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Ghoest
Posted - 2009.09.29 17:58:00 - [1]
 

This isnt a complaint about the tax - making your own corp solves that easily enough.

But if you want want more corps make it so the corp structure and asset structure promotes a corp itself being useful to most players.

Currently most corps work on 4 basic plans.

1 Small group of friends.
Structure doesnt really matter in this case. But this is not applicable at all to the issue of getting people to join corps.

2 Chat Channel.
Basically the corp just functions as a way to organize for PVP or PVE. The directors may control a few assets under the corp title but they are completely removed in function from what normal people do in the corp.

3 Pay for 0.0.
In this case you basically pay taxes so you can live in 0.0 and fight in wars. Once again the corp does almost nothing for you with respect to assets. They may help with transportation of supplies and ships to 0.0
Sometims the leaders have access to a decent mmon and make money for themselves.
Most of the members make money with a high sec alt.

4 Large and organized.
These are relatively rare. They require an extremely organzied group of leaders and depend on out side the game means of planning and communication. They have production chains involving many members and supply ships for corp PVP.
They are rare because they require basically a full time job of the leaders with a huge amount of micro managing resources so no one can scam the corp.


If you want more people in corps you need to find a way for corps run by ordinary people to offer members actual advanatges beyond chat and blue status. As is its actually much harder for most people to make money in most corps so they either run NPC corp, one man corps or they have an alt that does this.

Cypherous
Minmatar
Lions of Judah Incorporated
Posted - 2009.09.29 18:06:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Ghoest




If you want more people in corps you need to find a way for corps run by ordinary people to offer members actual advanatges beyond chat and blue status.


Fantastic idea what do you suggest apart from scheme's already in place in-corp for things like ship replacement etc, the problem is that there is no real way for CCP to give you stuff you have to do it yourself, create for example a ship replacement scheme whereby frig pilots in PvP ops get free frigs etc, its all down to the players to arrange and create :)

fazeley
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2009.09.29 18:09:00 - [3]
 

Worst post ever.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.09.29 18:18:00 - [4]
 

Type 4 corps seem relatively common to me, but maybe that's because I got the hell out of undock range and did stuff, rather than whine about how unfair life, I mean EvE, is.

I mean Jesus, I'm not the most likeable person in the world, but I have never had any problem finding a decent well-run corp with great people in it. If an opinionated ******* with a very mediocre aptitude for PvP can do it (I have), then the only reason for failing to do so is not trying.

Corps are run by players. If you dont like how player corps are run you can, and this is the great thing, start your own and run it how you think it should be done. Costs a couple of mill is all. I mean it's so easy and obvious how it should be done, right? Just do it.


But wait... I'm guessing that what you're actually after is magical ex-nihilo bonuses just for being in a corp, right? No? What then?

W3370Pi4
Lamb Federation Navy
Posted - 2009.09.29 18:25:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Ghoest

3 Pay for 0.0.
In this case you basically pay taxes so you can live in 0.0 and fight in wars. Once again the corp does almost nothing for you with respect to assets. They may help with transportation of supplies and ships to 0.0
Sometims the leaders have access to a decent mmon and make money for themselves.
Most of the members make money with a high sec alt.



you have just been in crappy corporations apparently

GallenteCitizen0923475
Posted - 2009.09.29 18:25:00 - [6]
 

Umm if your going to whine that much over a 5-10% tax, I would not want your bumb in my corp personally.

There are plenty of highly structured corps that give plenty of incentive for new members and manage their bugets very closely. From corp investment plans, projects, services, facilities, fun ect. If you can't find a corp that offers such, or figure out that thats way worth while vs a npc corp.... then you probalby dont have the IQ required to complete a corp application anyway.

Eli Porter
Posted - 2009.09.29 18:26:00 - [7]
 

I thought about this recently. My thoughts are:

1. Make NPC corps have Taxes. 10-15% sounds solid. Minimal payment for wardec immunity.

2. To counteract all the new small corps, allow having a lot more wardecs(double?).

3. To counteract wardec escape by 1 man corps, A player has to wait a while before starting new corps. A week perhaps.

4. Add a flat weekly tax for running a corp so one man corps won't profit as much.


Cors
It's A Trap
It's A Trap Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.29 18:39:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Ghoest
This isnt a complaint about the tax - making your own corp solves that easily enough.

But if you want want more corps make it so the corp structure and asset structure promotes a corp itself being useful to most players.

Currently most corps work on 4 basic plans.

1 Small group of friends.
Structure doesnt really matter in this case. But this is not applicable at all to the issue of getting people to join corps.

2 Chat Channel.
Basically the corp just functions as a way to organize for PVP or PVE. The directors may control a few assets under the corp title but they are completely removed in function from what normal people do in the corp.

3 Pay for 0.0.
In this case you basically pay taxes so you can live in 0.0 and fight in wars. Once again the corp does almost nothing for you with respect to assets. They may help with transportation of supplies and ships to 0.0
Sometims the leaders have access to a decent mmon and make money for themselves.
Most of the members make money with a high sec alt.

4 Large and organized.
These are relatively rare. They require an extremely organzied group of leaders and depend on out side the game means of planning and communication. They have production chains involving many members and supply ships for corp PVP.
They are rare because they require basically a full time job of the leaders with a huge amount of micro managing resources so no one can scam the corp.


If you want more people in corps you need to find a way for corps run by ordinary people to offer members actual advanatges beyond chat and blue status. As is its actually much harder for most people to make money in most corps so they either run NPC corp, one man corps or they have an alt that does this.



If this is what you think a corp is, then you've had some REALLY bad luck.

The corp should do one of several things for you.

1) Logistics. Every GOOD corp is going to have a heavy logistics backbone. They should have a system setup so players deep in 0.0 can order ships/mods/rigs/skillbooks/ammo, and have them be purchased/built and moved forward to the 0.0 home for you.

2) They give you a goal. For a lot of people, the goal is just pvp. "Tell me where to be and who to shoot.." is a very common thing. But after a while you want to fight FOR something. Taking/defending/building up a 0.0 home is one of those things. This should be GREATLY enhanced come Dominion.

3) They should give you a framework for connecting with your friends. Corp channels, ventrilo/ts, corp forums, and so on.

4) they should give you a sense of identity. Inclusion. Feeling like you're part of something bigger. Something MORE then just a single person in an mmo.

5) they should be friends. All of the above is meaningless if you can't be friends with the people in your corp. When you find one one is having trouble with his marriage, another having financial troubles in RL, another is unemployed. When you KNOW your corp mates, and talk about RL things, it's become more then just internet spaceships.


Now. I see how you mean that most folks arn't makeing isk in 0.0. This char for example is my empire carebear char. He's in a seperate corp, that many of my friends use to carebear.

BUT... CCP IS doing something about this. In Dominon they have talked about teh ability to upgrade your space in 0.0 so it's more profitable. For my 0.0 corp, that means that our corp will have a higher income. we'll get better ship reinbursements(Maybe even to the point of 100% loss reinbursement. If Dominon can make it so 1500 people can live in 5 systems without stepping on each others toes, or causeing blue on blue rage fights, then it'll be a GOOD thing, as it'll allow thousands of people to come to 0.0 as well.


An Anarchyyt
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.09.29 18:47:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: W3370Pi4
Originally by: Ghoest

3 Pay for 0.0.
In this case you basically pay taxes so you can live in 0.0 and fight in wars. Once again the corp does almost nothing for you with respect to assets. They may help with transportation of supplies and ships to 0.0
Sometims the leaders have access to a decent mmon and make money for themselves.
Most of the members make money with a high sec alt.



you have just been in crappy corporations apparently


^This.

Mikayla Grey
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.29 19:06:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Malcanis

I mean Jesus, I'm not the most likeable person in the world, but I have never had any problem finding a decent well-run corp with great people in it. If an opinionated ******* with a very mediocre aptitude for PvP can do it (I have), then the only reason for failing to do so is not trying.



I've never had any problem finding good corps either and i never spent much time looking for them. I probably spent the most time looking for my first 0.0 corp when i didnt know too much about 0.0 politics etc.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.09.29 19:08:00 - [11]
 

Your corp is what you make of it, good or bad.

Now I see no problem with CCP continueing with their ongoing efforts to allow ever more and better tools to manage player corps (you are aware of those right) but ultimately the responsibility for creating a good corp environment is up to you.

I would be very dissapointed if CCP created corp Templates to choose from where everything was done already.

Better tools, of course (and constantly being worked on).
Playing the game for us, handing us everything on a silver platter... heck no. Most of us would move on.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2009.09.29 19:19:00 - [12]
 

Corporations are and should be created by us and for us most definitely, but the right tools to allow for a "smoother ride" is something that they are sadly lacking.

I opened a Proposal in the Assembly Hall on just this topic earlier today.

Feel free to critique it and offer suggestions for additional corporate tools.

Malphilos
Posted - 2009.09.29 20:42:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
I mean Jesus, I'm not the most likeable person in the world, but I have never had any problem finding a decent well-run corp with great people in it. If an opinionated ******* with a very mediocre aptitude for PvP can do it (I have), then the only reason for failing to do so is not trying.


Or perhaps you have unreasonably low standards to go with your abrasive personality and mediocre skills?

The point being (to paraphrase Clemens), once we have done a thing we have nothing but contempt for those who have not.

That doesn't necessarily mean it reflects the usual, or even common, experience.


Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.09.29 20:51:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Malphilos
Originally by: Malcanis
I mean Jesus, I'm not the most likeable person in the world, but I have never had any problem finding a decent well-run corp with great people in it. If an opinionated ******* with a very mediocre aptitude for PvP can do it (I have), then the only reason for failing to do so is not trying.


Or perhaps you have unreasonably low standards to go with your abrasive personality and mediocre skills?



Could be, could be.... what corp facilities would you consider a "decent, well run corp"? Off-hand I can't think of anything my current one lacks. Plenty of well run fleets and gangs, jump bridges, ships jumped to 0.0 for free, lots of space to rat/plex in, plenty of hostiles, quality blues (but not too many), ship replacement, lots of very experienced and generally nice EvE players in corp and alliance, RL corp events in easy reach of where I live... I dunno mate, what am I missing out on? Are free blowjobs the norm?

Catherine Frasier
Posted - 2009.09.29 20:59:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: fazeley
Worst post ever.
His or yours?

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.09.29 21:10:00 - [16]
 

Quote:
That doesn't necessarily mean it reflects the usual, or even common, experience.



Except, of course, that in this case it does...


Captain Tardbar
State Protectorate
Posted - 2009.09.29 21:31:00 - [17]
 

I was thinking to myself that perhaps corps should have a revamp in built in political structure so much that alliances can have elections, titles, laws, punishment and reverse taxation.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2009.09.29 23:24:00 - [18]
 

Most of you, commenting about the OP, are completely missing what the OP is speaking to, though admit the presentation didn't make it clear.

This is the OP's point "They are rare because they require basically a full time job of the leaders with a huge amount of micro managing resources so no one can scam the corp."

Corp asset security needs more granularity so that the "all or nothing" trust issues are mitigated. If a corp could allow every Joe blow in the corp the ability to use the corp BPO for Ship XYZ, and those that use it don't have to worry about Billy the Noob canceling their manufacture job, then more corps would likely be able to advertise "hey we have all these BPOs you can use if you join us and pay our tiny tax of 10%! One percent blow NPC tax, woo hoo!"

Or how about, "Hey Researcher guy, join us, we have slots you can use, and no one can screw up your research jobs and you can't screw up our POS, and guess what, no one can mess with your ships unless YOU say they can, yay!"

But that can't be done with the current system, because the current system blows pink thorax.


Maik Sarsei
Posted - 2009.09.29 23:47:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Maik Sarsei on 29/09/2009 23:48:49
Originally by: Ghoest
... make it so the corp structure and asset structure promotes a corp itself being useful to most players.


That's the most common problem with corps. That everyone sits and waits for somebody else to MAKE it fun/profitable for them, for somebody else to entertain them, for somebody else to create easier and safer ISK-making venues for them. However this turns EVE into full time job for that somebody else who you're waiting for to do all this stuff for you. So if chat, blue status, having fun pvping or whatever doesn't cut it for you, then you are welcome to sit in NPC corp until you start asking yourself "what can I do for the corp" instead of always asking "what the corp can offer me" when you're looking for corps to join.

So many people complaining on these boards about how it is tough to find a decent corporation. And so few of them ever lift a finger to improve the corp once they get accepted.


Ghoest
Posted - 2009.09.29 23:55:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Most of you, commenting about the OP, are completely missing what the OP is speaking to, though admit the presentation didn't make it clear.

This is the OP's point "They are rare because they require basically a full time job of the leaders with a huge amount of micro managing resources so no one can scam the corp."

Corp asset security needs more granularity so that the "all or nothing" trust issues are mitigated. If a corp could allow every Joe blow in the corp the ability to use the corp BPO for Ship XYZ, and those that use it don't have to worry about Billy the Noob canceling their manufacture job, then more corps would likely be able to advertise "hey we have all these BPOs you can use if you join us and pay our tiny tax of 10%! One percent blow NPC tax, woo hoo!"

Or how about, "Hey Researcher guy, join us, we have slots you can use, and no one can screw up your research jobs and you can't screw up our POS, and guess what, no one can mess with your ships unless YOU say they can, yay!"

But that can't be done with the current system, because the current system blows pink thorax.




Thakn. Sometimes Im not as clear as I should be.
But it goes beyond just research manufacturing needs major revisions as do private hangers. Additionally it would be good to have a POS hanger option that allowed particular items to be removed for a set fee.

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2009.09.29 23:58:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Maik Sarsei


So many people complaining on these boards about how it is tough to find a decent corporation. And so few of them ever lift a finger to improve the corp once they get accepted.




Exactly. When I first started I did not have a good spec to start with and was torn between mining and pvp training. So in the beginning all I was able to do was to haul for the corp. I did not complain. I logged in and hauled my ass off and my corp mates made it more then worth my while. Soon our corp grew and then we spread our wings and joined a 0.0 alliance. We went there, we helped each other out, we got blown up together, we blew others up together, we ratted together, we did everything together. Unfortunately that corp dissolved to many real life issues. Then I found a new corp, the one I am in now, and there is no lack of group activities, you get ships when you need them, there is guidance when asked for, there is leadership potential when one wishes to step up.

People just need to learn that you just do not jump in the first corp you talk to, or the one with the "coolest" name or logo. You need to treat it like an interview process and get to know a few different corps. In finailization, if you ever start to feel like a corp is not for you, then it is best to cleanly sever ties and find a new one. For the longer you let the distaste breed in you the unhappier you will get.


Slade

Nur Vadenn
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2009.09.30 01:55:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Nur Vadenn on 30/09/2009 02:02:16
Originally by: Malphilos
Originally by: Malcanis
I mean Jesus, I'm not the most likeable person in the world, but I have never had any problem finding a decent well-run corp with great people in it. If an opinionated ******* with a very mediocre aptitude for PvP can do it (I have), then the only reason for failing to do so is not trying.


Or perhaps you have unreasonably low standards to go with your abrasive personality and mediocre skills?

The point being (to paraphrase Clemens), once we have done a thing we have nothing but contempt for those who have not.

That doesn't necessarily mean it reflects the usual, or even common, experience.




What Malphilos said honestly...

With the corporate landscape literally overflowing with corporations I can trip over a bad corporation just five minutes after logging on. I have yet to encounter a good corporation though. Perhaps my standards are a bit high. With statements like this one from Malcanis you might think good corps are a dime a dozen and people must simply be blind, deaf, and dumb not to find them.

If you're so proficient in finding these corporations then share! What is your secret? It must be something that escapes us mere mortals so bless us with your wisdom. I mean since the research and interviews I've been doing has done nothing but weed out corps maybe I am doing it wrong.

The OP is right in that more value needs to be added to corporations to make them worth wild and better tools need to be available to vet corporations during the recruitment process. Perhaps more facilities to boost profit making abilities. A more transparent financial system for corporations. An API key that can be handed to potential recruits with corporation details like login activity, wallet activity, and skill distribution of current members so the claims of recruiters can be backed up.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2009.09.30 02:26:00 - [23]
 

People make the corp, the corp does not make the people.

You have to put in the time and effort to make a corp become something great. Not the other way around.

Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Ammatar Free Corps
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.30 02:46:00 - [24]
 

Corps exist as something else as well. A method of quality control.

It's no coincidence that Faction Warfare has turned into a two-tier system. The main militia corps and the corporations assigned to the militia who often do not co-operate with the mass-militia on more than a very limited basis as they share some of the overall goals.

Why? Because nobody is in control of the main militia corps. Nobody kicks spies, team-killers, pirates and other "traitors" out of the corp because nobody can. As such there is no (or very little) trust.
While the level of trust inside a corporation is pretty low by real life standards at least there is a limited form of quality control. Pilots who are in well-renowned and respected militia corps don't have any obvious flaws that make them unsuited to functioning as wingmen, because pilots that do display such flaws are kicked out.
As such, even if you don't know them personally their presence in a corp you know (and heard well of) of is an indirect recommendation that this guy is OK.

Malphilos
Posted - 2009.09.30 04:39:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote:
That doesn't necessarily mean it reflects the usual, or even common, experience.



Except, of course, that in this case it does...




Well, if the corps are full of "opinionated *******s with mediocre PvP skills", I'd say your wrong about that by any but the most onanistic measure.

Sidrat Flush
Caldari
Eve Industrial Corp
Posted - 2009.09.30 05:17:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Ghoest
Wherever you went - Here you are.


The most insightful signature ever. You're a born complainer - the grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side and you're the first one to bail out.

Where ever you went - I'm sure they didn't miss the back of you.

Leading a corp isn't easy, if you have limited time for Eve, then Eve could reduce you to corp maintainance activities, and hoping the other members are busy having fun instead of shouting out "Where's the leaders gone?" EVEN if you do have time on your hands it still comes down to ensuring the corporation manages it's infrastructure and recruitment.

I know I'm not the greatest ceo out there and there are a lot worse, but with an attitude like yours I'm not surpised at all you haven't found a decent corp. Remember it's a two way avenue and in most good corps every member starts off the same way until trust has been developed and proficiency has been proven.

I SoStoned
Caldari
Posted - 2009.09.30 05:35:00 - [27]
 

Corps have a lot of *crap*.
Arranging that crap for use in a passibly logical manner, allowing key members to particular assets, and others assets to lower tier materials... requires hangar space.

10 hangars, IMO, is imply not really enough even for a small/mid size corp.

Double that, give us a more gradual stairstepping of access control, and the CEO could set titles and let things run just fine.

Unfortunately they cannot seed the low end hangars for the pilots to use as they need... 1 thief, which cannot be identified, and it's all undone. Thus most corp members are hamstrung if no one with higher level access is on to move things down to open access hangars... so they do their own thing, and the corp falls apart.

Access monitoring is a MUST, yet CCP will not implement it. :(

Grath Telkin
Amarr
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.09.30 05:58:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Nur Vadenn

If you're so proficient in finding these corporations then share! What is your secret?



The secret, is actually looking around the game. There are hundreds of stories about hundreds of corps all over these and various other forums such as SHC. The history of some corps, is in fact very old, and well documented.

You can read about the things these corps have done, and if you listen in the right places, you can hear the mover and shaker corps that are around now.

Simply getting to know the world in which your entering when you log on to EVE can give you large amounts of info as to the good and bad corps.

Just being in an active area in Empire you can see certain corps interacting in local, and if you follow the conversations (You DID say you were looking right?) then you can begin to glean information about the operatives and their handlers of a certain area.

Hell man, this game is LITTERED with lore, all player created content thats been driven over 5 years, many of the corps responsible are both alive and doing well after years.

Honestly, when you go looking for a regular job do you apply at every ******* hamburger joint you pass hoping one will turn out to be a good job, or do you invest actual time and research in finding a job you think will suit you and your skills well? (God i hope no McDonalds employee's get ****ed).

Grath Telkin
Amarr
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.09.30 06:03:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: I SoStoned

Access monitoring is a MUST, yet CCP will not implement it. :(


And this is because they intend corporate espionage to be a part of the game, and this includes spying, thieving, and other nasty bits of the darker side of business.

Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2009.09.30 06:04:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Veldya on 30/09/2009 06:05:09
Originally by: Eli Porter
I thought about this recently. My thoughts are:

1. Make NPC corps have Taxes. 10-15% sounds solid. Minimal payment for wardec immunity.

2. To counteract all the new small corps, allow having a lot more wardecs(double?).

3. To counteract wardec escape by 1 man corps, A player has to wait a while before starting new corps. A week perhaps.

4. Add a flat weekly tax for running a corp so one man corps won't profit as much.




lol to counteract 75% of the player base leaving we can charge $100 for an expansion once every 2 or 3 years and no more free content.

I am glad you are not in charge.


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