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Valrandir
Gallente
Distant Thunder
Perihelion Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.22 21:22:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist

Also, 11% is too low tbh and suspect it won't really do much. But I also suspect you won't have people to monitor these things, and will probably stay off changing it in the future to avoid more drama. Sad


Make it 20% now and then forget about it.

T'san Manaan
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.22 21:31:00 - [92]
 

Can we use the income from these new taxes for universal clone care?

Thallidus
Posted - 2009.09.22 21:34:00 - [93]
 

Clearly the proper solution is to use the stick to beat people into player corps they are not interested in joining. Rather then creating the carrot of benefits and fixing the issues (lack of decent corp (re)search system, high sec wardec station games that are mind numbingly boring or frustratingly one sided) that keep people out.

I suspect that any real attempts to force new players into player corps before they want to will simply result in even lower new player retention rates. And lets be honest, the number of accounts in eve is going up, but I'd love to see if the number of PEOPLE in EvE has done anything but dwindle.

So much for the sandbox.

Mister Xerox
Posted - 2009.09.22 21:39:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
So why this change?
* NPC corporations are meant to be temporary spaces where people can go about their daily activities while searching for a player corporation. Currently the level of comfort they provide, both in terms of war declaration immunity and 0% tax, give them an inherent advantage over player corporations which was never intended. Hopefully, this will let player corporations compete on equal footing with NPC corporations.


If the 'average' player corporation tax is 10%, how do you think a mere 1% difference is going to lean an NPC corp hugger toward joining a PC corp?

If the NPC tax is not at least twice as heavy as the PC corp average (20% NPC tax v/ 10% PC corp tax) then they're going to just shrug off the 1% difference that pays for their complete immunity from wars.

Or, as has been said ad nauseum... create a mob of 1-4 char + alts corp and set the taxes to 0 and drive on with pretty much zero risk from wardecs anyway. If declared they just dock & log on some other 1 man alt corp and continue their farming.

Checks are slowly being put into place, but they're hardly any more onerous than a 2oz weight on the shoulder... burns a few more calories over time but is otherwise ignored.


Originally by: CCP Soundwave
* We would prefer that players join player corporations, or other entities that shape the world of EVE at a higher degree than the NPC corporations do, due to their impersonal and somewhat isolated role. That said, this change is not implemented to “destroy” NPC corps, they should be considered a small motivation to join a player corporation, where you can develop and flourish as a player.


Don't destroy NPC corps, but making existing in them permanently increasingly more and more difficult. Scaling taxes, dropping agent qualities, agents from 'opposing' factions downright denying missions. If the Pilot wishes to continue to grow they MUST leave the NPC corporations (except FW).

Sharp Feather
Gallente
POS Builder Inc.
Silent Requiem
Posted - 2009.09.22 21:40:00 - [95]
 

Edited by: Sharp Feather on 22/09/2009 21:40:45

May I ask a question to whoever come across? Yes? Ok good, here it goes; Why, oh why, can players create a one man corp? Isnt a corporation, by definition, made of more than one single individual? Question


Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.22 21:43:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Mister Xerox
Don't destroy NPC corps, but making existing in them permanently increasingly more and more difficult. Scaling taxes, dropping agent qualities, agents from 'opposing' factions downright denying missions. If the Pilot wishes to continue to grow they MUST leave the NPC corporations (except FW).

Because everyone knows that there's only 1 correct way to play a sandbox game.

[/sarcasm, in case anyone didn't get that]

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.22 21:49:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Julian Lynq on 22/09/2009 21:56:05
Originally by: Ukucia
Originally by: Mister Xerox
Don't destroy NPC corps, but making existing in them permanently increasingly more and more difficult. Scaling taxes, dropping agent qualities, agents from 'opposing' factions downright denying missions. If the Pilot wishes to continue to grow they MUST leave the NPC corporations (except FW).

Because everyone knows that there's only 1 correct way to play a sandbox game.

[/sarcasm, in case anyone didn't get that]


We have no right to complain. We are not worthy of this game.
Don´t forgett we are RMT Traders.

A fresh approach from Ccp to force extra tax onto RMT Traders instead of banning their accounts. Makes alot of sense to me, like the whole thing.

DoomsdaySpectre
Posted - 2009.09.22 21:50:00 - [98]
 

The taxation of the NPc corps is a fresh idea, but some questions still remain:
For what purpose that tax money will gone? If its just another way to remove some ISKs from game - thats not so awesome like most of the members from non-NPC corps thought. If that will drive capsuleers to 0.0 in upcoming expansion or to enter another Player owned corps thats again not so awesome,as it could be.
I think, first of all, player should choose, what NPC corp he would like to serve.The second, what benefits he(she) will gain if joined that choosen corp.(Cause for now we have only one benefit from NPC corp - not being affected by corp wars in Empire space, not mentioning the tax=0%)
The benefits may be so different, begining from discounts on some items sold by NPC, till, special corp missions or Corp LP shop or etc..Also corps should be divided into some kinds of area of influences like mining, mission running, research, manufacturing. So for example miners will join "Deep Core Mining Inc." and mission-runners "Caldary Navy".So in conclusion, all should come in game balanced in the field where its implemented: tax in NPC corp + benefits from the corp.Details can be worked out in the process,but working in one way will not be so awesome - it will be only 50%.Anyway nice idea.Thanks CCP!

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2009.09.22 21:57:00 - [99]
 

Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 22/09/2009 22:00:12


No problem with the 11% tax or the blog. It seems a fair amount and effort to me at this stage.

One problem I do have, and have had with Eve's taxes since my early days in Eve as a CEO and your average player is that some professions are impossible to tax:

Mining (and macromining) will remain unaffected in NPC corps by this change since CCP provide no mechanic or even statistics for being able to tax mining. [[Edit: Idea You provide information on all corporate kills, losses etc, so why not Mining yeild statistics? Would provide goals for corporate miners similar to PVPers.. TBH]]

Trading as a profession in NPC corps is not affected by these taxes either; And in player corporations due to poor accountablity and security mechanics, the risks of theft means corporate trading is highly vulnerable and therefore not a viable option in the most part.

Those two "professions" really need to be brought into the remit of taxes and corporate accountability/security scope with better CCP provided tools and mechanics if you truely want to push ALL types of players towards player corporations (that can actually benefit from those player types).

NB - I'm not saying its completely impossible to 'work around' all the security flaws of trading and poor accountability of mining within player corps, but it generally is too much effort studying logs, spreadsheets and tracing/tracking corp theives for corp management without any decent CCP provided "in-game" tools, when they just want to "play" the game too.

ThorTheGreat
Caldari
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.09.22 21:57:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Sharp Feather
Edited by: Sharp Feather on 22/09/2009 21:40:45

May I ask a question to whoever come across? Yes? Ok good, here it goes; Why, oh why, can players create a one man corp? Isnt a corporation, by definition, made of more than one single individual? Question




No. IRL at least the term corporation in no way requires the membership of more than one party.

Gideon Kross
Caldari
Kross Industries Ltd
Posted - 2009.09.22 22:07:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: Gideon Kross on 22/09/2009 22:08:00
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 22/09/2009 22:00:12


No problem with the 11% tax or the blog. It seems a fair amount and effort to me at this stage.

One problem I do have, and have had with Eve's taxes since my early days in Eve as a CEO and your average player is that some professions are impossible to tax:

Mining (and macromining) will remain unaffected in NPC corps by this change since CCP provide no mechanic or even statistics for being able to tax mining. [[Edit: Idea You provide information on all corporate kills, losses etc, so why not Mining yeild statistics? Would provide goals for corporate miners similar to PVPers.. TBH]]

Trading as a profession in NPC corps is not affected by these taxes either; And in player corporations due to poor accountablity and security mechanics, the risks of theft means corporate trading is highly vulnerable and therefore not a viable option in the most part.

Those two "professions" really need to be brought into the remit of taxes and corporate accountability/security scope with better CCP provided tools and mechanics if you truely want to push ALL types of players towards player corporations (that can actually benefit from those player types).

NB - I'm not saying its completely impossible to 'work around' all the security flaws of trading and poor accountability of mining within player corps, but it generally is too much effort studying logs, spreadsheets and tracing/tracking corp theives for corp management without any decent CCP provided "in-game" tools, when they just want to "play" the game too.


Increasing the base transaction tax from 1% to 12% (adjustable by standing, and trade skills), should resolve such issues.

The Macro Miners would definitely feel the pinch, and either leave or there would be a notable increase in purchases of Social and Trade Skill Books.
Wink

Garok Nor
Caldari
Blueprint Haus
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2009.09.22 22:11:00 - [102]
 

Edited by: Garok Nor on 22/09/2009 22:12:22
It's not a tax... it's a "Revenue Enhancement Program" ;P

And also about time.

11%? A little low don't you think?

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.22 22:13:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: CCP Prism X

For my part, I had wet dreams about making it 100%.. cause I really dislike people farming ISK with immunity and intending to sell it through RMT. Thankfully they don't let draconian little me design stuff. Laughing


Care to show the data that say that all the mission runners in the NPC corps or even a reasonably high percentage are involved in RMT?

If it is a accusation you throw around because you find it funny think again, it is not funny at all.

If show a profound level of prejudice. A bad trait for someone that is involved in managing and developing the game.




Max Torps
Nomadic Conglomerate
Posted - 2009.09.22 22:26:00 - [104]
 

Great move but as others have pointed out it really should be viewed as the first in many steps.

There really is no need for a player to remain in an NPC corp, if the player corp they are in has enough nails to protect its members. Whether that is by reputation, actual dominance or fighting ability as all three vary in all corps.

Now that some (note some) of the easy money route is removed, there are still plenty of areas that being in a player corp can bring such as standings, services applied to stations via standings, restrictions on npc services reliant on standings etc.

All in all great. But I know you (CCP) like baby steps. As they are in a positive direction, whether npc'ers realise or not, that's a good thing. People still have a choice. It's just a teeny bit harder.

Mikayla Grey
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.22 22:27:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
To be permawardecced? Every corp except eve-uni, since they are really well organized, better than can you expect from the average corp, which focusses on rookies will be perma wardecced by our 'pro' pvp'ers. That is just the sad truth.


Lol its amazing how clueless you are. Permawardecced my ass.

Originally by: Kerfira

You forget one CRUCIAL thing! Playing EVE enough to get accepted into a good corp!
It is correct there are no shortage of corp that'll accept newbies to help scam them... The ones you really want to join require a certain level of attendance.



Bullcrap. Its easy to find a good corp without any sort of attendance requirement, especially in highsec. But you probably wont get into a top 0.0 pvp corp when you have never left motsu.

LegendaryFrog
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.09.22 22:29:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: CCP Prism X

For my part, I had wet dreams about making it 100%.. cause I really dislike people farming ISK with immunity and intending to sell it through RMT. Thankfully they don't let draconian little me design stuff. Laughing


Care to show the data that say that all the mission runners in the NPC corps or even a reasonably high percentage are involved in RMT?

If it is a accusation you throw around because you find it funny think again, it is not funny at all.

If show a profound level of prejudice. A bad trait for someone that is involved in managing and developing the game.







My people deserve better! Rolling Eyes

All other BS aside, npc corp members will complain because it is a nerf to their income (which is unbalanced in the grand risk vs. reward scheme of eve given that before now being in an npc corp was all reward and no risk as far as gameplay was concerned).

You will likely find it that higher than 11% is needed for the desired effect to be possible, but it is a good starting place. There is a reason why a very large portion of 0.0 players have alts in NPC empire corps for their money making business. An actual downside to NPC corps + the planned increased incentive for the individual living with the risk of 0.0 space should go a long way to fix this.

Raquel Smith
Caldari
Freedom-Technologies
Sev3rance
Posted - 2009.09.22 22:32:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: CCP Prism X
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 22/09/2009 15:12:10
Originally by: Aethrwolf
while I am all for taxes in the npc corps for pretty much the same reasons stated, there are probably better carrots you could give player corps.


This change hardly means that no further changes will be made on NPC corps. Wink
It was just a low hanging fruit, involving little to no coding for me, with readily available data, for the designers to work with, so it was a no-brainer as a first choice. We have to be careful when we're messing with the NPE as your first days of income tend to matter. Thankfully L1s have such a horrendous ISK generation that I doubt either reward will be enough to break the tax bracket threshold (..wait.. is that good?!).

For my part, I had wet dreams about making it 100%.. cause I really dislike people farming ISK with immunity and intending to sell it through RMT. Thankfully they don't let draconian little me design stuff. Laughing


There's an interview in SimCity 2000: Power, Politics and Planning guide where Wil Wright says that he turned the tax rate up to 100% in Sim City 2000 and the Sims jumped out of his PC and attacked him, so that's why the tax rate cap is under a certain amount (I think it caps at 25% but it's been 15 years). Be warry of 100% tax rates CoolYARRRR!!

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2009.09.22 22:32:00 - [108]
 

Nice change, but seeing as only some tranactions are taxed, it's not enough.

You should give corp CEOs the option of demanding a 0.05%, 0.10% or 0.15% tax on all market/contract sales (thus they get the opton of no market tax, or three low rates), and then have NPC corps charge 0.3%, twice the highest rate that a PC corp can charge.

That will not destroy any reasonable profit margins, but it will act as an incentive for traders to move into PC corporations, something that your current scheme does not do.


Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2009.09.22 22:39:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Caldor Mansi
Awesome. We need more pointless things like 1 man corps in New Eden.


Keep it coming!


Actually, there are two things one may desire, even though the dev blog only speaks of one of them.

One thing is the social aspect of encouraging pilots to join PC corporations.

The other thing, which CCP probably also wants even though they forgot to mention it in the dev blog, is that more pilot should be vulnerable to war decs.

Clairista
Posted - 2009.09.22 22:44:00 - [110]
 

If your so Pew Pew Pew about people staying in NPC corps why don't you impose a time limit? Say after one month start taxing 10% of total wallet per day? The exception if any would be that first NPC corp - For the Caldari the SAK - give the wet behind the ear newb 3 to 6 months to train up all the necessary skills to protect and defend oneself.

And I do say let NPC's wardec each other. Nothing like a system full of Ibis wrecks and Care bear tears...oh wait those tears my be mine. ughMadRazz

Phi Au
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.09.22 22:46:00 - [111]
 

Edited by: Phi Au on 22/09/2009 23:09:00
Oh come on!!

If you're going to tax NPC corps... then we demand shared aggro and the ability to return to the NPC corp you have left.
If you want to introduce the penalties to NPC corps then you need to introduce the benefits to counter them.

Then lets see what happens to n00b-space griefers.

Some of us can't afford more than a couple of hours play-time a week... 200 to 600 people in CAS chat is the most social some of us can hope to get.
total BS.

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.22 22:49:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Salpad
Originally by: Caldor Mansi
Awesome. We need more pointless things like 1 man corps in New Eden.


Keep it coming!


Actually, there are two things one may desire, even though the dev blog only speaks of one of them.

One thing is the social aspect of encouraging pilots to join PC corporations.

The other thing, which CCP probably also wants even though they forgot to mention it in the dev blog, is that more pilot should be vulnerable to war decs.


As posted a trillion time in all the threads on this:
1) Doesn't help social aspect. I get lots more social interaction chatting with the 400 people in Scope than the 2 people online in a 10-man corp. And that's assuming I do what Prism X wants to beat me into doing.

2) Wardecs are trivial to avoid. Disband and re-form the corp for less ISK than the wardecer paid.

This change will accomplish nothing but irritate people, and the dev posts on this subject are supreme examples of "what not to say when involved in public relations".

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.22 22:55:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Clairista
If your so Pew Pew Pew about people staying in NPC corps why don't you impose a time limit? Say after one month start taxing 10% of total wallet per day? The exception if any would be that first NPC corp - For the Caldari the SAK - give the wet behind the ear newb 3 to 6 months to train up all the necessary skills to protect and defend oneself.

Because that would require Prism X to change some source code. It might require, you know, effort. Possibly even trying to figure out why player corps are failing to drain everyone out of NPC corps, since player corps are the only awesome thing about EvE.

Much better to just start being more and more punitive to the players in NPC corps. They're all RMTers anyway.

*sigh* I'm getting way to annoyed about the mountain of stupid surrounding this change.

Caldor Mansi
Posted - 2009.09.22 22:58:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Salpad

One thing is the social aspect of encouraging pilots to join PC corporations.

The other thing, which CCP probably also wants even though they forgot to mention it in the dev blog, is that more pilot should be vulnerable to war decs.


It is funny how none of those objectives will be even remotly accomplished by proposed change.

1) People will make 1 man corps, losing the social attachement to EVE community and quiting EVE because of the loneliness.
2) While 1 man corps are technicaly vulnerable to War decs but not that much in reality. At the end, they can disband the corp in case they get warred.

It is just another EVE change that did not get further in development procces then: 'Hey, that would be great idea!'.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.22 23:01:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Mikayla Grey
Bullcrap. Its easy to find a good corp without any sort of attendance requirement, especially in highsec. But you probably wont get into a top 0.0 pvp corp when you have never left motsu.

No. It actually isn't! When you're a CASUAL player, spending maybe 2-3 hours a week in EVE to relax from your daily routine, you DON'T want to spend those hunting for a corp, maybe getting into a bad one and getting scammed/killed out of what for you are weeks worth.
Remember, these are players CCP lured into EVE by the slogan "Be what YOU want to be!", but now they're suddenly being penalised.

And just FYI, two of my mains ARE in a top 0.0 PvP corp Razz
I'm not one of the 'casual' players I'm talking about, but I can still see someone else's point of view. Something you seem incapable of...

The main reason I'm speaking out against this change is that it's short-sighted, doesn't take into account all the negatives it'll result in, doesn't take into account the people actually staying in NPC corp and their reasons for doing so, has more holes in it than a sieve, and more to the point will mean LESS social interaction for a LOT of EVE players.
The last bit is a sort of peculiar goal for an MMO game company to strive for.

CCP are trying to find an easy way out of a complex problem! That never works!

What really needs to be done is decrease high-sec earnings in GENERAL (particularly L4 missions). That way, being in a player corp that strikes out in WH-space, low-sec or 0.0 will BE sufficiently attractive that there doesn't need to be any silly restrictions on a player group that prefers the easy social community of the NPC corp. They'll not feel pressured into playing someone else's game, nor will they feel penalised by that choice.
They'll still earn less than player corp, but this will be explained by the risk/reward factor, not as a specific punishment on a certain group of people. There'll be the usual whining of.c., but most people will understand the fundamental fairness in that more risk gives more reward (which unfortunately is not the case today).

Please try to see things from other peoples perspective too, and not just from your own narrow egotistical view of the world....

Comander Brenni
Kraktech Industries
Posted - 2009.09.22 23:06:00 - [116]
 

\o/ NPC taxes! Go CCP
But one thing spring to mind and that is; What is it that convinced CCP that "caerbears" is BAD and shoud be shot at sight? PvP IS fun ocationaly, but so is building a carrier, somone has to feed the meatgrinder...

Azia Burgi
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.09.22 23:07:00 - [117]
 

If CCP really want everyone out of NPC corps I would ask, or rather demand, that they put a GM or ISD permanently in every NPC to field the questions that normally would have been answered by a veteran. We all know rookie help is the most pointless channel ever.


CCP Soundwave


C C P Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.22 23:25:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Ukucia
Originally by: Clairista
If your so Pew Pew Pew about people staying in NPC corps why don't you impose a time limit? Say after one month start taxing 10% of total wallet per day? The exception if any would be that first NPC corp - For the Caldari the SAK - give the wet behind the ear newb 3 to 6 months to train up all the necessary skills to protect and defend oneself.

Because that would require Prism X to change some source code. It might require, you know, effort. Possibly even trying to figure out why player corps are failing to drain everyone out of NPC corps, since player corps are the only awesome thing about EvE.

Much better to just start being more and more punitive to the players in NPC corps. They're all RMTers anyway.

*sigh* I'm getting way to annoyed about the mountain of stupid surrounding this change.


Just to make it clear, I designed this change. If you're going to blame anyone, put it on me Cool

none4u
Posted - 2009.09.22 23:29:00 - [119]
 

My take on all this is the same when I read all the other various posts on different subjects spread thru out the forum. You have the players who are hell bent on criticizing all the other players because they do not play the game the way they want it to be played. In this instance pay the tax or do not pay.
Don't pay don't play and find another game to play in. Form a 1 man corp and they say others will war dec you and so on down the line. Regardless of what is required to play the game and survive, we are all pretty intelligent individuals, we will all adapt to what changes the game will bring and somehow another day in EVE is born.
With all this being said, I am looking forward to the new expansion coming down the pike called "DOMINION". I am a 6 month old character, not part of any corporation, and it will stay this way until I am 1 years old. I have another character that was born a few days ago with this "power of 2".
So my point is, regardless of what is implemented between now and the new expansion, personally do not pay any mind to it, it is tiny in comparison to probably what is coming, behind every dark cloud is a silver lining waiting to line your pockets.
Honestly, I really hope CCP makes so many changes to this game for the new expansion, that all the people who get on this forum and criticize others because they do not play the way they interpret the game, they will be the ones who will be crying the most tears you will need an umbrella to stay dry.

Scifi
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.09.22 23:40:00 - [120]
 

I oddly support this idea...and expanding corp taxes to encompass all market transactions (for everyone). From back when I was a PC corp that was always the biggest joke when it came time for a corp money op. The ratters spent the week getting nothing but the occasional piece of loot you couldn't sell (due to being 50+ jumps from empire and woe be unto him who tries to get some personal loot transported out) while the traders could keep getting tax-free isk from sell orders they had up.

Keep the no-tax bracket high enough to not hurt the n00bs but low-enough to make all of us feel an impact. If I found npc corp tax was cutting into my income enough I'd definitely switch out to a player corp. Only thing really keeping me in my NPC corp right now is A) the area I'm in seems to be filled with 5-10 man corps B) my hours are sporadic and C) there's just enough player interaction in DCMI that I don't feel like I'm playing a massively single player online game.


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