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Comodore John
Gallente
Trixi IFI
Posted - 2009.09.19 15:35:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: syphurous
Of course, some of you haven't realized that the 80,000 new 1 man corps are going to need to have an office, and this is only going to push up the rental cost you all currently pay for yours now.


after dominion, we wont need offices, well be able to apply to any corp from any station

Kimi
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.09.19 15:36:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: LifeLines
Originally by: Caldor Mansi
What's the point?

People will just make 1 man corps...


atleast we can war dec them that way :S

and war dec costs should go down by A LOT


No, wardec costs should go UP, a LOT.

Make wardec costs inverserly proportional to the member count of each corp. If a 500 member corp wardecs a 1 man corp, it costs them 500 million. If a 50 man corp wardecs another 50 man corp it costs them 50K.

That would also encourage those inflated member-count corps to finally purge all those members that have not logged on since July 2003.

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.09.19 15:37:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Mia Morningstar
This change is a joke.

The tax affects: Mission reward (less than 10% from total lvl4 mission income)

The tax doesn't affect: Time bonus reward, LPs, Belt rat bounty, mission rat bounty? (CBA to count), Amount of salvage/loot?

So the 11% tax from mission reward is very cheap cost in exchange for war immunity.


With current mechanics, corp tax affects:
Bounties
Mission rewards
Mission time bonus rewards

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.09.19 15:37:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Mia Morningstar
This change is a joke.

The tax affects: Mission reward (less than 10% from total lvl4 mission income)

The tax doesn't affect: Time bonus reward, LPs, Belt rat bounty, mission rat bounty? (CBA to count), Amount of salvage/loot?

So the 11% tax from mission reward is very cheap cost in exchange for war immunity.


Tax affects every monetary part of mission. So rat bounty too. And probably time bonus reward (not 100% sure on this one). Tax doesnt affect LPs, never did not even in player corps. Same for salvage etc.

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.09.19 15:40:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Zartanic on 19/09/2009 15:44:59
Edited by: Zartanic on 19/09/2009 15:42:40
As a carebear who who thinks PVP is crucial to this game in all its aspects I can't see this change making the slightest bit of difference, it just balances out tax:

1. Mining corps...no difference, they stay in npc corp.

2. PVE mission corps - a bit but they would pay anyway in a player corp and the losses are much higher if war decced in ISK and time lost so 11% is peanuts, especially as its not on all mission income anyway.

3. Bots - so they lose a bit but not if mining.

They should do 50% or not bother. Or maybe have a daily tax on ISK balance with a lower cap. This change has nothing to do with PVP in my opinion. That won't stop some carebears crying though.

IF CCP want to encourage PVP they need to stop these negative type fixes, they never work and all they do is annoy players. Encouraging people to PVP is much smarter. Give them a reason to beyond the Euro think of tax tax tax.

Mia Morningstar
Posted - 2009.09.19 15:42:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Mia Morningstar on 19/09/2009 16:29:34
Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 15:29:59

Tax is applied to mission rewards and bounties. Nothing else IMHO.



On SISI, my BELT rat bounties (random lowsec belt not in mission) weren't taxed nor time bonus rewards (I was in npc corp)

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

Tax affects every monetary part of mission. So rat bounty too. And probably time bonus reward (not 100% sure on this one). Tax doesnt affect LPs, never did not even in player corps. Same for salvage etc.

Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
Posted - 2009.09.19 15:49:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
ISK income from missions is 31% of the total you can earn. The rest comes from LP, loot and salvage.

This means that for a mission runner, the 11% will actually be an effective tax of 3.41%.



Yup. Less shooting more looting and salvaging because that is where the the tiny fun in missioning is. Or getting to know the inner workings of corp hopping and wardeccing. All other carebearing outside missions still done in NPC corps. It sounded good - at first glance. At second glance it just makes EvE more bothersome if you stay or not.

Urgg Boolean
Posted - 2009.09.19 15:50:00 - [68]
 

Taxes suck azz. Why should we be encouraged to join a player corp? I find many corps are filled with objectionable politics and sociopathic nerds that I do not want to know or interact with. One man corp is not an answer either due to Wardecs.

For those of you who say "players must pay for a "safe" hi sec experience". I say, we already do : $15/month sub fee.

My experiences in 0.0 have introduced me to players who are not only sociopathic, but psychopaths who spew the sickest form of dialog that I have only seen matched by my most violent patients (I am a psych nurse IRL). Some in 0.0 are fun folks and you can PvP, get ganked, pwned, or whatever, and have some laughs. But many are sick individuals whom I don't want to know, or more precisely, are people who exhibit behavior and language very similar to those I get paid to provide care for. I could write a Master's thesis on how in-game sociopathic/psychopathic behavior translates to real life dysfunction, but that is enough said for the current topic.

The kicker for me is that the specified direction for Dominion is to "encourage" us to have more interaction with player corps and to inhabit 0.0.

Well, I have a very pragmatic attitude about it all. There are a couple of space based games with release dates as yet unspecified. There are many existing factors that are in the negative column for EVE, including a horrible interface, buggy/flaky code in general, years to build skills - the list is huge actually). But I like the spaceships and the pewpew, and have substantial time invested, have made good friends (plus column). When the list of negatives is big enough, and a viable alternative is available, I'll check it out seriously to see if said alternative(s) better match my play style. Or on a slightly different view, I'll seek alternatives that allow me to play the way I want, rather than being "encouraged" in directions that I have no interest in.

Gavin DeVries
Posted - 2009.09.19 15:51:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 15:29:59
Originally by: feminakitten
Yep this will be good now all us miners and carebears can either pay up 11% or join corps that can be wardecced by very experienced pvp players....

You do know that miners will not pay a single ISK in tax?
(apart from tax on bounties on the occasional rat you kill)

Tax is applied to mission rewards and bounties. Nothing else IMHO.



Miners already pay a 5% tax (of the minerals) on refining, reduced if they have standing the corporation owning the station. How does one get standing with the corporation? Running missions, which will be taxed at 11% for the duration of the standing grind. Besides, mining is lower income than missioning, at least with the level 3-4 missions.

Personally, I'm in favor of it. I understand the reasons people might want to stay in NPC corps, and I don't really think this should apply to new characters or to faction militia corps (they can already be freely engaged by players in opposing militias, so they're permanently at war). I think 20% is more appropriate. Perhaps with "licensing fees" for large ships, like battleships or freighters, as wel. Twisted Evil

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.19 15:59:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Mia Morningstar
On SISI, my BELT rat bounties (random lowsec belt not in mission) weren't taxed nor time bonus rewards (I was in npc corp)

If this is the case also for mission rats, then this change will matter as much as a fart in a Texas tornado....
Originally by: Urgg Boolean
There are a couple of space based games with release dates as yet unspecified. There are many existing factors that are in the negative column for EVE, including a horrible interface, buggy/flaky code in general, years to build skills - the list is huge actually).

You really think any of them will not have the same issues???
Not to mention that they'll be horribly much 'smaller' than EVE....
Originally by: Gavin DeVries
Miners already pay a 5% tax (of the minerals) on refining, reduced if they have standing the corporation owning the station. How does one get standing with the corporation? Running missions, which will be taxed at 11% for the duration of the standing grind.

I should have said 'extra tax'.... In any case, it'll not be something that'll matter...
Originally by: Gavin DeVries
Besides, mining is lower income than missioning, at least with the level 3-4 missions.

Actually missioning can earn you 3-4x more (for L4 missions) than mining (when both done in high-sec).

Gavin DeVries
Posted - 2009.09.19 16:02:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Urgg Boolean
For those of you who say "players must pay for a "safe" hi sec experience". I say, we already do : $15/month sub fee.


This reply should easily take up a big chunk of my 5 minute timer from the previous post.

I have to disagree with you here. Your $15 per month subscription fee does not pay for a safe hi sec experience; it pays for the EVE experience. Someone once said what I feel is the design philosphy of EVE: "If you're not willing to fight for what you have, you don't deserve to have it, and you WILL lose it". That seems to be the driving force behind all the developer decisions in making this game. Hi-sec is not safe. It is not intended to be safe. It is intended to be safer than low-sec or null-sec.

Right now, there are many players who stay in the starter corporations. The only things these players cannot do are the things that require multiple people. The developers have always tried to set things up where risk and interaction bring higher rewards than those with low/no risk and interaction. So, if you stay in an NPC corp where nobody can declare war on you, and your only threat is being suicide ganked, you should make less money than someone doing the same activities in a player corporation.

Some Advisor
Posted - 2009.09.19 16:06:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Julian Lynq
yes sure best change... why not make wardecs free also ? so all of you super leet people can declare war on the new 1 man corps?and raise tax to 100%. also great of ccp not having the balls to put it in change notes-no wait make it 120% so people acutally loose money and make wardecs give the deccing corp 1b isk instead of costing money.


to early for tears, but nice preview ^^

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.09.19 16:08:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Mia Morningstar

On SISI, my BELT rat bounties (random lowsec belt not in mission) weren't taxed nor time bonus rewards (I was in npc corp)


The changes are not final.

Also, did you wait 15-20 minutes....?

RedSplat
Posted - 2009.09.19 16:11:00 - [74]
 

Stay the course CCP and ignore the carebear whining.

This change is LONG overdue and needed to balance highsec.

Although you should really think about bumping it to 20% as 11% knocked off of level 4 income is peanuts.


Voogru
Gallente
Massive Damage
We Are John Galt
Posted - 2009.09.19 16:14:00 - [75]
 

I think it needs to be higher.

20 - 25%.

It also should apply to market transactions, LP, etc.

Adam Ridgway
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.19 16:17:00 - [76]
 

The whiners in this thread are pathetic and just show how they should be taxed much more and probably nerfed in many ways (mostlly skill caps for every part of the game).

They have no idea how much INMUNITY does affect this game, they think it's all about them and their 'solo playing'. NO ONE gives a **** about your solo playing, but logistic alts (I refeer to combat logistics, but also to freighters i.e.) or risk free money making alts (mission runners, miners, even industrials though industrials usually are in player corps because they need for various activities) DO affect people playing the real EVE, not EVE Lite: NPC Corps (aka WoW in space) and do it seriouslly.

So get over it and be glad the change is so minor (yet, I hope, even if we have to wait 2 years for more nerfing of npc corps).

Ariane VoxDei
Posted - 2009.09.19 16:20:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Ariane VoxDei on 19/09/2009 16:20:49
Originally by: bruggie
If I need to pay for Concord i want subsecond response times everywhere in high sec...
LOL. THIS!
And we want concord to pop anyone even looking at our mission wrecks in a funny way.
Oh and we want npc's to do our looting and salvaging for us - without further fees, what do you think a ridiculous tax percentage like that is for.
Concord would be able to buy all the 4 empires very soon. And then expand into low and null, soon forcing every alliance to be peons under the new Pax Concordia (aka eve: kittens online), with everyone being nice and getting along and doing nothing but mining and producing for their new masters unless they want to be have their clones removed and being concordokkened.

Mia Morningstar
Posted - 2009.09.19 16:21:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Mia Morningstar

On SISI, my BELT rat bounties (random lowsec belt not in mission) weren't taxed nor time bonus rewards (I was in npc corp)


The changes are not final.

Also, did you wait 15-20 minutes....?


I didn't get taxed for killing 15k frigate nor 65k cruiser but I got taxed for killing a 160k BC... in BELT

also

I didn't get taxed 88k isk time bonus reward but got taxed 712k isk time bonus reward

All of this was in losec

bleh, now I'm not sure Embarassed

Ariane VoxDei
Posted - 2009.09.19 16:26:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Adam Ridgway
The whiners in this thread are pathetic
...
They have no idea how much INMUNITY does affect this game, they think it's all about them and their 'solo playing'. NO ONE gives a **** about your solo playing, but logistic alts (I refeer to combat logistics, but also to freighters i.e.)

This tax will do NOTHING what so ever to logistics alts.
It will only put some pressure on mission runners, not anyone else.
Pathetic? Your line of reasoning comes to mind.

master chiefy
Caldari
The Perfect Storm
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2009.09.19 16:28:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Edited by: CCP Eris Discordia on 19/09/2009 13:22:14
It's not in the sisi patch notes because I don't know how to edit them, I think I have to mail them to someone who has access to it and then it is edited in. This hsn't been properly set up yet but for the next sisi update I think there will be more and more accurate notes ( at least from me)

It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basisWink


Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average.


lol surely all devs should have access to things like patch notes...what a joke that is. No wonder things get put in without our knowledge.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.19 16:34:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 16:34:44
To put the discussion on what gets taxed to bed (for missions).

I just did an L4 mission on sisi. Both types of rewards, plus rat bounties were taxed.

Ariane VoxDei
Posted - 2009.09.19 16:38:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Ariane VoxDei on 19/09/2009 16:40:22
Guys you need to STFU, all of you.

The only real way to 'hurt' the use of npc corps is putting some seriously sick draconian limits on what ships you may use (make active/get onboard) while in a npc corp.

No T2 or T3 what so ever. Neither shipwise or modules.
No battleships.
No freighters/JF/orca/rorq.
No barges/exhumers above retriever.
No faction ships.
No battlecruisers.
No capitals.

Further, if you account is more than 60 days old:
No cruisers.
No dessies.
No frigates.
No industrial.
Shuttles and noobships only.

This, and only this is what is going to work and is going to be needed to satisfy the satanic hate there is out there against hi-sec residents being in NPC corps.

edit: forgot industials and dessies.

Doomed Predator
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.09.19 16:42:00 - [83]
 

Needs to be 25%, since 25 is such a nice number. Carebears need to grow a pair or ragequit and give me their stuff.

Lord Delacroix
Amarr
Team Ice
Posted - 2009.09.19 16:46:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Lord Delacroix on 19/09/2009 16:50:17
wat

mission runners are the people who create new ISK in the game
what will happen is just that prices will deflate by around 11% to match the reduced money supply, no real harm for anyone but people who currently hold a lot of illiquid assets.

Nyota Sol
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.09.19 16:51:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Nyota Sol on 19/09/2009 16:53:39
bash empire players and mission runners all you want, but some of us PAYING CUSTOMERS actually like our noob corp and would quit with a silly new mechanic like this.

the gameplay would gain absolutely nothing and you'd lose subscriptions in the name of some silly ideological push towards 0.0 corps.

flame away...

if this were to go live you'd lose ALL my accounts. that's not a threat.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.19 16:52:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 17:02:21
Originally by: Lord Delacroix
mission runners are the people who create new ISK in the game
what will happen is that prices will deflate by around 11% to match the reduced money supply

Not entirely true....

Ratters create ISK bounties, 'plex runners create ISK from Overseer's stuff, WH space inhabitants create ISK from tags, some limited ISK is created from NPC trading.

Plus of.c. one of the largest ones, Insurance!

Prices of T1 goods CAN'T fall any further (unless insurance is lessened/removed)! Mineral prices are currently at the 'floor', and can't drop any further since it'll then become profitable to insure and suicide ships (thus creating ISK and raising mineral prices).

However, since mineral prices ARE at the floor, this indicates that there is too many minerals in the game for too little ISK. Possibly new ISK isn't the resource inflow that needs to get throttled back....
Originally by: Nyota Sol
....but if this were to go live you'd lose ALL my accounts.

Do you know how many times this argument has been made when CCP propose changes? Probably every single time!

Do you know how many times it has resulted in any noticeable decrease in players? ZERO!

Throwing that old, outworn threat around just makes you look utterly silly!

EDIT: Skunk is absolutely correct in his post below this one in how this'll work out....

Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
Posted - 2009.09.19 16:59:00 - [87]
 

Nice idea but - All pointless anyway

1) 3% of my mission running income for immunity to wardecs.. yes please :)

2)So you force the NPC corp coward into a one man player corp (0% tax)
You then wardec this corp.
He then jumps through a selection of other one man player corps (0% tax)

You waste a fortune on wardecs and watch him keep his immunity.

(non) Exploit Online

SKUNK

Nai Ling
Amarr
Middle Finger Technology
Posted - 2009.09.19 17:07:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Edited by: CCP Eris Discordia on 19/09/2009 13:22:14
It's not in the sisi patch notes because I don't know how to edit them, I think I have to mail them to someone who has access to it and then it is edited in. This hsn't been properly set up yet but for the next sisi update I think there will be more and more accurate notes ( at least from me)

It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basisWink


Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average.


Tell the truth, Eris.
It was costing too much to paint all your ships pink, and CONCORD started a wage strike... this tax was an appeasement.

I knew it...

LifeLines
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.09.19 17:08:00 - [89]
 

imagine most mission runners having employment histories longer than Hardin's...

Chip Flux
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.09.19 17:18:00 - [90]
 

the reason this is serious to me has absolutely nothing to do with isk.
the point in all this is that CCP has yet again spoken of my game with derision'
CAS is my corp, it is why I have played eve for so long
I do not want to leave, I am not going to leave.
I have impeccable stats all round, got through hard gameplay supported by a corperation of good friends sprinkled by a constant stream of a random sample of the worlds population.
I have a game i play and enjoy
I will not be told it is lame, I expect it of players


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