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baltec1
Posted - 2009.09.24 21:02:00 - [871]
 

Edited by: baltec1 on 24/09/2009 21:03:46
Originally by: Bjron


I think they should use subway on sticks, would work better.



I would bite and with that in mind welcome to page 30

Caldor Mansi
Posted - 2009.09.24 21:04:00 - [872]
 

Edited by: Caldor Mansi on 24/09/2009 21:06:01
Originally by: Bjron


if a person wishes to play with as few as he can, fine, but there needs to be a place for the people who do, and not hopping from corp to corp hiding from war decs and tax.


So, if we are going to go that route of focusing on one type of gameplay, what if CCP is trying to give a nod to the corp people and the people who like to play that way?
The people who think its not right or fair ( note that I dont care ) that some people can sit around in a starter corp and not pay taxes and not get war decd.


What about the people who like to be in corps large and small, and think its un fair to them, that they cant get away with paying 0% tax and have to put up with war decs?

Sure these people can go back to the starter corp, but what if they like having a hand in a player run one?

The story has two sides.

Right now, one side gets away with 0% tax and no war decs against them, the other play style gets no such break, even taking the taxs out of this, they are still not immune to war.


No, story has not 2 sides. Those stories you have just invented in your head. Focusing on one type of gameplay is not only uneccessary but also unhappy move for the game.

If someone joins player corp, there is nothing unfair. It is his choice of free will, agreement between two subjects.
You like it, do it. You don't like it, don't.

And that is what this change is about. It does not make anyone like PC corps. It makes people annoyed only.



Tuscanspeed
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.09.24 21:07:00 - [873]
 

Originally by: Bjron
Originally by: Julian Lynq
Originally by: Bjron
got to page 14


Great. Your making progress.

Sorry but please understand that i am unwilling to rephrase everything from the previous pages only because
you do not manage to read past page 14.

Since you have acknoledged that you are not interested in a serious discussion of this thread and are
only trying to troll, may i then report your subsequentive posts for trolling this thread ?


If you feel the need to report me, go ahead.


I am trying to figure it out, but every time I try, come to the place, this whole thread is about some thing that affects nothing important.


People are upset over 11% tax that really only affects 2-5% of the income of a misson runner in a NPC corp who get to go on every day free from war-decs.

Or, people are upset that this will do nothing and that it is a stupid move?


thats pretty much it.



That's the whole point. This change does nothing except waste dev time and resources.

Things we can all agree is bad given how many other things they could be using their time on.

baltec1
Posted - 2009.09.24 21:09:00 - [874]
 

Originally by: Caldor Mansi


And that is what this change is about. It does not make anyone like PC corps. It makes people annoyed only.





Im not annoyed by this change that patches up the tax loophole my alt has been abusing.

goazer
Amarr
CRICE Corp
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.09.24 21:09:00 - [875]
 

Does the new change include faction warfare militias too?

Serge Bastana
Gallente
GWA Corp
Posted - 2009.09.24 21:11:00 - [876]
 

I think the CCP team should dress as tax collectors at Fan Fest, just to see what happens Very Happy

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.24 21:11:00 - [877]
 

Originally by: goazer
Does the new change include faction warfare militias too?


No it does not

Caldor Mansi
Posted - 2009.09.24 21:13:00 - [878]
 

Originally by: baltec1

Im not annoyed by this change that patches up the tax loophole my alt has been abusing.

What loophole? NPC or 1 man corp makes no difference.

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.24 21:13:00 - [879]
 

Originally by: Serge Bastana
I think the CCP team should dress as tax collectors at Fan Fest, just to see what happens Very Happy


What does a tax collector look like ?

I have never had anyone actually come to my apparment and collect taxes in person

Caldor Mansi
Posted - 2009.09.24 21:19:00 - [880]
 

Edited by: Caldor Mansi on 24/09/2009 21:22:42
Edited by: Caldor Mansi on 24/09/2009 21:20:20
Originally by: Tuscanspeed

That's the whole point. This change does nothing except waste dev time and resources.

Things we can all agree is bad given how many other things they could be using their time on.


It is not this single change but it indicates something rotten in development team if this can go through.

This is not first change we have seen lately that lacks coherence, creativity and some solid reasoning with understanding and addressing the real issue.
The suggested titan changes are made in similarmanner and I dare to say that whole sov revamp bears the same marks...

IVeige
Caldari
IVever.
Posted - 2009.09.24 21:28:00 - [881]
 

Originally by: Bjron
27 pages over play internet money?

WTF?




Wanna bet how many pages for 30 % tax ?????? Laughing

baltec1
Posted - 2009.09.24 21:29:00 - [882]
 

Edited by: baltec1 on 24/09/2009 21:57:09
Edited by: baltec1 on 24/09/2009 21:31:48
Originally by: Caldor Mansi
Originally by: baltec1

Im not annoyed by this change that patches up the tax loophole my alt has been abusing.

What loophole? NPC or 1 man corp makes no difference.



No cost for having concord punch lowlifes in the face with gods fist? I have yet to see an alliance that can deploy that kind of firepower in seconds let alone a corp. The new tax is warrented.

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.24 21:31:00 - [883]
 

Originally by: IVeige
Originally by: Bjron
27 pages over play internet money?

WTF?




Wanna bet how many pages for 30 % tax ?????? Laughing


its not about the amount of tax. 5% 11% 30% 50% 80% doesnīt matter at all. itīs about unintelligent game design.

IVeige
Caldari
IVever.
Posted - 2009.09.24 21:38:00 - [884]
 

Originally by: Julian Lynq
Originally by: IVeige
Originally by: Bjron
27 pages over play internet money?

WTF?




Wanna bet how many pages for 30 % tax ?????? Laughing


its not about the amount of tax. 5% 11% 30% 50% 80% doesnīt matter at all. itīs about unintelligent game design.


Explain why is it unintelligent ?

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.24 21:39:00 - [885]
 

Originally by: IVeige
Originally by: Julian Lynq
Originally by: IVeige
Originally by: Bjron
27 pages over play internet money?

WTF?




Wanna bet how many pages for 30 % tax ?????? Laughing


its not about the amount of tax. 5% 11% 30% 50% 80% doesnīt matter at all. itīs about unintelligent game design.


Explain why is it unintelligent ?


read the thread.

goazer
Amarr
CRICE Corp
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.09.24 21:49:00 - [886]
 

Originally by: Julian Lynq
Originally by: goazer
Does the new change include faction warfare militias too?


No it does not
Perfect.

There is no risk to be ganked by enemy militias in your high sec areas. All mission alts just will join FW militias.

Tuscanspeed
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.09.24 21:53:00 - [887]
 

Originally by: Julian Lynq
Originally by: goazer
Does the new change include faction warfare militias too?


No it does not


So it's not "ALL" NPC corps, just "SOME"?


oooooo k. That makes sense.

Bjron
Posted - 2009.09.24 21:53:00 - [888]
 




No, story has not 2 sides. Those stories you have just invented in your head. Focusing on one type of gameplay is not only uneccessary but also unhappy move for the game.

If someone joins player corp, there is nothing unfair. It is his choice of free will, agreement between two subjects.
You like it, do it. You don't like it, don't.

And that is what this change is about. It does not make anyone like PC corps. It makes people annoyed only.





On one had you have people immune to war, and under concord insta help, free from taxes.
These people stay in the NPC corp for this very reason, no taxes and no wars.

Nothing about the tax is unfair, dont like it, free will your way into a different corp with less or no taxes.

It does not annoy me, its fine, It might not change a lot, but I dont care if the tax is there or not.

11% is a fair price to pay for war immuinty and concord help.

But, what about the people in the PC? Hmm, if we take taxes out of this, or say taxes are equal, then what about war immune?
They are not war immune.


This will not hurt a new player as the tax is not applyed to small mission rewards or bountys.
This tax will hardly scratch the mission runner who loots and salvages.

So whay complain about it, if CCP wants to do it, they will, going on and on in this thread will not stop it.


Did you ever stop to think that CCP has a larger plan that you cant see?

Yokohead
Intergalactic Hunters of ManBearPig
Daisho Syndicate
Posted - 2009.09.24 21:54:00 - [889]
 

Hahaha I can't believe this has hit 30 bloody pages.

baltec1
Posted - 2009.09.24 21:54:00 - [890]
 

Originally by: goazer
Originally by: Julian Lynq
Originally by: goazer
Does the new change include faction warfare militias too?


No it does not
Perfect.

There is no risk to be ganked by enemy militias in your high sec areas. All mission alts just will join FW militias.


I attacked in gal high sec when in the squid navy. Seems a geddon can get into a belt, pop a hauler and mining barge and get out before the navy can deal with me. Then there was the mass caracal fleetsTwisted Evil

Harisdrop
Gallente
Vindicate and Deliverance
Posted - 2009.09.24 22:15:00 - [891]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: goazer
Originally by: Julian Lynq
Originally by: goazer
Does the new change include faction warfare militias too?


No it does not
Perfect.

There is no risk to be ganked by enemy militias in your high sec areas. All mission alts just will join FW militias.


I attacked in gal high sec when in the squid navy. Seems a geddon can get into a belt, pop a hauler and mining barge and get out before the navy can deal with me. Then there was the mass caracal fleetsTwisted Evil


Hey lets save these posts until after the expansion. We cant ruin the FW npc corps fun can we. I love CCP and the person that brought this out about tax is great.



Ashina Sito
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.09.24 22:23:00 - [892]
 

Originally by: Bjron


11% is a fair price to pay for war immuinty and concord help.




CONCORD helps pilots in PC as well as NPC corps so that half of the argument fails.

Ashina did not have war immunity when she is fighting in low/0.0 sec space. considering I spend about half, or more, of my time in 0.0 the whole war dec immunity does not apply. If you want to shoot me come and get me in 0.0.

I just finished running a 10/10 site in 0.0. Did it was a number of other people... all members of CAS. We had intended to jump the local Alliance pilots that were scanning it out but they left and we were stuck running the site ourselves. Had 2 fleets move thought the system, 79 pilots in one, 47 in the other. We completed the site without getting shot at by the PC's that came though. Were we Immune? I think not. After this patch would we all be assessed a 11% tax on the bounties, yes we would. All with No CONCORD and freely available to be shot at by anyone who wishes. Why am I still paying tax?

baltec1
Posted - 2009.09.24 22:29:00 - [893]
 

Originally by: Ashina Sito
Originally by: Bjron


11% is a fair price to pay for war immuinty and concord help.




CONCORD helps pilots in PC as well as NPC corps so that half of the argument fails.

Ashina did not have war immunity when she is fighting in low/0.0 sec space. considering I spend about half, or more, of my time in 0.0 the whole war dec immunity does not apply. If you want to shoot me come and get me in 0.0.

I just finished running a 10/10 site in 0.0. Did it was a number of other people... all members of CAS. We had intended to jump the local Alliance pilots that were scanning it out but they left and we were stuck running the site ourselves. Had 2 fleets move thought the system, 79 pilots in one, 47 in the other. We completed the site without getting shot at by the PC's that came though. Were we Immune? I think not. After this patch would we all be assessed a 11% tax on the bounties, yes we would. All with No CONCORD and freely available to be shot at by anyone who wishes. Why am I still paying tax?


So you dont ever get a war dec in high sec which would prove problematic for those people who only ever stay in high sec and dont take the risks you do. Quite honestly your the kind of carebear I like, you can adapt, and I have no doubt you will adapt to this.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.09.24 22:50:00 - [894]
 

Originally by: Ashina Sito
Originally by: Bjron


11% is a fair price to pay for war immuinty and concord help.




CONCORD helps pilots in PC as well as NPC corps so that half of the argument fails.

Ashina did not have war immunity when she is fighting in low/0.0 sec space. considering I spend about half, or more, of my time in 0.0 the whole war dec immunity does not apply. If you want to shoot me come and get me in 0.0.

I just finished running a 10/10 site in 0.0. Did it was a number of other people... all members of CAS. We had intended to jump the local Alliance pilots that were scanning it out but they left and we were stuck running the site ourselves. Had 2 fleets move thought the system, 79 pilots in one, 47 in the other. We completed the site without getting shot at by the PC's that came though. Were we Immune? I think not. After this patch would we all be assessed a 11% tax on the bounties, yes we would. All with No CONCORD and freely available to be shot at by anyone who wishes. Why am I still paying tax?


Because you work for The Man and play by his rules?


Ms Iustitia
Posted - 2009.09.24 23:05:00 - [895]
 

Originally by: Julian Lynq
Not every corp charges 11% tax. Some charge more, some charge less, some donīt charge any at all.

There are alot unique advantages of being in a player corporation (which is the reason that many people are).

Additionally we are allready proposing ideas to make player corporations even more attractive
in an attempt to show ccp means of gamedesign practices that use carrots instead of sticks.


i think there's a bunch of reasons why some players don't want to get involve with player corporations, and amongst those reasons, let's take away moneymaking alts of pvp players...

1) some peeps just don't trust anyone, yet they enjoy playing EVE, so NPC Corps is a haven.
2) some peeps don't have the time (RL sense) to commit to a player corp, they don't want to be a "stagnant luggage" to any corp, so they sit in NPC Corps, despite sacrificing to things they want to do in EVE.
3) some folks just want to shoot at spaceships and have simple fun, the not hardcore gamer types, they want fun without the stress that accompanies being in a player corp.
4) some folks are edging towards EVE's PVP content, but they think they should first establish themselves with the resources to sustain doing PVP, these folks are typically the ones with only 1 account on EVE.

all 4 types have one thing in common, they do missions for the most part, or dubbed as mission runners. the 11% taxation towards NPC corps is acceptable (i think) to this types of gamers, but the reasons behind it seems not so.

with respect to CCP, IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO SAMPLE EVERY CONTENT EVE OFFERS TO ENJOY THE GAME because not all players of EVE are hardcore gamers, some is satisfied and loves the game even if they have sampled a miniscule portion of EVE's content.

this issue is not about the tax, nor it be PVP against "carebears", the issue is about CCP choosing a path for everyone to a game they say as multi-faceted.

Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp
Not Found.
Posted - 2009.09.24 23:42:00 - [896]
 

Edited by: Sky Marshal on 24/09/2009 23:44:12
Originally by: Bjron
11% is a fair price to pay for war immuinty and concord help.

But, what about the people in the PC? Hmm, if we take taxes out of this, or say taxes are equal, then what about war immune?
They are not war immune.


. . .

30 pages on this topic to return to the beginning... When will you read the thread ?

Also, you seem deliberately omit that NPC Corp has also some disadvantages that PC Corp don't have, and pay a tax in PC Corp means sometimes some player added advantages : Linkage

There is already some balance. Wardec immunity, OK, but to pay that, you will NOT have POS, etc. as the link states.

baltec1
Posted - 2009.09.24 23:48:00 - [897]
 

Originally by: Sky Marshal
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 24/09/2009 23:44:12
Originally by: Bjron
11% is a fair price to pay for war immuinty and concord help.

But, what about the people in the PC? Hmm, if we take taxes out of this, or say taxes are equal, then what about war immune?
They are not war immune.


. . .

30 pages on this topic to return to the beginning... When will you read the thread ?

Also, you seem deliberately omit that NPC Corp has also some disadvantages that PC Corp don't have, and pay a tax in PC Corp means sometimes some player added advantages : Linkage

There is already some balance. Wardec immunity, OK, but to pay that, you will NOT have POS, etc. as the link states.


It takes a great deal of effort to get a pos onto a high sec moon and even then, a war dec can mean the end of it. 11% tax on mission payouts and bounties seems a good deal for not having to deal with wars.

Serge Bastana
Gallente
GWA Corp
Posted - 2009.09.24 23:56:00 - [898]
 

Originally by: Julian Lynq
Originally by: Serge Bastana
I think the CCP team should dress as tax collectors at Fan Fest, just to see what happens Very Happy


What does a tax collector look like ?

I have never had anyone actually come to my apparment and collect taxes in person


Use your imagination, and just cos you haven't seen one doesn't mean they don't exist, just like Bigfoot Razz

Gorefacer
Caldari
Resurrection
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2009.09.25 00:07:00 - [899]
 

Originally by: Julian Lynq
Edited by: Julian Lynq on 20/09/2009 15:28:59

I am saying ccp indentified a problem in that many people stay in npc corporations and do not join player corporations and thus do not socially interact with each other.

Ccp then came up with a "solution" to the "problem". However the solution they come up with is a bad one because infact it does not solve the "problem" at all. It will not make more people join player corporations and interact with each other. and yes, when i say player-corporations, that is real corporations not 1 man zombie ones.


CCP wishes the game to have a certain balance, pros and cons for different choices as well as general risks vs reward for varying paths taken in the game.

After this change, people currently in NPC corps will mostly do one of 3 things:

- Stay in NPC corp. Many will either not care enough about the effective 3-5% tax on their mission earnings and just stay where they are. These people are now paying a small amount for the convenience of not having to deal with player run corporations and the potential wardecs that come with it. While the tax is small it results in some sort of payment for the services of the NPC corp and so the players in this group are more in balance with what CCP would like to see in their game.

- Create 1 man corps for tax dodging purposes. These people now have to put SOME thought into weighing their options of what to do and where to go. Most will create the 1man corp, never be wardecced and go about their merry way much like they are now (no LOSS to CCP due to the NPC tax). Some will create their corp and perhaps run a few missions with someone and realize they now run their own corp that they can invite people to join. Worst case scenario here is that people put miniscule effort into keeping the status quo with the possibility that it might lead to a direction CCP would like to see their players go in.

- Join a player corp. Obvious stated goal of CCP. When this happens (as rare as it may be) the players get to experience another level of EVE gameplay and can always go back to NPC or 1 man corps if it doesn't suit them.

In all 3 situations there is nothing lost and something potentially gained towards an EVE that CCP envisions. In what way does the "solution" as you call it that is being introduced qualify as a "bad one"?

MightyRhinox
Minmatar
Rhinox Heavy Industries
Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.25 00:23:00 - [900]
 

Originally by: Ashina Sito
Originally by: Bjron


11% is a fair price to pay for war immuinty and concord help.




CONCORD helps pilots in PC as well as NPC corps so that half of the argument fails.

Ashina did not have war immunity when she is fighting in low/0.0 sec space. considering I spend about half, or more, of my time in 0.0 the whole war dec immunity does not apply. If you want to shoot me come and get me in 0.0.

I just finished running a 10/10 site in 0.0. Did it was a number of other people... all members of CAS. We had intended to jump the local Alliance pilots that were scanning it out but they left and we were stuck running the site ourselves. Had 2 fleets move thought the system, 79 pilots in one, 47 in the other. We completed the site without getting shot at by the PC's that came though. Were we Immune? I think not. After this patch would we all be assessed a 11% tax on the bounties, yes we would. All with No CONCORD and freely available to be shot at by anyone who wishes. Why am I still paying tax?


Why are you still in an NPC corp? It makes no difference to you as it is, so you may as well put a corp together and charge yourselves 0% tax.


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