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Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.09.18 10:51:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 03/11/2009 12:04:51
Vargur
Base powergrid increases from 7900 to 8500 bringing it's fittings potential it in line with that of it's peers.
Special bonus 25% reduction to large projectile fitting requirements.

Fittings wise, the Vargur is already somewhat off the pace before artillery are even considered. With the power grid increased, this is rectified. The additional role bonus allows the Vargur to fit 1200mm turrets without the need for fitting mods in a similar manner to other marauders.

Typhoon
As on Sisi

Fleet Issue Typhoon
As on Sisi

Tempest
Slot layout: 8 high, 7 med, 4 low slots, 6 turrets, 2 launchers
Fittings: 670 CPU, 15700 powergrid (+120 cpu +200 pg)

Bonuses: 7.5% bonus to large projectile rate of fire, 7.5% bonus to large projectile Tracking per level.
Hitpoints: 7129 shields, 6023 armour, 6641 hull
Dronebay: 75mb bandwidth, 100m3 dronebay
Speed: 135m/s max velocity, 102,280,000kg
Sensor: 64km targeting range, 8 locked targets, 120mm scan resolution
Inertia Modifier changed to 0.118

These changes may seem drastic, however there are several things to consider.
1) The real problem with the Tempest was that it had conflicting roles, which often overlapped with ships far better suited to those tasks. For instance, the Typhoon, most amarr and most gallente ships are better at RR, whilst most tier 3 ships are better at sniping, and although making a faster tempest would make the tempest better, it would more often than not displace ships lower down the chain (Battlecruisers, Munnin). The main thing these changes aim to accomplish is a role separation of the Tempest from it's peers.
2) Autocannons require +1 more damage mod when used as a primary weapons system. This is because of the relatively low grid, zero cap use, choice of damage type and relative range of the turrets, simply increasing autocannon damage to a level worth caring about would make them too tempting an alternative on other racial ships. However, things change for the better when used in conjunction with shield tanking as 3 damage mods as standard, greatly improves the ships performance.
3) Shield tanking provides better synergy with it's new speed. Unlike armour tanking, rigs and plates often disgue the fact that in most other instances, the Tempest is actually quite nimble.
4) Instead of choosing between a **** Armour or an even worse shield tank, you can now *Tank* a Tempest. More importantly, you now have the choice between a full 8 slot active tank (884 dps tanked using t2, no rigs), 11 slot EHP passive tank (170 EHP), a more realistic fit with a MWD with tackle, or a gang fit with target painters, either way, with 7 mid slots, you now have a choice.
In snipe mode, you may be disappointed to read that it loses a little dps (3-4%), and 25% of it's alpha relative to the Maelstrom, however, with the alpha changes it is still doing 50% more alpha than on TQ and with the tracking bonus, it becomes an excellent option for fleet support.
5) Shield RR is under used due to the fact that there are 2 armour tanking battleships for every 1. Although tackling mods are hard to fit and plates give more base armour, a shield tanking RR fleet would have higher average resistances (invuls) and shield transferrers rep more hp/sec and armour. This combined with higher damage would mean that a shield RR fleet would theoretically beat an armour tanking rr fleet given HIC support. All that's required to make it happen are the right platforms and a cpu reduction in shield transferrers.


Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.09.18 10:57:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 03/11/2009 11:54:05
Fleet Issue Tempest
New slot layout: 8 high, 7 med, 5 low slots, 6 turrets, 4 launchers
Fittings: 677 CPU, 17050 powergrid
Dronebay and bandwidth increased by 25m3.
Speed: +10% max velocity and agility increased by 10%

Munnin
Slot layout changed to 6/3/6

Panther
Power grid increased to 14750
Missile hardpoints increased from 0 to 1.

Maelstrom
Fittings: 670 CPU, 23500 powergrid (+30 cpu, +2500 power grid)
Inertia Modifier changed to 0.122
Max velocity changed to 103 m/s


Large Autocannons
All large autocannons to receive a 250% increase to base optimal range.
All medium autocannons to receive a 100% increase to base optimal range.
(Eg, 800mm II's with barrage will have their optimal range increased from 6km to 15km.)

The AC boost increases the optimal range instead of fall off. This gives a noticeable damage increase at web/distributor range without the balance pitfalls of increasing fall off to give a similar effect (at 15km, a 50% falloff increase would be required to give the same damage as a 250% optimal range increase would. Also, somethings to consider.
Higher autocannon tiers become more viable as the optimal range increase multiplies
Neutron Blaster Cannon II optimal with Null is 11km, 17km on the Rokh - Blasters previously out damaged autocannons way out to 20km, by which time, autocannons where dominated by Pulse lasers well out to 40km.
As I explained earlier, autocannons require an extra damage mod to when used as primary weapon system, this is to prevent it's use on other races of ship. Therefore, increasing the raw turret damage is illadvised.
Falloff is a terrible mechanic to balance battleship turrets around as to get a noticeable effect, falloff would have to be increased by an excessive amount.
Amongst other things, turret tracking/sig radius defines the size class - messing with this per turret is also ill advised


Artillery
All Artillery to receive a 100% increase to clip size, (about 2 extra rounds) 15% reduction in optimal range.
Medium artillery damage mod and ROF duration increased by 25%, Large artillery damage mod and ROF duration increased by 50%


1400mm Howitzer Artillery II
20% Increase to all 1400mm turret tracking (Inherits 1200mm tracking, eg new 1400mm II tracking = 0.01125)
Base Fall off reduced by 20km to 25000m

1200mm Artillery II
20% Increase to all 1200mm turret tracking (eg new 1400mm II tracking = 0.0135)
Base Fall off reduced by 20km to 25000m

These changes effectively lower artillery tracking back within the same order of magnitude of it's peers, it is still racially, the worst tracking and worst DPS (per gun) turret, but now, not so much.

1680mm Siege Cannon II.
1680mm Base stats (vs old 1400mm II)
Damage mod: 12.67875 (7.245)
ROF: 37.209375 (23.625)
Tracking: 0.0090000 (Same as old 1400mm II)
Optimal: 52800 (48000)
Falloff: 25000 (35000)
Powergrid: 4155 (3575)
CPU: 50 (47)

Although a feasible 1680mm Tempest fit can be achieved with rigs, it will be the Maelstrom that would gleam the biggest benefit from this new tier of turrets. 30% more DPS, 10% Optimal range, the same clip size and tracking as current 1400mm's and a respectable 75% increase to alpha, the 1680mm Maelstrom becomes the main battle, minmatar sniper battleship.


To be continued...

darius mclever
Posted - 2009.09.18 11:08:00 - [3]
 

i think ccp wanted the vargur to be an AC boat and you see that on the fitting stats. and for that the vargur works pretty well.

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.09.18 11:08:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 05/10/2009 08:40:25
New Charts
Green=Old Tempest
Close Range (Megathron with new void ammo, Maelstrom and Tempest 8/7/4 with new 800mm's)
T2 LR Ammo, Static, Raw, Armour tankers 2dm, shield tankers 3dm.
T2 LR Vs Battleships, Raw, 150ms, Armour tankers 2dm, shield tankers 3dm.
T2 LR Vs Battleships, Raw, 150ms, Armour tankers 2dm, shield tankers 3dm. Tempest 8/7/4 with target painter.
T2 LR Vs Battleships, 2xEANM II + DCU II, 150ms, Armour tankers 2dm, shield tankers 3dm.
T2 LR Vs Battleships, 2xEANM II + DCU II + Explosive, 150ms, Armour tankers 2dm, shield tankers 3dm.


T1 Ammo Ammo, Static, Raw, Armour tankers 2dm, shield tankers 3dm.
T1 Ammo Vs Battleships, Raw, 150ms, Armour tankers 2dm, shield tankers 3dm.
T1 Ammo Vs Battleships, Raw, 150ms, Armour tankers 2dm, shield tankers 3dm. Tempest 8/7/4 with target painter.
T1 Ammo Vs Battleships, 2xEANM II + DCU II, 150ms, Armour tankers 2dm, shield tankers 3dm.
T1 Ammo Vs Battleships, 2xEANM II + DCU II + Explosive, 150ms, Armour tankers 2dm, shield tankers 3dm.


Long Range
(Maelstrom With 1650mm, Tempest 8/7/4 with new 1400mm's)

T2 LR Ammo, Static, Raw, Armour tankers 3TE, shield tankers 3TC.
T2 LR Ammo vs BS 150m/s, Raw, Armour tankers 3TE, shield tankers 3TC.
T2 LR vs MWD'ing Hac 1500m/s, Raw, Armour tankers 3TE, shield tankers 3TC - Max tracking speed.
T2 LR vs MWD'ing Hac 1500m/s, Raw, Armour tankers 3TE, shield tankers 3TC - Max tracking speed + Tempest 8/7/6 with Target Painter.
Best T1 vs MWD'ing Hac 1500m/s, Raw, Armour tankers 3TE, shield tankers 3TC - Max tracking speed.
Best T1 vs MWD'ing Hac 1500m/s, Raw, Armour tankers 3TE, shield tankers 3TC - Max tracking speed + Tempest 8/7/6 with Target Painter.

Best T1, Raw, Armour tankers 3TE, shield tankers 3TC.

Notes
800mm II (new) = +250% Optimal range
1400mm II (New) = +20% more tracking
1650mm II = 8% more damage, 10% more range and 25% more alpha than the old 1400mm II (same tracking)


Doubt the strength of the target painter at your own peril.YARRRR!!

Note that in sniper mode, the Maelstrom has 50% more alpha strike using 1650mm than the new Tempest 1400mm's.
Also note that tracking old vs new 1400mm on the tempests remains similar at long ranges even with improved 1400mm due to mid slot scripted tracking mods.






Summary
Void ammo damage increased by 7%
Large Autocannons Gain 250% more optimal range
Large Artillery Gain 20% more tracking and clip size
New 1650mm Artillery Turret added with 25% more alpha, 10% more range, 10% more damage and 10% more fitting costs.
Maelstrom gains more powergrid, allowing it to fit (with some difficulty) the new 1650mm turrets.
The Tempest transforms into a shield tanking, target painting (up to 112.5km% optimal with Max skills) support battleship, with increased dps in most instances (due to 3 gyro's)
Faction ships modified accordingly.

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.09.18 11:14:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: darius mclever
i think ccp wanted the vargur to be an AC boat and you see that on the fitting stats. and for that the vargur works pretty well.
Prescriptive game play is bad (CCP Greyscale says so).
Also, try a nightmare with Tachyeons, or any amarr ship with tachs and report back to me about how awesome AC's, or even artillery are for missions. Quite simply, there is no excuse for limiting the vargur to autocannons.

darius mclever
Posted - 2009.09.18 11:21:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Originally by: darius mclever
i think ccp wanted the vargur to be an AC boat and you see that on the fitting stats. and for that the vargur works pretty well.
Prescriptive game play is bad (CCP Greyscale says so).
Also, try a nightmare with Tachyeons, or any amarr ship with tachs and report back to me about how awesome AC's, or even artillery are for missions. Quite simply, there is no excuse for limiting the vargur to autocannons.


corp mate flies an 800mm AC vargur in missions with me. barrage for long range targets and emp for things that manage to get close. pretty nice ship i have to say.

I currently train for a mega pulse apoc. but it will take a few more weeks. :)

Hun Jakuza
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming
Posted - 2009.09.18 11:49:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Hun Jakuza on 18/09/2009 11:49:12
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Originally by: darius mclever
i think ccp wanted the vargur to be an AC boat and you see that on the fitting stats. and for that the vargur works pretty well.
Prescriptive game play is bad (CCP Greyscale says so).
Also, try a nightmare with Tachyeons, or any amarr ship with tachs and report back to me about how awesome AC's, or even artillery are for missions. Quite simply, there is no excuse for limiting the vargur to autocannons.


corp mate flies an 800mm AC vargur in missions with me. barrage for long range targets and emp for things that manage to get close. pretty nice ship i have to say.

I currently train for a mega pulse apoc. but it will take a few more weeks. :)


Say for him try it in PvP :D
AC and Matar BS-s sux now, you just can using them in Pve or you will die fast.
Need projectile and ship changes for them.

Navigator Six
Domination.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2009.09.18 11:56:00 - [8]
 

Excellent work by Pattern as usual. Not that interested in changing the Phoon, but the rest of the stuff is solid gold. Get these goodies in!

Spaztick
Terminal Impact
Kairakau
Posted - 2009.09.18 12:13:00 - [9]
 

Nobody uses marauders for pvp, because the faction ships do that just fine, and will do it even better after Dominion.

Nishachara
True Enlightenment
Posted - 2009.09.18 12:19:00 - [10]
 

Supported....

Ath Amon
Posted - 2009.09.18 12:29:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Ath Amon on 18/09/2009 12:31:18
imo will not do much, AC will still be gimped as the graph is comparing ships with kinda different configurations

eg the tempest in you graph has double dmg bonus on 6 turrets + 2 siege + 3 dmg mods and is still lower than a 7 turret mega with 2 dmg mods... add a 3rd dmg mod and the curve will be alredy bad, same if you add a tracking enhancer, not to say the mega will track 37.5 better than the pest

the comparsion and balance between various weapons should be done keeping in account the weapon stats, then you apply it to various ships with similar fittings...

you are building AC and the ship togather to get a certain curve, maybe you can balance it out, but what about all the other minnie ships that have not 2 dmg bonuses or 4 low slot to spare to put in dmg mods?

same goes for arty that doesnt just need some range or tracking, it need huge dps boost... try to compare a "naked" rail with a "naked" arty the graph is extreeeemely interesting and really show how messed up that weapon is

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.09.18 12:46:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 18/09/2009 12:51:07
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 18/09/2009 12:50:50
Originally by: Ath Amon

imo will not do much, AC will still be gimped as the graph is comparing ships with kinda different configurations,

eg the tempest in you graph has double dmg bonus on 6 turrets + 2 siege + 3 dmg mods and is still lower than a 7 turret mega with 2 dmg mods... add a 3rd dmg mod and the curve will be alredy bad, same if you add a tracking enhancer, not to say the mega will track 37.5 better than the pest

Turret per turret, the results look bad, as they should - as I explained, this is to prevent AC's being from defacto turret of choice.
Also remember that the Void ammo featured in that example is the boosted (+7% damage) one.

However, this isn't just a tempest fix, or a AC's boost. Combine everything, the new target painter bonus, additional AC optimal range, the tempests increased speed, it's new slot layout, the improvements to 1200mm/1400mm tracking along with the 1650m and the synergistic way they fit together and I think you have something that provides a refresh.

Also, it's a fairer comparison to compare shield tankers with +1 damage mod because fitting damage mods on shield tankers has a lot lower impact on overall, none snipe performance.


Originally by: Ath Amon
you are building AC and the ship togather to get a certain curve, maybe you can balance it out, but what about all the other minnie ships that have not 2 dmg bonuses or 4 low slot to spare to put in dmg mods?

I'm looking at the raw stats only for a sanity check. most of the work relates to what role the ship accomplishes, as far as i'm concerned, the only minmatar ship left out of the charts was the typhoon and most consider it's performance pretty decent.

Originally by: Ath Amon
same goes for arty that doesnt just need some range or tracking, it need huge dps boost... try to compare a "naked" rail with a "naked" arty the graph is extreeeemely interesting and really show how messed up that weapon is

Please re-read the section on artillery.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2009.09.18 13:13:00 - [13]
 

the weapons look bad because are not balanced

the problem of people using ac is just for few ships that have not proper dmg bonus for the racial weapons and so use proj but this is kinda a special situation for ships whitout a racial dmg bonus on turrets and imo is not something bad by itself... a mega pilot maybe will use proj rather than hybrid if AC had better dps?... maybe yes but is going to lose a base 25% of his dmg so there is still a trade off

if we dont want to allow ships of different races to use weapons from other ones the simplest solution will be to restrict them to such weapons, that is also kinda logical and in this way we have not create gimp weapons for the fear of other races using them.

now about the AC graph... as said the fitting are extremely different... in the first graph the mega pilot have 2 slot advantage over the pest one and on top of that 37.5% better tracking tracking... what is the tradeoff for that?

range? 1 tc and range will be quite similar and he will have even better tracking and 2 more slots advantage, thats not balanced at all... the curve as it is looks ok, but doesnt take in account other factors like tracking or mod used, cap and so on

and note that is true that neuts use cap but also minnie ships need to load lot of ammos (expecially if in a situation like the graph one with a pest using torps+proj) and have quite gimped cargo bay so they use less cap but also can carry less cap charges


for the second graph is kinda similar... the mega with rail do same dmg as the pest (again double bonus vs 1 bonus, 6 turrets vs 7) but the mega have waay more range and tracking (due to its second bonus) so, even if the dmg is similar the hybrid weapon have some great advantages over the proj

and we should consider too the base range of minnie sensors, is another story but imo have to be considered to "assign a range" to arties

if anything imo the balance should be made so that slotwise the things should be balanced... ok i need 1 more dmg mod so that 1 of my gun do same dmg as 1 of yours but then you will need 1 more tracking mod to be able to track as weel as mine and so on...

if you get such an huge disparity of mods used you will not achieve a good balance, as said you can get a graph that look good for some particular ship and with some particular fittings, but that is kinda a subjective graph... if someone doesnt fit the weapons/mod you envisioned here that the balance go off

btw i liked some of the things in your post... the big gun, phoon with 5 and so on... but imo to touch proj should be something to do on its own not to fit a certain ship...

first get the weapons balanced, then apply them to the ship and sdjust to rebalance them

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.09.18 13:31:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 18/09/2009 13:34:21
Firstly,

Large AC's just gained +250% more optimal range.
That separates them from the point blank higher dps blasters, and puts them in it's own clear damage bracket.


Secondly.

Raw DPS isn't everything, there are so many factors to consider that simply pointing at neutron blaster throns and saying he has more damage than be doesn't really get anyone anywhere. You build a model, describe roles and niches for your weapon systems and ships as so that you avoid conflicting issues. Simply giving AC's blaster damage would only result in Gallente pilots wanting capless guns in the next season.

Thirdly.

The Tempest under these changes is no longer the fleet sniper of choice. That goes to the Maelstrom (yellow). However, with the bonused target painter, and the improvements to 1200mm and 1400mm tracking, the Tempest becomes considerably better (purple) at anti-support than it once was (green), at the same time proving a tracking bonus to all ships engaging it's target.

Fourthly

You talk about comparing gun for gun, then you throw in the mega's ship tracking bonus, whilst leaving out the Hyperion for example. All I can say is that this has been a pretty long process, with alot more considered than just this final outcome.

darius mclever
Posted - 2009.09.18 13:32:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Spaztick
Nobody uses marauders for pvp, because the faction ships do that just fine, and will do it even better after Dominion.


err ... maybe look at the videos of Darknesss and bulldogroheim.

bulldogroheim even uses a vargur.

nice try though

Ath Amon
Posted - 2009.09.18 13:56:00 - [16]
 

wait i'm not just speaking about dmg (cept for arty that need lot of it :P) i'm speaking about all the stats... is why i bring up the "problem" about tracking, about mods used and so on

dmg is a component, but not the only one... my point is that there should be a tradeoff... if a weapon do so much dmg that another to catch it need 1 bonus+1mod then there should be something (tracking, range, both, who knows .P) so that the other weapon need 1 bonus + 1 mod to compete with that one in these departements

this is not happening in the first graph and is why i spoke about the tracking bonus of mega and the slot used... and if it was the hype nothing had changed... as it had still a "free bonus" over the pest.

imo is risky to compare the dps graphs of various ships to balance out the weapons as actually we are not comparing 2 weapons systems but 2 different ships with an envisioned fitting... of course it is usefull for the overall balance, but before that the "main weapon balance" should be dome mostly comparing just the weapons and their performances.

as said i think you did a good job, some ideas are nice and about the ships i mostly agree with everything, but for proj i think the balance should focus on the weapon only and the kind of result you want to get... the ships come after that

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.18 14:18:00 - [17]
 

Supported. Well done defining a core concept for the Tempest Pattern. All the changes provide a distinct role/set of capabilities for all three Minmatar BS and large projectiles as well. Perhaps reduce Void's tracking penalty a bit as well? Or just remove it? The cap use it causes is quite a penalty in and of itself.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope

Posted - 2009.09.18 14:43:00 - [18]
 

Supported!

SRS Tali
Minmatar
Enterprise Estonia
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.09.18 15:06:00 - [19]
 


Marn Prestoc
Minmatar
Maelstrom Crew
Paradigm Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.18 16:02:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Marn Prestoc on 18/09/2009 16:02:04
Aye. My summary of changes:

T2 Ammo - Still wouldn't use Hail. For example Void which is boosted in this proposal has less penalties, optimal is 0.75x whilst hail is 0.5x. With the new optimal for ac's a change to the optimal penalty would go a long way in changing my mind.

Vargur - Yes. I have no idea why only the Vargur was given nerfed PG due to "don't want it being a pvp ship with nos/neuts in misc highs" yet all the other races can fit them.

Typhoon - Yes yes yes. Give it the flexibility it should have being minmatar. Plus you get a bit more benifit from damage mods if you fit 5 of a weapon rather than 4.

Fleet Issue Typhoon - Might actually be worth the isk unlike the current design of CCPs which has really poor upgrade compared to the other races.

Tempest - Actually a reason to fly it now. Long gone are the flexible role days when there was only 8 battleships and no rigs to further specialize for a role.

Fleet Tempest - Yeah, although i'd consider a 8th mid. Hard to say without testing the proposed Tempest first.

Maelstrom - Improvements don't really help appart from Arty fits for new 1650s so no problem with it.

Large AC's - God knows they need something and this will do. hit quality reduction just screw AC's due to "minmatar fight in falloff" stuff.

Arty - Yes, long gone are the days of insta popping stuff with 6 gyro arty pests in pre-pre-boost hp level days that were the reason for giving them lowest range and tracking.

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.09.18 16:25:00 - [21]
 

Summary Added
Quote:
Summary
Void ammo damage increased by 7%
Large Autocannons Gain 250% more optimal range
Large Artillery Gain 20% more tracking and clip size
New 1650mm Turret added with 25% more alpha, 10% more range, 10% more damage and 10% more fitting costs.
Maelstrom gains more powergrid, allowing it to fit (with some difficulty) the new 1650mm turrets.
The Tempest transforms into a shield tanking, target painting (up to 112.5km% optimal with Max skills) support battleship, with increased dps in most instances (due to 3 gyro's)
Faction ships modified accordingly.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.09.18 16:41:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 18/09/2009 16:43:51
Originally by: Pattern Clarc

Void
Hail



Void is not a Minmatar ammo. Furthermore, Hail is always the wrong choice unless you're shooting a stationary dread at 1km. Your changes don't really fix that, and nor do they fix EMP and other "problem" areas.

Quote:

Vargur
Base powergrid increases from 7900 to 8500
An additional Role bonus: -25% reduction in Large Artillery Power grid needs.



It already got a role bonus. The right answer here is to lower arty fittings or boost Vargur fittings.

Quote:

Typhoon
Slot layout: 8 high, 4 med, 7 low slots, 5 turrets, 5 launchers



Agreed, because it helps take the edge off of WTF-skills required.

Quote:
Fleet Issue Typhoon
Slot layout: 8 high, 5 med, 7 low slots, 5 turrets, 6 launchers



I agree with the extra mid, I don't agree with the extra launcher.

Quote:
Tempest
Slot layout: 8 high, 7 med, 4 low slots, 6 turrets, 2 launchers
Fittings: 650 CPU, 15500 powergrid (+50 cpu)

Bonuses: 7.5% bonus to large projectile rate of fire, 50% bonus to Target painter optimal range per level.
Hitpoints: 7129 shields, 6023 armour, 6641 hull
shield re-charge rate reduced by -25%
Dronebay: 75mb bandwidth, 100m3 dronebay
Speed: 135m/s max velocity, 100,680,000kg
Sensor: 64km targeting range, 8 locked targets, 120mm scan resolution



A 70km target painter is useless. I would rather strongly not want to waste a bonus on that. And yes, it is a waste.

Quote:
The main thing these changes aim to accomplish is a role separation of the Tempest from it's peers.

By making it suck because you don't fix the guns and now waste a bonus to help everyone else in fleet? Yay, I always wanted to waste my Tier 2 BS on having a EW BS! Rolling Eyes

Quote:
In snipe mode, you may be disappointed to read that it loses a little dps, and 25% of it's alpha, however, with the target painter, it becomes an excellent option for fleet support, and with the changes to artillery tracking, you'll find it even better than before in the anti-support role.


Fly A Zealot. 4srsly. This is not a battleship role.

Quote:

Fleet Issue Tempest
New slot layout: 8 high, 7 med, 5 low slots, 6 turrets, 4 launchers
Fittings: 677 CPU, 17050 powergrid
Dronebay and bandwidth increased by 25m3.
Speed: +10% max velocity and agility increased by 10%



I don't think this would make the ship worthwhile to use when there are so many better ships out there, and about to be out there. It's a decent attempt, and better than what we have I think, but doesn't fix any of the core problems with it.

Quote:
Maelstrom
Fittings: 645 CPU, 23500 powergrid (+5 cpu, +2500 power grid)[/b]



Nice, you manage to completely miss what makes the Maelstrom frustrating to use: a lack of agility. I realize you're trying to redefine the role but... no.

Quote:
Large Autocannons
All large autocannons to receive a 250% increase to base optimal range.
(Eg, 800mm II's with barrage will have their optimal range increased from 6km to 15km.)



Racial flavor? We didn't need that anyway. Blasters? We didn't need those either.

Quote:

Artillery
All Artillery to receive a 20% increase to clip size (about 2 extra rounds)



Artillery will still be far and away the worst long range platform, even with the new tracking and 60km target painters.

Quote:
the 1650mm Maelstrom becomes the main battle, minmatar sniper battleship.


The Maelstrom is already the main Minmatar sniper. It's *that much* better than the Pest.

TL;DR:
- Your changes don't address the core issues that must be addressed. They further remove the race from what brought me to it in the first place. I would sell my Minmatar pilot and buy (another) Amarr pilot if these changes went live.
- Your changes don't affect Eve that strongly, and they don't address active tanking.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.18 18:08:00 - [23]
 

I had a nice read over the changes, and I was about to reply when I saw Liang already did it for me. Pretty much represents my opinions, with one reservation. I'd rather the phoon get increased fittings than a 5/5 split - but that's just IMO.

OrangeAfroMan
Minmatar
AnTi.
Atrocitas
Posted - 2009.09.18 18:56:00 - [24]
 

Completely agree with Pattern's suggestions, please make it so

Dwindlehop
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2009.09.18 20:00:00 - [25]
 

Changes to large projectiles are long overdue. I believe Pattern's proposals are well balanced and retain Minmatar racial flavor.

Spare dronebay capacity is something many Minmatar drone ships need (recons, Pest/Mael. Cyc, CS, but not HACs or Cane). Additionally, all Minmatar ships also need an ammo bay, though the need is direst for BS.

Latest Sisi Navy Typhoon (8/4/8) is preferable to Pattern's. Bring back the 5/5 hardpoints however, please.

The Tempest definitely requires a fix but I am on the fence whether this is it. Pattern has also left out the Panther. I think both suffer from a lack of options for the Minmatar utility high slots (Panther especially since it has no launcher hardpoints). It would be a good Minmatar boost to bring some EW capabilities to our utility highslots, whether EW strength mods (paint, web) or reduced efficacy EW mods (tackle, paint).

Areo Hotah
Paxton Industries
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2009.09.18 21:15:00 - [26]
 

Although I do not fully support all these changes (would love to see a viable armor-tanking sniper, but I guess I can't), boost to Minmatar > BC and the Tempest in particular are long overdue.

Placing AC's optimal around disruptor range is a nice touch, and 1650mm arties on a Mael would make alpha strike viable again.

eliminator2
Gallente
Vindicated Blast.
Posted - 2009.09.18 22:41:00 - [27]
 

50% bonus to Target painter optimal range per level.


no ty gtfo

and basicly you made the pest into a shield tanker which carnt shield tank

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.09.18 23:45:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 19/09/2009 02:48:38
@Marn Prestoc
- Like I said in the SHC thread, the changes to ammo are just a band aid, t2 ammo in for serious design review.

@Liang Nuren
- Who said Void was Mminmatar? - This is a damage increase to blasters.
- Change artillery so that the vargur can fit 1200mm's easier? Fit Tach's onto a Paladin (which have even higher fitting requirements and let me know if you have enough grid left for a faction LAR)Laughing
- And it's less awkward with rr setups, and it requires less damage mods to boost dps by a similar amount.
- It would be fine with an extra low, and a similar hardpoint configuration too.
- It's a 112.5km target painter (1.5 (long range jamming skill) * 2.5 (minmatar battleship skill)) +60km falloff - further than that and tracking isn't an issue - BTW no one is forcing you to use it and feel free to think of something original in it's place, although it's a pretty good effect in practise. (yes, my huggin and SB roll with TP's, the phoon pilots I roll with give me props)
- What is this nonsense about not fixing the guns? You mean I haven't reduced the ROF to 50% of artillery like with AstroPhobic's suggestion (with only a 50% damage mod increase, that is a massive DPS increase? :lol:) Or I haven't given AC's +35% more falloff across all tiers? (dangerous, because of the scale of fall off already, and again problematic, because of all the ships with fall off bonuses.)
- The Tempest is better at anti-support with the changes than before, that's all. Also, WTB Zealot with +/-100ehp and +100km optimal at 250 dps. Troll harder tbh.
- It might be frustrating, but it's something that balances well with the shield tanking and damage potential. The main reason why I didn't change that aspect was because no one really mentioned that it required *boosting*.
- Racial flavour? You mean how blasters out damage the current tempest up to warp distrupt range. Or how messing with massive amounts of AC fall-off is ******ed?
- Artillery will still be capless, and will have higher alpha. The other aspects are now competitive. Boosting a weapons system why out of sync is how you end up with ******ed **** like Tachyon lasers, I merely want things balanced.
- The Maelstrom is better now (all the tier 3 BS's are) and it'll be better after at sniping, unless you want to want to almost remove one of the major reasons to use this ship in any type of fleet?

TD:DR
I apologise that I haven't boosted the Tempest by over nine thousand, increased fall off by ******ed amounts just because of lolracialtraits. However, this is what considered, carefully applied and thoroughly thought through change looks like. If you don't like it, you probably won't like any solution actually implemented.

@AstroPhobic
Dito

@Dwindlehop
- I agree with you on the Navy phoon, I honestly didn't think they would go there.
- Panther could use some extra fittings allowing it to roll with 1650mm's, I'll have a look at the charts and see what missile hardpoints would do.
- Neuts and RR are pretty FOTM, nos works but not as well, I would agree that a new powerfull highslot item would be rocking but theres alot already.

@eliminator2
- Insert anti "LoL target painter" troll flame here etc.
You can look at the tracking with, and without target painters. (see purple, much higher dps, better dps at closer ranges.) If you don't want to use a target painter, feel free to pad your shield EHP, or tracking computer, or get a maelstrom.
- It will tank as well as it's tier 2 battleship peers, (better than a raven TBH) with full damage, or lose tank for utility and keep full damage where as armour tankers would have the inverse trade off. Apologies for not giving it a 99.99% shield resistance bonus, but it is in line with it's peers.

Valerie Ganor
Minmatar
Corona Providence
Posted - 2009.09.20 17:48:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Valerie Ganor on 20/09/2009 17:49:19
I love most of the changes that were posted here except for the proposed Typhoon changes.

It already is one of the highest dmg tier 1 bs and most versatile ship next to the dominix. While i love to give 1 more gun and missle slot it will not do much.

The new tempest and the proposed tier3 arty are just made of win. I love it :)

Kaito Haakkainen
Posted - 2009.09.20 23:03:00 - [30]
 

Not too sure about the tempest changes but all the other suggestions seem solid.


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