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Terra Mikael
Horizon Dynamics
Posted - 2009.09.23 01:39:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Terra Mikael on 28/09/2009 06:57:54


Edit: This thread originally advocated upgrading the T1 destroyer hulls, and latter suggested just going to a tech II hull with the changes. Either way, destroyers need the same type or protection afforded them that their frigate counterparts have - a Smaller sig radius and a boost in speed. Keep in mind that when the next patch goes through, we will see much tougher assault frigates, and destroyers may have a hard time covering their bases. No matter how these changes go through, they would be more then welcome, though tech one is definetly preferable to tech II, either will do.

(Original Post)

Destroyers suck. They fail at their role (except for the thrasher) and will go from being irrelevant to totally worthless once the AF boost goes through.

With stronger AF, the role destroyers should be filling is needed more than ever. They aren't up to the task, though.

Destroyer Synopsis:

->Low HP
->Huge Sig
->Low CPU/PG scares away new players (despite it being a ship most noobs could fly)
->Shorter life span than both frigates & cruisers (the 'why train for it?' factor)
->It's role is usurped and done better by either frigs, cruisers, and yes, even BC and BS
->Inflexible slotting doesn't allow much customization

How Can it be fixed?

->One Additional slot to all destroyers where their primary tank should be (but Coercer + 1 MID)
->15-20% power grid boost
->15-20% CPU boost
->Remove the -25% rof 'bonus'
->Increase their base speed by 20%
->Cut their signature radius by 20% (frigates-40, destroyers-70(instead of 80-100), cruisers 130)
->Increase their hit points by 50%, finally giving them more HP than T2 frigates (barely)


Whatever you may think about the destroyer class itself, it's important to realize that they will have a very difficult time once the next patch comes out.

To ignore the problem will likely marginalize destroyers even more then they already are, as the only counter to assault frigates will be drone ships, neuts, and assault frigates.

Making destroyers a viable combat class will go a long way to balance the growing swarms of assault frigates and will make them a mainstay of any balanced fleet.

-Thanks (^_^)/

Edit:for clarity

McFly
Peanut Factory
Posted - 2009.09.23 02:05:00 - [2]
 

Not sure on how to change them specifically but I support them being looked at including their T2 counterparts, the light dictor. Having the hitpoints of an AF and the signature of HAC is not a good combination considering anyone flying a light dictor is always the instant primary.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2009.09.23 02:28:00 - [3]
 

Destroyers are going to be rather worthless vs AFs if the proposed changes go as they are, yes.

I'd rather wait for the results of the whole AF thing to talk about their role, however. Definitely are ships which do need a look at, given there is only one of them which is really good - the Thrasher.

Terra Mikael
Horizon Dynamics
Posted - 2009.09.23 02:52:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Terra Mikael on 23/09/2009 04:48:53
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Destroyers are going to be rather worthless vs AFs if the proposed changes go as they are, yes.

I'd rather wait for the results of the whole AF thing to talk about their role, however. Definitely are ships which do need a look at, given there is only one of them which is really good - the Thrasher.



I don't see why we should wait. there's still more than enough time to balance things on Sisi before they come to TQ. We have over a month worth of testing left (maybe more?)

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.09.23 09:34:00 - [5]
 

afs getting 15% ab boost give t2 destoryers a 20% ab boost and a salvage and tractor rang eboost ( perhaps even specialised t3 ships)

Terra Mikael
Horizon Dynamics
Posted - 2009.09.23 11:06:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: HeliosGal
afs getting 15% ab boost give t2 destoryers a 20% ab boost and a salvage and tractor rang eboost ( perhaps even specialised t3 ships)


Maybe not another AB boost. If they were going that route I would recommend scaling the AB modules so that 1mns boost a higher percent than 10mn or 100mn.

Besides, the destroyers already have a range boost on most of the hulls, so catching a frigate isn't a prerogative.

A salvaging hull has been discussed for quite some time now, but is an entirely different thread naught.

Mortis Tyrathlion
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.09.23 11:17:00 - [7]
 

As someone who regularly flies destroyers, I would adore a change. Although undoubtedly underrated ships, they are in dire need of fixing. The RoF penalty is only conceivably needed for the Catalyst, which can hit 300 DPS as it stands with a gank fit, but the Cormorant and Thrasher can be easily outgunned by a Wolf or Harpy. Coercer has Retribution syndrome, only it's bigger, weaker and isn't brilliant damage-wise.

The tracking bonus does make Dessies things to be very wary of in frigates, but the fact remains that it is something with cruiser sig radius and frigate HP. Battlecruisers aren't battleship-size with cruiser HP and damage, so why should dessies? Sure a destroyer will tear apart any T1 frigate you care to name, but so do most things.

bassie12bf1
Posted - 2009.09.23 11:58:00 - [8]
 

I think there is a lack of variety in destroyers anyway.
Just 1 hull which got only a t1 and a t2 version.

Either have another t2 with a different role than the current t2 or at least another hull.

But some of these problems even affect destroyer rats.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2009.09.23 15:01:00 - [9]
 

Destroyers still get used because of their value in low end PVE, whereas AF don't. The new AB boost isn't really a long term fix though, it just brings their usage up a bit more for the sake of enabling new variety this expansion without adding new ships.

But both ships are **** for the same reason - that is, small ships can't rely on their small size alone to survive against bigger ships. They need pure speed, and even then its easy to die in the blink of an eye.

A real fix involves fixing the long-standing issues in the tracking formula and enabling more class-based warfare. Everything else you listed is pretty much a bandaid solution that fails to do anything in the long run.

BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2009.09.23 16:26:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Terra Mikael

Destroyer Synopsis:

->Low HP
->Huge Sig
->Low CPU/PG scares away new players (despite it being a ship most noobs could fly)
->Shorter life span than both frigates & cruisers (the 'why train for it?' factor)
->It's role is usurped and done better by either frigs, cruisers, and yes, even BC and BS
->Inflexible slotting doesn't allow much customization

How Can it be fixed?

->One Additional slot to all destroyers where their primary tank should be (but Coercer + 1 MID)
->15-20% power grid boost
->10-20% CPU boost
->Remove the -25% rof 'bonus'
->Increase their base speed by 20%
->Cut their signature radius by 20% (frigates-40, destroyers-70(instead of 80-100), cruisers 130)
->Increase their hit points by 50%, finally giving them more HP than T2 frigates (barely)






I like these suggestions. However perhaps make extra hp 10-25%, else frigs will be doomed, even t2..

As far as t2 dessie hulls are concerned, I really want to like interdictors, but there is simply no point flying them over an AF or cruiser except for the rather over-estimated usefulness of the bubble-blower.

Hell I can even compare a flycatcher with an AML caracal and the caracal wins...

Flycatcher reasons to fly
-Bubble
-Slightly bettter speed

Caracal reasons to fly
-better dps (even against frigs)
-MUCH cheaper
-less skill intensive to be useful
-better buffer
-ewar (painter) improves utility, even agaisnt BC hulls


Add insta-primary problem and the terrible fitting issues (even without fitting a bubble) and the interdictor simply isn't worth it.



Perry
Amarr
The X-Trading Company
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.23 17:01:00 - [11]
 

With the announced Artillery boost (+50% alpha) the Thrasher, formerly known as the worst destroyer, will be decent againt frigs.

Oh wait...

0racle
Galactic Rangers
Galactic-Rangers
Posted - 2009.09.23 18:15:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Terra Mikael
Edited by: Terra Mikael on 23/09/2009 05:10:49

(Condensed)

Destroyers suck. They fail at their role (except for the thrasher) and will go from being irrelevant to totally worthless once the AF boost goes through.

With stronger AF, the role destroyers should be filling is needed more than ever. They aren't up to the task, though.

Destroyer Synopsis:

->Low HP
->Huge Sig
->Low CPU/PG scares away new players (despite it being a ship most noobs could fly)
->Shorter life span than both frigates & cruisers (the 'why train for it?' factor)
->It's role is usurped and done better by either frigs, cruisers, and yes, even BC and BS
->Inflexible slotting doesn't allow much customization

How Can it be fixed?

->One Additional slot to all destroyers where their primary tank should be (but Coercer + 1 MID)
->15-20% power grid boost
->10-20% CPU boost
->Remove the -25% rof 'bonus'
->Increase their base speed by 20%
->Cut their signature radius by 20% (frigates-40, destroyers-70(instead of 80-100), cruisers 130)
->Increase their hit points by 50%, finally giving them more HP than T2 frigates (barely)


Whatever you may think about the destroyer class itself, it's important to realize that they will have a very difficult time once the next patch comes out.

To ignore the problem will likely marginalize destroyers even more then they already are, as the only counter to assault frigates will be drone ships, neuts, and assault frigates.

Making destroyers a viable combat class will go a long way to balance the growing swarms of assault frigates and will make them a mainstay of any balanced fleet.

-Thanks (^_^)/

Edit:for clarity


Imo the 50% extra HP would inbalance the Destroyers between the Interdictors, because as it is, Ships like the Heretic hasn't got much of a leg to stand on.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2009.09.23 18:50:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Perry
With the announced Artillery boost (+50% alpha) the Thrasher, formerly known as the worst destroyer, will be decent againt frigs.

Oh wait...

Yea. It will be severely overpowered as it is already the best around by a wide margin :D

Destroyers are actually damn fine ships and have decent balance between them and their frigate prey. 3.

Ignore the the EHP and fit them to maximize the benefit of the bonuses and they all become powerhouses in their own right - stupid high tracking/range with damage makes for sad faces in friggie land Smile
What they might benefit from is a bit more sensor resolution, but absolutely necessary.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2009.09.23 20:46:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 23/09/2009 20:46:28
Thrasher is perfectly fine on TQ as it is and is everything a destroyer should be, even though I occasionally wish for a extra slot (which it doesn't need that bad, since 3/2 is optimal out of all offered layouts). Everyone wanting to do more with destroyers then the Thrasher does on TQ as things are is being just silly, period.

With the new AF boost, of course, they will be objectively nerfed in comparison to where they're now (read: fine except for everyhing other then a Thrasher), but I thought we stopped caring about balance as soon as we land into T2 small hulls, because they're that cool or something.

Terra Mikael
Horizon Dynamics
Posted - 2009.09.24 09:41:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Perry
With the announced Artillery boost (+50% alpha) the Thrasher, formerly known as the worst destroyer, will be decent againt frigs.

Oh wait...


Linky please. If this is true then wowsers...
Thrasher is a great ship already, and really the only destroyer I would fly, Though I would really like to fly a coercer, but, you know...

The thing is, comparing any other destroyer to the thrasher is like comparing any other T1 frigate to a rifter - sure, same class, but a world of difference.

@DigitalC - interesting suggestions, but I honestly have nothing to add to fix the wider problem or even really understand what the wider problem is. I often fly small ships into situations where battleships will have a wack at me, and I've noticed much better survivability since quantum rise in all small t1 hulls except for destroyers. Though I honestly don't know how much more hardy they should all be.

Kremnican
Caldari
Kinetic Vector
Posted - 2009.09.24 10:20:00 - [16]
 

IMO being positioned between Frigs and Cruisers the signature of the destroyers is too high and thus the ability to survive drops down drastically

Andreya
Red Federation
Posted - 2009.09.24 11:16:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Terra Mikael

The thing is, comparing any other destroyer to the thrasher is like comparing any other T1 frigate to a rifter - sure, same class, but a world of difference.




then maybe we should look at the REAL problem here.
Make all destroyers as effective as a thrasher or more
AND
Make all T1 frigs as effective as the rifter or more!!!

doesn't this make alotta sense to anyone else?! Smile

Andreya
Red Federation
Posted - 2009.09.24 11:21:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: HeliosGal
afs getting 15% ab boost give t2 destoryers a 20% ab boost and a salvage and tractor rang eboost ( perhaps even specialised t3 ships)


no no my friend thats where you got it wrong, they should just made a NEW ship model and create a whole salvage ship in its own.. maybe even do a frig and a cruiser version.

waste embarrass our destroyers even more by putting tractors on it :S

Very HappyVery HappyVery Happy

Andreya
Red Federation
Posted - 2009.09.24 11:27:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: BiggestT


As far as t2 dessie hulls are concerned, I really want to like interdictors, but there is simply no point flying them over an AF or cruiser except for the rather over-estimated usefulness of the bubble-blower.




Ahmen my friend, Interdictors were the ONLY ships i focus trained for since my weeks of eve, since then i maxed out every skill applicable to them. i flew em for two years till they first got hit with that 25% speed nerf (before the global speed nerf) never flown them since that day YARRRR!! they still sit in my hangers as my battle trophies Evil or Very Mad

R.I.P. "My Little Pony MkII"
I miss thee

Andreya
Red Federation
Posted - 2009.09.24 11:39:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: McFly
Not sure on how to change them specifically but I support them being looked at including their T2 counterparts, the light dictor. Having the hitpoints of an AF and the signature of HAC is not a good combination considering anyone flying a light dictor is always the instant primary.


They should only be about 10% slower than their racial interceptors speed (so they can only catch a careless inty)

Change their sig rads starting in the 55-75 ranges.

they should still be able to be killed easily (if webbed),, but should have a much better chance of survival when speed tanking.

They should be all a least as effective as the sabre.

buff bubbles, a few patches in the last year or so reduced their effectiveness a bit (sorta)

A small boost to some of their cpu's and/or pg's

or maybe a nice role bonus, like the inty's awesome MWD sig bonus


Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.09.24 12:20:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Destroyers still get used because of their value in low end PVE, whereas AF don't. The new AB boost isn't really a long term fix though, it just brings their usage up a bit more for the sake of enabling new variety this expansion without adding new ships.

But both ships are **** for the same reason - that is, small ships can't rely on their small size alone to survive against bigger ships. They need pure speed, and even then its easy to die in the blink of an eye.

A real fix involves fixing the long-standing issues in the tracking formula and enabling more class-based warfare. Everything else you listed is pretty much a bandaid solution that fails to do anything in the long run.


A ship can survive on speed, tank and on range - the cormorant can alrdy snipe - if the other destroyers could hit 100+km too with non instakill dps theyd actually find a role in fleets to drive dictors etc away, for pilots that cant fly bs or hacs properly.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2009.09.24 14:48:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
A ship can survive on speed, tank and on range - the cormorant can alrdy snipe - if the other destroyers could hit 100+km too with non instakill dps theyd actually find a role in fleets to drive dictors etc away, for pilots that cant fly bs or hacs properly.


Skills and isk are only a deterrent in the short term, the real question is what the hell on earth would make you want to fly a Destroyer when you got something better?

Being able to snipe at 100km or so would make it seem more useful, but nobody is going to fly it because killing frigs/destroyers at range isn't exactly difficult for bigger ships. Some HACs can do it (and do it better) while staying relevant in other situations. So, unless its the best ship at that role it isn't going to change anything about how people fly.

The other problem is whether an anti-frig/support role in fleets is relevant anymore. Bubbles are a force multiplier, because one good pilot can do the job of twenty Interceptor pilots. Before Dictors, fleet compositions were more balanced. Now its just better to have as many people go BS/Capital as possible, and leave the support side to whoever is too lazy or cheap to get in one.

Grut
The Protei
Posted - 2009.09.24 16:26:00 - [23]
 

Destroyers got bodged in between frigs and cruisers when really no space exists.

A stabbers a better "destroyer" then a destroyer which about sums it up.

They need a proper role or to make people fly them you'll just end up buffing them until they take the place of something currently useful.

Good luck finding a role for them though, the only thing they really have going for them is being cheap.

Dictors are a different matter with bubbles being so uber that the ships can and are trash with the exception of sabre.

All in all the best role I can think of for a destroyer is the one currently filled by the AF so that ain't happening.

Sith LordX
Posted - 2009.09.24 16:47:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Sith LordX on 24/09/2009 16:50:36
Destroyers are made to counter T1 frigates not highly specialized T2 frigates ships like interceptors or af's or any T2 versions because all are superior to even most cruisers and are made to hold their own around most ship types long enough to make their role worth having.

It should be pretty clear why a 30mill isk af should be able to take out a 1mill isk destroyer like its nothing. The price difference and the skill needed to fly them compared to a destroyer is like trying to say you should be able to put a 3 day old character into a heavy assault ship. Noobs fly destroyers and a destroyers role is to get destroyed by T2 ships. If you seriously thought it was made to counter all frigates even T2 your in the wrong ship. ugh

Alex Medvedov
Minmatar
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2009.09.24 16:59:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Terra Mikael
Edited by: Terra Mikael on 23/09/2009 05:10:49

(Condensed)

Destroyers suck. They fail at their role (except for the thrasher) and will go from being irrelevant to totally worthless once the AF boost goes through.

With stronger AF, the role destroyers should be filling is needed more than ever. They aren't up to the task, though.


Destroyers as they are now are completly fine. 10 mil worth Thrasher or Cormorant can vaporize 50+ mil AF in a few seconds. Catalist is able to do so not so effeciently but still ok. Serious problems against frigates might have only a Coercer due to his only med slot. I dont know how things will be doing after the AF speed boost but I belive Destroyers will still be able to track them because of their tracking bonus - but i might be wrong.
Keep in mind that destroyer is bastard child between frigate and cruiser. They should be able to kill frigs easily (and they are more than capable to do that now), but they can be able to endanger bigger ships; becuase if you allow them to do so we dont need afs anymore...

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2009.09.24 17:12:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Sith LordX
Destroyers are made to counter T1 frigates not highly specialized T2 frigates ships like interceptors or af's or any T2 versions because all are superior to even most cruisers and are made to hold their own around most ship types long enough to make their role worth having.



Anything with a dronebay is enough to counter T1 frigates, so the role is non-existent. By the way, CCP disagrees with you, since they do counter interceptors preety damn well and are preety much explicitly bonused for this (optimal+tracking? Can you say small guns hitting all the way to disruptor range with precision and deadliness?). Which is largely fine. When under fire by anything, destroyers last about one tenth the time of a T2 frigate.

Originally by: Sith LordX

It should be pretty clear why a 30mill isk af should be able to take out a 1mill isk destroyer like its nothing.



I can confirm you have not flown a destroyer if you say so, because:

(a) there is no destroyer fit worth flying below ~8.5M loss cost (7x t2 arties cost 3.9-4M, T2 gyrostab is 1M and you need at least one, cheapest small rig combo worth fitting is 1M, you need ~1.5M of faction ammo on (you need at least three different ammos in a arty thrasher, preferably four, and at least 300 rounds of each), T2 disruptor is ~1M, and rest of the crap probably half a mil or so. All T2/best named (for CPU) fit would cost you ~20M but not worth it in something so paperthin.

(b) No destroyer fit kills AFs like "it's nothing". It's always a challenging fight vs a non-failfit.

(c) Destroyers last about 10 times shorter then AFs when fired upon by anything larger.

(d) Destroyers are more likely to get caught then AFs, warp slower and lock slower.

(e) Direct ship on ship results are not based on price, else HACs would kill BCs and Tier 1 BS infallibly. T2 ships were never very cost-efficient, and the prices of some of them (eg. AFs) post moongate are one of the biggest issues with the ships.

Originally by: Sith LordX
Noobs fly destroyers


Many destroyer fits require AWU V, and you sure as hell won't get a decent one without AWU IV plus max fittings, and not like it'll be worth a damn without destroyers V + specs at IV. The whole ship practically requires being maxed to compete; many AFs are not in fact as skill intensive as a destroyer which can actually fight.

You can kill nubbins in destroyers in AFs right now. It's the max skilled pilots which have a shot at killing you.

Originally by: Sith LordX

and a destroyers role is to get destroyed by T2 ships.


Explicit bonusing towards interceptor ownage suggests that you have no clue what you're talking about.

Ulstan
Posted - 2009.09.24 17:18:00 - [27]
 

Destroyers have issues right now, with the Thrasher being the best.

Theyh'll be pretty hopelessly outclassed by a couple of the new AF's if the 75% speed bonus goes through. But then, there are huge imbalances within the AF class as well.

The ship class that is *really* imbalanced are dictors. Sabre is the only one worth flying. The missile ones are largely bad because small missiles are bad.

I'd really, to be honest, rather see imbalances in the AF class fixed, and imbalances in the destroyer/dictor class fixed, before a 75% speed boost to AF's is implemented.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2009.09.24 17:19:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Sith LordX
Noobs fly destroyers and a destroyers role is to get destroyed by T2 ships. If you seriously thought it was made to counter all frigates even T2 your in the wrong ship. ugh

/me strokes her Coercer "don't listen to the bad man, it was OK to burn that AF to the ground before he could even align out, shhh shhh .."

They are perfectly capable of toasting any frigate currently available if they get first lock and a starting range of their choosing .. without that they die horribly Very Happy
An AB frigate with a nano-fiber can just about tracking tank AC Thrasher's and Pulse Coercer's. I doubt AF's will have any issues whatsoever if they get their 50% speed increase over their T1 hulls .. just another ship-class on the bonfire of lazy game designers Crying or Very sad

The sub-cruiser classes are together with the tier2 BC's probably the most balanced portion of the game. QR breathed new life into frigates and by extension destroyers to counter them .. good times in the little league.

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2009.09.25 02:01:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 25/09/2009 02:03:16
+1 to the OP. Destroyers seriously need some love. At current, their only good role is in FW for plex gangs and of course salvaging missions.

Hell even with out changing or giving them better bonuses, just giving them each 1 more mid slot would be a awesome upgrade and do wonders for them.

What sucks is you end yup spending 10-12mil to properly fit one and the ship has so many things wrong with it you have to wonder why didn't I just fly a cheap fit cruiser?




Kyra Felann
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.25 02:46:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: HeliosGal
afs getting 15% ab boost give t2 destoryers a 20% ab boost and a salvage and tractor rang eboost ( perhaps even specialised t3 ships)


Salvaging is not an intended role for destroyers. They don't need a salvage bonus--they need to better at their intended role, which is killing frigates.

I would like to see a dedicated salvage ship, but it shouldn't be the destroyer.


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