybody cares about what you agree with troll?.Laughing


Originally by: NightmareX
Also, for those who complant that you want more tracking or damage on Blasters. Well yeah, have you heard about the thing that is called damage implants that gives you 10% more damage to Large Blasters for example?. One of the implants gives you +5% damage to all turrets and the 2nd one is giving you +5% more damage to Large Hybrid Turrets.


Every race has those available you idiot how does that level the imbalance?.Laughing


The cpu and PG increases are needed so it can at least fit a reasonable cap injector system and passive tank.

A adjustment in dmg is needed as they hardly can compete with pulse ships even in their own optimals let alone at just outside that range.


You are so inexperianced you do not know the problems these ships and systems have so your certainly not qualified to begin to understand how to solve them. Just stick to waggling your pimped navy mega at noobs on sissi and leave the important stuff to those with the understanding and expereiance to deal with it.


1. Does 2 km extra optimal extra for example helps Blasters anything at all?, no it doesn't.

2. I agree with it because your stupid and because it makes you goes emo tard here on the forum, happy now noobie troll?.

3. Yeah, every race have it, but the thing you didn't get, simply because your way to dumb is that there is not many that are using those 2 implants out there.

Like, if you have those 2 implants fitted, you will tear an Abaddon apart in a Mega. The Abaddon doesn't stand a chance. And it's the other way, if you have fitted those 2 implants, also the last implant for Laser damage, and you meet a Mega with the same setup as i used on the Mega, then you chance to kill him is pretty high. See my point?.

But hey, it's you, your way to dumb to understand things like this.

No, a DPS boost on Blasters will never happen. One of the reasons is because of the Lasers are doing way to much DPS at range, and a little to much DPS at close range.

When you take into the picture that you have insta reload, no ammo consume and so on, and thne on top have about Blaster DPS, then the Lasers need a disadvantage like Blasters have, so yeah, lower the DPS on Lasers for like 10% at close range and 15% at med range.

When this is done, then the case will be this for those weapon systems.

Blasters: DPS king in close range by far.
Lasers: Great DPS and good range and still have great DPS to be on a Close range weapon like MPL II
Projectiles: They get boosted and gets pretty balanced to Blasters.

So when CCP makes Lasers balanced to the other 2 weapon systems, then yeah, the all 3 weapon systems are balanced to each others.

But nooo, you don't get this at all. You just want to boost the DPS on Blasters to make them OP and overpowered and unbalanced.

Your goal is to make Blaster really noobie friendly and still make them have HUUUUUUGE DPS even for noobies. While i want them to be balanced and make them so you have to use your brain and have lots of skills / experience in Blasters before you can be good with them. Yes, Blasters is not easy mode anylonger.

Lasers on the other hand, is really easy mode atm.

Well, just because i don't want to make this topic into a flame war with an idiot, then let me know exactly how you want each weapon systems to be.

Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.10.26 17:18:00 - [150]
 

Hello,

Blaster tracking per se isn't that bad. It's the gash tracking formula that goes wrong at close ranges. Meaning that, even though you have this nice close-range weapon... you really don't want to be 'up close' as everything under the sun can get under your guns... even if it is virtually blotting out the Sun.

That and, going solo in medium and in particular, large Blasterboats is tantamount to suicide with the changes to the game over the last 2-2.5 years.

Shame really.




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