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Alexandra Alt
Posted - 2009.09.25 11:53:00 - [1]
 


Hello,

To make this quite short, level 5 skills in the test server should be always available, i mean, not once in a while, why ? because eve will have a much bigger testing community that what it is, only a few log on the test server to try out anything, and i mean a few, not because there is no interest to test stuff, but because the majority can't be arsed to have 2 skill queues in 2 different places just to log to test feature A or B, so, to help CCP AND to help the players testing (yes because it IS a valid point to use the test server to try out what's the FOTM ship to fly) Sisi should have all characters with level 5 skills.

Pretty sure it would be FULL of ppl all day everytime there has new features to test.

Best regards,

Reincarnator
Knights of Apathy
Honourable Templum of Alcedonia
Posted - 2009.09.25 12:00:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Alexandra Alt

Hello,

To make this quite short, level 5 skills in the test server should be always available, i mean, not once in a while, why ? because eve will have a much bigger testing community that what it is, only a few log on the test server to try out anything, and i mean a few, not because there is no interest to test stuff, but because the majority can't be arsed to have 2 skill queues in 2 different places just to log to test feature A or B, so, to help CCP AND to help the players testing (yes because it IS a valid point to use the test server to try out what's the FOTM ship to fly) Sisi should have all characters with level 5 skills.

Pretty sure it would be FULL of ppl all day everytime there has new features to test.

Best regards,

Thats just it; it would be full all the time. A lot of people wouldn't bother playing on tq if you had everything on sisi. Also, it is usually better to test out ships/mods with your current skills. A month old newb in a battleship will have a very different experience to someone who has been playing for a few years.

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2009.09.25 12:07:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 25/09/2009 12:08:12
No it shouldn't. Of the top of my head I can think of three resons why not.

First. It attracts crap ton of people who only play around and don't actually test or bug report anything. They make it harder for the people interested in testing to do their work and waste valuable dev time. I would favor quality over quantity in this case.

Second. The skill system is also what needs to be constantly tested. It is the core feature of the game and it can't be excluded from the testing. Can you imagine the ****storm, if there will be any severe problems related to it.

Third. Testing is more useful if it reflects the situation on TQ as it currently does. Things have to work and be balanced with all skill levels, ships and modules. The easiest and most efficient way to do this is to just mirror TQ. That way the things being tested on the test server reflect the things people do on tranquility. It also has the added bonus, that people testing for things mostly know how things are supposed to work normally, since they do those same things on TQ too.

Forranz
Malice.
Tentative Nature
Posted - 2009.09.25 12:15:00 - [4]
 

I think you should have the option of making ONE of your 3 available character slots have full L5 skills. Make it so you can pick which character and not have the option of reverting it.


Trident Ested
Posted - 2009.09.25 12:57:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Forranz
I think you should have the option of making ONE of your 3 available character slots have full L5 skills. Make it so you can pick which character and not have the option of reverting it.




No because that doesn't solve the problem of people going on the test server just for lolz even more than they already do.

The FFA areas in FD-MLJ are already "Eve in Counterstrike Mode" and thats OK when theres only 100 people in system but imagine what it would be like with 2000.

No thanks

leave it as it is please

Shibz 7175
Posted - 2009.09.25 13:03:00 - [6]
 

I do agree that it would be nice not to have to manage 2 skill queues, but at the same time, giving everyone access to a level 5 character is overkill.

Maybe if there was a place in account management that lets you copy your skills from TQ to sisi once every 48 hours or something? Or maybe some kind of option to optionally accelerate training speed on one of your characters. Lastly, ccp could offer some method to trade ISK (on sisi) for instant skill points. If the price was high enough, people wouldn't still only be able to get the skills that they actually need for testing.

Alexandra Alt
Posted - 2009.09.25 13:03:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Alexandra Alt on 25/09/2009 13:13:46
Valid point from all, a few can be solved with a bit more time invested into QA on the game.

For starters the server should be down when there's nothing to test, there's no point in spending resources when there's nothing to be tested, with just that u solve the issue with ppl not playing in TQ and goofing around in Sisi all the time, Sisi is up only when there is stuff to be tested.

Will it have alot of people in it ? definately, but, isn't that the point ? the chances of finding bugs with 300 people are alot lower than with 3000 people, i would take a chance and actually say 100 times lower. There has to be tools running along the server monitoring everything being tested to avoid the bug discovering by player report only, the simple fact that a player is playing the game, wether he found a bug or not should contribute to the test through other ways like monitoring software, targetted logs etc, sorry but no one can find efficiently all or the majority of bugs a software has with just a handfull of ppl using it, and with the current system not much ppl log in sisi just simply because you have to train for stuff you would actually like to test but you can't.

For instance the current faction ship testing, i'd love to participate in the test, i would fly all of them, even a noob with 2 weeks play time or not, is going to face more knowledgeable opponents and the fights would happen anyway, winning or loosing is not the point, the fight is the point, the monitoring software together with user feedback, dictactes the balance. In the end the developers have the final word, all feedback is not something everyone has to take for granted, and it's they're work to filter feedback to make it usefull for them, wether it comes from a 2 week old player or a 5 year old player.

2 Week old players are players regardless, and they're presence in a testing server, be it for whatever reason they want to (even if it's for flying a cap) can be viewed as something productive, as it's another possible failure point, variable added into the equation of all things that can help finding that very very obscure bug that someone would find only on the release because it wasn't tested during the testing period.

So, to sum it up, crap ton of people just playing around are actually testing something, the skill system when it needs to be tested doesn't have all lvl 5 chars we make all lvl 1 chars and test it from the ground up with faster training time, plus, just by having everyone with the same skills, everyone is testing everything with the same chars, no more reasons to say (when a bug is found for instance) that it was due to player A not having Skill B at lvl 5 while the other player had, everyone is in the same standing grounds.

In the end, CCP could make pre-made characters like another mmorp we know, with all lvl 5 skills for people who wish to use them or not as they wish, pondering all the pros and cons, I'm pretty convinced that CCP will have more to win than to loose.

Best regards,

edit: ****ty engrish!

Forranz
Malice.
Tentative Nature
Posted - 2009.09.25 13:08:00 - [8]
 

I wouldn't mind being able to have the skill to fly a few ships that I am currently
not skilled for, such as Caps or Dreads, etc..

An Anarchyyt
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.09.25 15:30:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 25/09/2009 15:29:53
The purpose of Singularity is for testing game mechanics. Not just playing around in whatever ship and fitting you want.

Emma Royd
Caldari
Maddled Gommerils
Posted - 2009.09.25 17:04:00 - [10]
 

To have God skills on sisi would cause more problems than enough, lets face it, you can buy a dreadnaught for 100isk, fit it for under 2000isk, hell you can even buy the blueprints and another dread to melt down for minerals to build the ammo you want and still have change for less than the price you can buy a shuttle for in the real game.

One thing I would really like to see but not sure of the possibility of it working, is the ability to not have the sisi character overwritten by the tq data when it's mirrored so you could be on the path of training something on sisi, nearly get to the level you want, and then it gets wiped by the mirror.


Parakill
Posted - 2009.09.25 18:12:00 - [11]
 

I would really like to have an all lv 5 Friday, if not every week, at least once in a while Very Happy

ark maphar
Posted - 2009.09.25 18:56:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Parakill
I would really like to have an all lv 5 Friday, if not every week, at least once in a while Very Happy




this. or weekends.......

Saerynn
Lost Intentions
Posted - 2009.09.25 18:58:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Saerynn on 25/09/2009 19:00:34
Originally by: Alexandra Alt
For starters the server should be down when there's nothing to test, there's no point in spending resources when there's nothing to be tested, with just that u solve the issue with ppl not playing in TQ and goofing around in Sisi all the time, Sisi is up only when there is stuff to be tested.


Testing is more than trying out new features before a patch. Having SiSi available to isolate and reproduce issues in a controlled environment is much more effective than attempting to do the same on TQ.

Originally by: Alexandra Alt
Will it have alot of people in it ? definately, but, isn't that the point ? the chances of finding bugs with 300 people are alot lower than with 3000 people, ...


Infinite monkeys over infinite time will ultimately reproduce every bug; however, the contribution of any random monkey over a discrete period is effectively null. Given constrained resources you're better off preferring monkeys with the aptitude, motivation, and (preferably) skills to track down anything more than superficial defects.

Stress-testing and play-testing of major changes aside, a large population in a test environment is usually counterproductive.

Susy Assulu
Caldari
Atomic Mexicans
Posted - 2009.09.25 20:01:00 - [14]
 

It has probably been said allready but;

The test server used to be all lvl 5 for everyone, this how ever caused a problem.

There are 2 core goals in eve in general, more skills (better ships/modules) and more money. All lvl 5 and 100 isk everything solves these problems so TQ becomes redundant.

What would you do if you could fly everything and it wouldn't cost you anything?

At the time people went on the server and flew around super caps because they could, they could do as they wished they could pew pew etc. Play in their multi billion isk ships and generally disregard TQ

CCP didn't like this or something and changed it.

Galler FLAke
Perkone
Posted - 2009.09.25 20:06:00 - [15]
 

The DAoC test server has NPCs which give you the xp/rp/clxp needed to reach any level and there are other npcs which hand out gear. You could also use a /command to import your character whenever you wanted so your skills/stats/items were up to date. This was invaluable for the people who wanted bug hunt. However very few people who were interested in anything other than bug hunting ever logged on though because there really wasn't anything to do other than try and find bugs.

The people who want to play a multiplayer game won't switch to sisi because there will never be as many people on sisi as TQ and the people who want a single player game won't switch because the server gets wiped all the time so there's no reason to setup shop there unless they just really love running missions (hint: no one does). Alliances and corps won't switch for the same reasons.

I don't think giving everyone an all 5s character is the answer though. Someone who has been playing the game for two weeks or spends all their time running L4 missions will not be able to provide meaningful feedback on changes to capital ships for example. However the difference between the various sniper hacs or fleet BSes or carriers (or whatever) is small enough that a player competent in one race could probably hop into another race and potentially find bugs if they had the ability to do so.

Let's say there was going to be a change to zealots. Someone who knows how to fly a munin could probably hop in a zealot and fly it well enough to provide meaningful feedback and potentially find a bug. However since it would take months of cross-training to be able to do that they either won't bother or they will but the changes will be live before they finish training. If there was a way to respec SP on the test server, generate a character with the appropriate skills, or just train significantly faster they would be able to do this and contribute.

I really don't think sisi would implode and take all of eve with it if people were given a way to speed up sisi training, respec, or something else to give them more options.

Joe Skellington
Minmatar
Matari Legion Holding
Matari Legion
Posted - 2009.09.25 20:59:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Joe Skellington on 25/09/2009 21:01:10
Originally by: Galler FLAke


unless they just really love running missions (hint: no one does).


I happen to like running missions, k thnx.

Alexandra Alt
Posted - 2009.09.25 23:32:00 - [17]
 


For everyone pulling out arguments that players will spend they're time in sisi just goofing around with they're multi million ships should wake up tbh, that already happens, where do alliances practice for the tournament ? where do often people go jack around blowing up ships with a couple of friends without any isk worries ? where do carebears go practice pvp ? it's not in TQ.

Hence what i said in the first time, sisi should not be up all the time, testing only, when TQ version is the same as Sisi then sisi should be down.

Having ways for the mirroring process not to overwrite a currently training char in Sisi is the same thing as having 2 accounts skilling up for the price of one, with that i do not agree.

About the monkeys, i'll direct you to the first paragraph m8, there are already alot of monkeys, the difference is, i (as a developer) rather have 1000 monkeys do all the possible and imaginary things one bright monkey would think of doing than 10. The goofing around when there is nothing to test should be what should have been solved /by taking the server down) when the people had level 5 skills, not removing the possibility of having level 5 skills.

Having level 5 skills in a friday or weekend is the same as having it all the time, people will just play in those days.

Best regards,

Rhohan
Minmatar Marauders
Posted - 2009.09.26 01:07:00 - [18]
 

Paint it anyway you like. Giving eveyone max skills on Sisi basically turns it into a FPS mess, on a limited hardware server. Anyone trying and succeding in getting on during an Armageddon Day can attest to this.

Even if it became common practice, many newbies would be tempted to just hang out on Sisi in FD, at FFA-1, and not even play on TQ.

Imagine the Test Server lag then.

This would only cause severe headaches for those who maintain and test, legitimately, on Sisi.

Which is probably why it has never become common practice, and most likely, never will.

Alexandra Alt
Posted - 2009.09.26 01:43:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Rhohan

Even if it became common practice, many newbies would be tempted to just hang out on Sisi in FD, at FFA-1, and not even play on TQ.



When there is nothing to be tested as i said (i think ppl don't read the posts completely) sis should be down. When there is something to test, those newbies hanging out will do more than the current pro's in sisi hanging out.

Best regards,

Rhohan
Minmatar Marauders
Posted - 2009.09.26 01:53:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Alexandra Alt

When there is nothing to be tested as i said (i think ppl don't read the posts completely) sis should be down. When there is something to test, those newbies hanging out will do more than the current pro's in sisi hanging out.

Best regards,


I saw it, but ignored it, since you don't understand how software test works.

In order to be effective, for bug fixes and regressions, test is nearly constant.
Hence, the Test Sever needs to be up as much as possible, to be fully effective.

Any down time is wasted time TBH. Wink

McFly
Peanut Factory
Posted - 2009.09.26 09:27:00 - [21]
 

SiSi god mode would compound the already current issue of shenanigans in FD-. However, there is a valid point that a lot of the new things that need to be tested currently require....

1.) get on sisi
2.) find out new skill reqs
3.) start training
4.) week later
5.) test new 'thing'

This works alright for many of us older or long time eve players, if anything we've learned to be patient. However, one thing I did appreciate, when Apocrypha was in heavy sisi testing CCP supplied everyone with the subsystem skills to test out the T3 Cruisers. Which geared testing toward a fairly major new feature in the game.

I dont think god mode should come to sisi, because it wouldn't really lead to anything other than a constant Armageddon day, I was actually waiting for this supercap test just to see what it did to the TQ activity numbers that day.

But anyway, I think what SiSi needs is to continue with the CCP incentive testing, where they push toward a particular feature they want people to play with and try to break. Remember the only reason the supercap test is being made an armageddon day style event, is to get as many supercaps available on SiSi for the test, bad thing is that about 90% of the people involved in the test will not know how current supercaps are flown and we should see some interesting exhibits of supercap fail. You just know someone's gonna warp in a PVE Drake fit leviathan....

Alexandra Alt
Posted - 2009.09.26 12:54:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Rhohan

I saw it, but ignored it, since you don't understand how software test works.

In order to be effective, for bug fixes and regressions, test is nearly constant.
Hence, the Test Sever needs to be up as much as possible, to be fully effective.

Any down time is wasted time TBH. Wink



Regression tests should be tested programatically with a test framework, well at least that's my opinion, as a software developer. Having a test server up needlessly in this situation is not productive, in fact, it just consumes resources, most of the ppl defending the current test server environment are people who use sis as a testing platform for they're convenience, where they can have another replicated server where isk is no issue and/or want to fool around. The people with actually testing interest, won't rly be bothered with the change.

Originally by: McFly

But anyway, I think what SiSi needs is to continue with the CCP incentive testing, where they push toward a particular feature they want people to play with and try to break. Remember the only reason the supercap test is being made an armageddon day style event, is to get as many supercaps available on SiSi for the test, bad thing is that about 90% of the people involved in the test will not know how current supercaps are flown and we should see some interesting exhibits of supercap fail. You just know someone's gonna warp in a PVE Drake fit leviathan....


There is no incentive sorry, at least i don't feel any incentive to test, I can fly a fair ammount of ships well but I don't feel like testing when i'd like to fly ship X which is having alot of attention at a particular time and i can't. And people should stop calling out the 'noobs' playing and fitting ships, those noobs also test, the odds of noobs making things that 'experts' won't do are alot higher, thus finding bugs that 'experts' would never find, and it's just a poor man's excuse just to try and have a valid argument which is not an argument at all.

Best regards,

An Anarchyyt
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.09.26 13:26:00 - [23]
 

There is never nothing to be tested.

Rhohan
Minmatar Marauders
Posted - 2009.09.26 16:41:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Alexandra Alt

Regression tests should be tested programatically with a test framework, well at least that's my opinion, as a software developer...

...Having a test server up needlessly in this situation is not productive, in fact, it just consumes resources...



If you were truly a software developer, you should know that Sisi "could be" part of this "test framework" you just mentioned. All you need is either a custom Client and, or Tools to run the specific automated tests.

Unless you recently have had a personal tour of their QA department, I doubt that you have sufficient insight to state that it is a waste of time for CCP to keep Sisi up on a continuos basis. The "public" test server isn't just for testing new content. Devs, Bug Hunters, and some players all use Sisi to test things, such as bug fixes. And not always just before a new release.

You seem to be making baseless claims in order to counter arguments against your original post.


Comodore John
Gallente
Trixi IFI
Posted - 2009.09.26 18:16:00 - [25]
 

im going to say the same as to this topic as the other 5000 other similar threads, NO!

if everyone had max skills, would you fly anything but a titan/supercarrier? nothing but those ships would get tested tbqh. current skill system is set to make sure everything can get tested instead of a few classes of ships.

if you would like to test something, i suggest taking some time off tq to get some of the skills on tq.

also all the people wanting to have max skills and fly ships theyre a month or more away from will interfere with the people that go on sisi to actually test and bug report and not play around.

Serge Bastana
Gallente
GWA Corp
Posted - 2009.09.26 19:53:00 - [26]
 

One of the problems is trying to get some skills to test things that you can't fly yet on SiSi, if you set out a training plan then it will get wiped at the next mirror.

Possibly an increased training time so you can learn in a few days what might take a few weeks on TQ, this would help players test out some of the faction ships without letting them set up long skill plans that would put them into cap ships if they aren't already capable of flying them.

Bestofworst
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.26 20:02:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Comodore John
im going to say the same as to this topic as the other 5000 other similar threads, NO!

if everyone had max skills, would you fly anything but a titan/supercarrier? nothing but those ships would get tested tbqh. current skill system is set to make sure everything can get tested instead of a few classes of ships.

if you would like to test something, i suggest taking some time off tq to get some of the skills on tq.

also all the people wanting to have max skills and fly ships theyre a month or more away from will interfere with the people that go on sisi to actually test and bug report and not play around.
I personally would only fly caps for the first day or two, but after awhile I'll stick to what is feasible on my TQ because nothing is worse than going on TQ thinking you can kick ass when you can't.

Serge Bastana
Gallente
GWA Corp
Posted - 2009.09.26 20:21:00 - [28]
 

Personally I'm not that interested in caps myself, would rather simply be able to test out some of faction ships that are roughly within my capabilities in general, sub caps.

Being able to speed up training somewhat to gain a small subset of skills, such as Minmatar ship skills to test those that cross over with the Gallente skills in a shorter space of time would be useful. Perhaps what would normally take 3 weeks could take 1.

James McLaughlin
Posted - 2009.09.27 14:32:00 - [29]
 

They should have a rapidly accelerated training schedule on Test Server. I just started training a copied character there to test out some Industry/Mining related things and my other character to start testing some battleship classes.

It is just plain silly that skills progress at the same rate as on normal server. This serves no legitimate purpose. I seriously doubt there are any bugs in the "timer" system.

However, the arguments are kind of silly that the test server would be overwhelmed etc.. that just simply isn't the case. People would get bored and log off due to the lack of players and content, and also who wants to stay on a server that may suffer a wipe sooner than later?

Just my 2 cents. I found this kind of irritating when I finally got test server up and running after all the aggravation.

JMcL

Lia'Kiant
Amarr
Avatars of Ore
TransWarp Ventures
Posted - 2009.10.15 21:22:00 - [30]
 

I agree and disagree at the same time.

I mean, most of the players on EVE are more veteran players in the gaming world, and it makes it kind of pointless to have a server where you can't test out the ships and the new patches just because you have been playing for less then the veteran EVE players.

I really doubt that we would get tons of people in the Test server in the first place. I mean, we already get 10-20 of the best ships in game and that isn't attracting many players. Remember, this isn't World Of Warcraft, Public testing is a lot less obvious here for reasons. I was on earlier and there was only 100-200 players online.

The people that would abuse the auto level 5 skills are already doing that in World of Warcraft.

Truthfully, I would prefer to be able to go onto the test server and be able to test out the new system using ships and weapons that I can't currently use now.

That is all from me.

~Lia'Kiant
~AnonymousWeeaboo
~~Transwarp Ventures <TWV>
~~~Avatars of Ore [AORE]


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