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Dawts
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.09.22 19:48:00 - [1]
 

11% tax, and if that doesn't work, they'll keep raising the taxes.

I typed out a big long rant about how awsome this is, but I got pwned by the 5 minute timer.

Dev blog says it all. I had the link, but it got pwned too. sry.

Ran Khanon
Amarr
Swords Horses and Heavy Metal
Posted - 2009.09.22 19:53:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Ran Khanon on 22/09/2009 19:53:05

Link: Scroll down for dev reply

"It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis. Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average."



floridajay
Interweb Spaceships Docking Service
Posted - 2009.09.22 19:53:00 - [3]
 

let the emobear tears begin

Mashashige
Minmatar
Eternal Perseverance
Hellstrome Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.22 20:03:00 - [4]
 

Honestly, I doubt this will make much of a difference.

The tax only affects bounties, mission rewards, and time based rewards. All loot/salvage, LP rewards, mining, etc will not be taxed. As someone mentioned on the main thread, bounties and rewards account for approx. 30-40% of the income of a dedicated l4 mission runner - meaning its 11% out of 30, or ~3% tax. Not a bad price to pay for being immune to wardecs.
Also, consider that miners/traders are totally unaffected by this change.

However, I think the important thing to see about all this is that CCP is deeming the "OH Ill just hide in NPC corps and be virtually invulnerable" situation as warranting of attention, and is atleast somewhat dedicated to fixing it. I think that in the next year or so well see some more extensive measures used to deal with this issue, possibly along the lines of: 90day hard limit in NPC corps; exponential tax rate based on time spent in NPC corp; making NPC corps part of the militia fight; etc.

Anywho, Ill just be happy with more carebear tears. HORRAY TEARS!

Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2009.09.22 20:12:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Andrea Griffin on 22/09/2009 20:12:49
Originally by: Mashashige
he tax only affects bounties, mission rewards, and time based rewards. [...] 30-40% of the income of a dedicated l4 mission runner - meaning its 11% out of 30, or ~3% tax. Not a bad price to pay for being immune to wardecs.
Pulling out the intelligent quote for easy perusal. Such a small price for war dec immunity is very worth it.

Ran Khanon
Amarr
Swords Horses and Heavy Metal
Posted - 2009.09.22 20:18:00 - [6]
 

My own suggestion:
Quote:
What would be better is to increase the tax amount the longer you are in there. Say, starting with 10% and going up 5% every month, to a maximum amount of time. When your account is 5 months old you chars can not be part of a noobcorp anymore. The increase would reflect real life taxes where the more monies you make, the more taxes you pay until you get the brilliant idea of becoming a national of Switzerland / Monaco / Andorra, etc, i.e., join a player corp.

RansomList
Posted - 2009.09.22 20:20:00 - [7]
 

Tax is too small to make a difference.

Make NPC corps kick people after 3 months SUBSCRIBED, after which they are dumped into a FW NPC corp and can no longer join 'normal' NPC corps.

Loco Eve
Out-of-Space
Posted - 2009.09.22 20:29:00 - [8]
 

wow, just think of all the local smack from miner or mission runner alts that would eliminate. I say make it 50% tax.

Raiiden
Gallente
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.09.22 20:39:00 - [9]
 

this is the best thing they have done since adding BS rats to lowsec


woot die in a fire you carebears!

Dawts
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.09.22 20:43:00 - [10]
 

CCP said in the blog itself, this is just a starting point, if more people don't leave the NPC corp, the tax will raise.

I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather see the missionrunners out of the NPC corps.. their ships cost more.

Ran Khanon
Amarr
Swords Horses and Heavy Metal
Posted - 2009.09.22 20:53:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Ran Khanon on 22/09/2009 20:57:48
Let's put groups of noobcorp players and how much they are affected by any taxing next to eachother, though:

Wardec escaping mission runners - affected
New players - affected
Trading alts - not affected
Hauler alts - not affected
Spy alts - not affected
Scammer alts - not affected
Ninja alts - not affected
Mining alts - not affected

At least people don't have to be afraid of those corps becoming devoid of life, lol.

Oscardoodle
Amarr
Posted - 2009.09.22 21:33:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: RansomList
Tax is too small to make a difference.

Make NPC corps kick people after 3 months SUBSCRIBED, after which they are dumped into a FW NPC corp and can no longer join 'normal' NPC corps.


This is the first idea I've seen that could actually really work out well.

lollerwaffle
Sileo In Pacis
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2009.09.22 21:39:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Ran Khanon

New players - affected



How exactly? Please elaborate. Also, please none of this discussion in C&P as well :( It's just tax ffs

Ran Khanon
Amarr
Swords Horses and Heavy Metal
Posted - 2009.09.22 21:52:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: lollerwaffle
Originally by: Ran Khanon

New players - affected



How exactly? Please elaborate. Also, please none of this discussion in C&P as well :( It's just tax ffs


Since you can bet your hiney that they'll be running tuts and missions. Most of them that is. Still 11% isn't much at all. That is why I think there should be a maximum to the time an account has access to noobcorps to get rid of the different kinds of wardec avoiders and motivate people to go out, be part of a player corp and enjoy other parts of the game than solo grinding.

Dawts
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.09.22 21:53:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: lollerwaffle
Originally by: Ran Khanon

New players - affected



How exactly? Please elaborate. Also, please none of this discussion in C&P as well :( It's just tax ffs


If you can't see why they are affected, and also why this is C&P worthy, you're stupid.
Military experts are calling you stupid.

Ahistaja
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.09.22 21:58:00 - [16]
 

oh boy another newbie corp tax thread, how remarkable

Nadarius Chrome
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Posted - 2009.09.22 22:49:00 - [17]
 

Expect ISK farmers to do a (extrement)load more corp-hopping to avoid wardecs now. Petitions for that stuff are going to skyrocket.

Ninja Troll
Posted - 2009.09.23 00:49:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Dawts
11% tax, and if that doesn't work, they'll keep raising the taxes.

I typed out a big long rant about how awsome this is, but I got pwned by the 5 minute timer.

Dev blog says it all. I had the link, but it got pwned too. sry.




WHAT?!?

I'm outraged! Dare I say livid =[

How dare they compare the security of high-security space with that of say a good corp/alliance.

And we all know those are free, aye?



Lotus Sutra
Caldari
Sutra Inc
Posted - 2009.09.23 09:01:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 23/09/2009 09:03:49
Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 23/09/2009 09:03:08
Originally by: Nadarius Chrome
Expect ISK farmers to do a (extrement)load more corp-hopping to avoid wardecs now. Petitions for that stuff are going to skyrocket.


Corp hopping isn't an issue to CCP. Opening a corp, then closing it because of a war dec and opening a brand new one with the same players etc is bannable though. Creating 3/6/9/12 alt characters on multiple accounts and training them to corp management 1. Join corp. it gets war dec, you leave it (leaving the CEO to it all alone - corps stays open, war deccer can't do anything but emorage and lose isk.) and join a different alt corp, rinse and repeat as needed.

All CCP did was make the creation of thousands of 1-2 man corps likely to happen when this goes live.

/me gets thousands of buckets ready to collect all the emoragetears from the pirates when they finally realize whats going to happen to them.

Lexa Hellfury
Immortal.
Posted - 2009.09.23 09:59:00 - [20]
 

This will make zero difference whatsoever, everybody will just make their own 1-man corps. The real problem is that there's a ton of NPC corp mission-bears who actually help new players with advice and such. CCP have just counteracted a lot of the work they've done on the "new player experience".

buttesauce
Posted - 2009.09.23 11:45:00 - [21]
 

screw you all get in a real corp

you shouldn't be older then a year and still in the npc corp. that is why i am all far taxation being based on character age.

Setantii
Gallente
Conquistador.
Posted - 2009.09.23 12:08:00 - [22]
 

IMO the NPC Corps should be involved in FW and therefore open to attack by other factions.

However, to help protect newbies a player only becomes legitimate target once they have passed the 1,600,000 S.P threshold.

AizenSousuke
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2009.09.23 12:38:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Setantii
IMO the NPC Corps should be involved in FW and therefore open to attack by other factions.

However, to help protect newbies a player only becomes legitimate target once they have passed the 1,600,000 S.P threshold.


Put this man in the CSM.
Best idea yet to deal with these guys.
Role play it like newbie toons are "cadets" and when they graduate the academy they are enlisted into faction warfare for the glory of the Federation/State/Republic/Empire.

Someone wanna toss this idea into the assembly hall?

Ta'jek
Angels Of Death EVE
Free Worlds Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.23 12:58:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Ta''jek on 23/09/2009 12:58:34
Originally by: Setantii
IMO the NPC Corps should be involved in FW and therefore open to attack by other factions.

However, to help protect newbies a player only becomes legitimate target once they have passed the 1,600,000 S.P threshold.
Do this with all the NPC corps except the newbie starter corps. The newbies can stay in there until a certain skillpoint or time in game threshold is reached then they are booted to one of the other NPC corps which would make them eligible for FW.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2009.09.23 15:07:00 - [25]
 

Here's what I don't get with all the greifer whining.

If you guys like combat so much and want to PVP so badly. Why not fight each other instead of going after noobs in industrials?

Understand I plan on doing PVP, I'm not in a NPC corp my real life buddy and I formed a corporation as soon as we had the spare isk and I had the skills trained. So I'm not hiding behind any sort of special protection from wardecs.

Hell we're doing our little mining corp and running ops as much to create oportunities for combat as to make isk (Could honestly make more isk running missions if that was the only goal, Our miners are pretty much pirate bait who happen to generate a little extra income.

Now all that being said what harm does it do you if someone enjoys this game for aspects other than the PVP? Just because you find mining and mission running boring doesn't mean everyone does. Plus many people do those activities in order to finance their other ingame activities or to gain experience in order to get into other aspects of the game.

Changes like this only serve to discourage casual players from playing which reduces the subscription base which reduces the quality of the product and eventually leads to the game being shut down.

If combat is really that important to you stop Wardecing the newbs and start wardecing each other. Or maybe it's not that you're interested in the PVP aspect of the game, Maybe it's just that being able to be a bully in a game makes up for your pathetic real lives?

Don't get me wrong I like the fact that there is PVP in the game and we've already had a few skirmishes with a couple local can flippers which were enjoyable for both parties and no hard feelings since it's a part of the game.

But griefing is a bull**** tactic of pathetic losers and those who engage in such activity deserve nothing but contempt and pity for their sad little lives.

IamBeastx
Amarr
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.09.23 15:11:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Skex Relbore
Here's what I don't get with all the greifer whining.....


I have nothing to add but i wanted to point this out as being the start of something troll-worthy.

And givez me a cookie

Lady Karma
Posted - 2009.09.23 15:15:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Skex Relbore

But griefing is a bull**** tactic of pathetic losers and those who engage in such activity deserve nothing but contempt and pity for their sad little lives.


There are many reasons to wardec an industrial corp that have nothing to do with griefing. Maybe you are undercutting a competitor that wants revenge, maybe someone wants to monopolize a certain market, or maybe you rage post on the forums calling people you don't know pathetic, and make assumptions about their life.

All seem valid reasons for a war dec to me, btw it sounds like you have anger issues.

BiglipsMarie
Posted - 2009.09.23 15:31:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Skex Relbore
Here's what I don't get with all the greifer whining.

If you guys like combat so much and want to PVP so badly. Why not fight each other instead of going after noobs in industrials?

Understand I plan on doing PVP, I'm not in a NPC corp my real life buddy and I formed a corporation as soon as we had the spare isk and I had the skills trained. So I'm not hiding behind any sort of special protection from wardecs.

Hell we're doing our little mining corp and running ops as much to create oportunities for combat as to make isk (Could honestly make more isk running missions if that was the only goal, Our miners are pretty much pirate bait who happen to generate a little extra income.



I predict the complete and utter failure of your "pvp" career the moment you attempt to fight someone.


Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2009.09.23 15:44:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Skex Relbore on 23/09/2009 15:47:27
Originally by: Lady Karma
Originally by: Skex Relbore

But griefing is a bull**** tactic of pathetic losers and those who engage in such activity deserve nothing but contempt and pity for their sad little lives.


There are many reasons to wardec an industrial corp that have nothing to do with griefing. Maybe you are undercutting a competitor that wants revenge, maybe someone wants to monopolize a certain market, or maybe you rage post on the forums calling people you don't know pathetic, and make assumptions about their life.

All seem valid reasons for a war dec to me, btw it sounds like you have anger issues.


I understand that there are legitimate reasons to Wardec an industrial corporation. The people doing so for legitimate in game reasons are not the ones I'm trying to address in this post.

Wardecs are obviously an intended mechanism in the game and it's all fine and dandy for those who want to engage in that aspect of the game. I have full intention of doing so myself at some point in the future (a month in is probably a little early though).

My comments are aimed not at those with legitmate beefs with other players my attack is aimed squarely on those losers who's primary motivation seems to be to get access to easy defenseless kills.

If that does not describe you then my comment is not directed at you.

My point is that metagaming aside games like this need a large userbase to support them. And it is the nature of such user bases that the majority of them do not get enjoyment out of being presented as cattle to be slaughtered by the wolves.

From reading the threads on this subject a large number of the proponents of the tax increase seem to be focused primarily on the potential for a target rich environment.

Lets discuss legitimate wardecs. In theory a wardec should be over control of resources. In lowsec and nulsec this makes sence if you can't defend your **** someone else will take it since it's essentially a no-mans land from Concords perspective.

Empire space is different. It is civilization with certain rules and expectations of behavior. Those resources in those systems are the collective properties of all citizens of the empire and as such no single group has a legitimate claim on them. So arguments about controling resources are irrelevant.

Now while there are probably some people who abuse the NPC corporations in order to avoid accountability for their ingame actions the solution is not to punish innocent people just trying to play and have fun and give CCP money to maintain the servers.

Like I said before I'm not in an NPC corp and the proposed change would have no direct impact on me. However if it drives paying subscribers away it does affect me because it undermines the quality and future of this product which I enjoy.

I may be an EVE newb but I'm not an MMO newb there is a basic economic calculation here that new subscribers must be equal to or greater than cancelations or else the game will die.

Punishing your casual (and most profitable) customers is not a good idea ever. I suspect that the majority of people in the NPC corps are most likely casual gamers who can't commit the time to engage in the PC corp metagame. These customers are the best customers. They only log in for a very limited amount of time and take far fewer cpu cycles than the hardcore 23/7 player. They pay the same subscription so they generate more revenue per cpu cycle.

They are also the most likely to quit over perceived nerfs. Hardcore players may whine and cry about nerfs but generally they aren't cancelling their accounts over them.

And while it may be fun to tease and taunt the Carebears they are quite litterally the reason you have this game to play in the first place.

Stupid McStupidson
Gallente
Hoek Lyne and Sinker
Posted - 2009.09.23 15:48:00 - [30]
 

Oh hai guyz, look! Another corp tax thread!


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