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Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2010.06.19 19:04:00 - [451]
 


If pilot x is not training anything, his score should only change as other pilots overtake his score or new pilots join eb and rank better pushing him down.

Wiping and recalculating does sound better, tho i've personally not had any issues with the current method.

Drahcir Nasom
Independent Manufacturers
Independent Manufacturers Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.19 21:21:00 - [452]
 

Chribba

Another vote for wiping and recalculating, I'm assuming this is the faster option?

The global ranking should definitely be based on live data, not a pilot's previous global rank. The good thing about your ranking is that it isn't static, for example I was in 14th place, then I decided to train 5 new skills, this meant I went from 0 lvl 3's (1000 ranking points) to 5 lvl 3's (about 14,500 ranking points) and I suddenly dropped to about 150th, but I knew that was going to happen. Similarly, I know when I remap to will/perc, I should be able to gain a few places as I train up the skills in the groups where I have a low ranking.

Drah

arjun
Viziam
Posted - 2010.06.20 07:37:00 - [453]
 

and remove wallet content from ranking. it has no place there.

Dark Bakura
Posted - 2010.06.21 06:39:00 - [454]
 

Hello Chribba,

One of my mates pointed this out. Issues with EB reflecting the appropriate skills. It's most apparent when you look at my attribute differences.

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Dark_Bakura (low attributes, and wtf, BS 5 without cruiser? :P)


http://eveboard.com/pilot/Dark_Bakura/ships (correct attributes and ships)


Cheers

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2010.06.21 10:26:00 - [455]
 

@Dark Bakura, Unsure if I see the problem or if it was a temporary error upon the character update.

Dark Bakura
Posted - 2010.06.21 18:11:00 - [456]
 

Originally by: Chribba
@Dark Bakura, Unsure if I see the problem or if it was a temporary error upon the character update.


Must have been a temporary error then. Seems all in order now. Essentially maybe 1/10 of my true skills were represented on the main sheet. Though everything else was correct (ships I could fly etc).

Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2010.06.22 04:08:00 - [457]
 


Secondary sorting by global rank appears to be broken and sorting randomlySurprised

Just in case your not already aware chribsVery Happy

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2010.06.22 10:04:00 - [458]
 

People getting thrown around or? Because the global rank should now be recalculated on every run and thus people should move around a lot more now than before.

Examples? As it might also be a caching issue (as that's in testing atm), reference ID of the cache shown at the bottom.

Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2010.06.22 13:24:00 - [459]
 

Originally by: Chribba
People getting thrown around or? Because the global rank should now be recalculated on every run and thus people should move around a lot more now than before.

Examples? As it might also be a caching issue (as that's in testing atm), reference ID of the cache shown at the bottom.


Example: - The good Dr Caymus is currently ranked 5th in learning but 359th globally where Drizden is ranked 2nd globally but 38th in learning.

Example 2:- I'm currently ranked 1st in basic certs, but 88th globally, there are a dosen or so players who have all basic certs and rank higher than me globally.

Positions change wildly with every update/change and appears random.

perf 1,39s, ref 20100622/1520

Viggen
Posted - 2010.06.22 14:36:00 - [460]
 

I too have noticed weird happenings in the ranks. For example, I was previously ranked number one in the skills rank, but am now at number two behind Tripoli, dispite having the same number of skills and me having a higher global rank. Also learning skills, I've dropped to rank 52, whereas I've always been ranked around 11 or 12, so I'm now positioned below others with a lower global rank than me.

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2010.06.22 18:46:00 - [461]
 

Rgr will look into it, perhaps there is some misscalcs now that the global is reset on every calculation (or some number/typo in the formula).

The thing that happends now, is that a 'general' globalRank is calculated first for the other ranks to use, since if two piliots have the same rank in eg Learning, the one with best global score should be first - that's the temporary global score.

When all ranks have been calculated - the 'real' global score is recalculated and sorted using the previously generated ranks (which were based on the 'general' global).

So it might be a problem with the first calculation causing the random sorting order.

/c

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2010.06.24 20:08:00 - [462]
 

Looking over it, I now know why all the randomness (duh) - like previously discussed I now switched over the global calculations to wipe the 'score' on each run. The "problem" then was, since there's no previous global rank, one had to be made for the coming calculations - so what I had done was randomly give everyone a temporary global rank to be used in the calculations of the regular ranks.

That is why you all was jumping around. Seeing as this yielded some wtf's I have now removed that. The problem remains though, I need to sort pilots in some way in order to sort the "global rank" calculations. This could be by name (unfair?) or any other attribute - so for the moment the first global rank score is sorted by skillpoint.

So the higher the SP the better temporary rank you will have for all the ranks when calculated. Ideas/thoughts on how to solve this? Any better way?

Note that this SP sort is temporary, and only used when recalculating the category ranks in the cases where two pilots have the same value, the final global score is based upon the previously calculated attributes - but SP determing the first-line sorting order.

/c

Kithran
Posted - 2010.06.25 07:38:00 - [463]
 

Originally by: Chribba
Looking over it, I now know why all the randomness (duh) - like previously discussed I now switched over the global calculations to wipe the 'score' on each run. The "problem" then was, since there's no previous global rank, one had to be made for the coming calculations - so what I had done was randomly give everyone a temporary global rank to be used in the calculations of the regular ranks.

That is why you all was jumping around. Seeing as this yielded some wtf's I have now removed that. The problem remains though, I need to sort pilots in some way in order to sort the "global rank" calculations. This could be by name (unfair?) or any other attribute - so for the moment the first global rank score is sorted by skillpoint.

So the higher the SP the better temporary rank you will have for all the ranks when calculated. Ideas/thoughts on how to solve this? Any better way?

Note that this SP sort is temporary, and only used when recalculating the category ranks in the cases where two pilots have the same value, the final global score is based upon the previously calculated attributes - but SP determing the first-line sorting order.

/c


Could you use the previous global rank just for calculating ties?

Kithran

Qoi
Exert Force
Posted - 2010.06.25 10:02:00 - [464]
 

Couldn't you give all people with the same amount of points the same ranking? I'd consider that fair ;)

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2010.06.25 10:29:00 - [465]
 

Originally by: Kithran
Could you use the previous global rank just for calculating ties?

Kithran
I can try and see what happends if I run it like that.

Originally by: Qoi
Couldn't you give all people with the same amount of points the same ranking? I'd consider that fair ;)
The problem would still be it needs to be sorted in one way or the other, who comes first of ties - by name? by isk? by sp?

I know you want eg ties to have the same rank - eg 45, the problem with that would be the calculation since the db doesn't support generating ranks like that, it only lists based upon the values so it needs to sort the rows.

ofc it can be done, but question is if it's worth all the extra resources that needs to go into checking if 15,000 pilots have the same rank or not

Chakarr
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2010.06.25 12:21:00 - [466]
 

Edited by: Chakarr on 25/06/2010 12:21:08
Is there a problem with eveboard since the server switch? I can't seem to access my character sheets... Crying or Very sad

NM...just my crappy works computer Rolling Eyes

Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2010.06.25 15:16:00 - [467]
 

Originally by: Chribba

this I want your input on. Previously, the global rank of a user was dropping or going up depending on your 'score', thus the rop pilots' global score would decrease every time the stats were updated as the old score was used in the calculations of the new, so a pilot having eg 500 points, would on the next update get 499 (roughly speaking since the changes were in decimals unless the pilot gained a better rank somewhere else).



Let me see if i understand the issue correctly...

Pilot A trains some skills and as a result his global score decreases, This leads to him climbing a few places in ranks where seconday sorting takes place (players with the same stats). This climb in rank further reduces his global score on the next update?

If thats what you are refering to, I believe thats the way it should work. As you improve your global score, you are naturally going to move up the sorting ladder where more than 1 pilot has the same score in any given catagory.

As you have said the effect this has on your global score is minimal since the decrease is in 0.?? decimal, so i really don't see this as being a major issue, since this will effect ALL pilots equally, so noone is gaining any advantage over others

On the other hand, sorting by skillpoints (even temporarilly) has a major impact on the scores.

Take the learning catagory for example where there are currently more than 1200 pilots who have the max 5,376,000 sp possible, sorting by sp means veteran players like Dr Caynus will shoot straight to the top 10 while a younger player with say 10m sp can only reach a maximum ranking position of 1200+ and will be pushed further and further down as more higher sp players max out that catagory.

that 1200+ ranking points will limit how high he can climb in the global score as he can never catch or overtake higher sp players.

I can't think of any other attribute that will work the same as global score for secondary sorting that will not cause the same issues with the gap between older and younger pilots and believe the best option is to roll back to the working system we had a few days ago.

Originally by: Qoi
Couldn't you give all people with the same amount of points the same ranking? I'd consider that fair ;)


Again taking the learning catagory as an example, giving 1200+ pilots the same rank would not be the best solution.

Necronous
Posted - 2010.06.25 20:23:00 - [468]
 

Originally by: Amateratsu
Again taking the learning catagory as an example, giving 1200+ pilots the same rank would not be the best solution.


Why not? They all are technically first place, all masters of that given branch.

Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2010.06.26 04:15:00 - [469]
 

Originally by: Necronous
Originally by: Amateratsu
Again taking the learning catagory as an example, giving 1200+ pilots the same rank would not be the best solution.


Why not? They all are technically first place, all masters of that given branch.


As Chribba stated above, even if you give those 1200 pilots the same rank, they still have to be listed in some kind of ordering...

And then the unlucky pilots who get shoved down at the bottom of the list get rewarded with a 1200+ point penalty added to their global score.

Viggen
Posted - 2010.06.26 14:52:00 - [470]
 

Originally by: Amateratsu

I can't think of any other attribute that will work the same as global score for secondary sorting that will not cause the same issues with the gap between older and younger pilots and believe the best option is to roll back to the working system we had a few days ago.



/signed

Estel Arador
Posted - 2010.06.26 15:08:00 - [471]
 

How about sorting ties according to least SP for the temporary ranking?
It is more of an achievement to have maxed Learning with only 10M SP than with 100M SP, so the character with 10M SP should end up above the character with 100M SP.

Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2010.06.26 15:19:00 - [472]
 

Originally by: Estel Arador
How about sorting ties according to least SP for the temporary ranking?
It is more of an achievement to have maxed Learning with only 10M SP than with 100M SP, so the character with 10M SP should end up above the character with 100M SP.


Sounds good in principal, but would have the reverse effect of the above with players like Dr Caymus being relegated to the bottom of the list with no chance of ever climbing back up.

Thats why the global rank is so ideal as its a dinamic value that can always be improved upon no matter how old you are.

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2010.06.26 18:10:00 - [473]
 

I tried making secondary sorting now based on old global score... unsure if it works tho lol but guess we'll see what happends with ranks or not

Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2010.06.27 05:30:00 - [474]
 

Originally by: Chribba
I tried making secondary sorting now based on old global score... unsure if it works tho lol but guess we'll see what happends with ranks or not


Looks good / working...Cool

Drahcir Nasom
Independent Manufacturers
Independent Manufacturers Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.27 07:35:00 - [475]
 

Originally by: Amateratsu
Originally by: Chribba
I tried making secondary sorting now based on old global score... unsure if it works tho lol but guess we'll see what happends with ranks or not


Looks good / working...Cool


Signed

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.06.30 08:01:00 - [476]
 

Planetary Certificates not in yetQuestionWink

Harnon Oan
Posted - 2010.07.03 09:19:00 - [477]
 

Edited by: Harnon Oan on 03/07/2010 09:43:14
.

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2010.07.08 09:02:00 - [478]
 

[eb] should now be properly back from all hardware upgrades. some optimization has been made please report oddities that may show up. updated db is scheduled as well to include missing items, such as certificates and the likes.

/c

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.07.08 11:09:00 - [479]
 

Originally by: Chribba
[eb] should now be properly back from all hardware upgrades. some optimization has been made please report oddities that may show up. updated db is scheduled as well to include missing items, such as certificates and the likes.

/c

Well my ranking page is a little weird, apparently I only have 19 skills trained.

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2010.07.08 11:46:00 - [480]
 

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Chribba
[eb] should now be properly back from all hardware upgrades. some optimization has been made please report oddities that may show up. updated db is scheduled as well to include missing items, such as certificates and the likes.

/c

Well my ranking page is a little weird, apparently I only have 19 skills trained.
Yeah the "problem" that has occured is that your character was refreshed at the same time as the ranks were generated thus not all your data were available for calculations. This should sort itself on the next refresh. But I will adjust the rank generation startups to try my best to avoid automati api updates at least.

I'm also happy to see that rank generation has been reduced from around 3:30min to only 1:30min now with the new hardware.

/c


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