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Arcane Azmadi
Caldari
First Flying Wing Inc
Primary.
Posted - 2009.09.08 03:51:00 - [1]
 

This may seem like a strange complaint, but so far WAY too many matches have been complete one-sided curbstomps where the victors don't even come close to losing a single ship. In AT6 these occurences were rare and exciting because when it happened it meant you were looking at a really powerful team- in almost all matches each team would lose at lease SOME ships. This time it's just happening way too often and it's like watching a kid pull the wings off a fly. It's boring. There's no tension because when it becomes obvious that one team can't damage the other the only thing they're killing is the time until they get wiped out.

I place the blame for this on the reintroduction of Logistics cruisers. Although they're apparently working as intended (see the number of matches where they're destroyed and their team rapidly follows) it seems that almost all the "total helldeath" matches are ones where the Logistics cruiser is NOT destroyed and their team doesn't even come close to losing a single ship. Now they're not rendering matches completely tedious and drawn out stalemates (as I imagine they were in AT5 and earlier) so they're not broken, but I don't really see the need for them. AT6 was fantastic without them, so why was it seen necessary to reintroduce them here? I just feel they're making things, if not "boring" as such, then at least less exciting than they could be.

Does anyone else agree with this?

DHB WildCat
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.09.08 04:23:00 - [2]
 

No I do not agree, in our match the logistic ship was a non factor and not even bothered with until the end. The rules this year are the closest to allowing the best fights possible!

WildCat

Christina Bamar
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2009.09.08 04:34:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Arcane Azmadi

Does anyone else agree with this?


No. If it happens later in the tourney then possibly, but quite honestly 64 alliances is a lot, and some of them are quite simply not going to be competent. Either they're not that good at pvp, they don't put much time into preparing, or whatever. If you get a good, well-prepared team going up against one that just isn't ready then obviously you're going to see blow-outs. Once you get down to the final 16, or final 8 you'll start seeing much better matches.

Melakith Entar
Minmatar
FinFleet
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.08 06:22:00 - [4]
 

Did you even watch our match?

sp3cial forc3s
Sileo In Pacis
Posted - 2009.09.08 07:00:00 - [5]
 

I disagree, if an alliance team cannot overcome one logistics ship then they deserve to be owned. As the rubbish are despatched i think you'll find the matches in the later rounds to be alot more entertaining.


eliminator2
Gallente
Vindicated Blast.
Posted - 2009.09.08 07:05:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: eliminator2 on 08/09/2009 07:07:08
AT5 was the last of the epic battles in all seriousness

it had honour tanks close calls sitting on edge of seat fights

AT6 had a few like that but not alot or the last ones left couldnt deal the dps out to destroy each other

AT7 just pretty much boring now no real skill involved you can watch a fight till half way through and say there gunna win and your right because the fight never changes direction in who is gunna win

there is only one team that had apoc navy abaddon apocx2 and some others that got me interested because the apoc was so close to dieing and same was the other teams nightwak was epic fight rest are just meh

EDIT: must admit there a few fights that get you interested but then i just loose interest because of well i dunno what it is theres just something there that doesnt kick it out

DJ Gangrel
Amarr
New Eden Radio
New Eden Radio Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.08 07:25:00 - [7]
 

I would put it down to luck of the draw with who was facing who and not necessarily the reintroduction of Logistics that has been responsible for more of the curbstomps than anything else.

I still think though that it will get closer as we go further into the tournament.


Czech Lion
Posted - 2009.09.08 09:06:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: eliminator2

there is only one team that had apoc navy abaddon apocx2 and some others that got me interested because the apoc was so close to dieing and same was the other teams nightwak was epic fight rest are just meh



The apoc pilot...Sir.Fett...became our hero and got a personalized bombay tv ad as a giftWink

Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2009.09.08 09:46:00 - [9]
 

Rules are great, matches aren't all great but you can't honestly expect everyone in the preliminary rounds to be pro. Get over it.

Christina Bamar
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2009.09.08 10:05:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: eliminator2
Edited by: eliminator2 on 08/09/2009 07:07:08
AT7 just pretty much boring now no real skill involved...


Perhaps you should participate in the tourney before you lecture us all about how much skill is required after watching the very first round of matches.

Guru Saurfang
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.09.08 10:38:00 - [11]
 

This time it seems that CCP Claw & Co. got it almost right. Always room for improvement but really opens the way to intelligent and divers set-ups.

Betty Goddard
Posted - 2009.09.08 11:53:00 - [12]
 

I don't really agree but I can see your point because that's exactly what decided our match really. the 2 rooks and the guardian in our setup ****ed the other team, without the guardian the 1st rook prolly would have died and that would have opened up the fight alot more.

But, look above my post and you'll see others bringing their own fights into it saying the exact opposite so it's really circumstantial.

Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2009.09.08 12:45:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Veldya on 08/09/2009 12:46:11
I think EW plays a bigger role, it seems that it is logistics but in reality it is the side that loses the EW battle that doesn't have enough dps on the table to match it with the opposition and when it is about 7k dps vs 2k dps it turns into a very one sided fight.

Logists play a role late in combats when dps is lower, then they have a chance to delay death or prevent death if the logistic ship has survived.

Not a lot of fights get to that point, only when the EW on both sides is taken out simultaneously.

I think what is causing the anomoly is often the presence of T3 ships, it is not easy to tell if they are packing EW or RR or just blazing dps.

In more than one match the logistic ship was a decoy with as big a tank as possible in it and the T3 was the ship with the RRs.

Some good mind games, it will be interesting to see how teams respond.

Lili Lu
Posted - 2009.09.08 17:09:00 - [14]
 

It's not the one logistics ship, it's the damn dual or more ecm. If one side jams the other -

"it's game over man, game over"

The big question is will this finally convince ccp that ecm mechanics need to be re-thought, again. The last nerf was not well thought out and was not harsh enough anyway (nerfed range but boosted strngth bonus from 20 to 30%Laughing. Interestingly, they nerfed damps into oblivion from tournament results similar to these.

Instead what ccp should do is roll back the ecm strength buff, give ecm somewhat the former range it had, and buff all the other ew (damps, td, painters) so that it would have the same range 150-200km ability as the former ecm on a combat recon ship. Then all the combat recons could be fleet ew ships and break up the numbers wins situation we have now in fleet warfarwe. Curse, Lachesis and Huginn should all be involved in the ranged ew game.

The force recons should not get the range bonus and would all be essentially solo/small-gang roaming ships.

CCP Claw

Posted - 2009.09.08 21:07:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Arcane Azmadi
AT6 was fantastic without them, so why was it seen necessary to reintroduce them here? I just feel they're making things, if not "boring" as such, then at least less exciting than they could be.

Does anyone else agree with this?


Logistics is undoubtedly the single most swing factor in deciding the tempo of a tournament. Dual logistics made for slowness, no logistics made for some great games. But don't forget that with no logistics came other ways to field extremely hard to kill teams; MWDing Nighthawks, spider-cap Rokhs, and so on.

Single logistics does make teams with defense more common, but it does not necessarily make for boring games; it makes for slow games when teams bring so little DPS that they cannot crack a single logistics ship, but that's the fault of the team's design, not of the logistics ship.

Personally I think single logistics and limits on remote reps is the closest we've come to a 'perfect' tournament in terms of skill and setup design, although it clearly isn't as explosive as AT6. I've said it once and I'll say it again though - the rules will continue to change for as long as we have tournaments, to try and always keep them different. Maybe next time we'll remove cap transfer and cap boosters and allow any number of logistics, who knows. Logistics will always be an area that receives special attention, but rules will always change and people will always adapt.

Deja Thoris
Invicta.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2009.09.09 00:34:00 - [16]
 

I think the rules are excellent as they stand. All teams have a lot of variety in them which makes it tactically very interesting. I personally did not like AT6 just for the fact that teams brought 9 fleet issue stabbers or whatever the FOTM was at that time.

Although there are a few "totalhelldeath" matches at the moment I think theres a couple of reasons for this.
1) There are a few genuinely mismatched teams out there, its the early rounds still and that it to be expected.
2) A match swings very quickly once a tipping point is reached. Something can be a real nailbiter but generally if a logistics fails or the EW dies a match swiftly moves towards a conclusion. I don't think this is a bad thing.

My personal opinion is that EW is as big if not a bigger factor than logistics. An EW ship can easily take anything between 2 and 5 ships out of contention for long enough to swing a match. Not necessarily a bad thing since it can be countered and it's also pretty expensive to do point wise. As always its a fine balance. Bring 2 rooks a couple of keres and blackbirds and you can probably jam the other team off the field. Then you lack dps, and so it goes on until madness sets in!

QwaarJet
Gallente
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.09.09 01:16:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Arcane Azmadi
This may seem like a strange complaint, but so far WAY too many matches have been complete one-sided curbstomps where the victors don't even come close to losing a single ship. In AT6 these occurences were rare and exciting because when it happened it meant you were looking at a really powerful team- in almost all matches each team would lose at lease SOME ships. This time it's just happening way too often and it's like watching a kid pull the wings off a fly. It's boring. There's no tension because when it becomes obvious that one team can't damage the other the only thing they're killing is the time until they get wiped out.

I place the blame for this on the reintroduction of Logistics cruisers. Although they're apparently working as intended (see the number of matches where they're destroyed and their team rapidly follows) it seems that almost all the "total helldeath" matches are ones where the Logistics cruiser is NOT destroyed and their team doesn't even come close to losing a single ship. Now they're not rendering matches completely tedious and drawn out stalemates (as I imagine they were in AT5 and earlier) so they're not broken, but I don't really see the need for them. AT6 was fantastic without them, so why was it seen necessary to reintroduce them here? I just feel they're making things, if not "boring" as such, then at least less exciting than they could be.

Does anyone else agree with this?


This tournament was originally created for the participants. Viewers of the tourney seem to think the rules are only there to make for explosions and fun. It's about us, the participants too and so-called "boring" fights usually end up being the most skillful. Logistics are not easy to put into a setup and correctly use. They take a great deal of skill, but can reap rewards. The rules for this tourney strike a good balance. I would still like to see remote reps allowed on every ship, but that's for another tourney.

Issler Dainze
Minmatar
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
Posted - 2009.09.09 03:10:00 - [18]
 

For us,which I had not thought about until it was too late, having the match over Labor Day weekend was a HORRIBLE idea. Most of the US members of BEEP had holiday plans, for me for example I had to forgo seeing CCP at the Penny Arcade event in Seattle as our match day was the only day I could have gone, a lot of our members were camping or traveling for other holiday events.

To make the point more specific, all our ECM pilots were gone for the weekend, I didn't think we had such silo-ed specializations until we were trying to find folks to fly this last weekend. Non-US folks should realize for most US folks this is the "end of summer" and a time where we have our last shot at out door activities. (I know, my RL character is taking too much of my time from Eve!)

Please CCP, no more major events on long weekend US holidays!!

Issler

Morvyn
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.09.09 03:49:00 - [19]
 

OP, have you actually watched any of the tournament matches? Tons of them were really close up until the end; my team's included.

DJ Gangrel
Amarr
New Eden Radio
New Eden Radio Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.09 04:57:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Issler Dainze


Please CCP, no more major events on long weekend US holidays!!

Issler


WHy dont CCP then try to avoid *any* major holidays of European nations where players might be unable to show up.

Actually, if it was held a week earlier I am sure some players from the UK would have complained seeing as it was August Bank Holiday Weekend (ie a 3 day weekend where people go and take a long break, have a few drinks, go to the beach... end of summer thing).

Have to admit it was a bit strange of them timing with PAX weekend though... more than likely a *pure* oversight on CCP's part

Arcane Azmadi
Caldari
First Flying Wing Inc
Primary.
Posted - 2009.09.09 06:15:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: QwaarJet
This tournament was originally created for the participants. Viewers of the tourney seem to think the rules are only there to make for explosions and fun. It's about us, the participants too and so-called "boring" fights usually end up being the most skillful. Logistics are not easy to put into a setup and correctly use. They take a great deal of skill, but can reap rewards.


Well if you put it that way, I guess you're right. I was complaining on the grounds that all the total helldeath made for boring viewing, you have a totally different approach. Of course, which of us is right depends on whether the tournament is still being run for the participants or the viewers.

Originally by: Morvyn
OP, have you actually watched any of the tournament matches? Tons of them were really close up until the end; my team's included.


Respondant, did you actually READ my OP? The close matches aren't the ones I'm complaining about!

Cheekything
Gallente
Black Lance
Posted - 2009.09.09 15:48:00 - [22]
 

Personally I believe that adding a point penalty to any ship filling the logistical role would be far more effective than the sip themselves and might make for more interesting setups as people would then be able to choose between the role and the ship.

Morvyn
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.09.09 16:40:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Morvyn
OP, have you actually watched any of the tournament matches? Tons of them were really close up until the end; my team's included.


Respondant, did you actually READ my OP? The close matches aren't the ones I'm complaining about!


I guess I need to explain what my post was implying: Complaining about matches that aren't close at all when the MAJORITY of them WERE really close is pointless and makes no sense.


 

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