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Helen Zilwicki
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2009.09.23 18:33:00 - [61]
 

rck, thanks!

SSgt Sniper2
The Firm.
Posted - 2009.09.23 18:37:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: SSgt Sniper2 on 23/09/2009 18:37:34
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Lumy
While you're at it, could you reorder ammo a bit? Imho the best order would be: Fusion, Phased plasma, EMP, Titanium sabot, Nuclear, Proton, Depleted uranium, Carbonized lead. The point is to have racial damage ammunition types as most damaging, best tracking and longest range ones. Than have mixed damage ammo sprinkled in between.



This interests me. We took a look at the over all damage type distribution, and it could do with some tweaking. How do people feel about the damage types the ammo is dishing out now?





Me personally, I'd like to see Phased plasma as the high damage ammo, but I know better.

What I'd suggest is fit the damage types more in with the rp. Because having two high damage ammos in two different races being EM is bleh, and because RP amarr resist explosive so why isn't our default high damage explosive to be in line with this.

But I'd still like phased plasma to be the high damage ammo. Hey, I'm allowed to dream, you people stop staring at me. STOP IT!

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2009.09.23 18:45:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 23/09/2009 18:55:59
Originally by: Josh Silver
If Projectiles (esp Autocannons) are so terrible, why are the Vagabond/Sleipnir etc by FAR the most popular small gang and solo ships?

I agree there is a problem with Battleship sized projectiles (and the Minmatar hull offerings in that class) and Blasters, but you have to be careful not to buff the small/med Minmatar ships even more.


Well the Vaga is popular because it has great GTFO ability and gets fall of bonuses. Essentially the Vaga is a package in which AC's happen to preform well so it's popular.

edit.. forgot to mention that the Sleipnir also gets the much needed falloff bonus.

HA3APUK
Posted - 2009.09.23 18:53:00 - [64]
 

When your eyes and heads will see and start to think something about missiles, torpedoes? This kind of weaponry has the smallest effect at pvp right now, but we all remember good times, when it was very fun to use launchers in pvp, cause they did the job. but now... i even start to think that even in missions or for hunt is better to use lasers or hybrids.... NO respect to launchers... may be you will simply put them in to museum? or delete from the server? ugh

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.09.23 19:04:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Mutnin
Edited by: Mutnin on 23/09/2009 18:55:59
Originally by: Josh Silver
If Projectiles (esp Autocannons) are so terrible, why are the Vagabond/Sleipnir etc by FAR the most popular small gang and solo ships?

I agree there is a problem with Battleship sized projectiles (and the Minmatar hull offerings in that class) and Blasters, but you have to be careful not to buff the small/med Minmatar ships even more.


Well the Vaga is popular because it has great GTFO ability and gets fall of bonuses. Essentially the Vaga is a package in which AC's happen to preform well so it's popular.

edit.. forgot to mention that the Sleipnir also gets the much needed falloff bonus.


Vaga is NOT the most popular small gang ships. Its by FAAAAR the zealot.

Egorik O
Posted - 2009.09.23 19:23:00 - [66]
 

<<In our first iteration of these changes we've increased the damage modifier by 50%, along with the rate of fire. The DPS stays in place, but the volley damage is increased significantly.>>

Wow! Just to please few whining criples you gonna screw up all your loyal carebears. Artis become almost useless for PVE due severe overkill small and med NPC. One nerf at the time. We already got tax.

<< projectile ammo is reduced in size. We don't like this, so we're looking at changing it to a tracking bonus.>>

Is it possible to trade tracking bonus for "alfa" bonus for long range ammo? So rof and damage mod for EMP remains same. But nuclears get bonused with big damage mode and big rof.

Chssmius
legio immortalorum
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.23 19:24:00 - [67]
 

This announcement makes me very happy that I started training the minnie line back in January. I can now fly anything Minmatar except the T2 BC and BS. ^_^

Originally by: Ulstan
It's nice to see projectiles being looked at, especially large projectiles. Standardizing ammo sizes is a good move.

I agree.

Originally by: Ulstan

I don't know that small projectiles need any 'extra love' at all. They're already considered so good that ships like the punisher will fit them instead of using lasers. They beat out rockets on rocket bonused ships, for less fitting.

To be fair, this is more telling of rockets than of small projectiles. But I do think the fittings for small arties need some looking into, for that matter I think all arties need their fitting requirements scaled back.

Originally by: Ulstan

Moreover, boosting the alpha of the thrasher by 50% will move it from being "The best of the destroyers" to "You would be absolutely stupid to fly any other destroyer" territory.

I am a little concerned about this as well. I have a special place in my heart for Frigates, especially my beloved interceptors.

---------

In regards to the oft criticized Minmatar battleship line. I propose that the 5% large projectile ROF per level bonus on all Minmatar battleships have be changed to about 7.5%(10% would be too much). This should bring the Minmatar battleships bonuses more in line with those of the other races.

Finally, artillery(S, M, and L) are the only turrets(except for small beams?) with just two fitting tiers.

Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
Posted - 2009.09.23 19:35:00 - [68]
 

Ouch where to begin...

Firstly, reducing the damage of the long range ammunition is a bad thing, as it is, taking into account the optimal range of both artillery and autocannons, they are the worst for optimal range of turret systems and so the range bonus is a inadequate, thats why the extra damage is a must, they may be tech1 but that's the whole point. Cheap introductory ammunition for early play. Its no secret that the damage mutipliers of projectile weapons are far less than lasers and hybrids, so don't compound the problem with reduced damage, increase the close range sure but don't decrease long range.

Another issue is that both blasters and pulse lasers get a far greater benefit from +optimal ammunition than autocannons. There needs to be a +falloff ammunition for tech1. I always suggest Depleted Uranium, the description for depleted uranium states "Very commonly used by Minmatar pilots", lets make that a reality, give is a falloff bonus for the tech1 autocannons or those pilots who want a little flavour in their tech2 ac's.

Reordering the ammunition to put fusion as the greatest damage type in theory sounds good, but if you considder the tech2 ammunition, then we are really only reducing our high damage options to pure Explosive + Kinetic. The concept is logical for fusion to be the top dog of t1 but its not wise to do.

Tracking Computers, Enhancers, Links need a falloff bonus.


Keeping the same damage for Artillery but reducing the rof by such a huge ammount and increasing the damage multiplier to compensate to me is a BAD BAD BAD bloody BAD thing. It doesn't solve anything, if anything it will make things worse, now if you get a bad shot, you will wait that so much longer. Not only that but in fleet fights you will probably only get to shoot at every second or third primary.


Increasing the capacity for ammunition is ok but give us chain linking. Its only logical, Minmatar would have developed a continuous firing mechanism when fighting the Amarr. They would not have accepted a reload while still taking hits from their enemy.

A tracking bonus to the mid damage ammo is a nice idea, Still perhaps lacking something, not too sure what but its still a good thing.


I will remind you that the deficiencies of projectile weapons only lye partially to do with the ammunition and more needs to be done. Fighting in falloff is not optimal (pun intended).

Chssmius
legio immortalorum
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.23 19:35:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Egorik O
<<In our first iteration of these changes we've increased the damage modifier by 50%, along with the rate of fire. The DPS stays in place, but the volley damage is increased significantly.>>

Wow! Just to please few whining criples you gonna screw up all your loyal carebears. Artis become almost useless for PVE due severe overkill small and med NPC. One nerf at the time. We already got tax.

<< projectile ammo is reduced in size. We don't like this, so we're looking at changing it to a tracking bonus.>>

Is it possible to trade tracking bonus for "alfa" bonus for long range ammo? So rof and damage mod for EMP remains same. But nuclears get bonused with big damage mode and big rof.


Your PvE concerns are valid. Arties, especially large arties, kind of suck for it right now with a handful of exceptions. But I think adding an extra fitting tier to all artillery and differentiating the fitting tiers with different alpha/rof ratios, along with ammo that allows ACTUAL damage choice, would largely mollify your concerns.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.09.23 19:37:00 - [70]
 

A great work from CCP. Basically they listened to what people asked (and basically did exaclty the things I proposed a lot of times :P )

On the trasher issue. If it becomes a problem, then CCP can just change its damage bonus into a rof bonus and increase the role ROF penalty to keep same DPS and make the alpha increase only 25%.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.09.23 19:43:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Egorik O
Wow! Just to please few whining criples you gonna screw up all your loyal carebears. Artis become almost useless for PVE due severe overkill small and med NPC. One nerf at the time. We already got tax.


I would at this point like to point out some mitigating factors:
1. Sufficiently large alpha can mean an increase in overall DPS.
I will assume 3000 HP damage and a 10 sec ROF (base) for these situations. Consider:
- Rat has 8000 EHP. We now require 3 volleys to kill it (30 sec). Add 50% to alpha/duration and we see 2 volleys and still 30 seconds to kill it. Net effect: None. Possibly increases the viability of faction ammo.
- Rat has 500 EHP. We now kill it in < 1 volley. Buff alpha by 50% -> we still kill it in < 1 volley. If you've got your turrets split into more than one group, this is unlikely to affect you in a large way.
- Rat has 3500 EHP. We now kill it in 2 volleys (20 sec). Boost alpha by 50% -> we kill it in one volley (15 sec). DPS increase.
2. Lower ammo use allows better use of faction ammo - which is a very painful point when using ACs!

I would also like to point out that *you* are now the "whining cripple" because you feel that it affects your PVE game (it's true, it does). But Eve is a PVP game, and the "legions" of loyal PVPers have been getting royally screwed for a few years, and it'd be nice to be competitive and retain some Minmatar flavor. This allows that.

Quote:
Is it possible to trade tracking bonus for "alfa" bonus for long range ammo? So rof and damage mod for EMP remains same. But nuclears get bonused with big damage mode and big rof.


While it would be neat if T1 ammo had a +ROF, -alpha attribute but leaving the same DPS, I feel that this would be a good thing that could be done with rigs.

Consider:
Hybrid rigs: +DPS/-Range, +Range/-Tracking, etc
Projectile rigs: +ROF/-Alpha, +Alpha/-ROF, +Optimal/-Falloff, etc
Laser rigs: +Optimal/-Tracking, +Damage/-Optimal, etc
Drone rigs: +Drone Bandwidth/-Drone Bay, +Drone Damage/-Drone Bay, etc

I would not suggest removing the current rigs - but I would like to see some good variety in rigs.

-Liang

Perry
Amarr
The X-Trading Company
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.23 19:43:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Egorik O


Wow! Just to please few whining criples you gonna screw up all your loyal carebears. Artis become almost useless for PVE due severe overkill small and med NPC. One nerf at the time. We already got tax.


Last time i checked, Battleships could target and shoot more then one target at once. But i understand that extended PvE activities lower the will to actually care :p

Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.09.23 19:52:00 - [73]
 

these are some alright changes overall but minmatar battleships, and especially large artillery, need a much deeper look than that.

Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group
Posted - 2009.09.23 19:56:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Chssmius
Originally by: Egorik O
<<In our first iteration of these changes we've increased the damage modifier by 50%, along with the rate of fire. The DPS stays in place, but the volley damage is increased significantly.>>

Wow! Just to please few whining criples you gonna screw up all your loyal carebears. Artis become almost useless for PVE due severe overkill small and med NPC. One nerf at the time. We already got tax.

<< projectile ammo is reduced in size. We don't like this, so we're looking at changing it to a tracking bonus.>>

Is it possible to trade tracking bonus for "alfa" bonus for long range ammo? So rof and damage mod for EMP remains same. But nuclears get bonused with big damage mode and big rof.


Your PvE concerns are valid. Arties, especially large arties, kind of suck for it right now with a handful of exceptions. But I think adding an extra fitting tier to all artillery and differentiating the fitting tiers with different alpha/rof ratios, along with ammo that allows ACTUAL damage choice, would largely mollify your concerns.


Those times I mission in highsec, 1200s have seemed to work the best while still having good range. Like the earlier proposal for scaling autos by greater size/more falloff, the alpha/ROF change maybe should be scaled down for 1200s, making mission runners less effected by the changes. Just a thought.

I am a very happy minny atm!!

Thank you for finally working on minmater duct-tape and half-assery! I've stuck with it, refused to give ground, and never held my nose to train amarr, and perhaps now it will pay off :)

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2009.09.23 19:57:00 - [75]
 

Lovely changes.

Regarding the ammo...

The damage distribution as it stands is fairly decent. It does improve the Minmatar pilot who knows what to use vs what target, since the ability to pick ammo types can be useful in certain environments. From the viewpoint of someone who flies medium/small sized ships a lot:

- EMP has a passable damage distribution, if a bit unfocused. As it stands it is the correct ammo to fire on many T2 ships (Caldari T2 ships, Gallente T2 ships provided they fit a explosive hardener) as well as a decent choice vs shield tanks (where PP M also works because it's more thermal focused; really depends on the target).

- Fusion is explosive; but if you can do it (and often you can), Hail is a better choice. I end up using RF Fusion in arty fits however, where the bit of extra range over EMP and the damage being more interesting vs T1 armour/Minmatar T2 makes it a solid choice now. Sometimes worth carrying in frigate hulls due to Hail not working very well these days with the webs being fairly weak and frigates using ABs so often.

- PP M is also a good ammo in certain cases; most notable being shooting at Amarr T2 & shooting at shield tanks in general (where it's roughly tied with EMP, depending on the fits/etc). Worth carrying in a AC ship.

Add to these Hail (very very situational) and Barrage, and Minmatar as it stands have 5 reasonably useful ammo types.

I don't particularly care whether Fusion takes over from EMP as the top damage dealer; but I would really like that to be tempered with by a slight change to EMP shifting it more to EM damage and less to Explosive, or EMP starts to lose its usefulness.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.09.23 20:06:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Egorik O
<<In our first iteration of these changes we've increased the damage modifier by 50%, along with the rate of fire. The DPS stays in place, but the volley damage is increased significantly.>>

Wow! Just to please few whining criples you gonna screw up all your loyal carebears. Artis become almost useless for PVE due severe overkill small and med NPC. One nerf at the time. We already got tax.

<< projectile ammo is reduced in size. We don't like this, so we're looking at changing it to a tracking bonus.>>

Is it possible to trade tracking bonus for "alfa" bonus for long range ammo? So rof and damage mod for EMP remains same. But nuclears get bonused with big damage mode and big rof.


There is no such thing as wasting damage against mid sized targets. Just do not use groups.... and 1 artie will NOT kill a cruiser NPC in 1 shot.

Alpha strike in fact increases the effectiveness of the killing since it disallow time for the NPC to repair. Also there is the basica increase in DPS from not reloading so often.

Chssmius
legio immortalorum
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.23 20:10:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Nian Banks
...
Keeping the same damage for Artillery but reducing the rof by such a huge ammount and increasing the damage multiplier to compensate to me is a BAD BAD BAD bloody BAD thing. It doesn't solve anything, if anything it will make things worse, now if you get a bad shot, you will wait that so much longer. Not only that but in fleet fights you will probably only get to shoot at every second or third primary.
...



This is my only real concern. 1400s currently cycle at more than 17 seconds with perfect skills(ignoring ship bonuses, modules and rigs). A 50% increase to cycle time will mean 25 seconds of impotency in a fight! That is a HUGE amount of time in a fight, even at battleship scales and speeds.

Currently it is at ~10 seconds for a triple gyro Minmatar BS(5% rof bonus per minnie BS level for the whole line) with perfect skills is barely tolerable as it is. A 25% alpha bonus and 25% ROF penalty would be more manageable. Arties would still be the alpha strike monsters. This along with other changes to the Minmatar battleships(that rof bonus tweak I mentioned!) and adding a third fitting tier to all artillery, might make for a better solution while restoring some of that flavor.

Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.09.23 20:26:00 - [78]
 

Will be barrage damage reduced?

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.09.23 20:29:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Kagura Nikon on 23/09/2009 20:31:07
Originally by: Chssmius
Originally by: Nian Banks
...
Keeping the same damage for Artillery but reducing the rof by such a huge ammount and increasing the damage multiplier to compensate to me is a BAD BAD BAD bloody BAD thing. It doesn't solve anything, if anything it will make things worse, now if you get a bad shot, you will wait that so much longer. Not only that but in fleet fights you will probably only get to shoot at every second or third primary.
...



This is my only real concern. 1400s currently cycle at more than 17 seconds with perfect skills(ignoring ship bonuses, modules and rigs). A 50% increase to cycle time will mean 25 seconds of impotency in a fight! That is a HUGE amount of time in a fight, even at battleship scales and speeds.

Currently it is at ~10 seconds for a triple gyro Minmatar BS(5% rof bonus per minnie BS level for the whole line) with perfect skills is barely tolerable as it is. A 25% alpha bonus and 25% ROF penalty would be more manageable. Arties would still be the alpha strike monsters. This along with other changes to the Minmatar battleships(that rof bonus tweak I mentioned!) and adding a third fitting tier to all artillery, might make for a better solution while restoring some of that flavor.


That is NOT a problem! Its only a HUGE improvement!


Its only a psicological effect. Because at same time if you have a GOOD hit you maximized your efficiency for the same huge ammount of time. A wrecking hit is much more valuable on same ammount that a miss. If you have such large problem with misses, just use smaller groups for the guns. Its very unlikely that you will miss 3-4 shots completely if you are in any reasonable engagement envelope. Current REAL cycle is around 9.5 seconds.. Want to fire more freequently.. separate your guns in 2 groups...

At the averaged results after some fights the miss/hit counterbalance each others...

With this new setup will be worthwhile to try things on medium sized groups of tempest for example. Like 5-6 ships warp in lock fire warp to other sniper spot while gun cycles...

That will add MORE flavor and engagement options to the game. Any other change would just move arties on to SAME THING AS RAILS.. and that would be sad...

Ulstan
Posted - 2009.09.23 20:40:00 - [80]
 

My other wishes for Minmatar BS are to make the standard typhoon 5/5, and to make the CPU requirement of shield transporters less absurd, so that shield tanking BS can actually fit and use them.

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.09.23 20:43:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Schmell
Will be barrage damage reduced?


Why would it? It ALREADY has the same exact damage than the T2 variants of other races. If anything it should have its falloff bonus increased to 75%.

ZigZag Joe
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2009.09.23 20:48:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: ZigZag Joe on 23/09/2009 20:50:28
Most necessary:
Give projectile ammo missing 4 damage across the board.
Increase RoF of arties and increase damage (net dps boost and a bit more alpha - 50% damage mod increase, increase RoF by 33% [multiply rof by 1.33])

Others of interest:
25% falloff boost for all projectile weapons (base 220mm falloff w/ barrage changed to 17km or so - or, give traj analysis 5% more per level)
Reduce TE optimal bonus to 10% and give a 7.5% falloff bonus
Add a TC falloff script
Reduce all t2 shortrange ammo tracking penalties.
Possible tracking changes.
Make t1 ammo affect falloff. So t1 autocannons aren't completely useless. (depleted uranium being roughly equal to barrage range bonus. emp has none, carb lead has a lot)

Belt-feed
read: guns fire until no ammo left. 10s to change ammo types, per usual. Also, reduce strain on cargo holds somewhat. It's annoying to have to leave space so you don't get "there isn't enough room to move the charges currently in the projectile weapon..." and it ends up being about 500-600 ammo short. Maybe this is avoided by grouping guns, but I usually don't group them because seeing them all fire at once is sorta...well, boring. Hail of lead is better. Make things a bit more interesting overall (less homogenization)

Other minnie stuff that needs to be looked at by devs:

HUGGIN. GRID. PLZ. Also, maybe increased bonuses for weapons?
Bellicose not being useless
Cyclone could use some cpu.
extra turret/launcher on phoon might be nice
Wolf/Jag bonuses
Make web not useless on rapier/huggin/loki/the little frig thing
Scrambler changes vs. minnie t2 cruisers
Add 33% hp to drones (kali) and 20% drone hp per drone int level

Polinus
Caldari
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.09.23 20:51:00 - [83]
 

You are a bit exagerated in your dreams :P

Dwindlehop
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2009.09.23 20:55:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Dwindlehop on 23/09/2009 21:00:00
Please do not balance damage types around PvE or RP considerations.

I like the damage spread of EMP in ACs and always use EMP, PP, or T2 ammo in ACs today in PvP. I generally use Fusion and sometimes PP for artillery (rarely EMP or Tremor, never Quake).

If you add a tracking bonus to Fusion, boost the PP and EMP damage, and leave the damage types alone otherwise, ACs will have three excellent T1 choices of ammo (PP, EMP, Fusion). If Fusion doesn't get a tracking bonus I would probably carry the highest damage ammo with tracking bonus for ACs instead of Fusion. For artillery, I would have a use for EMP and PP again, and it would complement my Fusion or other tracking-bonused-ammo use (so again three great ammos).

If, instead, you switch EMP and Fusion and change the Fusion & PP damage to match other high damage ammos, then I believe I would always use only PP in ACs. The thermal damage and convenience win out over high damage Fusion or less damage EMP so I would not bother with either Fusion or EMP (leaving one useful ammo). For artillery, PP sometimes does not have sufficient range, so I would sometimes use EMP (two useful ammos).

If you nerf LR projectile ammo damage it is doubtful I will use it again, so the damage types are irrelevant, really.

Therefore, I think the current damage type distribution of Minmatar ammo is better for making all ammos relevant and useful than the proposed changes.

To reply to all the folks noting the large percentage EM damage on our highest damage ammo is "weird", I point you at Multifrequency, which has the highest Thermal of any crystal. It is perfectly normal to have lots of "off" damage type on your weapon's high damage ammo.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2009.09.23 20:58:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Egorik O
Wow! Just to please few whining criples you gonna screw up all your loyal carebears. Artis become almost useless for PVE due severe overkill small and med NPC. One nerf at the time. We already got tax.


I would at this point like to point out some mitigating factors:
1. Sufficiently large alpha can mean an increase in overall DPS.
I will assume 3000 HP damage and a 10 sec ROF (base) for these situations. Consider:
- Rat has 8000 EHP. We now require 3 volleys to kill it (30 sec). Add 50% to alpha/duration and we see 2 volleys and still 30 seconds to kill it. Net effect: None. Possibly increases the viability of faction ammo.
- Rat has 500 EHP. We now kill it in < 1 volley. Buff alpha by 50% -> we still kill it in < 1 volley. If you've got your turrets split into more than one group, this is unlikely to affect you in a large way.
- Rat has 3500 EHP. We now kill it in 2 volleys (20 sec). Boost alpha by 50% -> we kill it in one volley (15 sec). DPS increase.
2. Lower ammo use allows better use of faction ammo - which is a very painful point when using ACs!

I would also like to point out that *you* are now the "whining cripple" because you feel that it affects your PVE game (it's true, it does). But Eve is a PVP game, and the "legions" of loyal PVPers have been getting royally screwed for a few years, and it'd be nice to be competitive and retain some Minmatar flavor. This allows that.

Quote:
Is it possible to trade tracking bonus for "alfa" bonus for long range ammo? So rof and damage mod for EMP remains same. But nuclears get bonused with big damage mode and big rof.


While it would be neat if T1 ammo had a +ROF, -alpha attribute but leaving the same DPS, I feel that this would be a good thing that could be done with rigs.

Consider:
Hybrid rigs: +DPS/-Range, +Range/-Tracking, etc
Projectile rigs: +ROF/-Alpha, +Alpha/-ROF, +Optimal/-Falloff, etc
Laser rigs: +Optimal/-Tracking, +Damage/-Optimal, etc
Drone rigs: +Drone Bandwidth/-Drone Bay, +Drone Damage/-Drone Bay, etc

I would not suggest removing the current rigs - but I would like to see some good variety in rigs.

-Liang


think is the first time we disagree :P


true i can kill a rat with no hps faster... but how about the rat that, by the time i'm ready to fire the next volley is orbiting around me?

in eve alpha just doesnt work, there is not enought difference between the alpha of various weapons, the hps of various ships of same class are too high to 1 volley them (and this is a good thing :P) we cant "focus dmg" as in other games (mechwarrior?) where you could dmg and gimp an opponent whitout destroying it... to summarize there is nothing that makes high alpha so worth to be a balancing factor over dps (and even worse over dps/tracking/range)

think we alredy did the example of the high alpha fleet vs high dps fleet and we know how it ends...

to have ammos with different alpha/rof ratio but same dps will be pointless... at same dps value alpha ammo will be more benefical making other low alpha ones kinda obsolete

Rayokashi
Posted - 2009.09.23 20:58:00 - [86]
 

Thank you!

+ increasing artillery alpha brings back racial flavor
+ tracking computers and falloff scripts, only logical to add them
+ ammo changes

Other issues
- overall DPS and range with large projectiles is pathetic
- give a look at Tempest
- trajectory analysis bonus upto 7,5% per skill level

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.09.23 21:10:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Egorik O
Wow! Just to please few whining criples you gonna screw up all your loyal carebears. Artis become almost useless for PVE due severe overkill small and med NPC. One nerf at the time. We already got tax.


I would at this point like to point out some mitigating factors:
1. Sufficiently large alpha can mean an increase in overall DPS.
I will assume 3000 HP damage and a 10 sec ROF (base) for these situations. Consider:
- Rat has 8000 EHP. We now require 3 volleys to kill it (30 sec). Add 50% to alpha/duration and we see 2 volleys and still 30 seconds to kill it. Net effect: None. Possibly increases the viability of faction ammo.
- Rat has 500 EHP. We now kill it in < 1 volley. Buff alpha by 50% -> we still kill it in < 1 volley. If you've got your turrets split into more than one group, this is unlikely to affect you in a large way.
- Rat has 3500 EHP. We now kill it in 2 volleys (20 sec). Boost alpha by 50% -> we kill it in one volley (15 sec). DPS increase.
2. Lower ammo use allows better use of faction ammo - which is a very painful point when using ACs!

I would also like to point out that *you* are now the "whining cripple" because you feel that it affects your PVE game (it's true, it does). But Eve is a PVP game, and the "legions" of loyal PVPers have been getting royally screwed for a few years, and it'd be nice to be competitive and retain some Minmatar flavor. This allows that.

Quote:
Is it possible to trade tracking bonus for "alfa" bonus for long range ammo? So rof and damage mod for EMP remains same. But nuclears get bonused with big damage mode and big rof.


While it would be neat if T1 ammo had a +ROF, -alpha attribute but leaving the same DPS, I feel that this would be a good thing that could be done with rigs.

Consider:
Hybrid rigs: +DPS/-Range, +Range/-Tracking, etc
Projectile rigs: +ROF/-Alpha, +Alpha/-ROF, +Optimal/-Falloff, etc
Laser rigs: +Optimal/-Tracking, +Damage/-Optimal, etc
Drone rigs: +Drone Bandwidth/-Drone Bay, +Drone Damage/-Drone Bay, etc

I would not suggest removing the current rigs - but I would like to see some good variety in rigs.

-Liang


think is the first time we disagree :P


true i can kill a rat with no hps faster... but how about the rat that, by the time i'm ready to fire the next volley is orbiting around me?

in eve alpha just doesnt work, there is not enought difference between the alpha of various weapons, the hps of various ships of same class are too high to 1 volley them (and this is a good thing :P) we cant "focus dmg" as in other games (mechwarrior?) where you could dmg and gimp an opponent whitout destroying it... to summarize there is nothing that makes high alpha so worth to be a balancing factor over dps (and even worse over dps/tracking/range)

think we alredy did the example of the high alpha fleet vs high dps fleet and we know how it ends...

to have ammos with different alpha/rof ratio but same dps will be pointless... at same dps value alpha ammo will be more benefical making other low alpha ones kinda obsolete


in fact when we did that simmulation the real conclusion was that alpha strike gives an advantage on a NARROW window of fleet size. And to be really useful that window woudl need to be extended.. WAIT.. that is exaclty what they are doing increasing the alpha by 50% you DOUBLE the size of that window.

Alpha strike is NOT irrelevant. Its just much less powerful on large fleet sizes.

Rek Esket
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.09.23 21:20:00 - [88]
 

The proposed changes look really good.

If you're willing to add some degree of percental falloff->optimal bonus to target painters, giving the Minmatar racial ewar gimmick both purpose and extremely good synergy with their racial gun type, the two main Minmatar problems will be 'solved'.

Ryas Nia
Minmatar
Veto.
Posted - 2009.09.23 21:42:00 - [89]
 

I am in Iceland for another 2 weeks so feel free to give me a call, CCP Charlie has my number. I fly nothing but minmatar so yeah might have some perspective. CCP Claw also knows how to get in touch with me :P

otherwise your heading in the right direction there is still more we can do, such as not adjusting medium/small projectiles too much we wouldn't want to overpower small AC's

Dwindlehop
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2009.09.23 22:00:00 - [90]
 

Presumably Quake and Hail will also get boosted to make them better than RF EMP post-boost?


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