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Kittamaru
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.09.11 13:14:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Kittamaru on 11/09/2009 13:17:42
Edit - This is a redesign of my original orca suggestions post - Some numbers have been tweaked and it looks more like the Command Ship it was meant to be :)

ORCA - Industrial Command Ship
Cargo Bay: 5,000m3
Ship Maint Array: 800,000m3 - only able to fit Barges, Exhumers, Frigates, and Cruisers
Ore Bay - 50,000m3
Corp Hanger - 100,000km3
High Slots - 4
Med Slots - 4
Low Slots - 3
Turrets/Launchers - None
Rig Slots - 3
Drone Bay - 100m3
Drone Bandwidth - 50 Mbit/sec

Everything else structure wise is the same

Industrial Command Ship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to effectiveness of Mining Foreman Gang Links per level
5% bonus to agility per level
5% bonus to velocity per level

Role Bonus:
500% bonus to survey scanner range
99% reduction in CPU need for Gang Link module
Able to use 3 Gang Links at one time
Able to Deploy

When Deployed:
Takes 30 seconds to Deploy
Immobile while deployed
Takes 120 seconds to Repack to move.
500% bonus to Ore Hold (showing the effect of deploying)
250% bonus to Tractor Beam range
100% bonus to Tractor Beam velocity
100% bonus to sensor resolution
CANNOT REPACK until Ore Hold is under 50km3

Gameplay reason for the deployment: Diverts power from engines to the sensors, tractor systems, and the anchors to allow the ship to stay in place while pulling in cans around it.


Voila! A ship that provides decent bonuses to mining barges and exhumers, can also protect them from light threats with it's drones, but has to deploy to be fully useful in its role of storing ore until an industrial ship can arrive. This also removes the threat of it being used by suicide pirates.

What will this do?

Creates a ship that can effectively move around a small mining fleet (4x hulks for example)
Creates a ship capable of holding a large amount of ore in storage, allowing time for industrial ships to move it to safe space.
Creates a ship able to effectively "command" mining ops, utilizing good fleet bonuses to increase mining efficiency AND giving the option to spread out a little and collect the ore via a tractor beam.
Presents a risk vs reward situation - the ship is immobile for a minute while it repacks to move. It cannot do this until someone comes to empty it's ore hold, and it can't simply jettison all that ore into space, as one jetcan won't hold it.

I know it's more like a minin rorqual now, but isn't that what it was supposed to be?

Bentakhar
Posted - 2009.09.11 13:25:00 - [2]
 

I dont think the orca was meant as a mini rorqual... its a very flexible ship that can do a little bit of everything relatively well. And its a big help for players doing manufacturing and mining. The new ore bay is great too!

Also having a 500% bonus to deployed ore capacity wouldnt work as when you un-deploy the extra ore would surely be jettisonned. It wouldnt matter for big corp that have haulers taking the ore back to safety but there are non-big corp players (its true ;p )

Personnaly i love that a single hulk+orca can do a reasonnable amount of mining without the need for a hauler. without the need for droping cans and all that can flipper hell.

Altho i wouldnt mind the orca having that extra high slot to fit ALL 3 mining warafare modules+ a tractor beam.
My only real concern about the orca is with its design: its looks totally impossible to fit a hulk in there (and u can actually dock 2 of those) as the ship itself is too small and actually lacks a docking bay.

Appart from that its a well balanced and good looking ship in my opinion.



Kittamaru
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.09.11 13:32:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Kittamaru on 11/09/2009 13:33:34
You simply couldn't repack until the ore bay is under 50km3 :)

This still maintains it's flexibility thanks to the increased corp hanger, allowing you to carry about the same amount of random junk as it can now. However, this would allow it to be more of an "ore storage" device on mining ops which, coupled with it's mining links, make it a real boost to the miners. This would allow you to, literally, strip half a belt or a full belt into the hold, then have one or two people go back for haulers to bring it back to the station/pos. The other cool thing is for deep 0.0 miners:

Small POS + a few guns + a little fuel. Set it up, have the orca Deploy inside. 4x hulks pop out, the industrial ship that carried the pos can haul back to the orca. Fill her up, once the op is done, repark the Hulks and there you go.

Now it's a simple matter of getting the ore from the Orca to your main base :)

This helps reduce POS spamming for the sake of mining, as you don't need a large POS, Corp Hangers x5, Refinery, et al et al. :)

EDIT - as for the small non-big corp miners, I know :) I use the orca with 2-3 hulks and it works a treat. I'd rather have the idea i posted than the current setup because I wouldn't have to move the orca at all once it's deployed, which is a pain given how big and slow it is :)

Bentakhar
Posted - 2009.09.11 13:42:00 - [4]
 

hmm i see what you mean. But its still takes less time for the orca to dock and empty its cargo and come back to the mining site then for an industrial with about 15000m3 of cargo to take ten trips back and forth, which also ossupies a pilot for that time! When i mine using the orca, the time it takes to dock is not lost because the miners can still mine the roids. Now of course this is true for high sec when you're mining in your home system or 1 or 2 jumps away. Not true for 0.0 mining but ... for 0.0 mining there is the rorqual :)


Kittamaru
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.09.11 15:53:00 - [5]
 

That's the beauty of my idea! You can still use it for that! It still has the 50km3 ore bay AND the 100km3 corp hanger, making it a mobile ore hauling machine. However, now, when deployed, you get EXTRA bonuses AND an extra 200km3 to put ore into :)

Neme Nishta
Posted - 2009.09.11 16:20:00 - [6]
 

The Orca is almost perfect as is. The only change really needed is to change the corp hanger into some new type of hanger that is fully accessible to the Orca pilot and configurable to allow gang members access.

Your suggestion does not address that major flaw and you still have to jetcan ore for non-corp haulers to carry away.

I would be in favor of an extra high slot as well, if they ever changed that useless CPU reduction link into something worth using. As it stands though only two links are worthwhile and so a tractor beam fits.

Kittamaru
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.09.11 16:32:00 - [7]
 

I don't think JetCans are a problem with an orca on hand - I maen, with the velocity increase, if someone steals from it, it's your own fault, right?

Kittamaru
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.09.12 17:23:00 - [8]
 

Back to the first page with ya! This needs more discussion :)

Sai'tu
Caldari
Solar Deliberative
Games of Divinity
Posted - 2009.09.12 20:04:00 - [9]
 

Orca isn't just for mining!, most ships on eve are what you make with them.

Some combat teams use it to resupply people with ships, modules, ammo ect
That's the reason I don't like the "only able to fit Barges, Exhumers, Frigates, and Cruisers" bit

Agility bonus would be nice though, while moving take me quite a while to align to a gate or belt.

I like the more drone bay and space, but it seems its getting a little too good for a sub capital ship

I also would like the extra high slot :)

Kittamaru
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.09.12 20:08:00 - [10]
 

Well, to be honest, if you need to use an Orca to resupply ships, Frigates and Crusiers are all you should have to fit in it :) It can still do the modules and everything else (though, can you refit from an orca in space? I dunno if you can actually)

This idea would make it BETTER as a mobile supply depot, thanks to the increased corp hanger :)

Again, this makes it more than adequate for whatever practical role you would assign it, but makes it EXCEL as a mining support vessel, which is it's primary intention :)

Cedims
Posted - 2009.09.13 12:31:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Neme Nishta
The Orca is almost perfect as is. The only change really needed is to change the corp hanger into some new type of hanger that is fully accessible to the Orca pilot and configurable to allow gang members access.

Your suggestion does not address that major flaw and you still have to jetcan ore for non-corp haulers to carry away.

I would be in favor of an extra high slot as well, if they ever changed that useless CPU reduction link into something worth using. As it stands though only two links are worthwhile and so a tractor beam fits.


I created a post suggesting that instead of being a Corp Hangar, it should be a "Fleet Hangar", so when the checkbox for access is checked, anyone in the fleet, gain access to it. :)

Zaknussem
Everybody Loves Donuts
Posted - 2009.09.13 12:58:00 - [12]
 

Your ideas here are thought out and balanced (except for the 4th High slot, unless this ship requires a Siege Module, which you don't mention) and I would support them if it wasn't for one small problem: They're not needed.

The Orca is perfectly fine as it is. It does not need a buff, a nerf or a redesign. You want a ship with these capabilities, get a Rorqual. You want a Rorqual in Hi-Sec - tough, you're not getting one.

The trick with coming up with new ship designs is identifying the gaps in the current ship lineup first, including the ones that are meant to be left empty.

Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2009.09.13 14:44:00 - [13]
 

No ship deploys without some type of siege module.
CCP aint gonna give you anything that further boosts high sec mining.
It's a T1 ship. You aren't gonna get 3 bonuses + role bonuses.

Kittamaru
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.09.14 12:31:00 - [14]
 

Why not? Considering the skill requirements, it's not like this is something every macro miner and his butt buddies can just pop into :)

Kittamaru
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.09.14 16:51:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Kittamaru on 14/09/2009 17:20:04
Another reason to do this - it gives ore thiefs more credibility - anyone NOT using an Orca to mine deserves to have their jetcans stolen :D

BTW - I'm working on a replacement for the deployment... just, not really sure how to do it. Any ideas?

Neme Nishta
Posted - 2009.09.14 17:34:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Kittamaru
I don't think JetCans are a problem with an orca on hand - I maen, with the velocity increase, if someone steals from it, it's your own fault, right?


What velocity increase? I'm not talking about the Orca pulling cans in, which works fine as is. I'm talking about haulers running back and forth from the Orca to station carrying ore. The Orca pilot has to jettison ore for non-corp haulers to pick up since he can't give them access to any of the hangers. You can only jettison things, what, every 5 minutes? So you either have a can sitting in space for multiple haulers to pull from, and vulnerable to can flippers, or you have haulers twiddling their thumbs waiting for the next can. It's a major drawback to solo mining with multiple accounts, non-corp mining with friends, and alliance mining ops.

Additionally, if the Orca pilot does not have access to all the corp hanger divisions, which is probably the majority of cases unless the Orca pilot also happens to be the CEO or a director, he has no access to a portion of his own ship. This means if anyone dumps ore in a non-accessable division (any corp member can put stuff in any division, they just can't see or access it afterwards), someone with access has to take the ore out while the Orca is in space.

Your suggestion does not address this flaw, and instead tries to make the Orca into a high sec Rorqual. I agree with the above poster that your idea is not a necessary or desirable change.

Kittamaru
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.09.14 20:01:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Neme Nishta
Originally by: Kittamaru
I don't think JetCans are a problem with an orca on hand - I maen, with the velocity increase, if someone steals from it, it's your own fault, right?


What velocity increase? I'm not talking about the Orca pulling cans in, which works fine as is. I'm talking about haulers running back and forth from the Orca to station carrying ore. The Orca pilot has to jettison ore for non-corp haulers to pick up since he can't give them access to any of the hangers. You can only jettison things, what, every 5 minutes? So you either have a can sitting in space for multiple haulers to pull from, and vulnerable to can flippers, or you have haulers twiddling their thumbs waiting for the next can. It's a major drawback to solo mining with multiple accounts, non-corp mining with friends, and alliance mining ops.

Additionally, if the Orca pilot does not have access to all the corp hanger divisions, which is probably the majority of cases unless the Orca pilot also happens to be the CEO or a director, he has no access to a portion of his own ship. This means if anyone dumps ore in a non-accessable division (any corp member can put stuff in any division, they just can't see or access it afterwards), someone with access has to take the ore out while the Orca is in space.

Your suggestion does not address this flaw, and instead tries to make the Orca into a high sec Rorqual. I agree with the above poster that your idea is not a necessary or desirable change.



Actually, you can access ANY corp hanger division on a ship you are flying, irregardless as to if you have the roles or not.

And corpies can access the Corp Hanger, as can Fleet Members if you give them permission (right click -> Configure on the hanger tab) - as the corp hanger is still more than your average industrial can hold, this is a non issue in comparison to the size of the unpacked ore bay :)

Neme Nishta
Posted - 2009.09.14 22:17:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Kittamaru

Actually, you can access ANY corp hanger division on a ship you are flying, irregardless as to if you have the roles or not.


I'm not in a player corp right now so can't test this, but there have been numerous requests on this board mentioning this as a problem.

Originally by: Kittamaru

And corpies can access the Corp Hanger, as can Fleet Members if you give them permission (right click -> Configure on the hanger tab) - as the corp hanger is still more than your average industrial can hold, this is a non issue in comparison to the size of the unpacked ore bay :)


This is absolutely not true. You can configure the Ship Maintenance Bay for use by fleet members, but not the Corp Hanger. There is no right click menu for any hanger tab. Fleet members can dump stuff into it but can't see or remove anything. There have been numerous posts on this board about this as well.

Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2009.09.14 22:33:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 14/09/2009 22:39:04
Originally by: Kittamaru
Edited by: Kittamaru on 14/09/2009 17:20:04
Another reason to do this - it gives ore thiefs more credibility - anyone NOT using an Orca to mine deserves to have their jetcans stolen :D

BTW - I'm working on a replacement for the deployment... just, not really sure how to do it. Any ideas?


Should everyone have to have a hauler alt to mine? Most mining is game is already done this way. One or more hulks, with an orca pilot boosting. All run by the same person. Or for lesser sp players a hulk and an industrial alt with maybe a BC standing by as guard and booster. Yeah, that's how they originally envisioned eve I'm sure.

The orca is fine as is. If you want a rorq, buy one and move to low sec.

Jet cans are every 3 minutes btw. Well last time I checked. They ninja nerf things now and then.

Kittamaru
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.09.15 03:06:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Neme Nishta
Originally by: Kittamaru

Actually, you can access ANY corp hanger division on a ship you are flying, irregardless as to if you have the roles or not.


I'm not in a player corp right now so can't test this, but there have been numerous requests on this board mentioning this as a problem.

Originally by: Kittamaru

And corpies can access the Corp Hanger, as can Fleet Members if you give them permission (right click -> Configure on the hanger tab) - as the corp hanger is still more than your average industrial can hold, this is a non issue in comparison to the size of the unpacked ore bay :)


This is absolutely not true. You can configure the Ship Maintenance Bay for use by fleet members, but not the Corp Hanger. There is no right click menu for any hanger tab. Fleet members can dump stuff into it but can't see or remove anything. There have been numerous posts on this board about this as well.


I do appologize - I think you might be right on this one. I know there IS some storage all corpies and fleet members can access, just can't remember which :(

As for needing a hauler - yes, you should need a hauler to mine... if you want to be 100% safe.

OSGOD
Posted - 2009.09.15 03:12:00 - [21]
 

nothing wrong with orca as is ,and if u cant store and hual ore in it why is it called industrial u wanna fark things up more than are go back to WOW

Kittamaru
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.09.15 03:20:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Kittamaru on 15/09/2009 03:22:30
Uh... first off, I don't play wow... wouldn't touch that with a 10 kilometer pole...

second, how does my idea hinder it's ability to haul anything? It simply gives you more options - use it as a hauler and it works great. Use it as a mobile holding station in space to grant bonuses to fleet mates, it ALSO works great. I don't see anything that reduces it's ability to effectively haul ore around, it GAINS ship maint AND corp hanger space at the cost of Cargo Bay space. Whoop de doo. Only difference then is that when you decide to stay in one spot, you can hold a cubic crapload of ore instead of having to haul back and forth (which costs your mates their bonuses)

third - keep the ad hominem attacks for the schoolyard k?

fourth -
Originally by: OSGOD
whe is CCP going to get their **** to gether and start working on stability instead of adding pretty collourd that result in instability after every patch ,EG: last minnie patch to fix certain server stability issues made thinfgs worse even my m8`s in london are getting dropped,and what happened to dc`s being in the past and 1000 ship battles with no lag PFFT start walking the walk instead walking on ur hands,sick and tired of u blaming my gear and my isp i have done evrything my end to try to fix this 4800 dollar PC 20 mg adsl connection best modem on the market replace cables evry 6 months reboot modem every 6 days still eve srops me at 29k population get office in Australia so we can sort this out in court BLAME U MUTHA ****ERS


That's your latest post... wow... yes, you are CERTAINLY one who should be put in a position of making decisions... I wouldn't trust you to tell me what colour the sky is!

Kittamaru
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.09.17 13:55:00 - [23]
 

Getting my bump on!

Irongut
Sex Money Guns
Posted - 2009.09.17 14:24:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Neme Nishta
Originally by: Kittamaru

Actually, you can access ANY corp hanger division on a ship you are flying, irregardless as to if you have the roles or not.


I'm not in a player corp right now so can't test this, but there have been numerous requests on this board mentioning this as a problem.



Lots of people being stupid doesn't make them any less stupid. Orca, Carrier, Mom, Rorqual, etc pilots can access every corp hanger division in their ship regardless of roles. This has been the case for quite some time now.

Originally by: Kittamaru

This is absolutely not true. You can configure the Ship Maintenance Bay for use by fleet members, but not the Corp Hanger. There is no right click menu for any hanger tab. Fleet members can dump stuff into it but can't see or remove anything. There have been numerous posts on this board about this as well.


Numerous posts from people who fail to think of a solution doesn't make them any less fail. Jet a can of ore and include something else like a bookmark that the haulers don't take. Then the jet can lasts over an hour and you don't have to worry about only being able to jet one can every 3 minutes (or whatever the timer is).

Jarna
Amarr
Air EVE
Posted - 2009.09.17 15:10:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Neme Nishta
The Orca is almost perfect as is. The only change really needed is to change the corp hanger into some new type of hanger that is fully accessible to the Orca pilot and configurable to allow gang members access.

Your suggestion does not address that major flaw and you still have to jetcan ore for non-corp haulers to carry away.

I would be in favor of an extra high slot as well, if they ever changed that useless CPU reduction link into something worth using. As it stands though only two links are worthwhile and so a tractor beam fits.


Yeah, I never liked the idea of incorporation the Corporation Hangar structure. It should have a customizable setup that is separate. What if I want my own personal Orca and don't necessarily use it on Corp outings? I don't want corp hangars being reflected.

Kittamaru
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.09.17 15:23:00 - [26]
 

If you want your own personal orca, get one - as said, you can access all the hangers as though they were your own cargo bay. No problem there (unless I'm missing something?)


Jarna
Amarr
Air EVE
Posted - 2009.09.17 15:32:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Kittamaru
If you want your own personal orca, get one - as said, you can access all the hangers as though they were your own cargo bay. No problem there (unless I'm missing something?)




But aren't they stuck with the names of the Corporate hangars? Why would I want my own personal Orca having tabs named something that doesn't reflect what I want/do?

Kittamaru
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.09.18 02:54:00 - [28]
 

Does it really matter what it's named? I mean, I'm pretty sure you can remember what tab it's in :P

Kittamaru
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.09.20 04:50:00 - [29]
 

bump

Cedims
Posted - 2009.09.22 00:59:00 - [30]
 

To ME, the biggest thing is about the "Corp Hangar" on the Orca. The fact that only CORP members can access it, according to corp settings. IMO, it ought to be a "Fleet Hangar" instead, so that all FLEET members can access it, if shared. (The tabs don't matter so much, but a shared area is important.)

I know it's supposed to be corp oriented, but I often team up with other players, because my corp (which I do not wish to leave) is mainly British, but I am in North America.

SO... actually, maybe the new Ore Hold could be shared if another checkbox was checked under configure? So that all FLEET members can read/write to it. That would resolve MY needs, and the corp hangar could stay as is!!! :)


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