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The Sloth
Posted - 2004.10.22 17:19:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Clone 410
Make instajumps.

If you're running missions from an agent it doesn't take long to find out which systems you're going to be repeatedly asked to visit. Get a frigate with an MWD, make a few instajumps, bingo no more problem.

Jeez sometimes, I swear, I half expect to see a forum post here entitled "Someone help me wipe my arse, I can't work out how to do it"
Clone 410 I never would have figured out to use instajumps without your help. Thank you so much Rolling Eyes

Also, according to your character information you are either a 'forum alt' or the only missions that you have done in the game are those from your tutorial agent. If you are going to flame please post with your main or at least have some understanding as to how this will affect mission runners.

As to instajumps - the creation and the use of these will still decrease my enjoyment of the game. Am I goint to quit because of this change? No. I still find the game enjoyable - I will leave this game at such a time when I no longer find it enjoyable - whether that be 3 months or 5 years.

Originally by: X'Alor

but seriously, Sloth, I'm not gonna argue with you and not tryin to but your statement that it will dearly so dearly affect all missioners is a bit off base. Many of us have tried dualies and they just don't work for us so we won't use them in that manner, so please do not include all of us in your rant as this nerf will not affect "me" at all.

X'Alor you are of course entitled to your own opinion regarding the upcoming changes. This is what this thread is for - discussing the effect this may or may not have on mission runners. I thought I was making it pretty clear in my posts that I was not speaking on behalf of all mission runners. Please see the following quotes as examples:

Originally by: The Sloth
These missions, in my opinion at least, already took too long to complete. Removing the ability to use dual micro warp drives will only add to the tediousness and boredom that is characteristic of these missions at times.

Originally by: The Sloth

Unfortunately this upcoming change will also have some unintended victims and as a result it will severely diminish my enjoyment of the game. I hope CCP will come up with a solution.

Originally by: The Sloth
If you don't mind the changes then you are entitled to your opinion
Originally by: The Sloth
I for one will not enjoy the prospect of having to wait longer to actually play the game.


My intention as to this thread was see exactly what the effects of this change would mean to fellow mission runners. I was also attempting to provide CCP with some feedback as to how this change may affect, what I caterigorised as being, some unintended recipients. CCP can do as they please with this information - I have neither threatened or demanded anything from them. If the majority of mission runners do not find that this change detracts from their enjoyment of the game then so be it - travelling through space will just be one aspect of the game that I will find less enjoyable.


The Sloth.

Trader Klyde
Gallente
Posted - 2004.10.22 21:29:00 - [32]
 

The changes currently on Sisi (if they stay as-is) are pretty much only going to affect my large multi-drop missions which require using an indy or cruiser to complete in time for the bonus.

However, I've found that I still get a fairly good boost in my little indy using an MWD and AB, by firing off the MWD first and after a couple seconds fire off the AB. There is a brief period of overlap before the MWD shuts down, which still gives adequate boost for gating quickly.

And as to the insta's... some of the multi-drop missions run in the same area, but not the same mission, so it'd be a major pain to set up insta's for all of them. So far (with this agent) I've had 3 different routes to complete. Making insta's for all three would be a pain, and take much longer than just doing the missions normally.

In the end, at least to me, only the multi-drop missions will be darn hard to complete in time for the bonus. In fact, they may well become impossible to get bonus on... ugh

Hopefully, the use of multiple boosters will get sorted some, even if it winds up being a nerf such as using multiple mods of the same type is now.

Grinning Dragon
Amarr
Posted - 2004.10.22 22:10:00 - [33]
 

As far as I can tell, this will really only affect the Industrial couriers. For a long time I would use an Omen fitted with alpha expanders for the haulage, Maller for kills and the Indy only when I couldn't fit it into the Omen.
Lately, I've noticed my L3 agent has acquired an affection for metal scraps and garbage. These beastial bits of cargo require me to fit expanders on the indy to make it to the destination in one trip. Usually 4-8 jumps. (And her standing to me now is 41).

What is really needed for the traders and agent runners is the Blockade Runner class of Light Cruiser.
Such a ship would have a decent cargo capacity but the offensive slots would be removed to make room for better maneuvering drives and defensive modules.

Since it was mentioned, why do Indy's get up to 4.000 m/s for warp? I think a graduated scale would make much more sense. 4.000 for frigates, 3.000 for cruisers and Battleships and 2.000 for Indies/Dreadnoughts. We could argue over how to arrange such a scale, but it should be connected to ship mass and warp engine size.

Carry On!

Koomi
Amarr
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
Posted - 2004.10.25 09:52:00 - [34]
 

As it's been said in other threads regarding Dual MWD's instead of taking them away, they should try changing the way the bonuses stack instead. Using a + instead of a * is a lot more manageable and you would only get 1000% increase in max speed instead of 250000%

drunkenmaster
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.10.25 10:58:00 - [35]
 

you asked how it would affect other mission runners.

For me it won't. it won't make a jot of difference.

I fight the fight missions, rather than kite them. Call me stupid, but I actually like a bit of excitement.

I do the courier missions in the best setup ship I can find in the hangar, depending on the quantity. If it's a 3000+ cargo mission, I fit an indy out, and accept that indies are not designed to travel fast. It's really not that big of a problem. if I really thought that the amount of time I could save would be better spent doing something else, then I'd spend some time setting up bookmarks for the 3/4 different routes I get sent on.

But it doesn't bother me greatly.

I fitted twin MWD's a couple of times, but only to see how fast I could make a ship go.

marioman
Caldari
Caldari Macrominer Waste Management
United Corporations Against Macros
Posted - 2004.10.25 19:09:00 - [36]
 

I can think of one mission I'll be declining now, lol, my int security agent has made it a habit of slipping a random mission in there thats impossible to get the bonus even now...haul over 18000m3 of metal scraps anywhere from 5-8 jump away from my location, and every time ive gotten it its been to a different spot lol :\ theres no way in hell to fit 18000m3 in a badger 2 so its always a 2 trip mission even full kitted out for hauling...lol the farthest she has sent me was 8 jumps away, for a total of 24 jumps to complete the mission and another 8 to get back in my indy :(

GlimmerMan
Amarr
Posted - 2004.10.25 20:16:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Koomi
As it's been said in other threads regarding Dual MWD's instead of taking them away, they should try changing the way the bonuses stack instead. Using a + instead of a * is a lot more manageable and you would only get 1000% increase in max speed instead of 250000%


Last I heard 5*5*100% = 2500%, may wanna check your maths there buddy. Wink

S'Daria
Posted - 2004.10.25 22:50:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: S'Daria on 25/10/2004 22:54:49
Kill Missions: Probably very few agent runners will be affected. However, those that use dual MWD to out run the 1,500 m/s interceptors will be affected.

Courier Missions (Small <500m3): Probably won't be affected that much if at all. Many setups use a AB + MWD instead of dual MWD because the cap usage is too high and having to stop in the middle of a 60 au jump too many times invalidates the advantage.

Courier Missions (Medium 500-1,500m3): A properly fitted crusier or battleship can do these missions pretty well. Not having a Dual MWD setup will infact increase the our of warp times probably by 6-10 seconds each jump, which is probably an average of about 1-1.5 minutes added per mission.

Courier Missions (Large 1,500m3-3,000m3): This change will probably affect these mission runners the most since their low slots are using cargo expanders instead of overdrives. I use a Bestower to do these missions and my top speed went from 660 m/s to 486 m/s (10-11 seconds more each jump). The worst mission, the multiple courier mission, which averages about 16 jumps for me will take on average about 4.5 more minutes to complete. The 45 minute time period to get the bonus will probably never be attained.

Courier Missions (Huge 3,000m3-10,000m3): Most industrials that put nothing but cargo expanders can do these missions. However they move less than 200 m/s, maybe 250 m/s with dual MWD. The speed difference for these haulers will be most significant since they have a lower base speed of around 150 m/s. Each jump for these runners may take upwards of an additional 30 seconds, which means any of these missions you where not finishing at least 10 minutes prior will probably not be able to be finsihed within the bonus time period.

Courier Missions (Gigantic 10,000-30,000m3): Only the most dedicated haulers with a full set of cargo expanders can do these missions in one jump; the higher end requiring significant skill and equipment. Like the Huge haulers these mission runners probably have a base speed of 150 m/s. Using dual MWD setup will use up all your capacitor by the time you get to the gate and thus when you jump on the other side, if the jump is long, you'll have to stop to recharge. I think most mission runners in this area don't use dual MWD because of there problem with their capactior.

Courier Missions (Colosal 30,000-90,000m3): These haulers are doing agent Level IV missions and will require multiple runs to complete a mission. These missions are impossible to finish within the alotted amount of time, even when only doing a 4-5 jump turnaround. Because these missions will require 15-30 jumps to complete and they are fitted for the largest cargo holds they probably won't be affected. When running at the maximum cargo capacity the largest cargo holders will use up all their cap and thus not have enough to make the next jump without having to stop. Although those pilots with the skills and equipment to use dual MWD will be the most affected by this change for these gigiantic mission types.

Trade and Mining: Like courier for moving materials around, but less so since you can stockpile the materials to complete the missions.



Conclusion: Seems this change will really mostly affect the medium-sized industrial haulers (1,500-3,000m3), the most; anywhere from 1-5 minutes added to each mission. The small faster haulers using frigates or cruisers will see a slight increase in their jumps using an AB+MWD instead of a dual MWD.

--

I wish MWD followed the same stacking rules as other modules instead of just saying they can't have multiple modules installed. Perhaps if they followed this stacking algorithm:

# of Base Speed (m/s)
MWD Speed Bonus 100 150 200 250
===============================================
1 500% 500 750 1000 1250
2 849.49% 849 1274 1699 2124
3 1,110.92% 1110 1666 2222 2777
4 1,309.89% 1310 1965 2620 3275
5 1,460.41% 1460 2191 2921 3651
6 1,571.33% 1571 2357 3143 3928
7 1,648.78% 1649 2473 3298 4122
8 1,697.24% 1697 2546 3394 4243
I think the above would make the most sence (used Sigma(100%-LOG10(# of MWD))).





Koomi
Amarr
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
Posted - 2004.10.26 09:06:00 - [39]
 

:) ok 500*500 wasnt the math i was looking for, thought it looked a little wrong ugh

Rancid Mare
Caldari
Posted - 2004.10.26 11:46:00 - [40]
 

god awful call by ccp....

instead of spending half my time doing boring missions, i will be spending it travling from warp to gate or warp to station....

sure sound like an improvement to me.....Rolling Eyes
all becasue some skillless people are un-able to gank you if your not sitting still with your eyes closes....

madness.

News
Minmatar
Slacker Industries
The Boat Violencing Initiative
Posted - 2004.10.26 18:20:00 - [41]
 

My experience is that I can do 90% of courier missions in my Probe (over 600m3 cargo hold with good expanders) or a smaller/faster frig. I never fit more than one mwd on those anyway, so I'm not affected by this change. For courier missions that require a bigger cargo hold, I just break out an indy with overdrives in lowslots, and alt-tab untill I reach my destination.

I read in one of the posts that this change will mean it'll take 1 minute longer for the average mission to be completed. All I would like to say to that is: OH NOES! Shocked

Urkl
Gallente
D'Ahrk Prophesy
Posted - 2004.10.26 21:17:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Clone 410
Make instajumps.

If you're running missions from an agent it doesn't take long to find out which systems you're going to be repeatedly asked to visit. Get a frigate with an MWD, make a few instajumps, bingo no more problem.

Jeez sometimes, I swear, I half expect to see a forum post here entitled "Someone help me wipe my arse, I can't work out how to do it"


That suggestion does squat for traders. How many possible route combinations are there in a single region for which one would have to make BMs? FROM each and every system TO each and every system? This nerf isnt just about needlessy and adversely affecting courier mission runners, it hoses industrial ships in general IMO.

If the dMWD problem is a PVP one, then FFS find a solution to the PVP problem and stop adversely affecting unrelated ships, players and playstyles. Classic "bad solution" here.


Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2004.10.26 23:25:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 26/10/2004 23:29:15
IF someone is doing the "colossal" level 4 missions, they are going to need thier corp mates helping them if they want a chance at the bonus. I believe this is how it was intended.
I have never felt the need to use dual MWD on an indy for agent missions, instead I use a pair of 10mn AB's. I really can't remember the last time I failed to get the time bonus on a mission. Months and months ago, and probably do to a node crash rather than anything else.
And yes, my standings with my agents are in the 9.5 range for the most part.
Also, the last level 4 courier mission I did had a reward of 11mil, with a bonus of around 250K. Yeah, it think it may be worth taking a few more minutes to complete missions of this nature. And if I fail to get the time bonus once in a while... oh well. Very Happy

Rattman
Posted - 2004.10.26 23:26:00 - [44]
 

I am all for the dual mwd nerf.

It maybe an some what of an actuall challenge to get the time bonus now. Instead of just being an automatic freebie

Rattman

Thraxll
Minmatar
D'Ahrk Prophesy
Posted - 2004.10.27 03:59:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
I have never felt the need to use dual MWD on an indy for agent missions, instead I use a pair of 10mn AB's.


From what I've read on the Shiva forum, you can't do that anymore either. If I'm wrong here someone please correct me.




S'Daria
Posted - 2004.10.27 04:36:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Also, the last level 4 courier mission I did had a reward of 11mil, with a bonus of around 250K. Yeah, it think it may be worth taking a few more minutes to complete missions of this nature. And if I fail to get the time bonus once in a while... oh well. Very Happy
Is this a typo? 11mil per mission?


XEphod
Posted - 2004.10.27 20:10:00 - [47]
 

Hello everyone, I'm a fairly new player at about 1 month here. I'm still trying to learn things in EVE as it stands now, so haven't devoted much time to reading about Shiva. I read a reply from someone saying he uses dual MWD to keep ahead of rats on kill missions. I'm throwing my 2 cents worth in with that post. When I first got standing to do level 3 kill missions, I couldn't do most of them because I hadn't trained MWD yet. As a nOOb, I don't have the skills to tank shields and armor like the old-timers do and I need that speed to avoid being swarmed and swatted like a fly. So from what I'm reading here, sounds like I will be penalized on being able to take kill missions until I have about 10x the skill I have now. If it is going to take a noob 3 months to get to level 3 kill missions, that doesn't sound very fun. At this point in the game, PvP is far in the future for me, so dropping dual mwd will have a large impact on me and my enjoyment of the game as I like doing lvl 3 kill missions, but won't be able to do it once Shiva get's here. Sad

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2004.10.27 21:46:00 - [48]
 

You don't need dual mwd to do missions, if you can't do em without those, I suggest getting some training/help from corpmates or the like, cause well... you ehm, need some.

And a single mwd is more then enough for courier missions. ( of the correct size that is, dual 1mn mwd on a indy is just well freaky )

Trader Klyde
Gallente
Posted - 2004.10.27 22:16:00 - [49]
 

For agent runners it's not just a "dual MWD" problem. On Sisi you can't use any combo of speed boosters, period. Once you activate the second booster the first one deactivates once it's timer runs out.

This won't hinder most of my missions... only the ones requiring the use of an indy, and having multiple drop locations. Using carefully selected routes still barely completes in time for bonus.

Many of the routes vary so making insta's would be a challenge all itself. Confused

If dual MWD PvP is unbalanced, simply make the sig so large a BS could hit a dual MWD INTY with large guns. For agent runners, and traders, sig doesn't make any difference. In an indy you're a sitting duck anyway.

Lots of folks enjoy using extra speed for the most boring aspect of the game... travel.Smile

Trinsia
Posted - 2004.10.27 22:27:00 - [50]
 

I really don't like this Nerf and that is what it is.
To you that say OWW crying over 10 seconds at a gate, if you ever did missions an got your fith 22 jump mission you would be screaming too. My mission are from 3-36 jumps 8-12 on average this will add up to alot of time real fast taking away from my normaly short play time as it is!

Just my 2 isk, I dont like it not one bit!Mad

Farjung
Gallente
TAOSP
Posted - 2004.10.28 14:37:00 - [51]
 

I'll just throw my limited experience and opinion in.

I've been running a lot of courier missions for about two weeks for Inner Zone Shipping. I spent about 8 hours bookmarking the area in question (60 odd bookmarks), but the end result is that for a round trip running three level 3 agents simultaneously (usually 12-16 jumps, worst case about 28), I only need to make a warp that isn't covered by an insta for 3 or 4 warps per trip. I currently use a dual mwd setup on an iteron 3, admittedly, and this nerf will cost me a good 8 seconds on each non-bmed warp. But to be honest, 30 seconds out of a round trip that takes on average 15 minutes anyway, isn't a huge deal for me, and I doubt I'll even notice it.

An OT aside to Xephod: I've been playing a total of 1 month and 9 days, and I can handle level 3 kill missions more than adequately with an armour tanking blasterax setup and 8 ogres. I could handle most of them (bar Mordu's and a couple of others) pretty reasonably a week ago without the ogres, before I had trained drones 5. I would have been able to do them earlier if I'd not spent close to a week training learning skills up a few levels. Now I'm going to spend the next 5-6 weeks training the rest of the learning/adv learning up while burning through level 3 kills, no dual MWD involved.

X'Alor
Posted - 2004.10.28 14:43:00 - [52]
 

HEHEHEHEHE Laughing

My last security agent gave me more hauling missions than kill mission by about 2:1 and one that he gave often was a round trip of 32 jumps that required a oman full of hugh expanders or a hauler full of overdrives.

most his haul mission about 20 round trip. even his kill missions were set atleast 5 jumps away for 10 jump round trip minimum for kill missions. rarely got in system mission and even most the typical in system kill missions for most agents were 1 to 3 jumps away.

hmmmmmm.

did i complain, no. that's what that agent was programmed for. I ran him to superb like a good little mission runner would without complaining about the tasks at hand and move on.

no my next is almost all in system kill missions. bonuses and rewards have about doubled to tripled.

and my first lvl 3 mission reward and bonus reward of 600+k and over 1.2 mill in bounties. CHA'ching

rarely sends me over 3 jumps away on his once in every 25 mission hauls. 90% missions in system almost no traveling.

he forces me to do terrible things to the order of Mordu, mercenary commander, blockade, berserk, mordu, blocade, fight for the establishment, berserk, blockade, mercenary commander, what goes around, blockade, haul this 2 jumps, mordu, blockade......man it's just terrible, rotten agent

so even if your a courier and getting long hauls........one might find that if they relocate to another hauler type agent........he just might have shorter loops that would cut your time more than using dual mwd or dual set up.

I would say from my experiences with running long periods of time with agents.........at the first mission given that is over 12 jumps round trip. LEAVE HIM if your not looking to travel as he will have more misson just as long and plenty longer. agents tend to be different in that regard. some send you all ove eve universe and some don't. Safe to assume that is a standard for all agents no matter type or devision.




Urkl
Gallente
D'Ahrk Prophesy
Posted - 2004.10.28 21:54:00 - [53]
 

I think everyone's calculations are way off in terms of how much xtra time it'll take to cover the distance to gates with only 1 speed booster. Everyone is merely accounting for difference in top speed without taking into account the big difference in acceleraton that a 2nd booster adds.

IOW, it takes a single-booster ship much longer to reach top speed than a dual-booster ship, thus the extra time is actually longer than people are anticipating/calculating.


Tion
Amarr
Port Royal Independent Kontractors
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2004.10.29 18:23:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: XEphod
Hello everyone, I'm a fairly new player at about 1 month here. I'm still trying to learn things in EVE as it stands now, so haven't devoted much time to reading about Shiva. I read a reply from someone saying he uses dual MWD to keep ahead of rats on kill missions. I'm throwing my 2 cents worth in with that post. When I first got standing to do level 3 kill missions, I couldn't do most of them because I hadn't trained MWD yet. As a nOOb, I don't have the skills to tank shields and armor like the old-timers do and I need that speed to avoid being swarmed and swatted like a fly. So from what I'm reading here, sounds like I will be penalized on being able to take kill missions until I have about 10x the skill I have now. If it is going to take a noob 3 months to get to level 3 kill missions, that doesn't sound very fun. At this point in the game, PvP is far in the future for me, so dropping dual mwd will have a large impact on me and my enjoyment of the game as I like doing lvl 3 kill missions, but won't be able to do it once Shiva get's here. Sad


Noobs shouldn't be able to do LvL three missions. In Shiva they will be a lot harder, so you couldn't do them any way. Stick to lvl 2 missions. We all worked hard to get where we are. Cause your skills aren't as good you'll just have to wait like the rest of us did.

For every ying there's a yang in eve, you'll just have to work it out boys.

Krogo
Gallente
Mercurialis Inc.
Posted - 2004.10.30 14:02:00 - [55]
 

This change does bother me as i ve been using a dual MWD cruiser to do my agent missions. Makes travel fast. With good skills power usage is not to bad.

Now i understand the fact that one needs to balance out pvp combat but the downside is that in the long run with further needs to tweak speed in pvp us mission runners will fall back to having to wait 4 minutes to run to a gate.

Some very nice missions have a lot of jumps to be made and in a short time (usually 40 minutes) now with the loss of speed I will miss more and more often the lucrative time bonus. And that tends to annoy me.

Anyway i hope they figure out an alternative to not allowing to active 2 speed modules at the same time.

Krogo

Violent Sky
Posted - 2004.10.31 16:28:00 - [56]
 

Greetings folks!

You should kill the Level 3 agent that gave you that crazy courier mission X'alor!

There are ways to shorten the time and effort associated with agent missions, and not have to worry about the upcoming nerf, and don't have to think about speed beyond what they need during combat, rather than a need for speed to jump and dock:

1: Try to find one in a system that has as many gates to neighboring systems in the SAME constellation as possible, and not one that is five jumps from other systems in the same constellation. A central location, since Agents only send you in the same constellation for kill missions 99% of the time, this helps.

2: If the above is not possible or not desirable, make sure that the agent is as high in quality as possible. This should decrease the number of jumps for KILL missions.

3: If you can find a 'Dead end' constellation or one that only has access from one other Constellation, almost all of your courier missions will be in that neighboring constellation and not any further up the line. And sometimes, in the FIRST system w/ a station.

4: Last, make Instajumps and Instadock points for the whole constellation. I know this doesn't help Traders, but it helps you pump out missions and makes working for multiple agents easier. I like to have this in low security areas, so if Pirates try to jump or chase me, I have a much better chance of getting away.

Note that these are observations from the current Version of EVE and not from Singularity. It may very well change, but this is the system that I use, and I make enough cash, for me atleast.

Good luck out there!

X'Alor
Posted - 2004.11.01 16:19:00 - [57]
 

hehe.

I did kill her, beat her silly with my massive work"load" I gave her. her orifice was in shambles after i got thru with her. ran the cr4p outta her. schooled her to about superb and left the blood B***H never to return my services again. Left her used, abused, bored out, and all wore out.....hehehehe

it did suck tho, was brutal mission(declined it often). it was a loop travel too, not a to x system and back mission. go here pick this up and go allll the way around to there, drop off and loop back thru around the back entrance to home system.

no way around it and the commodity was an exploited one at about 300k a unit and i needed like 376 of them. i couldn't buy it elsewhere to complete quicker, would have cost me like 10 mill or something outrageous.

prolly did it half the time andn declined other half, i don't like declining missions if at all possible.


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