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Hrodgar Ortal
Minmatar
Ma'adim Logistics
Posted - 2009.12.01 13:47:00 - [2491]
 

Originally by: Lucas Quaan
Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal
Apart from that one of the most important and common versions of pvp in eve is the territorial warfare which uses large battleship fleets. You might not like it or find it interesting but fact is that minmatar battleships need to perform in this vital area of eve

Not necessarily, if we give the Minmatar ships a proper role in which they are the obvious choice then I would happily give fleet sniping to Amarr/Caldari. A small gang skirmish role is such a niche where we can make Minmatar ships superior.

I would rather have a choice of tools than a box full of hammers.


A role would be nice. But that role has to mean something.
Lets take the Vigil frig as an example, bonus to target painters, how often is that used in its intended role?
Does that role have a meaning?

The small gang skirmish that many prefer is a very restricted role without any grander meaning (this might change with dominion due to sov changes and so on) while the sniper battleships are the foundation of the larger wars. It is the large BS support fleets together with dreads, and the ability to replace these, which decide and mean something in 0.0.

So sure, give minmatar a role where they are the prefered choice, but that role needs to have a meaning outside of low-sec ganking or roaming gangs which as of yet does not influence the grander scheme of things.

Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.12.01 14:40:00 - [2492]
 

Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal
Originally by: Lucas Quaan
Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal
Apart from that one of the most important and common versions of pvp in eve is the territorial warfare which uses large battleship fleets. You might not like it or find it interesting but fact is that minmatar battleships need to perform in this vital area of eve

Not necessarily, if we give the Minmatar ships a proper role in which they are the obvious choice then I would happily give fleet sniping to Amarr/Caldari. A small gang skirmish role is such a niche where we can make Minmatar ships superior.

I would rather have a choice of tools than a box full of hammers.


A role would be nice. But that role has to mean something.
Lets take the Vigil frig as an example, bonus to target painters, how often is that used in its intended role?
Does that role have a meaning?

The small gang skirmish that many prefer is a very restricted role without any grander meaning (this might change with dominion due to sov changes and so on) while the sniper battleships are the foundation of the larger wars. It is the large BS support fleets together with dreads, and the ability to replace these, which decide and mean something in 0.0.

So sure, give minmatar a role where they are the prefered choice, but that role needs to have a meaning outside of low-sec ganking or roaming gangs which as of yet does not influence the grander scheme of things.

And why is this a bad thing, do you have to use every ship in the same situation? I can assure you that a skirmish Tempest would have plenty of grand meaning outside 0.0 and as you say possibly with the changed sov mechanic as well.

I'm just saying that if you want a large sniper BS fleet you should go Amarr/Caldari anyway. That doesn't mean the skirmish role would be meaningless for Minmatar.

Hrodgar Ortal
Minmatar
Ma'adim Logistics
Posted - 2009.12.01 14:47:00 - [2493]
 

Originally by: Lucas Quaan

And why is this a bad thing, do you have to use every ship in the same situation? I can assure you that a skirmish Tempest would have plenty of grand meaning outside 0.0 and as you say possibly with the changed sov mechanic as well.

I'm just saying that if you want a large sniper BS fleet you should go Amarr/Caldari anyway. That doesn't mean the skirmish role would be meaningless for Minmatar.


It is a bad thing since it doesn't make any sense what so ever that you should be forced to cross train to have a viable option. Noone else is forced to do this so why should minmatar?
Or do you argue that the others should not be able at all to perform at skirmishing?

Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Posted - 2009.12.01 16:26:00 - [2494]
 

Edited by: Kalia Masaer on 01/12/2009 16:27:41
The last poster does have a point, Caldari, Amarr and Gallente all have battleships that will function in a fleet or for small gang warfare. Minmatar BS's are an epic fail in fleet warfare, no real range, low damage, and very fragile. The only thing they have is Alpha, oops forgot to add maneuverable. Neither of their benefits really help out that much in a large battle.

Though I guess you could have a make do phoon with cruise launchers, but again cruises are not popular in fleet fights.

Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.12.01 16:31:00 - [2495]
 

Edited by: Lucas Quaan on 01/12/2009 16:35:18
Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal
It is a bad thing since it doesn't make any sense what so ever that you should be forced to cross train to have a viable option. Noone else is forced to do this so why should minmatar?
Or do you argue that the others should not be able at all to perform at skirmishing?

Caldari have no drone ship. Amarr no ECM recon. Gallente no missile ship.

Yes, I'm suggesting people cross train to exploit the advantages of different races. Though with Pattern's suggestion of a falloff bonus on the Maelstrom we even get a decent fleet sniper in an interesting, racially flavoured fashion.

We can make it so that the Tempest becomes a good ship in a skirmish role that no other BS fits today. I say we do that and if you want to come play you cross train Minmatar.

edit: Seeing as the projectile changes are done already, we should probably move the ship specific discussion to the other thread. Tempest/Maelstrom

Yankunytjatjara
Amarr
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2009.12.01 16:49:00 - [2496]
 

Nuts Nougat - I appreciate your example, looks like there are some brains too in this horde. While we disagree on the stabber (in my experience it wins: once it's under the omen guns, after the initial run, the omen's cap is in such a bad state that it gets neuted to stfu-ness really fast), there really isn't much to say about the superiority of the ruppie.

Originally by: Beverly Sparks
I would not care at all if there were no changes to Minmatar sub-BS, but they really do need help at BS level.

Well uh, sort of agree? What I said was, in a nutshell, I don't care about bs but the changes to small ships are bad.

Originally by: Meeko Atari
Do you really not see the usefulness of scramblers?

So tell me, in an omen, do you use eamp only (then stfu about scorch, and good luck with rax and ruppie) or you stay at scorch/disruptor range with a scram in your mid (lol you're pointless)? Given your pointless posts I bet it's the latter.

Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal
It is a bad thing since it doesn't make any sense what so ever that you should be forced to cross train to have a viable option. Noone else is forced to do this so why should minmatar?
Or do you argue that the others should not be able at all to perform at skirmishing

What I've been saying is that laser ships already aren't good at that - with possibly the exception of the zealot, that still is better in large fleets though.

Originally by: Beverly Sparks
The complaint here is more about metagame. Except for very small gang PvP, short range weapons are dead.

I think we're getting near the bottom of the problem here. I use this quote to summarize also all the answers that say - and I understand the point - we want to compete in other niches too. Well, that sounds good and all, but in the name of balance you must see how invading the fleet warfare specialization would leave amarr without its niche (it would be like giving amarr ships speed and mids).

On the other hand, I agree with you that there is a bad sign in the excessive number of amarr BS pilots. What does this tell us? Scorch nerf? MMMHHH... I find this answer simplistic and stupid.

The REAL problem imho, is that the metagame is currently INCREDIBLY SKEWED towards blobs and RR! Given the buffer+ranged dps specialization of amarr, it is obviously the favoured choice. Therefore, the hordes skill the fotm.

==> THE ANSWER OF THE ANTI-FOTM MASSES: nurf scorch.

Well this is wrong. The problem is NOT scorch. The problem is the dominance of blobs after the speed nurf. You are curing a symptom and not the disease.

Nerf the real problem instead, and you will see a shine of actual tactics, as in range dependent ones. Because obviously a great agility and speed isn't of much use when you have to sit at 5k from the RR primary. A great step was done with wormholes, where each single ship counts a lot more than in a blob, and warpins are easier... With a proper warpin, nothing beats a mega. In a 3 v 6, a minnie gang can dance around the others and win the day. Call that too a minor side of eve if you want... But all these minor sides add up!

How to nerf blobs? Imho, with more new possibilities that make speedy ships shine - more side games. The scorch whine only cripples minnies more tbh: either you fail, and you are left being whiners that nobody listens to... Or you succeed, somebody changes some small stuff in the numbers, scorch deals a little less damage thanks to tracking or whatnot at the same ranges, and behold - with a small increase in blob numbers EVERYTHING STAYS THE SAME, because the concept of RR gangs is too good to change in the current metagame... Everybody would still be sitting within 5k of the RR primary, speeds moot, and amarr still the obvious choice.

And once more (didnt the ecm joke-nerf teach you anything), you'd be given smoke for a change. Don't you ever learn?

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2009.12.01 17:11:00 - [2497]
 

Originally by: Yankunytjatjara
....lots of crap...
==> THE ANSWER OF THE ANTI-FOTM MASSES: nurf scorch.

...
Baby Jeezuz is crying because in spite of myself, I'm still responding to your trolls. You really, truly are stupid, aren't you? You didn't understand that that the suggestion to nerf lasers/scorch/your mother was SARCASM, did you? Ok, in every language that I know, since English seems to escape you, I will play state the following:
NO ONE WANTS TO NERF SCORCH OR LASERS
KEINER WILL SCORCH ODER LASERS NERFEN
PERSONNE NE VEUT FAIRE NERF A TES PETITES LUMIAIRES NI AUX GROSS BOBOS SCORCH
GEEN MENS WILL JE LASERS OF JE SCORCHIES VAN JE NEEMEN
NADIE QUIERE TUS LUCHOS O TUS SCORCHOS, POQUITO BURRO
ES WET NIEMERT DINI LIECHTLI VO DIR WEGNEE
ISTEMYORUM LASERLER'NIN
Capiche?

Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.12.01 19:38:00 - [2498]
 

Edited by: Theron Gyrow on 01/12/2009 19:38:27
Originally by: Bomberlocks
Originally by: Yankunytjatjara
....lots of crap...
==> THE ANSWER OF THE ANTI-FOTM MASSES: nurf scorch.

...
Baby Jeezuz is crying because in spite of myself, I'm still responding to your trolls. You really, truly are stupid, aren't you? You didn't understand that that the suggestion to nerf lasers/scorch/your mother was SARCASM, did you?


Next sentence in the quoted post:

Originally by: Yankunytjatjara

Well this is wrong. The problem is NOT scorch.

And he continues in the same vein for a bit.

Consider trying to read what you are responding to the next time? Pretty please?

Chestrano
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.12.01 20:52:00 - [2499]
 

Edited by: Chestrano on 01/12/2009 20:53:43
Originally by: Bomberlocks
Originally by: Yankunytjatjara

KEINER WILL SCORCH ODER LASERS NERFEN



Sry, just because Im german and doing my diploma in Lasertechnologie: In the german language the plural of Laser is still Laser.

Meeko Atari
Posted - 2009.12.01 22:52:00 - [2500]
 

Originally by: Meeko Atari
Do you really not see the usefulness of scramblers?

So tell me, in an omen, do you use eamp only (then stfu about scorch, and good luck with rax and ruppie) or you stay at scorch/disruptor range with a scram in your mid (lol you're pointless)? Given your pointless posts I bet it's the latter.


I think you misunderstood / misquoted me.
let me clarify..

1. you self admitted that you have no T2 ( ship skills )
2. you fight in Red Vs.Blue ( while fun is not the only form of PvP in Eve )
3. you take a stance of superiority and base all forms of PvP on your very limited View

Come back and post when you have enough skills to fly the ships your condemning.

Done feeding the troll



Chestrano
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.12.01 23:49:00 - [2501]
 

The tracking computer is still buggy, dont get any falloff bonus if i fit one, even with range script.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2009.12.02 00:19:00 - [2502]
 

Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Edited by: Theron Gyrow on 01/12/2009 19:38:27
Originally by: Bomberlocks
Originally by: Yankunytjatjara
....lots of crap...
==> THE ANSWER OF THE ANTI-FOTM MASSES: nurf scorch.

...
Baby Jeezuz is crying because in spite of myself, I'm still responding to your trolls. You really, truly are stupid, aren't you? You didn't understand that that the suggestion to nerf lasers/scorch/your mother was SARCASM, did you?


Next sentence in the quoted post:

Originally by: Yankunytjatjara

Well this is wrong. The problem is NOT scorch.

And he continues in the same vein for a bit.

Consider trying to read what you are responding to the next time? Pretty please?
Why don't YOU try reading what I posted. I know what he posted. He posted that everyone in this thread wants laser/scorch/your and his mothers nerfed. Even writing in ALL CAPS in 7 languages, and you don't get it either. Geez, is this a forum for the cognition impaired? Man, I give up.

Lemmy Kravitz
Minmatar
Rebirth.
Posted - 2009.12.02 04:46:00 - [2503]
 

Edited by: Lemmy Kravitz on 02/12/2009 04:47:06
OMG they actually stuck with it =(. My small arties are missing cruisers with carbonized lead at optimal with only 50/ms transversal. I figuered there would be some minor tweaking before going live with this but jesus! Put the guns back where they were, atleast i could hit things with the old guns. Unless dumbass CCP assumes that if you fly mimi you have to have tracking computers in your mids. I feel like I got nerfed, not rebalanced, or even boosted. NOZH YOU BLOW DEAD DOGS FOR QUARTERS, I wish you ill, I hope you lose your job, and end up only finding work as a daylaborer, because people realize what a moron you are.

Alfred vonBoring
Posted - 2009.12.02 05:59:00 - [2504]
 

Originally by: Lemmy Kravitz
Edited by: Lemmy Kravitz on 02/12/2009 04:47:06
OMG they actually stuck with it =(. My small arties are missing cruisers with carbonized lead at optimal with only 50/ms transversal. I figuered there would be some minor tweaking before going live with this but jesus! Put the guns back where they were, atleast i could hit things with the old guns. Unless dumbass CCP assumes that if you fly mimi you have to have tracking computers in your mids. I feel like I got nerfed, not rebalanced, or even boosted. NOZH YOU BLOW DEAD DOGS FOR QUARTERS, I wish you ill, I hope you lose your job, and end up only finding work as a daylaborer, because people realize what a moron you are.


Er... Neither the tracking nor optimal of small artillery was lowered in any way? Are you sure there's only 50m/s of transversal, *including* any imparted by your own speed? You wouldn't be orbitting with your MWD on or anything, would you? Because that would be pretty stupid. And we all know you aren't stupid.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.12.02 06:15:00 - [2505]
 

Now that Dominion is live I just wanted to say...

Thank you CCP for looking into Projectiles. Thanks for listening to your players. Virtually every change in this thread began with a thread in the forums, and I'm sure CSM had a lot to do with getting Projectiles under the microscope.

There are still some things we'd like to see changed, but I'll save it for a different time and a different post. Wink

Xing Fey
Posted - 2009.12.02 08:41:00 - [2506]
 

Originally by: Alfred vonBoring
Originally by: Lemmy Kravitz
Edited by: Lemmy Kravitz on 02/12/2009 04:47:06
OMG they actually stuck with it =(. My small arties are missing cruisers with carbonized lead at optimal with only 50/ms transversal. I figuered there would be some minor tweaking before going live with this but jesus! Put the guns back where they were, atleast i could hit things with the old guns. Unless dumbass CCP assumes that if you fly mimi you have to have tracking computers in your mids. I feel like I got nerfed, not rebalanced, or even boosted. NOZH YOU BLOW DEAD DOGS FOR QUARTERS, I wish you ill, I hope you lose your job, and end up only finding work as a daylaborer, because people realize what a moron you are.


Er... Neither the tracking nor optimal of small artillery was lowered in any way? Are you sure there's only 50m/s of transversal, *including* any imparted by your own speed? You wouldn't be orbitting with your MWD on or anything, would you? Because that would be pretty stupid. And we all know you aren't stupid.


Actualy, lower tier guns got a tracking boost of sorts.

but soem people jsut like to whine...

mikoloco
Posted - 2009.12.02 09:18:00 - [2507]
 

Projectile falloff changes seemed to look great on paper only. Yesterday I logged into Dominion and my Stabber Fleet Issue (180mm dual AC + 3 x ambits + barrage)has now falloff 21 km from 24 before Dominion. Needless to say that ship which was builded with dedication to rely on range and which I liked very much is now much worser than it was before. Getting bit more damage on t1 ammo means nothing to minmatar which greatly rely on falloff. By nerfig ambit rigs You just made many falloff dedicataed setups crap. Falloff bonuses on bigger guns (425mm) doesn't mean much since they can be fitted mostly to 2 ships (hurricane, sleipnir).

gascanu
Posted - 2009.12.02 09:55:00 - [2508]
 

CCP, this "boost" its a ****ing joke!
really, when i've first seen this topic, few weeks ago, i was thinking- "hmm, i'm not going to read this, no matter what the do, they can't make it worse than the current state"; well guess what: you almost did it!

anyway, thx for the nag "stealth" nerf and for many other "buf fssssss"; and see you in 1-2 years, when the real boost it's going to happen

Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.12.02 10:17:00 - [2509]
 

Originally by: mikoloco
Projectile falloff changes seemed to look great on paper only. Yesterday I logged into Dominion and my Stabber Fleet Issue (180mm dual AC + 3 x ambits + barrage)has now falloff 21 km from 24 before Dominion. Needless to say that ship which was builded with dedication to rely on range and which I liked very much is now much worser than it was before. Getting bit more damage on t1 ammo means nothing to minmatar which greatly rely on falloff. By nerfig ambit rigs You just made many falloff dedicataed setups crap. Falloff bonuses on bigger guns (425mm) doesn't mean much since they can be fitted mostly to 2 ships (hurricane, sleipnir).
This is due to stacking penalty. Ambits weren't stacking penalized before dominion.

Mi Ko
Posted - 2009.12.02 10:50:00 - [2510]
 

I know it's due to stacking penalty but effect of it is that "upgrade" to projectiles nerfed many faloff based setups

Hun Jakuza
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming
Posted - 2009.12.02 10:51:00 - [2511]
 

Edited by: Hun Jakuza on 02/12/2009 10:55:28
Originally by: gascanu
CCP, this "boost" its a ****ing joke!
really, when i've first seen this topic, few weeks ago, i was thinking- "hmm, i'm not going to read this, no matter what the do, they can't make it worse than the current state"; well guess what: you almost did it!

anyway, thx for the nag "stealth" nerf and for many other "buf fssssss"; and see you in 1-2 years, when the real boost it's going to happen


Nvm, they did it!!! :D
They nerfed my naglfar i must learn amarr,they nerfed my moros, i can shot with drones +64dps than dominix (lost 150% dps), they did an unusable navy dominix which got +1 muahahaha med slot. They did a nerfed fleet tempest and machariel.

Yes they did an unfitteable Phoon with 5/5 slot but their PGs enough for nothing.

They fcked up the projectiles and make a cosmetic changes, which cant solve any problem.
But be positive :D they boosted the overpowered laser user ships, like bhaalgorn. Whooa they give 3rd marauder laser BS bonus class after Nightmare. (like paladin double damage bonuses for 4 guns)

Oh i almost forget they created for caldari an overpowereed dread and gave the faction guristas ships max drone damage and overpowered passive shield tank.
CCP made it again. Yes they did.... nerfed matar and gallente and boosted again the amarr and caldari.
Ridicoulus. But be positive one more year and we would be playing with amarr online.

mikoloco
Posted - 2009.12.02 10:58:00 - [2512]
 

Ye if they introduced stacking to ambit rigs why not introduce it to trimarks heh? I guess it will be too much crying then.

To mare
Amarr
Advanced Technology
Posted - 2009.12.02 11:14:00 - [2513]
 

gotta thanks CCP for just ignoring the last month of feedback.

Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.12.02 11:43:00 - [2514]
 

Originally by: mikoloco
Ye if they introduced stacking to ambit rigs why not introduce it to trimarks heh? I guess it will be too much crying then.
That would directly nerf amarr, since pretty much all their ships armor tank. Such heresy can not be tolerated!

Cornette
Gallente
Solar Revenue Service
TAXU
Posted - 2009.12.02 12:17:00 - [2515]
 

I think the best boost they gave the tempest was the removal of the Doomsday device and the doubling of loaded ammo clips.


Now if only they had added falloff to artillery like they did to AC and fixed the trajectory analysis skill so it doesn't take 21 days to get level five, I would had been quite happy.


And, here is a idea: to fit a full rack of 1400mm's II and a microwarpdrive for 0.0 fleets, you currently need a RCU II, leaving you with only 5 lows for damage, tank..

What if they added enough grid on the Tempest so it would be the only sniper that don't have to use a fitting mod to work like one?


And one more minor idea: give tempest/fleet tempest 125m3 of dronebay and 100m3 of drone control, so you can choose among 4 hvy drones + 5 lights...

Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2009.12.02 15:08:00 - [2516]
 

I can totally dig the changes. Why 3 long range ammo types though? It's the least used range. Can we move proton to mid range? (Maybe mix some thermal in with nuclear?)

Proton was only a 20% range bonus which meant it still did some decent damage. It was useful sometimes when you needed em damage without a huge range penalty. Now it does so little damage it's rather useless. No one that shield tanks doesn't boost em resist, and em is almost pointless vs armor. I used it exclusively in missions vs amarr navy along with phased plasma or emp. Now I don't have that option.

With decent skills, large artillery outranges ship lock range if you use ammo with no range mod. I really don't see proton being useful ever as long range.

Or give us a 3rd mid range ammo with some em damage on it. Charged tungsten?


Lemmy Kravitz
Minmatar
Rebirth.
Posted - 2009.12.02 15:47:00 - [2517]
 

Edited by: Lemmy Kravitz on 02/12/2009 16:06:47
Edited by: Lemmy Kravitz on 02/12/2009 16:01:15
Edited by: Lemmy Kravitz on 02/12/2009 15:47:59
Also just noticed something, how come we got the only ammo with a tracking nerf multiplier????? you multiply something by a .x it's going to get crappy on you. it explains why I've been missing with my small arties. was it always there? I don't remember, and aside from the damage change it's the only thing that sticks out.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.12.02 15:57:00 - [2518]
 

Originally by: Mi Ko
I know it's due to stacking penalty but effect of it is that "upgrade" to projectiles nerfed many faloff based setups


You must now adapt. You can increase your falloff and leave all other stats the same if you use some logic. It happens a lot after a patch that your favorite fit is no longer the most optimal one.

Don't cry, think. Wink

Originally by: Cornette

And, here is a idea: to fit a full rack of 1400mm's II and a microwarpdrive for 0.0 fleets, you currently need a RCU II, leaving you with only 5 lows for damage, tank..


You can do it with an ACR rig instead I've found, from the dinking around I've done with sniping. Still sucks it takes some sort of fitting mod, I agree.

mikoloco
Posted - 2009.12.02 16:37:00 - [2519]
 

Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: Mi Ko
I know it's due to stacking penalty but effect of it is that "upgrade" to projectiles nerfed many faloff based setups


You must now adapt. You can increase your falloff and leave all other stats the same if you use some logic. It happens a lot after a patch that your favorite fit is no longer the most optimal one.

Don't cry, think. Wink



I think this is bull**** since it was supposed to be "boost" to projectiles. FYI I can't have all the other stats the same because I have to sacrifice slots for modules which should be occupied by something much more useful.

Nathanial Victor
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.12.02 16:44:00 - [2520]
 

Edited by: Nathanial Victor on 02/12/2009 16:45:06
Originally by: mikoloco
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: Mi Ko
I know it's due to stacking penalty but effect of it is that "upgrade" to projectiles nerfed many faloff based setups


You must now adapt. You can increase your falloff and leave all other stats the same if you use some logic. It happens a lot after a patch that your favorite fit is no longer the most optimal one.

Don't cry, think. Wink



I think this is bull**** since it was supposed to be "boost" to projectiles. FYI I can't have all the other stats the same because I have to sacrifice slots for modules which should be occupied by something much more useful.


now you will experience the awe that is minmatar, and CCP's split slot layout plan comes to fruition. Fill all mids w/ track coms, fill all lows with enhancers and gyros. add VERTICAL and you are un****ingSTOPABLE KBLAHHBOOM!!POOSHKPLOWIE!!!


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