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Caldor Mansi
Posted - 2009.10.29 12:36:00 - [1501]
 

Originally by: Secluse

1. I have read many of your SHC posts, so I know your knowledge about the subject. However, why is it not wise to compare projectiles against lasers, the benchmark of weapon systems? If lasers are not nerfed, why should we settle for a buff below competitive? And seriously, 22km falloff (38%) vs 22km optimal (100%). I get what you saying, but let's give the process some due diligence, this boost will be it for a long time.

2. Real damage type selection needs to be put into context - you get to choose once because reloading in battle is not an option with 10sec reload time, but it is a huge plus. However, if you want your 22km falloff, you have no damage type selection, it's barrage. These boosts don't compound, each one is addressing different weaknesses, and each need to be tested as such.

3. I've never had an issue with boosting blasters if projectiles got love. I think the 2 were balanced prior to this, lasers were the isolated issue. But think about it, why would CCP nerf? Just like WoW, you boost or add incentive to train new content, keep subscription, and so the game evolves. Balance is great, but balance is stagnation, and stagnation is MMO death. So we have cycles of power, people chasing the FotM, and CCP smiles.

All-in-all, let's give it a go, identify the strengths and weaknesses, compare against lasers and blasters, and conclude. Since I believe lasers won't be touched, and the projectile changes adding some great flavor, I suspect blasters will get boosted and the cycle continues.


1. Contrary to lasers, projectile boats are capable to dictate the range so it compensate falloff mechanics. That much to AC.
3. If you have to touch blasters just because you have just touched projectiles, your balancing attempt has failed. All you did is random stupid change and break 10 other things.
Doing bad job =/= stagnation, get it right.

Pulses need no nerf, boosting projectiles as they are now is the same ignorant change that caused pulses to have the edge now due messed up speeds.


Secluse
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2009.10.29 12:43:00 - [1502]
 

I've shown that the 2x TE hurricane is hardly over-powered, yet you put it on your list? I have done the same with the wolf. And yes, I know the Sleipnir will be bad, it's a falloff bonused ship - if you read instead of just wrote crap, you'd realize I've already said both things you conveniently ignore. Saying it's 'over-powered' doesn't make it so, no matter how many times you say it, provide some data.

Also, a shield tanked Rupture? Seriously, a ship that is great because it can fit an over-sized plate now with a single LSE (or no tackle) no web to assist your 425's tracking. Seriously gtfo with that comment.

Find me a single AC fit, with data, that clearly over-powers the pulse equivalent, and let's chat. I fully agree that each tweak in isolation was asked for, and that the combo may over-power the system, but at least provide some data so we can assess what needs to be tweaked. I refuse to balance by the exception so that average is sub-par, balance by the average and tweak to correct the exception.

Secluse
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2009.10.29 12:50:00 - [1503]
 

Originally by: Caldor Mansi

1. Contrary to lasers, projectile boats are capable to dictate the range so it compensate falloff mechanics. That much to AC.
3. If you have to touch blasters just because you have just touched projectiles, your balancing attempt has failed. All you did is random stupid change and break 10 other things.
Doing bad job =/= stagnation, get it right.

Pulses need no nerf, boosting projectiles as they are now is the same ignorant change that caused pulses to have the edge now due messed up speeds.


you say that pulses need no nerf, but say that pulses have the edge, and that projectiles and hybrids should remain status quo. Sorry, the weapons systems are not balanced. I believe the easiest fix is for pulses to be corrected, rather than tweaking projectiles and hyvrids. However, since CCP isn't going that route, I will support projectiles and hybrids being adjusted to be competitive against lasers.

Projectiles are broken in the current mechanics, they need a tweak. Let's get the right tweak, whatever it may be.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.29 12:53:00 - [1504]
 

Just letting you folks know, I've been running damage type EHP VS DPS numbers for the last 40-50 minutes or so. It's looking like at the BS level, given standard fits, the changes won't upset too much.

Maels (even firing the new Fusion) will probably still die to Abaddons, but the fight will be close. Megas should still be able to eat either of them at close range. Tempests are still lol against anything, which I took as good news.

(If a Tempest can own a Mega at point blank, something is horribly wrong. But the fight just got a lot closer.)

I'll have to keep running the numbers, but it looks like BSs will be fine. It's the BC/Cruiser class and Frigate classes I'm more worried about though, where Minmatar was already excellent.

Secluse
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2009.10.29 13:07:00 - [1505]
 

Edited by: Secluse on 29/10/2009 13:11:07
Originally by: Seriously Bored

I'll have to keep running the numbers, but it looks like BSs will be fine. It's the BC/Cruiser class and Frigate classes I'm more worried about though, where Minmatar was already excellent.



At the Hurricane level, it looks like the falloff by tier may be a bit high. 425's with 2x TE remains very competitive against lasers from 0 to ~18km (as in with 5-10%) and out dps's at the tail-end. The Harb gets better dps from drones than Cane with HML's / drones, but the combo tweak of falloff per tier, and TE, may be a bit heavy for ships that will have falloff bonuses or where a 2x TE can be fit (Cane / Cyclone?).

It's tough, it's nice not being forced to fit 3x ambit, but maybe TE / TC bonus, or tier bonus, needs to be scaled back for small and medium?

Also, 425's are great for falloff, but then you lose the tracking bonus of the 180 or 220, which hurts if you want to fight up close. It feels like with D180's you would be a great gank boat (and lose the range), while with 425's be a great range boat (and lose the tracking). In other words, Minnie finally have versatility and be good at it, but the combo may be a bit much?

Caldor Mansi
Posted - 2009.10.29 13:10:00 - [1506]
 

Originally by: Secluse

you say that pulses need no nerf, but say that pulses have the edge, and that projectiles and hybrids should remain status quo. Sorry, the weapons systems are not balanced. I believe the easiest fix is for pulses to be corrected, rather than tweaking projectiles and hyvrids. However, since CCP isn't going that route, I will support projectiles and hybrids being adjusted to be competitive against lasers.

Projectiles are broken in the current mechanics, they need a tweak. Let's get the right tweak, whatever it may be.


Range become an issue in general after the speed crap(ie. ECM ships) and pulses are not an exception of this. Pulses are fine, speeds are ****ed up. Adjusting everything else just to fit broken mechanics is once again a bad move. CCP, as well as some people here, needs to learn 2 things:
1) Analyze and address real issue.
2) Do soft touch changes instead of heavy swings of nerf bat.

I don't mind changing anything but it needs some thought out concept.
As it is now, turrets are quite balanced. It might need some light tweaks here and there but no overhaul is really needed. All platforms are quite ok - strictly in gunnery terms.

If there is an issue, it is mostly not an issue related to guns but ships or other mechanics.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.10.29 13:15:00 - [1507]
 

Edited by: Gypsio III on 29/10/2009 13:19:23

BTW, after we boost projectiles, then boost hybrids, I'll be starting some "boost missiles" whinethreads. Razz

Or you could just tweak laser tracking a bit, alter some projectile stuff a bit and fix T2 ammo (including Scorch). It would be a lot simpler and avoid this horrible power creep.

Caldor Mansi
Posted - 2009.10.29 13:16:00 - [1508]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
BTW, after we boost projectiles, then boost hybrids, I'll be starting some "boost missiles" whinethreads. Razz


This!

Secluse
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2009.10.29 13:18:00 - [1509]
 

Originally by: Caldor Mansi
Range become an issue in general after the speed crap(ie. ECM ships) and pulses are not an exception of this. Pulses are fine, speeds are ****ed up. Adjusting everything else just to fit broken mechanics is once again a bad move. CCP, as well as some people here, needs to learn 2 things:
1) Analyze and address real issue.
2) Do soft touch changes instead of heavy swings of nerf bat.

I don't mind changing anything but it needs some thought out concept.
As it is now, turrets are quite balanced. It might need some light tweaks here and there but no overhaul is really needed. All platforms are quite ok - strictly in gunnery terms.

If there is an issue, it is mostly not an issue related to guns but ships or other mechanics.



Sorry, but turrets are not even close to being balanced. The combination of the laser tracking boost, EM resist nerf, speed nerf, has resulted in range being king, and lasers being dominant. Either you re-address those changes, or you need to fix what lags behind.

The real 'issue' is the tracking formula since EvE is directionless. Because of the fact that orbiting a ship results in you out-tracking yourself drastically reduces the benefit of speed today. I agree that there are many ways of fixing this problem, but CCP is headed down this road so I'll use the tools available to me.

In other words, don't tell us that the issue isn't related to guns, tell CCP, we're working with what we get.

Caldor Mansi
Posted - 2009.10.29 13:32:00 - [1510]
 

Edited by: Caldor Mansi on 29/10/2009 13:35:12
Originally by: Secluse

Sorry, but turrets are not even close to being balanced. The combination of the laser tracking boost, EM resist nerf, speed nerf, has resulted in range being king, and lasers being dominant. Either you re-address those changes, or you need to fix what lags behind.

The real 'issue' is the tracking formula since EvE is directionless. Because of the fact that orbiting a ship results in you out-tracking yourself drastically reduces the benefit of speed today. I agree that there are many ways of fixing this problem, but CCP is headed down this road so I'll use the tools available to me.

In other words, don't tell us that the issue isn't related to guns, tell CCP, we're working with what we get.


Yes, the RANGE is the king, not lasers. They are not OP, it is just there is a sever lack of mechanics that would work towards ranges. THAT is the issue. Nerfing pulses because of this is as bad as boosting projectiles or hybrids because of exact same reasons.

The problem is, if you accept the way CCP is doing the changes, they won't change the way they do it. I understand that this might be a choice of lesser evil but I am not satisfied with that.


The basic flaw in current process is that no one is asking a fundamental question: What do you want to achieve with the changes?

Nozh or people here are randomly throwing the ideas like ammo changes, falloff, tracking boost or laser nerf but no single word about how are projectiles and turrets in general are supposed to look like and how proposed changes are helping it.

To mare
Amarr
Advanced Technology
Posted - 2009.10.29 13:34:00 - [1511]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
Edited by: Gypsio III on 29/10/2009 13:19:23

BTW, after we boost projectiles, then boost hybrids, I'll be starting some "boost missiles" whinethreads. Razz

Or you could just tweak laser tracking a bit, alter some projectile stuff a bit and fix T2 ammo (including Scorch). It would be a lot simpler and avoid this horrible power creep.



hybrids are fine:
blaster dominate on short range
rails have the same dps of arty and more optimal

the only problem when this update will hit TQ is laser still OP

Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2009.10.29 13:43:00 - [1512]
 

Originally by: Secluse
Edited by: Secluse on 29/10/2009 13:11:07
Originally by: Seriously Bored

I'll have to keep running the numbers, but it looks like BSs will be fine. It's the BC/Cruiser class and Frigate classes I'm more worried about though, where Minmatar was already excellent.



At the Hurricane level, it looks like the falloff by tier may be a bit high. 425's with 2x TE remains very competitive against lasers from 0 to ~18km (as in with 5-10%) and out dps's at the tail-end. The Harb gets better dps from drones than Cane with HML's / drones, but the combo tweak of falloff per tier, and TE, may be a bit heavy for ships that will have falloff bonuses or where a 2x TE can be fit (Cane / Cyclone?).

It's tough, it's nice not being forced to fit 3x ambit, but maybe TE / TC bonus, or tier bonus, needs to be scaled back for small and medium?

Also, 425's are great for falloff, but then you lose the tracking bonus of the 180 or 220, which hurts if you want to fight up close. It feels like with D180's you would be a great gank boat (and lose the range), while with 425's be a great range boat (and lose the tracking). In other words, Minnie finally have versatility and be good at it, but the combo may be a bit much?


Basically 180mm now have the range of blasters and the tracking of blasters, while 425mm will have almost same damage at range as lasers, but with better falloff and 20% more tracking. 220mm fall in somwhere in between. So, since dps across tiers is nearly the same you have a choice of either tracking or range.

Also 2x TE hurricane means you nerf your speed due to not fitting nanos or your tank due to not fitting pdus, so it's always a compromise. And that's good, you get the choice between decent fits, but can't do all at the same time. And that's good, I want people to always wonder if they should come in close and try to kill me as fast as they can while hoping I don't have nanos fitted so they can track, or maybe kite and hope I don't have range fitted. Then, there's always the 1600mm plate setup that again goes into it's own category... These changes are starting to look better and better ugh

Besides, the harb will probably still kill your shield buffer cane before you're through his armor, since armor has better buffer no? 1600mm plates and all.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.29 13:43:00 - [1513]
 

Edited by: Seriously Bored on 29/10/2009 13:56:35
Some other interesting things. No one is taking a look at Artillery, so I thought I'd give it a shot. Using Liang's Tempest Sniper fit from earlier...

[Tempest, 0.0 Sniperpest Cheap]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Reactor Control Unit II
Damage Control II

100MN MicroWarpdrive I
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range

1400mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Sabretooth Light Missile
Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Sabretooth Light Missile

Large Ionic Field Projector I
Large Ionic Field Projector I
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I



We get ~348.7 Turret DPS with 152KM Optimal + 92.9KM Falloff, assuming Ambits don't stack. (Slightly less if they are doubled and do stack.) Which equals almost exactly 300 DPS at its 190KM lock range.

Using the new RF EMP/Fusion/PP, we end up with 601 DPS (using 10% more than 1200mm DPS for the stat), and 42 + 92.9KM range. Which gives you 417DPS at 100KM, and 177 DPS at 150KM.

Using the new RF Carb Lead, you end up with a rough estimate of 276 gun DPS, doing roughly the same at 150KM, and 198 DPS at 190KM.

Looks like sniping got better, but the long range ammo is still pretty questionable. Better in between 100KM and 190KM, but not by an incredible amount.

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.10.29 13:54:00 - [1514]
 

Originally by: Seriously Bored
Some other interesting things. No one is taking a look at Artillery, so I thought I'd give it a shot. Using Liang's Tempest Sniper fit from earlier...

[Tempest, 0.0 Sniperpest Cheap]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Reactor Control Unit II
Damage Control II

100MN MicroWarpdrive I
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range

1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Sabretooth Light Missile
Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Sabretooth Light Missile

Large Ionic Field Projector I
Large Ionic Field Projector I
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I



We get ~348.7 Turret DPS with 152KM Optimal + 92.9KM Falloff, assuming Ambits don't stack. (Slightly less if they are doubled and do stack.) Which equals almost exactly 300 DPS at its 190KM lock range.

Using the new RF EMP/Fusion/PP, we end up with 601 DPS (using 10% more than 1200mm DPS for the stat), and 42 + 92.9KM range. Which gives you 417DPS at 100KM, and 177 DPS at 150KM.

Using the new RF Carb Lead, you end up with a rough estimate of 276 gun DPS, doing roughly the same at 150KM, and 198 DPS at 190KM.

Looks like sniping got better, but the long range ammo is still pretty questionable. Better in between 100KM and 190KM, but not by an incredible amount.
1200mm artillery won't get an optimal of 152km.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.29 13:59:00 - [1515]
 

Edited by: Seriously Bored on 29/10/2009 14:00:33
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
1200mm artillery won't get an optimal of 152km.


Sorry, that was a mistake. I had 1200 loaded to reap the base DPS + reload stats (so that I could simply add 10%, instead of fudging the new 1400 stats). All the numbers I quoted and the setup were assuming 1400mm, and I edited my original post. (The DPS will actually be a bit higher in all areas, because of the quadruple ammo count VS current 1400mm).

One side effect: All other sniper setups are going to get better as well because of extended falloff. But Caldari and Amarr pilots don't fit as many range mods, and I can assume they won't be eager to fight in falloff like we will.

Caldor Mansi
Posted - 2009.10.29 14:03:00 - [1516]
 

Originally by: Seriously Bored

Sorry, that was a mistake. I had 1200 loaded to reap the base DPS + reload stats (so that I could simply add 10%, instead of fudging the new 1400 stats). All the numbers I quoted and the setup were assuming 1400mm, and I edited my original post. (The DPS will actually be a bit higher in all areas, because of the quadruple ammo count VS current 1400mm).

One side effect: All other sniper setups are going to get better as well because of extended falloff. But Caldari and Amarr pilots don't fit as many range mods, and I can assume they won't be eager to fight in falloff like we will.


You can't fit full rack of 1400mm and plate on Tempest.

btw. why are people insisting on using Tempest as sniper platform?

Secluse
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2009.10.29 14:05:00 - [1517]
 

Originally by: Caldor Mansi

Yes, the RANGE is the king, not lasers. They are not OP, it is just there is a sever lack of mechanics that would work towards ranges. THAT is the issue. Nerfing pulses because of this is as bad as boosting projectiles or hybrids because of exact same reasons.

Your logic lacks logic. If Range is king, and lasers are the king of range, lasers are king by association.

Since you cannot 'fix' range itself, your options are speed, which resulted in EVE falling over and the speed nerf, or tweaking weapon systems to span across that range. Projectiles, ac's and art, use falloff to span that range, which due to hit quality and base stats, is a joke compared to lasers and optimal, hence the boost to falloff.

Since you believe Range should be fixed, what is your solution knowing speed cannot be used, and these falloff changes not being acceptable? There is nothing left.

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.10.29 14:05:00 - [1518]
 

Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 29/10/2009 14:06:30
Quote:
btw. why are people insisting on using Tempest as sniper platform?
Rose tinted glasses.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.29 14:06:00 - [1519]
 

Edited by: Seriously Bored on 29/10/2009 14:11:15
Originally by: Caldor Mansi

You can't fit full rack of 1400mm and plate on Tempest.

btw. why are people insisting on using Tempest as sniper platform?


Please note the RCU. ED: Also please note, it ain't my setup. I'm using an example that was given earlier in the thread. I would drop the ambit for an ACR, and use a Tracking Enhancer in the low instead.

And the reason I used the Tempest? Because it sucks more than the Mael, (meaning the Mael would only be better damage wise) and because Liang's setup got more initial falloff than his snipe Mael fit from earlier.

Caldor Mansi
Posted - 2009.10.29 14:20:00 - [1520]
 

Originally by: Secluse
Your logic lacks logic. If Range is king, and lasers are the king of range, lasers are king by association.

There is no logic fail, it is called targeting the issue. Fix the issue instead of 'associations'.

Originally by: Secluse

Since you cannot 'fix' range itself, your options are speed, which resulted in EVE falling over and the speed nerf, or tweaking weapon systems to span across that range. Projectiles, ac's and art, use falloff to span that range, which due to hit quality and base stats, is a joke compared to lasers and optimal, hence the boost to falloff.


There are different ways how to approach solutions for dealing with range. As I showed on graphs with Tachyons, trackig might be a way in this case.

Hit quality is negligable.
First off, you have to decide what you want from your AC. As it stands now, they are the best damage dealers at 17-22km range. What way do you think they need a boost and why?

I agree that balancing AC is a bit complicated since generaly fighting in falloff is compensated by high agility but that does not apply for battleships well.


Originally by: Secluse

Since you believe Range should be fixed, what is your solution knowing speed cannot be used, and these falloff changes not being acceptable? There is nothing left.


Speed cannot be used? What do you mean?

Caldor Mansi
Posted - 2009.10.29 14:26:00 - [1521]
 

Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Rose tinted glasses.


Do you actualy mind to explain it?

I really would like to know what sniping Tempest can do better than Mael.

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.10.29 14:31:00 - [1522]
 

Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 29/10/2009 14:31:46
Originally by: Caldor Mansi
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Rose tinted glasses.


Do you actualy mind to explain it?

I really would like to know what sniping Tempest can do better than Mael.

Bring back memories of a better time in which the Maelstrom didn't exist, and the Tempest could alpha cruisers.

Right now however, it's arguably cheaper, a little faster and a little more agile with scripted tracking computers being a PITA.

People tend to fly the Sniper Megathron instead of the Hyperion or Rokh for similar reasons.

Caldor Mansi
Posted - 2009.10.29 14:36:00 - [1523]
 

Originally by: Pattern Clarc

Bring back memories of a better time in which the Maelstrom didn't exist, and the Tempest could alpha cruisers.

Right now however, it's arguably cheaper, a little faster and a little more agile with scripted tracking computers being a PITA.

People tend to fly the Sniper Megathron instead of the Hyperion or Rokh for similar reasons.


Ok, I see one solved issue. The world is safe for today :-)

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.29 14:47:00 - [1524]
 

Edited by: Seriously Bored on 29/10/2009 14:54:03
Updated, projecting stats using Liang's sniper Mael fit (you folks can argue to death whether it's a good fit or not, I thought they were interesting, but I'm trying to highlight the differences between the latest proposal and the first one):

[Maelstrom, 160KM Mael]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

100MN MicroWarpdrive I
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Invulnerability Field II

1400mm Artillery Cannon II
1400mm Artillery Cannon II
1400mm Artillery Cannon II
1400mm Artillery Cannon II
1400mm Artillery Cannon II
1400mm Artillery Cannon II
1400mm Artillery Cannon II
1400mm Artillery Cannon II

Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I

Needs a +3% Grid implant, apparently. Damage/Range:

Tremor L: 371.1 DPS 152KM + 84.46KM 309 DPS@190KM, 238DPS@210KM, 184 DPS@225KM
RF EMP (new): 640 DPS 42KM + 84.46KM 410 DPS@100KM, 151 DPS@150KM
RF Carb Lead (new): 295 DPS 135KM + 84.46KM 291 DPS@150KM, 198 DPS@190KM

Tremor L: 309 DPS@190KM, 238DPS@210KM, 184 DPS@225KM
RF EMP (new): 410 DPS@100KM, 151 DPS@150KM
RF Carb Lead (new): 291 DPS@150KM, 198 DPS@190KM

NOTE: Damage is likely to be higher than listed. These numbers take the current reload of 1200mm into account, and the reload of 1400mm post patch will be a bit less than that.

Yankunytjatjara
Amarr
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2009.10.29 14:56:00 - [1525]
 

Originally by: Typhado3
Originally by: Yankunytjatjara
They already are [predominant].


umm minmatar are supposed to be the best at solo and great at small ships, if you look at the whole game you'll realise this. That kb is all about small ships and small engagmenets so minmatar doing well there shouldn't be a suprise at all. It would be like comparing ecm to TP it's part of racial balance. I'm also not saying there isn't an imbalance in the frigates, in fact I can think of at least a couple imabalances in the frigates off the top of my head

You also seem to be stretching a little too far "... various ACs end up being the top 6 or 7 weapons.", is this worded wrong or am I missunderstanding it or something. AC may be good but seriously not gonna happen like that.

Lastly about fitting AC's on amarr ships. tbh I'm not suprised, minmatar guns (AC in particular) are the easiest to fit on non-racial ships thx to fittings, no cap etc. Amarr can also benefit easily from this as they often only have cap bonus to guns so if another weapon system would work better than lasers in this situation it sorta makes sense to swap. Not something I'm particularly fond of either this whole idea of giving minmatar bs's the role of alpha strike still kinda has the problem that any race can fit arty and do the same alpha, and often pull off better tank than the mael.


1) If you add red and blue stats you end up with 6 ACs in the top 10 or 15 weapons, 150IIs being in the first place, at almost double the kills of the second comer.

2) small ships: yes, I am concerned and have some experience with that only. The problem is probably clouded at the BS level because of the lack of non damage bonused ships, but maybe an AC rokh could show up and be better than a blaster rokh.
Small engagements: well, when you have small ships, engagements get smaller; you'll never see fleets of 200 frigates. 20 frigs/dessies/cruisers is a medium - large fleet at this scale. In rvb we've had many of these and some larger ones: so, it's meaningful for engagements of any size when we're talking about small ships. Also don't forget that red's got enough kills in 3 weeks to get into the top 200 of all times. The statistic is recent, large, and quite meaningful.

3) ACs on non-minnie (not just amarr): this is exactly what I'm talking about. I already find ACs on puni, merlin; maller, moa; prophecy, myrmi, ferox.
I already fit fusion when I undock. And it's not a matter of ships balance: it's a matter of weapons, as ACs are already better than any other weapon on a lot of ships, irrelevant of race, when we speak about small and medium guns (frig/cruiser/BC), if not damage bonused.

Minmatar are great at small ships, you say. I agree, that's why I'm training them. The question that I raise is: why the heck are the devs making them even better? If the problem was at BS level why do they need to touch everything? Is the vaga bad? Is the rifter bad? Is the ruppie bad? Is the hurricane bad? Is the thrasher bad?

...These ships are already borderline FOTM at small scale... What do you think is going to happen?

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.10.29 15:07:00 - [1526]
 

Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 29/10/2009 15:16:05
I think people are expecting those ships to be *rebalanced* now that AC's are how they always wanted them to be.

Idealism has been the driving force behind a lot of the discussion really. It's funny, the people who want radical wide sweeping changes too all tiers of weapons are often against radical changes to failing ships. I await to see how these changes present themselves on Sisi. (when ever there implemented)

Caldor Mansi
Posted - 2009.10.29 15:14:00 - [1527]
 

Originally by: Yankunytjatjara
The question that I raise is: why the heck are the devs making them even better?


Because Nozh is not a person at the right place.

He did the same with speeds. Instead of fixing pimp fits, he messed up everything.

Disclaimer: If Nozh is supposed to be a spokeman for the balancing team only and is actualy against the curret projectile changes as well as he was against speed rebalancing, I am sorry for all my accusations of lacking the competence and clue. Also, I feel sorry for him if that is the case.

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.10.29 15:24:00 - [1528]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
Edited by: Gypsio III on 29/10/2009 13:19:23

BTW, after we boost projectiles, then boost hybrids, I'll be starting some "boost missiles" whinethreads. Razz

Or you could just tweak laser tracking a bit, alter some projectile stuff a bit and fix T2 ammo (including Scorch). It would be a lot simpler and avoid this horrible power creep.


No you are wrong.

Before any of the boosts. A maesltrom with 8 neutron II was better than a maelstrom with 8 800mm. Projectiles needed a BOOST no matter what you coudl do upon scorch!

Projectiles were pathetic whenc omapred to pulses, blasters, rails, beams and missiles.

Why in hell you think 98% of typhoons had torpedo launchers but very very very few cared to use AC?


Balancing a game is not same thing as balancing 2 weights. There is more than transitivity and equality. There is the concept of having a role, being fun to use and enrich the game.


The choosen patch by CCP is the only correct one!

Caroline Nikon
Posted - 2009.10.29 15:34:00 - [1529]
 

Originally by: Caldor Mansi
Edited by: Caldor Mansi on 29/10/2009 13:35:12
Originally by: Secluse

Sorry, but turrets are not even close to being balanced. The combination of the laser tracking boost, EM resist nerf, speed nerf, has resulted in range being king, and lasers being dominant. Either you re-address those changes, or you need to fix what lags behind.

The real 'issue' is the tracking formula since EvE is directionless. Because of the fact that orbiting a ship results in you out-tracking yourself drastically reduces the benefit of speed today. I agree that there are many ways of fixing this problem, but CCP is headed down this road so I'll use the tools available to me.

In other words, don't tell us that the issue isn't related to guns, tell CCP, we're working with what we get.


Yes, the RANGE is the king, not lasers. They are not OP, it is just there is a sever lack of mechanics that would work towards ranges. THAT is the issue. Nerfing pulses because of this is as bad as boosting projectiles or hybrids because of exact same reasons.

The problem is, if you accept the way CCP is doing the changes, they won't change the way they do it. I understand that this might be a choice of lesser evil but I am not satisfied with that.


The basic flaw in current process is that no one is asking a fundamental question: What do you want to achieve with the changes?

Nozh or people here are randomly throwing the ideas like ammo changes, falloff, tracking boost or laser nerf but no single word about how are projectiles and turrets in general are supposed to look like and how proposed changes are helping it.


no ideas are random here. People have been implementing huge threads for MONTHS with much deeper annalysis than anything you ever saw on ANY subject on this game. Anyone paying attention could see that.And all those ideas were created and supported by deep annalysis on alternatives to bring balance.

CCP has been doing an EXCELENT work! They re stablished a clear role and engagement envelope for projectiles. NErfign lasers woudl be stupid since would reduce game flavor.

Speed changes changed completely game. Roles changed due to that. Each weapon system must be rebalanced against this new eve semantics, not solely one against the other. That is why NERF pulse not boost projectiles is a narrow and stupid view of things. ALL weapon system need rebalancing after the nano age. Projectiles were the most obfuscated ones, that is why they needed to be first. But all of them need to be revisited. ALL of them! On an iterative progressive work of game balance.

To mare
Amarr
Advanced Technology
Posted - 2009.10.29 15:34:00 - [1530]
 

Originally by: Seishi Maru
Originally by: Gypsio III
Edited by: Gypsio III on 29/10/2009 13:19:23

BTW, after we boost projectiles, then boost hybrids, I'll be starting some "boost missiles" whinethreads. Razz

Or you could just tweak laser tracking a bit, alter some projectile stuff a bit and fix T2 ammo (including Scorch). It would be a lot simpler and avoid this horrible power creep.


No you are wrong.

Before any of the boosts. A maesltrom with 8 neutron II was better than a maelstrom with 8 800mm. Projectiles needed a BOOST no matter what you coudl do upon scorch!

Projectiles were pathetic whenc omapred to pulses, blasters, rails, beams and missiles.

Why in hell you think 98% of typhoons had torpedo launchers but very very very few cared to use AC?


Balancing a game is not same thing as balancing 2 weights. There is more than transitivity and equality. There is the concept of having a role, being fun to use and enrich the game.


The choosen patch by CCP is the only correct one!


/this


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