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Gogela
Freeport Exploration
Posted - 2009.09.22 03:39:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Gogela on 26/09/2009 18:17:41
EXECUTIVE HIGHLIGHTS

What I'm proposing is a dedicated ninja looter/salvager multi-role ship class. What follows is my justification for this class, a little background information on the profession, some comparing and contrasting of various existing ship classes for this role, and at the end a rough look at what I see the final ship looking like with regards to fittings, modules, bonuses, etc... I think this is overdue, but I'm very interested in feedback or thoughts.

BACKGROUND

I've been a ninja salvager virtually full time since the salvaging profession was made available. Though the act of ninja salvaging is the topic of much heated debate on the forums, I submit to you it is just as valid, and in fact, a necessary and inevitable outcome of a game based on "sensitive dependence based on initial conditions" (the existence of a ninja salvager/looter profession being an undeniable initial condition). Consider for a moment piracy in EvE. There is a significant portion of the EvE population whom I'm sure would love to see piracy banned outright. Is it a valid profession? Pirates of EvE sure seem to think so, and they have been ransoming and gate camping since there were EvE gates to camp. As soon as it became possible to gatecamp and live the virtual life of a star pirate, there were those eager to fulfill the role. Because of this low sec haulers and miners need scouts, protection, and alliances to protect them from pirates. By allowing piracy, we see a bunch of new professions pop up in response to the threat. Diversity and thus potential for new emergent behavior increases. EvE gets better.

Likewise, the advent of salvaging has created a niche group of pod pilots that have found they can make a living being a ninja salvager. This profession has several subsets of activity within it already. Some sit cloaked 200km or so off gates where they know conflict will occur, and during the battle warp in and loot a wreck or two. This is a dangerous business, as often they fall victim to the fighting. However, a successful heist can often more than pay for a ninjas replacement ship. Others are satisfied to scan down mission runners, from High Sec to 0.0, and loot battlefields of NPCs no one else cared to bother with, or in some cases, right under the noses of the battles victor! To me this seems more pirate-like than even camping gates. Real pirates don't look for a fight with a well equipped foe, they look for that weak transport or derelict hulk in order to plunder the riches. Though too dangerous for my blood, some of my fellow ninjas have even taken to trying to move in on hacking and archeology cans at professional deadspace sites while other (hostile) pilots are still clearing the NPCs! For every action there is a counter, and ninja salvagers can instigate that push for diversity. With the proliferation of salvage ninjas, perhaps it behooves a fleet to bring along interceptor support to fend them off, as opposed to the boring "everyone in battleships" formula most have been conforming to on missions and plexes. Ninja salvaging, I've noticed, also draws the lone wolves uninterested in joining vast alliances into alliance held 0.0 and low sec space. Ratting, mining, and mission running don't make sense for the lone wolf in space filled with aligned pilots looking to kill you... but if one can get in, grab, and get out quickly enough, the risk vs reward equation starts looking a little more reasonable.

The bottom line here is that you can make a decent living in EvE now as a professional salvager. It's risky, it's fun, and the bar for entry to the field is reasonably low. It's just a shame the ships we are using to carry out the act of ninja salvaging are so misbalanced and odd in their stats. At the bottom of this post I am including what I think is a very reasonable dedicated salvaging ship. I encourage you to take a quick look before reading the next section about why I would do things that way.

Gogela
Freeport Exploration
Posted - 2009.09.22 03:45:00 - [2]
 

TECHNICAL RATIONALE: WHAT DO WE HAVE ALREADY?

In order to establish a need for this ship, I'd like to talk a little about my experiences trying to find the ideal ship class for ninja salvaging. I've gone through countless hulls in my search, and I'm going to just go down the list of ship classes and explain what works and what doesn't.

Battle Cruisers / Command Ships
Just crazy. Slow to go to warp when you need to get in and out fast, these beasts of battle are way too bulky to ninja. Moreover, their slow velocity without a mwd will ensure that other ninjas will get to the wreck before you do. Fighting back isn't an option when all your high slots are filled with salvagers, so BC class wanna-be ninjas personify the tank and get spanked mantra. BC: a poor choice.

Cruisers/HACs/HICs/Logistics
This is a lot closer, but still no cigar. You will find that T2 cruisers are expensive, yet STILL too slow to go to warp. The cargo capacity on some of these ships is sufficient for the job, and with all those mids and lows put up a fierce tank, but what I've learned being a ninja is that no tank is good enough. I've been in situations where both sides stopped fighting just to kill little old me! When 2 sets of tacklers is coming at you, there's not a lot of places left to go. For a long while I did all my ninja work in a HAC, and I still managed to stay positive in the ISK... but just barely. I lost a lot of HACs in part because they were still just too lethargic for the job. T1 cruisers have all the weaknesses of a HAC and none of the benefits. As such, though being a cruiser class ninja making isk is possible, there are better options.

Destroyers
Much more attractive! Now you can fit 7 salvagers, a cloak, a stab or two, and MAYBE even a MWD! But oh snap... you'll find that even if you have the CPU to jam all this junk on your destroyer, using even half of it will drain your cap before your salvagers get to their second cycle. Survivability in being a ninja depends largely on minimizing your time around your target. The longer you stay around, the more time the guys who made all those wrecks your salvaging will have to come back and lock you. With half your modules inoperable, the length of time it takes to salvage even one wreck will greatly increase, and that MWD isn't coming back on if you need to run! Verdict is: Destroyers - keeping poor ninjas poor

Interdictors
So this is it. Interdictors are the best ninja ship in eve hands down, but that's not to say it's great. Let's look at the pros and cons: PROS = Plenty of CPU for MWD, Cloak, 7 salvagers, 2 salvaging rigs (small ones at that! good news for wallet) and 3 stabs down low. Run it all and you can salvage a fair number of ships quickly and not run out of cap. Agile enough to enter warp quickly, and velocity + MWD = fair getaway capability of you are in a bubble. Ship is strong enough to take a few licks (unlike a destroyer that would otherwise be insta popped) during escape. CONS = almost too much power. If you can fly a dictor you can have an ideal setup right off the bat. Even with this fit you will have a fair amount of CPU and a ridiculous amount of power left to boot. Cannot warp cloaked. No bonuses for anything that matters. Dictors are great ninja ship, but they could be a lot better... I for one would be more than happy to trade off all that extra power, a mid slot or two, and a tiny bit of CPU for a few worthwhile bonuses.

Cov Ops
Warping cloaked is nice, but you can't salvage cloaked! I see people try this all the time. Not many highs for salvagers, low on cargo space, and little HP makes for very few successful runs per ship. Those that are successful will be hampered by low cargo space. It's also hard to make successive runs when one shot puts you in structure. The one good point is that you can warp away quickly.

Gogela
Freeport Exploration
Posted - 2009.09.22 03:51:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Gogela on 26/09/2009 18:20:58
Other Frigs
A tendency to overshoot the target will leave you frustrated all the time. I can't tell you how many times a little frig zipped past me to get to a wreck first and than overshot it outside of loot transfer range... leaving me to the booty. Yar you very much speedy. All the disadvantages of a cov ops without the ability to warp cloaked. Fail ninja frig.

Honorable mention: the Blockade Runner
This is the one thing I haven't tried, though I have seen it work. During a large enough battle so many ships are lost on both sides that those few left standing can't even fit all the loot in their holds. This is particularly true when capital ships get involved. At those rare times it is very dangerous to be seen lurking about. Enter the ninja blockade runner. I've seen them fill up their entire cargo holds w/ T2 frigs and fittings by warping to the wreck cloaked, immediately entering warp again, and on the way out grabbing their loot. It's quick to warp, and can be very effective in this scenario. Down side: not many highs for salvagers, not quick in space from wreck to wreck, expensive to lose (particularly on a large and dangerous battlefield as described), and opportunities like the one described rarely present themselves to the ninja, who needs to be at the right place at the right time.

No other ship classes bare mention that I can think of, but I think this pretty well proves the need for a dedicated vessel. I mean, salvaging wasn't even around when these ship classes came into being. It seems like a no-brainer to me that we get a ship designed specifically for this new profession.

TECHNICAL RATIONALE: PRINCIPAL VISION

We need a dedicated ship, first and foremost. I think that ship should have bonuses, and in order to get those bonuses you should have to train up a skill specific to this class of ship. This ship needs to have distinct advantages over any other ships in its intended role, obviously, otherwise we'll keep flying interdictors. An interdictor is a combat ship, this is not, so remove the combat effectiveness of the dictor. Ninja salvaging is a dangerous game baby! I wouldn't have it any other way. It should be a destroyer class ship though. Perhaps in exchange for the HP we get cargo space in return. A large cargo hold allows the ninja to keep filling it over and over on successive runs. That in turn will make then an even more attractive target to the killers that made the wrecks in the first place, as a ninja kill might drop a decent amount of loot! More danger for ninjas = more fun. Salvaging drones would be cool, but maybe save those for a later class of ninja ship, maybe something indy class that supports large fleets in complexes. Just and idea (expanded on below). No need for mids other than a MWD and maybe a hacking or analyzer module, and lows are good for stabs. I need at least 3 stabs, or I'm using an interdictor. That's how important those stabs are. Make no mistake... ninjas die a lot. You can't get by with just 2 stabs.

WHY ORE: EXTENSIBILITY 101

So yah, why should ORE be producing this ship? Why not give every class in EvE a ship? More ships are good, aren't they? Not in this case, my friend. Consider this: CCP actually puts out this ship, x4 for Gallente, Minmatar, Caldari, and Amarr. Then they decide "wouldn't it be cool if another version of this ship could salvage implant components from corpses in space?" Rad. x4 more. Now we want a ship more dedicated to following a fleet through a complex and salvaging everything in site, with larger cargo hold and able to fit larger tractor beams. Sweet. x4 more. This could go on and on. Before you know it there are 64 new ships 3/4ths of which don't really provide a big bonus over one another because this ship class has nothing to do with the racial advantages generally focused on combat.

Gogela
Freeport Exploration
Posted - 2009.09.22 03:56:00 - [4]
 

This really isn't a combat vessel. Maybe it makes more sense for another syndicate... NOT ORE but rather one more logistically focused to be responsible for this ships inception. I would like to see it somehow tied to the repair facilities on stations. Call it the Interstellar Engineering Union (IEU) or something. Whatever. The bottom line is these ships are independent of the benefits a racial ship enjoys... I'm all for new ships, but I'm not for clutter.

PROPOSED SHIP: Interstellar Engineering Union (IEU) or ORE Wrecker (or you could call it the "Gogela" YARRRR!!)

Developer: Interstellar Engineering Union (IEU) or ORE
In response to the rapid expanse of industry operations into previously unknown parts of space, the ORE Syndicate designed this dedicated research and salvaging ship and equipped with electronic subsystems specifically designed to facilitate the computation intensive hacking, salvaging, and archeology modules (or something therea'bouts)
Fittings:
High - 8 (no missiles or turrets)
Mid - 2
Low - 4

Cargo Hold: 700m3
CPU - More than an interdictor
Power - Less than a destroyer
Shield, Armor, and Hull HP - between a destroyer and an interdictor

Prerequisite Skills for Space Wrecker (spaceship command ) skill
Destroyers @ V
Salvaging @ V
Hacking @ IV
Archeology @ IV
Salvaging Drones @ I

Drones:
Drone Bay 15m3 with bandwidth for 3 small salvaging drones
*should have greater agility than interdictors or destroyers

Bonuses:
10% Bonus to range of salvaging, hacking, and analyzer modules per level
5% Bonus to likelihood of salvage, hacking, or analyzer access per level
-98% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level (can fir cov ops cloaking device)

POST SCRIPT

I think what I've outlined here is a pretty good start, but I'm definitely interested in what other people have to say on this topic. I want to have a conversation about how other ninjas are operating, and to get a better idea of how we can refine this ship class and make it happen. The need for a dedicated salvager is clear to me beyond discussion, so no trolls please... how this ship ends up coming into eve is a question I'm interested in exploring further. Any other thoughts or ideas? I'm very interested in comments.

Gogela
Freeport Exploration
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:03:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Gogela on 22/09/2009 05:04:13
Origins

One more thought: I was just looking at the "Infested Dominix" ship in game. If you haven't seen that yet, you can visit the site www.gogela.com/eve/info.php for a list of all in game ships, and pull up the ship model by clicking on the link. This must be done in game. The Infested Dominix looks awesome. It looks like it's just dieing to salvage! Maybe the salvaging class ship components could be, at least in part, salvaged from the drone regions. Maybe a combination of drone region and wormhole components are required to build these ships! One thing I don't care for in eve is conformal resources. If you can get anything anywhere, where's the motivation to travel? I think by spreading out exclusive resources to opposite sides of known space and beyond, people will start interacting that otherwise would not have. Stir up the pot CCP! Let's get some salvaging going and make it look sweet by infesting wormhole based ships with rogue drone parts! It might land somewhere between T2 and T3. It would be awesome.

Anas Damona
The Orthography Commandos
Posted - 2009.09.23 06:33:00 - [6]
 

What about the Skiff? 4500 m3 cargo, 15 m3 dronebay, a few mid slots, and +2 warp core strength. Unfortunately only one high slot.

Qolthus
ldiocracy
Posted - 2009.09.25 02:51:00 - [7]
 

This is an awesome idea !!! I think the ship should have lets say 15 total HP with zero resists so I can alpha it in a ibis when you come try to ninja my loot Twisted Evil

Gogela
Freeport Exploration
Posted - 2009.09.26 17:17:00 - [8]
 

The skiff only has one high slot, which would be a problem for time over target. That said, I think low HP isn't a bad idea. It should be a dangerous profession. Just remember though, the ship should have a net advantage over a dictor when all is said and done, with regards to salvage.

Vannogh
Posted - 2009.09.26 17:50:00 - [9]
 

it should also be tagged so a mission runner will not get concodokkened if they attack a professional ninja salvager. Failing that, salvaging someone elses' wreck should result in a security hit or kill rights to push these people out of high-sec space and into low-sec/null-sec where they can pick on people willing/able to defend themselves.

It's annoying enough as it is to be bothered whilst missioning.

Ice Pirateer
Posted - 2009.09.26 17:57:00 - [10]
 

I think the sec status thing is fine right now... if they salvage your wrecks there's little you can do in high sec, but the salvage isn't really worth all that much. In low sec or 0.0 you can just kill them. In high sec if they try to take the loot from the wreck you can kill them. The only thing I would change is maybe a new sec status all together, whereby salvaging puts the salvager in a status that allows you to kill them, but the salvager does not take a sec hit just for salvaging. That way CONCORD doesn't get involved in empire for salvaging matters, but you don't have to just sit there and watch them gobble up all your wrecks. ugh

XIII'th
Posted - 2009.09.26 19:19:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Ice Pirateer
your wrecks. ugh

theese are not your wrecks

nafiy gnaw
Posted - 2009.09.26 20:54:00 - [12]
 

Drones:
Drone Bay 15m3 with bandwidth for 3 small salvaging drones

Look, if salvage drones are introduced into the game, the ninja salvagers will simply go bust.


-narfiy

Julia Venatrix
Posted - 2009.09.27 08:46:00 - [13]
 

I am not sold on your ship design, although I appreciate the nicely formatted introduction.

I think you've misidentified your niche.

A salvage ninja doesn't need a cloak - we're in hisec. We are protected by Concord, not invisibility. What we need is a crappy cheap insurable T1 frigate (cause we do lose them now and again) with bugger-all cargo space (cause salvage doesn't need any), lots of highs, three mids (hack/anal/AB), and no lows - say 4/3/1. Bonuses for scanning and salvaging - 5% each per frigate level. Put a turret on it - nobody will ever use it, but industrials have one, so why not. It doesn't need much grid - 20MW - but the Vigil's 210 CPU is about right (I think).

Your covert salvidictor has other uses - like nullsec/WH exploration. It might even outperform a salvage-fitted 'Cane for looting space, which feels a bit wrong, frankly. But the question of what is needed for an exploration-role ship is a separate (and equally lengthy) discussion.

WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt
Posted - 2009.09.27 09:09:00 - [14]
 

We already have this, it's called a Stabber.

Gogela
Freeport Exploration
Posted - 2009.09.28 02:41:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Gogela on 28/09/2009 03:08:11

Well, let me try to sell you on this than. I know what my niche is, and I think your just playing the ninja game differently. I'm of the opinion that there is no one path to ninjaness, and that one who is strictly a high sec ninja might be interested in the much more lucrative trade of ninja looting best conducted in low and null sec, where the battles are frequent and the loot is worth more.

You do not need a cloak in empire, I totally agree. That said, it is a critical component on my loot/salvage runs in low and null sec, where I and many others prefer to work. I suppose my counter would be is there much going on outside of level III and IV missions that would require MORE than a T1 frig? I assure you, the spoils in low and null sec more than make up for a T2 hull price. It's not a big deal. You can loose a 30 mil ship an hour if you are making over 100 mil an hour in loot. That's not a problem.

The cargo space thing I won't spend to much time on, but again is only true in 1) an empire context and 2) for those not interested in looting as well. I am definitely into rolling the dice and grabbing the loot.

8 highs is better than 4.

This isn't strictly an exploration class ship. What I propose can be used for WH and nul sec plexes, but I'm more focused on the ninja looting aspect of it.

Stabber problems: 2 fewer highs than a dictor, rig slots are med (meaning more isk for salvage rigs), the hull has less agility ad speed out of the box than a dictor. Add this up and you are spending more on fittings and getting a less capable ninja ship with a higher rate of destruction. Cruisers keep poor ninjas poor too.

ArrowBTW - I agree, salvaging someone else's wrecks should give the owner kill rights, but not a global criminal flag.

Bernardo Machiavelli
Posted - 2009.09.28 02:47:00 - [16]
 

I want a dedicated ninja salvage ship YARRRR!!

Satin Slave
Posted - 2009.09.28 21:31:00 - [17]
 

I agree... it's nice that newer players can use a destroyer atm for similar effect, and that they can start getting into expensive stuff like deadspace mods, etc, if a player that totally outclasses them drops some. If I had known about ninja looting when I was just starting out, I could have made enough isk to skip 2 months of grinding easy.

I wonder if some haters aren't just miffed that a new profession has opened up that's available to anyone who wants to do it that lets em compete on close to equal footing in terms of income.

Salvage ship ftw

Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2009.09.29 03:43:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 29/09/2009 03:46:11
Originally by: Satin Slave
I agree... it's nice that newer players can use a destroyer atm for similar effect, and that they can start getting into expensive stuff like deadspace mods, etc, if a player that totally outclasses them drops some. If I had known about ninja looting when I was just starting out, I could have made enough isk to skip 2 months of grinding easy.

I wonder if some haters aren't just miffed that a new profession has opened up that's available to anyone who wants to do it that lets em compete on close to equal footing in terms of income.

Salvage ship ftw


It's not a new prfession. It's actually one of the oldest. Garbage man. Garbage men died out though cause modules weren't worth collecting/stealing, and you can't scan probe wrecks anymore.

The problem is with the new ease of probing down ships, added to the value of salvage, and the ass backward step of concord protecting theft (again) has given rise to new griefing tactics. Garbage men didn't die out when loot cans started flagging. It was very easy to collect lots of loot and avoid getting blown up even when flagged. They died out when they couldn't scan out loot anymore. Salvage would be even easier. It requires almost no hold space.

Maybe salvage should go back to 5 cubic meters per item, or whatever it was before ninja salvaging was possible. That'd slow ninjas down.

Gogela
Freeport Exploration
Posted - 2009.09.30 03:59:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass

It's not a new prfession. It's actually one of the oldest. Garbage man. Garbage men died out though cause modules weren't worth collecting/stealing, and you can't scan probe wrecks anymore.

The problem is with the new ease of probing down ships, added to the value of salvage, and the ass backward step of concord protecting theft (again) has given rise to new griefing tactics. Garbage men didn't die out when loot cans started flagging. It was very easy to collect lots of loot and avoid getting blown up even when flagged. They died out when they couldn't scan out loot anymore. Salvage would be even easier. It requires almost no hold space.

Maybe salvage should go back to 5 cubic meters per item, or whatever it was before ninja salvaging was possible. That'd slow ninjas down.


You totally aren't getting this. I'm trying to enable ninjas and diversify eve by making it a better profession, not hinder them by arbitrarily adjusting stats and rules to make the profession less attractive. Read the thread before posting; no trolling.

Eagle Hawkstrike
M.I.M.M.S
Posted - 2009.09.30 04:10:00 - [20]
 

I don't think we really need a dedicated ship for salvaging, we could and if we did it would probably be best along the lines that you described but i still think of it as a "yes we could have it but don't need it". I commonly play the part of salvager in gang mission nights "doing the clean up job" and i've fitted Minmatar ships to act as my salvage ships, a Thrasher works well for salvaging level 1/level 2 missions if fitted with tractor beams, salvagers, afterburner, cap rechargers and cargo expanders, also rigged with salvage tackles. Also a hurricane fitted with similar stuff deals with level 3/level 4 missions. I'm sure other people have found effective fits on other ships for the same or other salvaging purposes (PVP salvaging). so yes while it would be nice to have a dedicated salvage ship i don't feel we need it.

AsheraII
Posted - 2009.09.30 07:08:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: AsheraII on 30/09/2009 07:12:26
Originally by: Gogela
The cargo space thing I won't spend to much time on, but again is only true in 1) an empire context and 2) for those not interested in looting as well. I am definitely into rolling the dice and grabbing the loot.

Even as a high sec salvager, I more than agree that there SHOULD be plenty of cargo space. By all means, not even half as much as a hauler of similar hull class, but more than a combat vessel within the same class. Not only the salvager needs its niche ship: so does the ninja looter. Combining the two niches into one ship is a very obvious and efficient answer to that.
Edit: a big reason why salvagers generally don't ninja-loot, is that they simply LACK the cargo space. Being flagged is just of second interrest, the major problem is the cargospace.

Lots off high slots are mandatory for a salvager to get the job done quick. This poses a problem though: all these high slots can also be used for weaponry, turning it into a combat vessel again. To ballance this issue, we need some drawbacks: Either include only 2 turret or missile points for the 6-8 high slots, or include some excessive negative bonusses (similar to, but stronger than those that the destroyers have) to the ship regarding weaponry.

Enough low and med slots need to be present to equip an mwd and/or stabilizers OR some shield and armor augmentations. The choice being given to either be able to move out fast, or survive more than a handful of direct hits. A Destroyer focus firing you with all his guns should be problematic with the first salvo already so to speak. Not kill you, but definitely give you reason to either leave or wish you had installed that extra plating and a shieldbooster.

Gogela
Freeport Exploration
Posted - 2009.10.11 16:53:00 - [22]
 

I totally agree with you, AsheraII. I was also thinking the option of having maybe a frigate class offensive system might be a good idea, assuming these are to be destroyer class vessels. This would be just so people have an option of returning fire... just to see what the players do with it. A litte lateral might be good in this ship class, because there are so many styles of ninja out there.

AsheraII
Posted - 2009.10.11 19:57:00 - [23]
 

Crossbreed a Catalyst with a Bantam, and I think we'd be on track. I'm not too sure whether it should be a destroyer hull or a frigate lvl 4 hull though. But there's definitely room for more Destroyer class ships.

Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.10.11 20:07:00 - [24]
 

Very good idea, seems balanced.

I hope it gets implemented.

Raeni Le'sex
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.11.04 13:22:00 - [25]
 

Why 8 high slots?

It should be more like 6 high slots and split those other 2 slots between medium and low. Just adjust the bonuses to take this into account and make this ship better vs an interdictor.

Also another organization could be the servant sisters of eve, they already make the best probe launchers/probes. Why not start making some non-combat non-mining ships.


Gogela
Freeport Exploration
Posted - 2009.11.06 20:31:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Gogela on 06/11/2009 20:36:44
Well it looks like there are salvaging drones in the database and a salvaging drone skill now... that's a hopeful sign. You can see these items in game at www.gogela.com/eve/odd.php as I've linked the items via "showinfo" so you can see the stats.
Quote:
Why 8 high slots? It should be more like 6 high slots and split those other 2 slots between medium and low. Just adjust the bonuses to take this into account and make this ship better vs an interdictor.

Why 8 high slots? Because 7 salvagers and a cloak is better than 5 salvagers and a cloak... and that's what an interdictor has... unless the salvaging bonus for a salvage ship (range, ease of access) is big enough people will otherwise stick with a dictor.

Alicia Yamato
Posted - 2009.11.19 08:09:00 - [27]
 

I'm not a ninja but a mission runner. Due to this fact and due to salvaging wrecks that don't belong to you is dealt with atm I simply don't like them if not to say hate them. The point is that there's almost nothing you can do to stop them from steeling some part of the rewards you get for succeeding in a mission.
YES there should be killrights when they salvage your wrecks in high-sec. But that's not enough in my opinion. It should be like that that you get the killright and of course they should have the right to defend themselfs as long as they don't change ship. Also their mates (corp, alliance or whatever) must not have the right to shoot you in that case. Otherwise CONCORD and/or police should get involved as usual.
The point with that is that if you rightfully attack a ninja in defense of your property you'll shortly face a situation where he's leaving the grid changes ship, brings some mates along and asking you to pay xxx mil ISK for not blowing your ship and podding you.

Mike Voidstar
Posted - 2009.11.19 14:19:00 - [28]
 

I could get behind this idea.

Mordu's Legion seems a good choice for a battlefeild cleaner. For some reason, Sansha's Nation also seems like a good choice---especially for a cloaky one (I'm not sure why, maybe it's just the design of their ships puts me in the mind of sneaky people).

I'm actually not against a Cov-Ops destroyer in general, With a severe lock time bonus or something with the role of hunting other stealth ships, catching them between cloaks.

AsheraII
Posted - 2009.11.19 15:44:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Alicia Yamato
YES there should be killrights when they salvage your wrecks in high-sec. But that's not enough in my opinion. It should be like that that you get the killright and of course they should have the right to defend themselfs as long as they don't change ship. Also their mates (corp, alliance or whatever) must not have the right to shoot you in that case. Otherwise CONCORD and/or police should get involved as usual.
The point with that is that if you rightfully attack a ninja in defense of your property you'll shortly face a situation where he's leaving the grid changes ship, brings some mates along and asking you to pay xxx mil ISK for not blowing your ship and podding you.

Short answer: NO Razz
Long answer: No, there shouldn't. Razz

Dacryphile
Posted - 2009.11.19 15:58:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Dacryphile on 19/11/2009 16:00:59
I would love to see a dedicated loot/salvage ship.

I don't think it needs to necessarily be a dedicated ninja ship though. Give it a 100% bonus to tractor beam range and velocity to make it a more viable MR salvage ship as well. Of course a ninja doesn't need that, but if you are going to make a ship dedicated for salvaging, lets do it right.
Originally by: Alicia Yamato
I'm not a ninja but a mission runner. Due to this fact and due to salvaging wrecks that don't belong to you is dealt with atm I simply don't like them if not to say hate them. blah blah blah and others with the same comments.
A) this thread is about a dedicated salvage ship, not whether or not ninjaing should be flagable. B) CCP has made is very clear on numerous occasions that ninja salvaging is not only valide, but was an intended profession and they aren't going to change it.



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