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blankseplocked Undocumented Change ? NPC CORP TAX: 11% ?
 
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2009.09.19 17:24:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 19/09/2009 17:23:54
Originally by: feminakitten

Oh and yes I joined a good group of people who had a young and growing corp and they were griefed constantly by a pirate mercenary corp until they folded.


Solutions:
(a) Pay NPC tax.
OR
(b) Join a corp which is not fail!

Seriously, with all the claims that "omg, ebil wardeccers"... well, how about *tada* joining a high-sec corp which is able to protect its assets? It took me only a month or two to find (actually, they found me) a corp which actually did fight back in wars, even if most of us weren't very pro (we did have some skilled members / FCs though), and that was actually, you know, fun. Even as a nub with laughable skills.

Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2009.09.19 17:39:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: LifeLines
Originally by: Caldor Mansi
What's the point?

People will just make 1 man corps...


atleast we can war dec them that way :S

and war dec costs should go down by A LOT


Meh, I will setup 100 corps with a 1% tax rate, they can just jump from one corp to the other. Knock yourself out with the wardecs. ;)

Chris Reiter
Posted - 2009.09.19 17:39:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Edited by: CCP Eris Discordia on 19/09/2009 13:22:14
It's not in the sisi patch notes because I don't know how to edit them, I think I have to mail them to someone who has access to it and then it is edited in. This hsn't been properly set up yet but for the next sisi update I think there will be more and more accurate notes ( at least from me)

It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basisWink


Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average.


Fine, tax newb corps. In the same regards, nerf "unsanctioned" gank attacks by removing insurance payout, it was talked about but never implemented. If I am paying for protection to CONCORD, I sure as hell better see pirates take it in the ass of their wallet if I am taking it as well. If my missioning is taxed to hurt my income, then high sec antics better start hurting griefers/pirates as well.

I dislike 99.9% of the playerbase of EVE with their smack talking, **** waving, and leg humping to get a usless kill mail. I am not interested in politics or listening to people give me orders. My monthly subscription is not worth extended training with no implants or a 2 million isk wardec, I would sooner quit and player windows solitare then worry about someone who can't stand against a null sec alliance but comes into highsec to take out carebears so they can feel good while stroking their e-peen.

Dungheap
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.09.19 17:39:00 - [94]
 

i have seen posters imply the tax is only on mission income. corp tax is on all income, except contracts.

again, ccp forget the carrot and stick thwory. this will be as successful as their plans to populate lo-sec.

and laughs at the pvp groupies who think they're cracking open a golden egg. you should drop an alt into caldari-provisions chat. there's some sick people in here, i'm telling you, you don't know what you're getting into. Laughing

Laruant Wiggins
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.19 17:43:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Edited by: CCP Eris Discordia on 19/09/2009 13:22:14
It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation



What happened to the sandbox?
An isk sink is fine, to encorage a certain outcome is what I have a problem with.

(I don't really care, already in a player corp with 0% tax)

Rick Skynight
Posted - 2009.09.19 17:44:00 - [96]
 

Personally for me its just a matter of principle. Its not like CCP is nerfing my torpedos or how fast my hurricane flies anymore. They are now actually nerfing where people live in the game. <-- That is a big deal.

There is another game that tried this very same idea of telling people how to start playing their game and managing their character. I wont give the name since I've noticed in the past CCP doesnt appreciate other mmos being mentioned, but the initials are SWG. They pushed and pushed to mold players the way they want to the breaking point. They went from being in the top 90% of mmos to the mid 70% range now in popularity. People don't pay subscriptions for games they stop playing.

Im not saying this tax increase will make people quit, but its little things like this that add up over time that make people stop and say "Why am I paying you again? I thought I had freedom to do whatever I wanted."

Like with other things ccp has tried in the past, this tax increase wont get their desired affect. They say its encouragement, some of us say its punishment. Either way the isk isnt a big deal, its still about the principle.

Nyota Sol
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.09.19 17:45:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Lord Delacroix
Edited by: Lord Delacroix on 19/09/2009 16:50:17
wat

mission runners are the people who create new ISK in the game
what will happen is just that prices will deflate by around 11% to match the reduced money supply, no real harm for anyone but people who currently hold a lot of illiquid assets.


it would deflate by a lot more than that.

consider all the deactivated accounts, too... (and im not talking just spacedork rage quitting)

the secondary and unanticipated changes should make CCP think very seriously about implementing such a petty ideological game design change. i see nothing good actually obtained by such a tax (beyond the "lawl screw you mission runners" types of arguments). whereas there is a lot to be lost including actual players and economic activity.

Gottii
Minmatar
Lutinari Syndicate
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.09.19 17:46:00 - [98]
 

Im humbly submit that this should be known as the "Death (in game) or Taxes" nerf...

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.09.19 17:51:00 - [99]
 

11% is NOT ENOUGH

If the average corp has 8% or so, then 3% for perfect protection from wars is really nothing. Such a protection should cost more.

I suggest AT LEAST 15% npc tax.

Kathryn Dougans
Amarr
Posted - 2009.09.19 17:52:00 - [100]
 

Militia corps don't have tax. This is good, since although they can't be wardecced, they can be engaged by the opposition.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.19 17:53:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 17:55:00
It's funny to see people trying to make mountains out of molehills Laughing

This change will have next to no effect....

For people in NPC corp:
Miners will feel next to no change.
Explores might get a slight decrease in income.
Traders will see no change.
Builders will see no change.
Inventors will see no change.
Mission runners will have a marginal (<5% probably) drop in income.

....Mission runners already earn 3-4x as much as miners.....

So the only ones affected are mission runners, who make 1/2-2/3 of their income off NON-TAXABLE stuff anyway (LP, loot, salvage).

Seriously, the sky is NOT falling! Stop panicking (though it is funny to watch)...

PostWithYourAlt
Posted - 2009.09.19 17:57:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Laruant Wiggins

What happened to the sandbox?


The Sandbox Is a Lie.

Nyota Sol
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.09.19 17:57:00 - [103]
 

Edited by: Nyota Sol on 19/09/2009 17:58:51
Originally by: Kerfira
It's funny to see people trying to make mountains out of molehills Laughing

This change will have next to no effect....

For people in NPC corp:
Miners will feel next to no change.
Explores might get a slight decrease in income.
Traders will see no change.
Builders will see no change.
Inventors will see no change.
Mission runners will have a marginal (<5% probably) drop in income.

....Mission runners already earn 3-4x as much as miners.....

Seriously, the sky is NOT falling! Stop panicking (though it is funny to watch)...


No change my butt.

Instead of taking an ideological position and then only seeing what you want to see, consider all the significant possible impact and ripple effects.

CCP wants more people to join player corps. GREAT. Their fantasy solution is absolutely horrible. It's a classic example of twisted social engineering by design.

It will NOT accomplish their intended goal. People stay in npc corps for very good reasons. And some of those reasons are defensible. This is supposed to be a "sandbox" game, but CCP is showing that this is more of a marketing slogan than a real development principle.

Obviously eve would survive, but it WOULD have less subscribers... and arguing about 11% vs 15% vs 20% would be to miss the point. MMO developers should NEVER make changes of this MAGNITUDE unless it's very important... and yes, cutting income by 11% or more is very large for empire players.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.19 18:00:00 - [104]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 18:00:21
Originally by: Nyota Sol
Obviously eve would survive, but it WOULD have less subscribers...

To repeat!

Do you know how many times this argument has been made when CCP propose changes? Probably EVERY single time!

Do you know how many times it has resulted in any noticeable decrease in players? ZERO! ZILCH! NADA! NONE!

Throwing that old, outworn threat around just makes you look utterly silly!

You really should make making mountains out of molehills into your real-life occupation. You have a definite flair for it Laughing

ElanMorin6
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2009.09.19 18:03:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Laruant Wiggins


What happened to the sandbox?



Neighboorhood cats had been using it as a litterbox, so your sand is being replaced and several minor structural problems in the box are being repaired while it's empty.

Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2009.09.19 18:09:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia

It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basisWink

Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average.



I can understand the desire to make it more attractive to get people to prefer player corps, but that should be because player corps provide great benefits rather than just penalize the **** out of noobcorps. If there was something interesting to do in Empire that required more than one person then a player corp would be a huge attraction, but there is zero content of that kind in empire.

Rick Skynight
Posted - 2009.09.19 18:10:00 - [107]
 

CCP here is a better idea to the tax one your brainstorm team thought of.

Let the NPC corps wardec each other. That way they are playing with and doing combat with people around their own skill level. This would be a more effective way to encourage people to join a player corp.

As for people of my age in the npc corp, it will give us a chance to legally wipe out isk-farming / isk-selling hulks.

There, two birds killed with one antimatter charge.

Quinn Foute
Posted - 2009.09.19 18:10:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Veldya
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia

It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basisWink

Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average.



I can understand the desire to make it more attractive to get people to prefer player corps, but that should be because player corps provide great benefits rather than just penalize the **** out of noobcorps. If there was something interesting to do in Empire that required more than one person then a player corp would be a huge attraction, but there is zero content of that kind in empire.


Yes there is:Wormholes

Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2009.09.19 18:25:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 19/09/2009 17:23:54
Originally by: feminakitten

Oh and yes I joined a good group of people who had a young and growing corp and they were griefed constantly by a pirate mercenary corp until they folded.


Solutions:
(a) Pay NPC tax.
OR
(b) Join a corp which is not fail!

Seriously, with all the claims that "omg, ebil wardeccers"... well, how about *tada* joining a high-sec corp which is able to protect its assets? It took me only a month or two to find (actually, they found me) a corp which actually did fight back in wars, even if most of us weren't very pro (we did have some skilled members / FCs though), and that was actually, you know, fun. Even as a nub with laughable skills.



Wardeccers are not the problem, in my experience most are cowards that only prey on the weak. Get 30-40 people in PvP fits and they are the ones hiding in stations.

The problem is the element of trust required when you get to player corps. Most of the more serious loss, especially to newer players, come from betrayal from within a player corp because it is no-risk to shoot at your own corpmate.

It is one thing to fly around in your 30m PvP ship, some mission runners are flying in 10b ships, I'd pop my own corp mate for a slice of that. Razz

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
DarkSide.
Posted - 2009.09.19 18:30:00 - [110]
 

Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 19/09/2009 18:32:44


Looking forward to see more changes in this evidently right direction.

11% is merely a first step.

You'd need to:

- implement a higher progressive tax covering those who have been playing few years while still hanging in the newbie-dungeons NPC corps. So it's 11% right from the start and up to 90% if you're 2 years old vet.

- prohibit lvl 4/5 missions for those in NPC corps.

- prohibit the use of certain ship types for said people. Like Hulks, Navy battleships, Marauders, etc.

- make at least 14 days timer for corp swapping. No need to say this is to prevent farmers from abusing current wardec mechanics.

Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2009.09.19 18:31:00 - [111]
 

Edited by: Veldya on 19/09/2009 18:39:47
Originally by: Quinn Foute


Yes there is:Wormholes


That isn't Empire, Dufus. You see Concord flying around in wormholes?

PostWithYourAlt
Posted - 2009.09.19 18:37:00 - [112]
 

You can not force peopl into socially interacting with each other if they dont wan´t to.
Regardless of how much you nerf something or buff something else.

Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2009.09.19 18:38:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Fon Revedhort
Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 19/09/2009 18:32:44

Looking forward to see more changes in this evidently right direction.

11% is merely a first step.

You'd need to:

- implement a higher progressive tax covering those who have been playing few years while still hanging in the newbie-dungeons NPC corps. So it's 11% right from the start and up to 90% if you're 2 years old vet.

- prohibit lvl 4/5 missions for those in NPC corps.

- prohibit the use of certain ship types for said people. Like Hulks, Navy battleships, Marauders, etc.

- make at least 14 days timer for corp swapping. No need to say this is to prevent farmers from abusing current wardec mechanics.


lol you don't need to bother with all that garbage, 10% tax will be enough to turn the npc corps into ghost corps with just the aimless noobs left in them.

It wont change anything though, other than people setting up more useless disposable 0% tax corps.

If people can't play the game the way they want to play it then they will stop playing, they wont play it the way you want them to play it, all it will achieve is a loss of subscribers for CCP.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.19 18:40:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Fon Revedhort
Looking forward to see more changes in this evidently right direction.

11% is merely a first step.

You'd need to:

- implement a higher progressive tax covering those who have been playing few years while still hanging in the newbie-dungeons NPC corps. So it's 11% right from the start and up to 90% if you're 2 years old vet.

- prohibit lvl 4/5 missions for those in NPC corps.

- prohibit the use of certain ship types for said people. Like Hulks, Navy battleships, Marauders, etc.

- make at least 14 days timer for corp swapping. No need to say this is to prevent farmers from abusing current wardec mechanics.

It'll never happen!

For better or worse, the largest part of players are in noob corp!

That means that the largest part of CCP's income come from players in noob corp..... With me so far?
That also means that income come from people who for one reason or another LIKE to be in noob corp.... Still with me?

So, CCP can put a few restrictions, but not the extreme you suggest because then they might lose a major chunk of their income.

With todays EVE playerbase, there HAS to be content which is relatively similar to todays for players who don't like to participate in the PvP game that is also EVE.

Since they bring income to the game too, they can't just be ignored. That is why your suggestion is as unrealistic as moving L4's to low-sec. Neither will ever happen (at least not without providing something similarly juicy to that majority of players).

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.09.19 19:09:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Mia Morningstar

I didn't get taxed for killing 15k frigate nor 65k cruiser but I got taxed for killing a 160k BC... in BELT

also

I didn't get taxed 88k isk time bonus reward but got taxed 712k isk time bonus reward

All of this was in losec

bleh, now I'm not sure Embarassed


I believe there is a limit on minimal tax fee.

Also the taxes will be deduced as cummulative payment similar to bounties.




Mikayla Grey
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.19 19:16:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Fon Revedhort
Looking forward to see more changes in this evidently right direction.

11% is merely a first step.

You'd need to:

- implement a higher progressive tax covering those who have been playing few years while still hanging in the newbie-dungeons NPC corps. So it's 11% right from the start and up to 90% if you're 2 years old vet.

- prohibit lvl 4/5 missions for those in NPC corps.

- prohibit the use of certain ship types for said people. Like Hulks, Navy battleships, Marauders, etc.

- make at least 14 days timer for corp swapping. No need to say this is to prevent farmers from abusing current wardec mechanics.

It'll never happen!

For better or worse, the largest part of players are in noob corp!

That means that the largest part of CCP's income come from players in noob corp..... With me so far?
That also means that income come from people who for one reason or another LIKE to be in noob corp.... Still with me?

So, CCP can put a few restrictions, but not the extreme you suggest because then they might lose a major chunk of their income.

With todays EVE playerbase, there HAS to be content which is relatively similar to todays for players who don't like to participate in the PvP game that is also EVE.

Since they bring income to the game too, they can't just be ignored. That is why your suggestion is as unrealistic as moving L4's to low-sec. Neither will ever happen (at least not without providing something similarly juicy to that majority of players).



If you stay in a noobcorp you really dont have any expenses anyway, so would a small tax on missions be a problem.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.19 19:23:00 - [117]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 19:26:27
Originally by: Mikayla Grey
If you stay in a noobcorp you really dont have any expenses anyway, so would a small tax on missions be a problem.

I'm not arguing it is Razz

What I'm arguing is that this tax is such a minuscule thing that it's not even worth arguing about Laughing
...and of.c. that if CCP implemented something that DID impinge on a lot of players fun, like the post I replied to, then it wouldn't get implemented...

Andra Zeit
Posted - 2009.09.19 19:34:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia

It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation


If this are realy Your wishes, move wars into Lowsec. Than Carebears have no reason to stay in npc Corps, You can higher taxes to 150000% and all Carebaers are in Playercorps and happy.
And happy customers is, what CCP needs ;)

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.19 19:36:00 - [119]
 

So our pro pvp'ers who stick to wardeccing high sec rookie corporations and camping stations they are in with BS with neutral guardian support needed some help in their tough life?

Because low sec where you can just shoot everyone is scary, with other people also looking to shoot you, imagine how scary that is.

If player corporations would add something that a NPC corporation doesnt do those people would move to player corporations, but the player corporations dont, the problem is with them, not with NPC corporations.

Change wardecs from pay to grief (yes paying 2M to get a week of free shooting on a group rookies is paying to grief) to something useful before doing stuff like this.

HIBillyMaysHere
Posted - 2009.09.19 19:39:00 - [120]
 

If anything, it should be higher. The people in the NPC corps are getting an advantage that no other players in eve get, which is complete immunity from wardecs. They should pay for this advantage, and 11% is quite low. If anything that level of safety should be worth 30-40% tax, IMO.

The other reason for making the tax 30-40% is that keeping the NPC tax about even to average corporate tax just makes NPC's about the same as far as attractiveness goes to the player. Instead of having a tax advantage and a safety advantage, now they only have a safety advantage. If we really want to encourage them to join another (real) corp, we need to make the tax much higher than the average corp's tax rate to make them that more attractive.


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