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Yaay
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Posted - 2009.10.09 17:50:00 - [601]
 

Edited by: Yaay on 09/10/2009 17:57:42
Originally by: Charlotte Vanderbeam



I would say the point is to remove the large quantity of titans from game. CCP's idea is to get them all blown up.

I think the players would be happier if titans had a much larger defensive role for both self and fleet, while providing large amounts of logistical support to the front lines.

Will some titan pilots be ****ed and emo quit or sell off their titans, yes.... But that's not a bad thing for this game. As stated many times by players and Developers, There was never an intention to see this sort of titan proliferation. CCP just ****ed up implementation by making them an offensive tool of war which obviously everyone would want. Give them a niche defined role, and it becomes a whole new tool that people won't want to stack in mass on the battlefield.

This is why my DD proposal was all 2ndary effects. It was good in singular use, more defensively inclined while requiring fleets, not titans to do the job of killing ships. It also really limited stacking abilities because of the negative affects it could have on other titans.

It's why I continue not to like this idea, and push for another solution.

If you straight up make a titan an offensive platform, then it obviously has to bet the strongest in game, and that's going to force more proliferation and blobbing, not less. And I think all players agree that's not good for the game.

I will state again here, but will push you to Vuks post:

Heat makes a marvelous tool for titans to use. Allow them a platform to repair ships and modules for resource cost. Push their DD to have heat damage effects in addition to neuting and temporary warp scrambling effects which are all real life effects of an emp burst.

This ushers in the age of t3 w/o just having to make the modules better than t2. T2 could be the best performance out of overheated conditions, T3 could be weaker unless overheated, but have a much stronger resistance to heat damage. That way, the choice b/t t2 and t3 fit fleets can in part be a role in the strategies of warfare involving titans.

Add it's repair abilities to it's new AOE DD effect using heat as it's primary weapon, as well as it's jump bridge platform, gang bonuses, new guns, and clone vat bay... and you get the mobile base of operation that has a huge impact on fleets w/o having to be an offensive masterpiece.

I still think it needs more HP or resist in addtion to sisi, or a way to anchor and allow pilots to pw protect and leave the ship with a Reinforcement timer when anchored if attacked.

Serena Ku
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.09 18:20:00 - [602]
 

Originally by: Yaay
...I still think it needs more HP or resist...


QFT

GAdm Tyrael
Spacecataz.
Posted - 2009.10.09 18:25:00 - [603]
 

Edited by: GAdm Tyrael on 09/10/2009 18:38:38
Been reading quite a bit of this post and from what I see people desire a filled role / purpose to fielding titans outside spamming their DD, please correct me if I'm wrong...

With that in mind, its been a while since I've read how the new sov. control works / taking sov. control. From what I remember you have to set up claim disrupters of some sort to allow you to be able to assault the main hub and take claim.
Would it be too far fetched of an idea to give titans an option outside DD / Cap killer, to be a mobile version of these claim disrupters? I'd love to expand on this but like stated above I havn't read the sov changes in a while,would anyone care to elaborate on this? Shoot it down etc.

Succubine
Caldari
Succubine Dynasty Technologies
Posted - 2009.10.09 18:57:00 - [604]
 

Originally by: CCP Abathur
Update 3:

The RoF and the jump delay on all Titan super weapons have been increased from five to ten minutes.

Pending possible change - removal of all insurance (Basic level) from supercaps. Pend Insurance cannot verify the working conditions or quality control of the facilities in deep space used to manufacture super capital ships and are currently examining company policy with regard to this class.



It seems like a decent compromise. Titans in numbers will still be an issue, but the greater death penalty and reduced devastation may hopefully slow their production.

Yaay
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Posted - 2009.10.09 19:40:00 - [605]
 

Edited by: Yaay on 09/10/2009 19:43:58
Edited by: Yaay on 09/10/2009 19:42:04
Edited by: Yaay on 09/10/2009 19:40:52
Originally by: Succubine
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Update 3:

The RoF and the jump delay on all Titan super weapons have been increased from five to ten minutes.

Pending possible change - removal of all insurance (Basic level) from supercaps. Pend Insurance cannot verify the working conditions or quality control of the facilities in deep space used to manufacture super capital ships and are currently examining company policy with regard to this class.



It seems like a decent compromise. Titans in numbers will still be an issue, but the greater death penalty and reduced devastation may hopefully slow their production.


There is no such thing as balancing an over the top super weapon. It's either too much or to little. If it's not worth using, people won't deploy, if it's moderately good or better, people will just massively spam it until bulk conquers all.

Primary damage effect on a DD is a losing arguement, no matter what CCP tries to throw at us.

2ndary effects are just that, 2ndary. No matter how many you bring, you can't win a fight with them. Ultimately, someone has to do the work for the primary damage. If you make 2ndary effect hurt everyone in grid, then friendly and hostile titans are exposed to the same problems that normal fleet are, meaning the titans can't be overpowered in bulk. The only thing they can continue to do is 2ndary effects.

If Heat, energy, and warp scram are the 2ndary effects, then even they won't last forever. How many chances does a titan have of avoiding overheated mods coming from other titans DD before he's lost all his mods. Same with energy. It makes titans tactical, not overpowered or bulk necessity.

Sig Sour
Posted - 2009.10.10 17:19:00 - [606]
 

Edited by: Sig Sour on 10/10/2009 17:19:43
After using one on the test server and trying to fight some on the test server, this is my take.

I never thought I would have that feeling of being in a frig I spent all my isk on using autopilot in low sec again and just be puzzled as to what happened to my ship. So thanks for that feeling again...

I for one, do not like the direction of where the Titan is going. I estimate that these changes will only further the gap between those who already have them (the R64 gang) and those who don't. I can see a few titans end the game for up and comers (2-3 year old characters/corps/alliances).

Blueaise
Force Ratio
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.10 17:54:00 - [607]
 

some thoughts on the erebus.

Its pretty hard to have conclusive test results based on the absoloute noob carnage on sisi at the moment, also its probably not realistic to be testing with so many SC's in one place with such lolfits, i don't think most of these pilots had they paid 80bn for their ship would be going out with an outright gank/disposable fit but there you have it.

Titan Changes:

The DD "point at you, you are dead" change vs area of effect.

This is now horribly broken imho, the problem is when i am being jumped by 2 x ragnaroks, 4-5 aeons and a couple of nyx and hels plus another erebus. i have the titan set up with a permarun 2 x Cap reppers and about 70% percent resists all comedy T2 gear due to sisi. I only have 2 x guns in the top slots as i fitted 2 x gang mods, JP generator, DD and a cloak plus a remote cap repper, as a fleet support fit. I'm mostly being molested by fighter bombers and didn't get a DD once.

i DD a aeon, it barely scratched the paint, he was probably buffer fit to hell and back. even concentrating all my fire on the Aeon im not even doing anything to him, DD x 2 and still not even 50% into his armor (this is with level 5 everything).

the DD as a single shot, long reload mode should do exactly what it says on the tin. it should just kill whatever you point it at - call it the finger of god button. it should kill 50% of a titan, 75% of a supercap and oneshot a carrier or dread. the reason for this is simple, if you dont do simply epic damage (irrespective of their buffer) due to the long-reload time then the target is going to have repped/been RR'd back to full health before you can even DD them again, if it doesnt actually take them out of the fight then it is hardly "doomsday" and more "wet squib", for balance it shouldn't work on anything lower than a cap. it should just be a "last resort" do or die sort of function.

with such a small drone bay you have zero change of taking out a fighter bomber swarm, and without the doomsday AoE you have zero chance of actually reducing total incoming DPS when you are made primary (Which you pretty much always will be).

Now fair enough, in this configuration the tank took an absoloute pounding - over 6.5m in active perma-repped config and i had zero support with 12 supercaps battering away at me, but I'm surprised the titan, which is supposed to be a flagship has zero answer to defending against the new fighter bombers once its support fleet is gone? surely if supercaps get fighter bombers then titan needs a drone boat upgrade to field fighters to respond to them in balance? the only thing i can think about this was of course smarties, but since they are not really for use in FFA i haven't been able to test them vs FB's to find out if they are good at nuking them yet.

My view of the proper titan role is basically moving POS - the bonuses on turrets I don't see any point in at all, what is this supposed to be, a giant megathron? with your topslots with gang mods and logistics (as they should be) you would be left with at most 1 or 2 turrets, i would rather the erebus had a better drone bonus.

So to summarise about what i think the titan needs:

role: more of a floating pos/forward air base than outright ganktank/gunboat
bonuses: should be more about logistics/defense. this thing should rightly need a huge armada to take down and cause a lot of pain to its attackers in the process. it can still be killed too easily given the investment,
DD of Death: its either total area of effect where everyone is hurt or it needs to be a proper "finger of god" that can pretty much kill whatever you point it at, once, and then not again for a longish time. and it shouldnt be useful against non-caps.
Drones: FB's are very good now at killing titans, titan has pretty much zero defence against them without a rack of smarties which fully gimps its logistics role slots, therefore bigger drone bay + fighters needed

Serena Ku
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.10 19:13:00 - [608]
 

Edited by: Serena Ku on 11/10/2009 00:51:12
Originally by: Blueaise
problem is when i am being jumped by 2 x ragnaroks, 4-5 aeons and a couple of nyx and hels plus another erebus.

Cry some more. Twisted Evil On a serious note, that is perfectly acceptable death situation.

Quote:
permarun 2 x Cap reppers

Capital Armor Repairers are useless with the new HP figures.

Quote:
I only have 2 x guns in the top slots as i fitted 2 x gang mods, JP generator, DD and a cloak plus a remote cap repper

Realistically you do not use a capital remote armor repairer, leave that to carriers.

Quote:
i DD a aeon, it barely scratched the paint, he was probably buffer fit to hell and back. even concentrating all my fire on the Aeon im not even doing anything to him, DD x 2 and still not even 50% into his armor (this is with level 5 everything).

Supercapitals are not anti-supercapital weapons, in a fleet yes they add to the firepower to take one down, but never expect this alone. It's like shooting one dread with a dread; stalemate for the most part.

Quote:
the DD as a single shot, long reload mode should do exactly what it says on the tin. it should just kill whatever you point it at - call it the finger of god button

Doomsdays are not one-kill-anti-supercapital weapons. Also CCP mentioned possible superweapon additions...

Quote:
with such a small drone bay you have zero change of taking out a fighter bomber swarm, and without the doomsday AoE you have zero chance of actually reducing total incoming DPS when you are made primary (Which you pretty much always will be).

Bring support, more support! Also using a smartbomb helps.

Quote:
I'm surprised the titan, which is supposed to be a flagship has zero answer to defending against the new fighter bombers once its support fleet is gone?

Well, you're dead then...

Quote:

...the bonuses on turrets I don't see any point in at all, what is this supposed to be, a giant megathron?

It does it's job very well against other capital ships.

Xing Fey
Posted - 2009.10.10 21:32:00 - [609]
 

Originally by: Blueaise
...snip...



So you're complaining that the erebus is weak because it can't defeat 6 other titans and motherships at once?

0/10 troll

Josef Amerentev
Gallente
E.M.P. Industries
Malum Exuro
Posted - 2009.10.10 23:55:00 - [610]
 

i noticed that titans have 50% penalties to tracking. can that be removed?

Dark Matter4
Posted - 2009.10.11 00:41:00 - [611]
 

Due to the fact that super capitals always log on in space, they are also affected by the fact that certain bonuses applied while logging on in space end up as a chunk of shield hp missing. This Combined with the HP increase means, for shield tankers, massive amounts of lost effective HP for the first 30 minutes to 1 hour after logging on.

In one case this means a Leviathan logging on in space will be missing around 788,435 shield HP. Also should that leviathan be the bonus giver, its shield HP falls all the way to around 52% of capacity. This means that it will be missing around 2,365,307 shield HP. The time it takes for the Leviathan to solo regenerate this lose using its capital shield booster and 2x boost amps could be over an hour. Not only is it recharging its shields at this time but it must also stop every 15-20 minutes for its capacitor to recharge to continue boosting.

Armor tanking Super Capitals however do not have this problem. If they log off with full armor, they then have full armor on log in. Also when bonuses are they applied to armor, such as the 37.5% Erebus bonus, there is no chunk missing. Their current armor HP increases as their total armor capacity increases.

This means that an armor tanking super capital will be ready for battle immediately after logging in where a shield tanker must recharge for an hour or more before battle ready.

Sentinel Eeex
Caldari
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.10.11 00:42:00 - [612]
 

Originally by: Blueaise

This is now horribly broken imho, the problem is when i am being jumped by 2 x ragnaroks, 4-5 aeons and a couple of nyx and hels plus another erebus.


So, a dozen ships designed to kill supercapital ships are killing you.

And you think it is broken.

Jana Tanaka
Caldari
Tanaka Industries Inc.
Posted - 2009.10.11 01:22:00 - [613]
 


Major Hunt
Posted - 2009.10.11 06:23:00 - [614]
 

Some changes I think will benifit

1) a supercapital reping mod needs to be introduced. Capital reps just do a pathetic amount compared to the massive buffers you have given them, and the amount of firepower these types of ships will attract. These modules should be huge, and only able to fit to a supercapital hull. give them a 4-5x rep amount per cycle, otherwise all you have effectivly done to a titan/supercarrier is give them a huge buffer, and not add anything to the survivability. Titans will still die in minutes once tackled, and have nothing of scalability to help them with defence.

2) Titans need to have a massive structure hitpoint boost. Reasoning behind this is size/scale/mass. these things are 10x + the size of a supercarrier, yet the structure hitpoints is not scaled comparably. It should be a maraton to finish a Titan. give them 4 or 5 million structure hitpoints. Make that mass count for something.

3) dont hate me but a future superweapon should be an AOE DD. Since you going to remove insurance (good idea imo) and making titans more difficult to build, they still need to have some projection of power towards a hostile fleet for the risk involved. AOE weapon should be like ECM burst on a mothership. Titan needs to lock a target (250km target range), and then use the dd on that target. target gets hit for 500-1000k damage, and then a 15-30km (make it varible) AOE hits for splash damage based on sig radius, but effectivly causing 100k damage to a BS. 30 seconds imobilsed like current DD on sisi, 10 min reload/jump timer etc. The timing delay locking a target, + immobilisation would keep the Titan on the battlefield for a longer time, eliminating drive bys, and there would still be alot of ships left on the field. Eliminate multiple titan AOE DD's by making the AOE effect not stack

Isaac Starstriker
Amarr
Frontier Venture
Posted - 2009.10.11 07:01:00 - [615]
 

I find it hilarious that ppl have complained that we want our own tools for 0.0 and we can't even accept the Titan as one possible tool. Rolling Eyes

--Isaac

something somethingdark
Posted - 2009.10.11 08:41:00 - [616]
 

titan feedback :

1) T2 fits are comedy fits
2) titans still cant "tank"
3) buffer tank is more viable even on armor (lol regenerative plating)
4) new DD barely dents a "super" cap
5) dd + portal + cloak + 1-2 smartys + possible clone vat makes any weapon fit titan a comedy fit
6) drone bay is still insignificant


suggestions ?

lots
like usefull capital reps/boosters dedicated weapon slots... 10 fighters
stuff like that

Zeveron
Exiled Gathering
HELL4S
Posted - 2009.10.11 09:46:00 - [617]
 

Edited by: Zeveron on 11/10/2009 09:47:09
Originally by: Fire Hawk
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Originally by: Fire Hawk
Btw CCP are you gone boost the cpu on the levi and rag?


Ragnarok base CPU has been upped to 1050 for a while now.


What about the levi? please try to fit 7 citadel 1 Shield booster, 2 shield boost amp and an officer tank :((((((( it just doesnt fit


this!!!!!
And add to that 1-2 bcus :-)
EDIT: And what about the instant leviathan shield bonus?

Kotori
Gallente
Sacred Templars
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2009.10.11 11:27:00 - [618]
 

My 2 Cents:

Titans doing 10k + Dps with weapons. Whats the problem with this exactly? Thats maybe 3 Dreads worth of dps, for 30x the cost. 20 Battleships, for 40x the Cost. U get the Idea.
Superweapon I Havnet fully checked it out, but if the cycle time is still at around 300secs, then that is not good enough. It needs to be dropped to around a minute. Killing 1 dread every 5 minutes isnt exactly going to turn the tide of a fleet battle now is it. Of course it does come into play when using multiple Titans to nuke other super caps.
E.HP Is pretty nice. And will hopefully see titans fielded more. However this leads into my final point..

Titans are a dieing ship class
All of these changes are simply helping to remove titans from the game.
Say there are currently 200 Titans in game now. U can assume 50 will probably die in the first week after the patch, just fo rhte fun of it. Then ure gunna be losing 5-10 a week i would estimate from this point on, till we are left with just the titans that are used for logistical purposes.
The reason for this. is the sov changes.
Any alliance with any sense, will hold back with there titans, until such time as there arent too many left. And use them, to prevent anny other alliance creating more. With the removal of sov 4, and thee damage these thigns can do to a pos with there DD, Any capital shipyard plopped down, will be nuked within hours of it being discovered. Hence Although titans are becoming wtfpwnmobiles, they are a dieing race, as the chances of an alliance keeping their capital shipyard down for long enough to build one, are very very very slim.

Sorry for the poor grammar, too hungover to think about typing properly :P

Blueaise
Force Ratio
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.11 11:52:00 - [619]
 

Originally by: Sentinel Eeex
Originally by: Blueaise

This is now horribly broken imho, the problem is when i am being jumped by 2 x ragnaroks, 4-5 aeons and a couple of nyx and hels plus another erebus.


So, a dozen ships designed to kill supercapital ships are killing you.

And you think it is broken.



Nope, i think you and others missed my point by a .au

I expected the ship to die under those circumstances, what i'm surprised about is the pathetic amount of pain its capable of delivering in return - its like a giant whale being attacked by 3 sharks, it might be big but it has no teeth.

I'm agreeing with others who have posted earlier in the thread, before CCP just swings the nerfbat to stop titan spamming, they need to actually stop and think about what the proper role for this ship should be other than 70bn bullet sponge.

Looking at the KM the top 4/7 damage dealers where all aeons with FB's/citadel torps. out of the 7 damage dealers the lowest damage score of 113K hp out of 6.3m was an Erebus, followed by a rag and another rag. in return I concentrated fire on 1 mom and still didn't kill it.

with a swarm of 100 FB's the erebus has 5 x ogre II's to defend it, since CCP introduced FBs to kill titans, balance would be to ensure the titan had some credible way of defending against them. if you kill a FB swarm then the mom pilot always has an option to send more, SB's would be fine but there has already been more than one call from mom pilots to beef up FB's against smarties, so is 5 x ogre II's really the best a gallante titan can muster to defend against bombers?

if the role of titan is alliance FC, and its sat 200km off the field (Without DD aoe its gank is so horribly gimped that there is no point in fielding it for anything but logistics, which further up has been pointed out it also fails at), then the most likely threat it will face is FB's, therefore it should be able to field better drones in response.

I am also arguing since the DPS output of the titans is so weak it is better off with a more focused logistics role, better bonuses for RR and AW links would be preferable to a useless turret bonus since XL's cant hit very much very well and even when they do they do less DPS than a small force of BS's.

So what i think (and its only what i think since this is a feedback, and not based on just the specific T2 lolfit vs 7 supertitan gankfest on sisi).

1:Titan should be Alliance FC Supercarrier Role. nerf proliferation by making Skill training harder, i.e alliance commander level corporate management, more classes of warfare links all to l5 etc, more difficult and expensive to build.

2:Restore the DD AoE but put more restrictions on it to stop titan DD spamming i.e as suggested earlier specific DD effects such as neut every cap in radius, or warpscramble everyone on grid for 5 minutes - something less "iwin" but strategically important to help turn the tide of battle.

3: remove ridiculous gunboat pretensions and make it what it should be, a supercarrier ++ - drone BW and bay is much more useful than crap guns, moms now have their own class of FB so give titans the 20 x new class of defensive fighters - can kill bombers but only within say 50K of the titan the idea being you have to keep your titans out of range of the main battle.

4: logistics role, boost warfare links, boost RR and give it a RR bonus to other supercaps for range and rep amount, given the corp hanger et al it should be a floating pos, its a nonsense it should be a gimped carrier.

5: sort out the capital reppers, i cant figure out why still its better to fit BS sized officer modules to the "ultimate" flagship, if they had the tech to build the thing then surely they would have built uber rep systems.

6: they should have less gank for sure, but they should be insanely hard to kill to reflect dominion difficulty and cost of building. more structure points given its size.

but first CCP needs to decide role..

Vector Aeon
Ghosts of Ragnarok
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.10.11 12:07:00 - [620]
 

To the fools saying DD is underpowered:

Any coalition of size in 0.0 will drop 5-10 of these things at once. Take the 28 Coalition Titan video, focus that kind of fire on something, it will pop. Just because your solo Erebus or Avatar can't kill a supercarrier doesn't mean it's underpowered- in a live-fire situation you may expect up to 10 DDs coming in on that Aeon in a single volley, atop Titan-class guns and caps/support fleet.

I agree that T2 modules are silly on SiSi for these tests- suggest racial beacon points to dump 5-10 faction/officer rats repeatedly at these beacons. Or hell, just change belt spawn tables for SiSi, so we can go get the officer mods from asteroid belts. Or use redeeming system. But FFS, T2 titans are ridiculous for testing ship durability/damage.

Blueaise
Force Ratio
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.11 12:43:00 - [621]
 

Originally by: Vector Aeon
To the fools saying DD is underpowered:

Any coalition of size in 0.0 will drop 5-10 of these things at once..


so you didn't really listen to CCPs intentions when they said stopping titan spamming is exactly what this nerf is all about?

Are you forgetting that CCP is intentionally changing sov mechanics to make titans much harder to build, with a nerf to moon goo income plus supercap arrays harder to defend, titans will be a more costly proposition than before, and i dont think you have looked as closely at the damage done by the moms, sure you can one shot a mom with 5-10 titans. but then for the cost of the 5-10 titans you can have 20-40 moms spamming you with FB's - even with officer fits the FB's are going to chew threw your titans before you can kill all the moms.

this is excluding support fleets for the obvious reason that while you have cap/support fleet so probably does your opponent and that easily becomes a zero sum argument - what we are talking about strategic decision to spend the isk on fielding titans or other caps/ships, if 4 x moms can kill 1 titan for the loss of 1 mom then thats a much better victory for your opponent. simply spamming 10 titans onto one mom is not going to kill the other 700 odd FB's that are now chewing through your officer fit titan like butter - and the T2 point is slightly moot because the moms would also get a big boost from officer fit gear.

the difference between the FB's and the DD is the FB's will keep coming and can be replaced. you have a finite amount of DD's and time to use them, as your fleet gets decimated so too does that point where you have enough DD left to oneshot a mom.

in a war of attrition its easier to stand the mom/FB losses than the titans, so i think once someone fields those first fleet of 10 titans and they all start to die then it will be much harder to replace them than you think, if it isnt then you can bet CCP will swing the nerfbat again to ensure titan DD spamming isnt useful.

but please, if you think alliance leaders will use the same tactics as before and spam titans, then i look forward to seeing titan lossmails/tears/WTFCCP! with glee.

(BTW, i am not talking about solo titan usage, what i am arguing for is CCP balancing the DD nerf with actually making the titan a useful part of fleet warfare rather than just spamming them as some super-gunboat that needs 10 to kill 1 ship every 5 minutes 1/4 value of one titan....)



Adam Ridgway
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.11 14:25:00 - [622]
 

As it stands I thinks supercarriers are the winners of this patch, but sadlly SISI is not a good testing ground right now with all people going nuts and all the brainless people around. Sadlly because there are nice numbers to reproduce 'realistic' fleet battles, and this is what it all will pan out: How well can fighter-bombers be countered by support fleets.

This is they key to all the rebalance going on tbh. As it stands it will be much more cost effective to build supercarriers than titans... let's say a final cost of 15 bill. (but is more like 10 bill, but alliances will want to earn money with this given decrease in moon goo income, higher upkeep costs and more difficult defence etc.). This is no long such a big hit for a so well perfoming ship, even more if we factor alliance incomes (even with nerf will still be high).

Supercarriers can tank as well or better than titans (specially with gang linked titans in fleet as support cloaked or even CS), can put out a very effective spider tanks (these things are deadlly in gangs), are much more adaptative: big capacity for a number of drones, can use fighters (usefull agaisnt bs fleets) and can use fighter-bombers (absoluttly outstading agaisnt other capitals, and no, smartbombs serve nothing).

So what's left between supercarriers & world domination: support fleets, the avility of support fleets to clear FBs is what will balance it all, and that's something that I eprsonally didn't see tested so far. Then is cap warfare obviouslly, to break spider tanks, and this is a job again for support fleets.

But again, for titans, there are going to be two scenarios after dominion: alliances which can field multiple titans in the field, and alliances which don't. Alliances which can field one or a couple of titans are gonna use them mostlly for logistics or off-grid support (gang links).

But big alliances that will be able to field multiple titans at once can usually use them in frontline combat, specially with supercarrier/carrier support for repping power. In that situation 'lolfits' would not be mso lolfits anylonger, doing the damage of 2-3 dreads and oen shooting other caps, not so bad. You don't need every titan in the gang with ganglinks, jump portal & other random stuff, fitting 4 guns does not egt that bd actually. CCP is giving you more open options instead of the demanding 'defined role' everyone is demanding; IMo this is cooler and goes well with sandbox concept. Titans can do plenty of stuff, you do not need to be so strict about a fixed role.

I'm against the idea of buffing local tanks too much, is not going to increase your survivality that much anyway, you will be subject to cap warfare and you will still be dependant on support fleets, and that way should stay. Buffer gives you mroe than enough time for getting repped by other ships. But DD weapons in my opinion should hit for more damage, don't increase the ROF but increase a bit the alpha, a tanked dread with slaves i.e. can tank a DD, and I'm not sure it should be that way.

Also it will be interesting what does CCP do with short range capital weapons, as this may be key to counter supercarriers with dreads AND titans. Overall I like where CCP is heading, and there is time to refien balance a bit more.

William Caldon
Caldari
Golden Cross Enterprises
Posted - 2009.10.11 15:17:00 - [623]
 

FYI: DDs were never meant to kill supercaps. Check the devblog for crying out loud.

Yaay
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Posted - 2009.10.11 16:47:00 - [624]
 

Edited by: Yaay on 11/10/2009 16:49:35
Originally by: Kotori
My 2 Cents:

Titans doing 10k + Dps with weapons. Whats the problem with this exactly? Thats maybe 3 Dreads worth of dps, for 30x the cost. 20 Battleships, for 40x the Cost. U get the Idea.
Superweapon I Havnet fully checked it out, but if the cycle time is still at around 300secs, then that is not good enough. It needs to be dropped to around a minute. Killing 1 dread every 5 minutes isnt exactly going to turn the tide of a fleet battle now is it. Of course it does come into play when using multiple Titans to nuke other super caps.
E.HP Is pretty nice. And will hopefully see titans fielded more. However this leads into my final point..

Titans are a dieing ship class
All of these changes are simply helping to remove titans from the game.
Say there are currently 200 Titans in game now. U can assume 50 will probably die in the first week after the patch, just fo rhte fun of it. Then ure gunna be losing 5-10 a week i would estimate from this point on, till we are left with just the titans that are used for logistical purposes.
The reason for this. is the sov changes.
Any alliance with any sense, will hold back with there titans, until such time as there arent too many left. And use them, to prevent anny other alliance creating more. With the removal of sov 4, and thee damage these thigns can do to a pos with there DD, Any capital shipyard plopped down, will be nuked within hours of it being discovered. Hence Although titans are becoming wtfpwnmobiles, they are a dieing race, as the chances of an alliance keeping their capital shipyard down for long enough to build one, are very very very slim.

Sorry for the poor grammar, too hungover to think about typing properly :P


You know, sometimes I think people really don't think before they post something. You are confirming that thought.

Originally by: Blueaise


I'm agreeing with others who have posted earlier in the thread, before CCP just swings the nerfbat to stop titan spamming, they need to actually stop and think about what the proper role for this ship should be other than 70bn bullet sponge.

Looking at the KM the top 4/7 damage dealers where all aeons with FB's/citadel torps. out of the 7 damage dealers the lowest damage score of 113K hp out of 6.3m was an Erebus, followed by a rag and another rag. in return I concentrated fire on 1 mom and still didn't kill it.

with a swarm of 100 FB's the erebus has 5 x ogre II's to defend it, since CCP introduced FBs to kill titans, balance would be to ensure the titan had some credible way of defending against them. if you kill a FB swarm then the mom pilot always has an option to send more, SB's would be fine but there has already been more than one call from mom pilots to beef up FB's against smarties, so is 5 x ogre II's really the best a gallante titan can muster to defend against bombers?



Guns, Smartbombs, Support fleet, Drones, Support fleet, Carrier swarms with smart bombs, Support fleet.... You should maybe get the idea.

Shasis
Kernel of War
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.10.11 17:56:00 - [625]
 

Edited by: Shasis on 11/10/2009 18:07:33
Edited by: Shasis on 11/10/2009 17:57:57
I'll do it short :

- Please CCP, have a look at the shield tank supercaps. Not being at 100% shields while beeing fleeted is just awful (with fleet bonuses). This makes Leviathan and Ragnarok worse than the armor tanked titans. And with the new HP's, repairing for 20 minutes after joining a fleet or entering a system is...

Possible solution : when joining a fleet, use the % shield and keep it. Then if my levi is 89% shield when I log in, my levi will still be at 89% shield after joining the fleet, instead of loosing a lot of buffer HP.

- Please have a look on supercapitals shield tanker implants. While Slaves are very powerful, ours poor shield tankers are stuck with +5... Maybe add a new set, and if a +X% max shield (as slaves) is too powerful, use instead a +X% all resists ?

Adam Ridgway
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.11 19:15:00 - [626]
 

Originally by: Shasis
Edited by: Shasis on 11/10/2009 18:07:33
Edited by: Shasis on 11/10/2009 17:57:57
I'll do it short :

- Please CCP, have a look at the shield tank supercaps. Not being at 100% shields while beeing fleeted is just awful (with fleet bonuses). This makes Leviathan and Ragnarok worse than the armor tanked titans. And with the new HP's, repairing for 20 minutes after joining a fleet or entering a system is...

Possible solution : when joining a fleet, use the % shield and keep it. Then if my levi is 89% shield when I log in, my levi will still be at 89% shield after joining the fleet, instead of loosing a lot of buffer HP.

- Please have a look on supercapitals shield tanker implants. While Slaves are very powerful, ours poor shield tankers are stuck with +5... Maybe add a new set, and if a +X% max shield (as slaves) is too powerful, use instead a +X% all resists ?


Relaying this I mostlly tested with leaviathan & wyvern. Capital pilot buffer implants would be nice (I know how much of game balance them would break for subcap ships, but for capitals it would even out the play field).

As for the gang bonus, it gets a bit horrible yeah, with a couple of wyberns repping between them and a leviathan it took a while. The most problematic thing is armor tankers are allways ready to jump on the fight while shield tankers have an enormous disadvantage.

Dianabolic
Reikoku
Posted - 2009.10.11 22:10:00 - [627]
 

Originally by: Adam Ridgway
As for the gang bonus, it gets a bit horrible yeah, with a couple of wyberns repping between them and a leviathan it took a while. The most problematic thing is armor tankers are allways ready to jump on the fight while shield tankers have an enormous disadvantage.


What?

Shields, regenerate over time.

Armour, doesn't.

Yes, you have to buff yours a bit when you join gang, I will HAPPILY swap that ability for my armour to passive regenerate.

That's a REALLY good deal for shield tankers.

Vexont
Posted - 2009.10.11 22:23:00 - [628]
 

I was not in a titan for very long, but when I entered FFA2 (Capital ships) 5 titans DDed me and brought me into hull, then 2 Motherships launched fighters and popped me (The whole ordeal lasted around 2 minutes) It seems that as A titan is given this new beam laser, the game is balanced into another sort of panic as to weather or not to bring capital ships into enemy territory whom is known to have titans before bringing in ships to kill its cap, my point is, it is a very good thing to re-balance the dooms days from just being a "Win button".

About the new enhancements to the Titan's health, I think it helps protect it from most doomsday attacks (Most fleets won't be comprised of 5 titans all fit with doomsdays for max DPS).

All in all, A very good point to make in the new dominion expansion coming out, all I can do is applaud all the changes coming that I have seen on the test server.

Shasis
Kernel of War
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.10.11 23:01:00 - [629]
 

Originally by: Dianabolic


What?

Shields, regenerate over time.

Armour, doesn't.

Yes, you have to buff yours a bit when you join gang, I will HAPPILY swap that ability for my armour to passive regenerate.

That's a REALLY good deal for shield tankers.


(Example for the Ragnarok)
It takes 2 hours to regenerate the 15% bonus you're getting while in gang with the passive regen.

Which means that you enter the fiel after a jump with 15% less effective HP compared to the amor tankers... see the problem ? :)

Dianabolic
Reikoku
Posted - 2009.10.11 23:47:00 - [630]
 

Originally by: Shasis
Originally by: Dianabolic


What?

Shields, regenerate over time.

Armour, doesn't.

Yes, you have to buff yours a bit when you join gang, I will HAPPILY swap that ability for my armour to passive regenerate.

That's a REALLY good deal for shield tankers.


(Example for the Ragnarok)
It takes 2 hours to regenerate the 15% bonus you're getting while in gang with the passive regen.

Which means that you enter the fiel after a jump with 15% less effective HP compared to the amor tankers... see the problem ? :)


I do indeed see that shield users would like it not to work like this, I just don't think it would balance out against armour if it did.

It COULD take 2h, but if you were an armour tanker it would NEVER regen.


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