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Excellent Roze
Caldari
Winged Victory Corporation
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2009.10.12 23:07:00 - [811]
 

with these changes the gila is looking more and more like a second ishtar crossed with the missile and shield abilities of a drake...

i'm not complaining but in the interest of balancing it does seem a little extreme to take it from one end of the spectrum to the other (abysmal to omg it hurts)

really loving the blood raiders bonusses though, bhaalgorn = armor tanking nightmare with nos and webs Shocked

so much for the nightmare being the number one pirate ship to own (in terms of firepower anyway)

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.13 00:06:00 - [812]
 

yeah th gila is an interesting one, my thinking is ccp are looking at intorudicng another pirate faction who will be comparitable with the old gurista ships as they are now on TQ.

Stealthbug
Posted - 2009.10.13 00:24:00 - [813]
 

Originally by: Excellent Roze

so much for the nightmare being the number one pirate ship to own (in terms of firepower anyway)


Nightmare still has it's uses for pure DPS. it, overall, does more damage. Not only that, the Nightmare can use tachyon beams, something that if you used on the Bhaalgorn, you'll never be in neut/nos/web range. So overall, you will almost always get better DPS out of the Nightmare. Tracking is better on the Nightmare too.

Zheren Huli
Above the Law
ESSE Imperium
Posted - 2009.10.13 01:45:00 - [814]
 

Originally by: Cersei

I can already see the hordes of awesome vindicator pilots ejecting from their vindicators to jump into abaddons, maelstroms and mallers which we all know can break all tanks without fitting neuts. And if it wasn't for that they'd still stop flying vindicators because changing the mwd cap bonus to web strength bonus is such a huge nerf.

Man, vindicator will become an absolutely awesome ship, able to dispatch entire nano gangs with ease and still hold its own against most other bs.


you shouldnt be sarcastic when you utterly fail at it.

the thing is simple that when i buy a ship that costs 10 times more than an abaddon i expect it to be more useful. the damage is about equal so why should i? not to mention the kronos at same cost with active tank...

"to dispatch entire nanogangs"...yeah lol in what dreamworld do you live? if the pilot aint total ******s they will just stay out the webrange as they no the shipbonus and blaster boats in general *megathron + neut + web = bad mkay?*.
Not to mention that you can reach about the same effect with an overheated scrambler so whatever.

If you fit an officer web on it sure it would be a different thing but unlike the kronos it got the huge tank deficit which makes it not worth it *except for those *****s who fly arround with a falcon alt all the time anyway but hey ecm is kronos only weakpoint you can ecm your enemy falcon, so again no reason to fit an officer web great*

Stealthbug
Posted - 2009.10.13 15:40:00 - [815]
 

Originally by: Zheren Huli
Originally by: Cersei

I can already see the hordes of awesome vindicator pilots ejecting from their vindicators to jump into abaddons, maelstroms and mallers which we all know can break all tanks without fitting neuts. And if it wasn't for that they'd still stop flying vindicators because changing the mwd cap bonus to web strength bonus is such a huge nerf.

Man, vindicator will become an absolutely awesome ship, able to dispatch entire nano gangs with ease and still hold its own against most other bs.


you shouldnt be sarcastic when you utterly fail at it.

the thing is simple that when i buy a ship that costs 10 times more than an abaddon i expect it to be more useful. the damage is about equal so why should i? not to mention the kronos at same cost with active tank...

"to dispatch entire nanogangs"...yeah lol in what dreamworld do you live? if the pilot aint total ******s they will just stay out the webrange as they no the shipbonus and blaster boats in general *megathron + neut + web = bad mkay?*.
Not to mention that you can reach about the same effect with an overheated scrambler so whatever.

If you fit an officer web on it sure it would be a different thing but unlike the kronos it got the huge tank deficit which makes it not worth it *except for those *****s who fly arround with a falcon alt all the time anyway but hey ecm is kronos only weakpoint you can ecm your enemy falcon, so again no reason to fit an officer web great*


No.

Ulstan
Posted - 2009.10.13 19:28:00 - [816]
 

Originally by: Excellent Roze
with these changes the gila is looking more and more like a second ishtar crossed with the missile and shield abilities of a drake...


The gila gets 3 unbonused launchers.

The drake gets 7 bonused launchers.

If the gila has the missile abilities of a drake, then the raven has the turret capabilities of an armageddon.

ZigZag Joe
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2009.10.13 21:20:00 - [817]
 

Originally by: Ulstan
Originally by: Excellent Roze
with these changes the gila is looking more and more like a second ishtar crossed with the missile and shield abilities of a drake...


The gila gets 3 unbonused launchers.

The drake gets 7 bonused launchers.

If the gila has the missile abilities of a drake, then the raven has the turret capabilities of an armageddon.


Shield abilities. Learn to read.

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2009.10.13 21:48:00 - [818]
 

Originally by: ZigZag Joe
Originally by: Ulstan
Originally by: Excellent Roze
with these changes the gila is looking more and more like a second ishtar crossed with the missile and shield abilities of a drake...


The gila gets 3 unbonused launchers.

The drake gets 7 bonused launchers.

If the gila has the missile abilities of a drake, then the raven has the turret capabilities of an armageddon.


Shield abilities. Learn to read.
MISSILE AND SHIELD ABILITIES.

Learn to read.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.13 21:52:00 - [819]
 

shield abilities are one thing. Boosting em needs to happen especially gallente ships

Von Kapiche
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.13 23:53:00 - [820]
 

Well, now we probably won't be able to test them any further, guess I can jot down some musings.

* Daredevil: damage bonus isn't really inline with the others...
* Succubus/Phantasm: leave 'em alone, did you tweak them before or after you modified the others?
* Machariel: well, I PvP'd in it and PvE'd in it, and after trying a few things out I could have lived without a low and really done with an extra mid, but it made sense to shield tank it. I guess time will tell if a nanoBS works now.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.14 02:52:00 - [821]
 

daredevil perhaps needs a range boost rather than dps boost
Succubus. 30% sensor boost
Machariel well strip out the perhaps another 5% mwd boost and a 2% shield boost and erduce its armour by 5%

Tiger's Spirit
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.14 08:59:00 - [822]
 

Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 14/10/2009 09:09:10

Some rebalanced ship it's overpowered or too weak.
Most of laser user ships get moarrrrr, hidden amarr boost again.
Most of projectile user ships is nerfed.

Bhaalgorn wtf ????????? more neut,web bonuses, 4gunsx100%dmg (+damage boost)

Gila it's a joke ? 30k shield passive tank with 70-80% all resist + over 600 DPS ? WTF ? This is just a cruiser, not a BC or BS.
Better than many t3 scanner/cloakership. Better than ishtar.
CCP made it the moarrr plexing/anomaly ship.

Stealthbug
Posted - 2009.10.14 13:38:00 - [823]
 

Edited by: Stealthbug on 14/10/2009 13:38:48
Originally by: Tiger's Spirit
Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 14/10/2009 09:09:10

Some rebalanced ship it's overpowered or too weak.
Most of laser user ships get moarrrrr, hidden amarr boost again.
Most of projectile user ships is nerfed.

Bhaalgorn wtf ????????? more neut,web bonuses, 4gunsx100%dmg (+damage boost)

Gila it's a joke ? 30k shield passive tank with 70-80% all resist + over 600 DPS ? WTF ? This is just a cruiser, not a BC or BS.
Better than many t3 scanner/cloakership. Better than ishtar.
CCP made it the moarrr plexing/anomaly ship.


Moarrrrr common English please; thanks.
And these are faction ships. They're supposed to be amazing. Next time you want to spend 100mil on a cruiser and have it suck, let me know.

A Ingus
Posted - 2009.10.14 14:15:00 - [824]
 

Edited by: A Ingus on 14/10/2009 14:22:50
Originally by: Stealthbug
Edited by: Stealthbug on 14/10/2009 13:38:48
Originally by: Tiger's Spirit
Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 14/10/2009 09:09:10

Some rebalanced ship it's overpowered or too weak.
Most of laser user ships get moarrrrr, hidden amarr boost again.
Most of projectile user ships is nerfed.

Bhaalgorn wtf ????????? more neut,web bonuses, 4gunsx100%dmg (+damage boost)

Gila it's a joke ? 30k shield passive tank with 70-80% all resist + over 600 DPS ? WTF ? This is just a cruiser, not a BC or BS.
Better than many t3 scanner/cloakership. Better than ishtar.
CCP made it the moarrr plexing/anomaly ship.


Moarrrrr common English please; thanks.
And these are faction ships. They're supposed to be amazing. Next time you want to spend 100mil on a cruiser and have it suck, let me know.


Stealth, the english in his post is not bad. Is it only the use of "moarrr" to which you object? Also, for many people on here english is not their native language.

Anyway, while I disagree about the blood raider ships being overpowered, he is correct about the Gila. It is way over the top. I can fly the thing, just don't think it's right or good for the game, balance wise. Ridiculous passive tanks and bonused larger than BS dronebays on a cruiser at 100mil? If that's all the Gila will cost why train into tech II cruisers for an Ishtar? Neither ship are insurable. The Ishtar is essentially made obsolete. See someone in a Ishtar and laugh, what a fool. Hell with one of these forget about training BC and BS at all. Drake, Raven, Domi, who need em. Get an alt with Gallente and Caldari cruiser 4, drone, missile, and shield skills and go to the bank on level 4s.

Not the same situation with an Ashimmu. Curse is still worth training. And both will get blown up in pvp while the Gila will live forever in level 4s.

The Gurista ships are a travesty not only to pve, but to pvp as well. Pretty much no ship in the game can break the tank of them solo before it succumbs to the lesser dps of the Gurista ship (see new Rattlesnake). And I haven't even started on my backstory arguments again. Laughing

Kaito Haakkainen
Posted - 2009.10.14 14:19:00 - [825]
 

I can see little reason to fly the Succubus or Phantasm over their faction or t2 counterparts and the Nightmare will continue to see use almost solely as a mission boat. These changes have brought unique flavour to all the other pirate ships while leaving Sansha pure tank and gank.

Provided they deliver on the tank and gank extremely well for their loss of uniqueness then it's balanced, but given that this is a role filled by so many other ships is it really good. When you can tank and spank to a similar level and significantly lower cost in Amarr ships, or achieve respectable laser DPS alongside neut and web bonuses with Blooder ships then why, when operating outside of hi-sec missions, should you choose Sansha... other than the fact that they look fantastic?

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2009.10.14 17:01:00 - [826]
 

Machariel could do with a touch more cap IMO, maybe 75-100 more base? Also as i've said before - 50% falloff bonus is a nice thought, but ontop of tracking enhancers, computers and rigs, its wasted. (I suggested the following bonuses before - Special bonus - 30% falloff, Minmatar bonus - 7.5% ROF, Gallente bonus 5% damage)

Vindicator...I see no point in a 10km 90% web, Anything that needs slowed down that much within 10-15km you're going to be hard-pressed to hit with Neutrons, Id prefer a 20km 60% web, akin to the Bhaalgorn, personally. Since that would allow you to close in quicker because your opponent is slowed down sooner. Just throwing it out there...

Bhaalgorn - No real complaints. Does what its supposed to do. Enough utilities for some NOS/Neutralisers, enough mids for webs, enough remaining slots to put on enough guns to do damage.

Nightmare - Again, no real complaints. Though i'd be tempted to say drop a low for a 8th mid and give it its missing highslot... That could really be interesting. Though i get the feeling alot of people would highly disagree.

Rubius Caesar
Posted - 2009.10.14 17:22:00 - [827]
 

I like most of these changes.

Sansha: Why nerf them again? Their utility slots are a novelty, not overpowered. I don't think they're unbalanced, they just balance out better for PVE at the moment.

Blood Raiders: Excellent! The Bhaalgorn needs to reach out and web people while the cruor needs to pin them up close. Plus the increased med and high slot availability means you don't have to sacrifice EVERYTHING ELSE to do your job correctly.

Guristas: Awesome. The worm is just really, really fun. The Gila is an awesome idea, I fought one on the test server in my Sacrilege and beat it but the fight was nice and close. I strongly suggest downsizing the drone bay to 300m3, it'll still serve its purpose correctly but be more balanced with those amazing ship bonuses. That and it'll be more realistic. The Rattlesnake is good, put it through more testing and IF it needs a balance change, it should almost certainly be a torp damage bonus. It could also stand to lose a low-slot.

Serpentis: The speed bonuses were pretty nice, you know? Webbing is good, but a bonus to hybrid falloff is horrible, just horrible. I would consider a tracking bonus(make them all 10%, even the Vindicator) and a straight-up 5% velocity bonus. That way the tracking doesn't stack with webbing, but still gives them a beautiful niche worth paying big bucks for. I want to see a super-tracking battleship, I really do. The Daredevil could either fit this scheme or stay the way it is now, either way works fine.

Angel Cartel: Angel ships have always just been good. They don't have a niche, they're just good. I think it would be totally fine to bump the Cynabal and Machariel's falloff bonus to 15% per level, give them the unusual but fun niche of falloff kiting.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.10.14 18:22:00 - [828]
 

Originally by: A Ingus
he is correct about the Gila. It is way over the top. I can fly the thing, just don't think it's right or good for the game, balance wise. Ridiculous passive tanks and bonused larger than BS dronebays on a cruiser at 100mil? If that's all the Gila will cost why train into tech II cruisers for an Ishtar? Neither ship are insurable. The Ishtar is essentially made obsolete. See someone in a Ishtar and laugh, what a fool. Hell with one of these forget about training BC and BS at all. Drake, Raven, Domi, who need em. Get an alt with Gallente and Caldari cruiser 4, drone, missile, and shield skills and go to the bank on level 4s.


Nobody cares about these things' performances in PVE.
Nobody cares about the "backstory".
Nobody passive-tanks in PVP.

A Ingus
Posted - 2009.10.14 20:14:00 - [829]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III

I don't care about these things' performances in PVE.
I don't care about the "backstory".
I don't passive-tanks in PVP.


Fixed.

And you said in the other thread that tanking is not a role. Yet you seem to want the ship to stay the way it is proposed?

Abrazzar
Posted - 2009.10.14 20:31:00 - [830]
 

I still want to see Guristas turned into stealth turret sniper ships. At least that would make them unique. Sad

Alix dcat
Posted - 2009.10.14 21:18:00 - [831]
 

here's my take on the guristas modifications....

Keep:
Pirate and Caldari bonus
Take out:
100 to 200m3 of drone bay on the Gila and alsoo some bandwidth(down to 50m3 maby)
Turn:
the Gallente bonus to a drone bay only bonus. I could see here 5/10/25m3 Worm/Gila/ratle respectively
Add:
A additionnal launcher to all ship but without adding any high slot

I did not try any of those ship on the test server but by reading all the post this is what seem to me a good balance betwen Pirate, Gallente and Caldari. Giving them the possibility of good dps if you go missile and/or drone but without going to broken like the Gila is....

Grarr Bexx
Posted - 2009.10.14 23:23:00 - [832]
 

Sansha are a joke now. You boost the Blood Raiders up to a level where they have TWO bonuses on top of those of the Sansha ships, and then you nerf their EHP? What are you smoking?

Stealthbug
Posted - 2009.10.15 00:13:00 - [833]
 

Originally by: Grarr Bexx
Sansha are a joke now. You boost the Blood Raiders up to a level where they have TWO bonuses on top of those of the Sansha ships, and then you nerf their EHP? What are you smoking?


In all fairness, Sansha still do more damage, and they have better tracking AND fit tachyons, something Blood Raiders will not be using if they want to stay in neut/web range.

But I agree, Sansha does need a cookie if it wants to compete in the PvP realm with Blood Raiders' ability to neut and web. Perhaps give them a 125/125 drone bay/bandwidth? i dunno.

Spc One
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.15 00:51:00 - [834]
 

hmm..
Perhaps Vindicator deserves 175m3 cargo space for drones as the navy version.
How many agree with me ?

Miriiah
Posted - 2009.10.15 02:07:00 - [835]
 

Originally by: Spc One
hmm..
Perhaps Vindicator deserves 175m3 cargo space for drones as the navy version.
How many agree with me ?



It does, no way to deal with smaller targets and Kronos could use atleast 100m3 bandwitdh aswell imo

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.10.15 03:24:00 - [836]
 

Originally by: Blane Xero
Machariel could do with a touch more cap IMO, maybe 75-100 more base? Also as i've said before - 50% falloff bonus is a nice thought, but ontop of tracking enhancers, computers and rigs, its wasted. (I suggested the following bonuses before - Special bonus - 30% falloff, Minmatar bonus - 7.5% ROF, Gallente bonus 5% damage)

Vindicator...I see no point in a 10km 90% web, Anything that needs slowed down that much within 10-15km you're going to be hard-pressed to hit with Neutrons, Id prefer a 20km 60% web, akin to the Bhaalgorn, personally. Since that would allow you to close in quicker because your opponent is slowed down sooner. Just throwing it out there...


Bhaalgorn - No real complaints. Does what its supposed to do. Enough utilities for some NOS/Neutralisers, enough mids for webs, enough remaining slots to put on enough guns to do damage.

Nightmare - Again, no real complaints. Though i'd be tempted to say drop a low for a 8th mid and give it its missing highslot... That could really be interesting. Though i get the feeling alot of people would highly disagree.



Blane- consider this for a moment-

I end up losing quite a few kills simply because they are able to make it back to the gate even though they're webbed with a 60% web. The Kronos is really good at completing kills as long as it has help with the initial tackle due to it's 90% web. Additionally, the Kronos is able to hold smaller targets still at close ranges so it's guns are more effective.

I really don't see a blaster BS chasing down targets where they have to close 20km+ to get the kill. At least not where a 20km 60% web would make a difference.

fatboy21007
Gallente
Deliberate Means
Posted - 2009.10.15 04:49:00 - [837]
 

i do say the vindicator can use a cap upgrade as well as a tank boost. to seriously make it stand out as of now its awsome for sniping. but wouldnt mind more dmg bonus's or hell add a 5%-10% armor rep bonus to it for the tank part to truly make the vindicator shine as its suppose to

Grarr Bexx
Posted - 2009.10.15 05:07:00 - [838]
 

Originally by: Stealthbug
Originally by: Grarr Bexx
Sansha are a joke now. You boost the Blood Raiders up to a level where they have TWO bonuses on top of those of the Sansha ships, and then you nerf their EHP? What are you smoking?


In all fairness, Sansha still do more damage, and they have better tracking AND fit tachyons, something Blood Raiders will not be using if they want to stay in neut/web range.

But I agree, Sansha does need a cookie if it wants to compete in the PvP realm with Blood Raiders' ability to neut and web. Perhaps give them a 125/125 drone bay/bandwidth? i dunno.


It's not the Nightmare, but the useless Succubus and Phantasm that can in no way compete with any other faction ship as it is now on the test server.

Zheren Huli
Above the Law
ESSE Imperium
Posted - 2009.10.15 06:55:00 - [839]
 

Originally by: fatboy21007
i do say the vindicator can use a cap upgrade as well as a tank boost. to seriously make it stand out as of now its awsome for sniping. but wouldnt mind more dmg bonus's or hell add a 5%-10% armor rep bonus to it for the tank part to truly make the vindicator shine as its suppose to


well the problem with sniping is the targeting range which would require extra sensorbooster so the additional medslot is gone which is kinda sad.

i thought of giving it 2 less guns and more damage so you can use utility slots and its not a total kronos... but than it looks like a tempest with blasters. i wonder how much a falloff bonus would affect blaster through, as partialy minmatar it wouldnt be totaly excludeable.

i would however like to have at least 1 utility slot like the megathron or navy mega just to give it a little variety, may it be remoterep / neut or a probelauncher for pvp corps to hunt in wormholes.


Ulstan
Posted - 2009.10.15 15:27:00 - [840]
 

Edited by: Ulstan on 15/10/2009 15:29:45
Originally by: A Ingus
he is correct about the Gila. It is way over the top. I can fly the thing, just don't think it's right or good for the game, balance wise. Ridiculous passive tanks and bonused larger than BS dronebays on a cruiser at 100mil?


Passive tanks are only an issue in pve. No one gives a toss about passive shield tanked boats in pve.
Why are you complaining that sub BS drone boats have larger drone bays than non BS drone boats? That seems silly. That's the entire point of a drone boat.

Moreover, the gila isn't costing 100m. Last time I checked on TQ, it was going for 300m. That's way more than the Ishtar, which gets a similarly large drone bay. It also gets more bonuses and built in tech II resists. Oh and it's faster and more agile.

Are you angling for the gila to be much worse than the ishtar, while being more expensive? How is that a good plan? If the two are roughly equivalent, but with the faction ship costing way more, that's exactly in line with basically the rest of EVE. Look at tech II guns vs meta 4 guns, and so on.

Originally by: A Ingus
Hell with one of these forget about training BC and BS at all. Drake, Raven, Domi, who need em. Get an alt with Gallente and Caldari cruiser 4, drone, missile, and shield skills and go to the bank on level 4s.


Oh FFS. Stop whining that the new ships may be better at running L4 missions than existing ships. It doesn't mater and no one ****ing cares. People can run L4 missions in whatever they want, it has no effect on game balance, which is how ships stack up in PvP.

I see what is going on here: a couple of ishtar pilots, who have been very happy that their ship has been the absolute best for running complexes solo and such, are irate that another ship may do the job as well. Cry more. This is a complete non issue. You will still be able to run the complexes in your ishtar just as well as before.

Originally by: A Ingus
The Gurista ships are a travesty not only to pve, but to pvp as well. Pretty much no ship in the game can break the tank of them solo before it succumbs to the lesser dps of the Gurista ship (see new Rattlesnake).


How is being good at a solo fight a 'travesty' to PvP. How many cruisers in the game can take on the curse solo? Does that mean the curse is a travesty to PvP? Nope. Solo fights are just about the only place high tank and low dps ships have any kind of role, because tanking ins't a role in PvP.

Quote:
And I haven't even started on my backstory arguments again. Laughing


Good, because your backstory arguments are total crap.


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