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Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2009.09.07 08:33:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Ishquar Teh''Sainte on 07/09/2009 08:33:33
ohwow ugh

1. just because randomplayer XY can't dock at the station, it doesn't mean no one can. only in few cases only one aliance can dock at a certain station. this means - the pool of pilots that can fulfil this contract might be limited but not 0 (or limited to one corp/alliance) ... just because YOU can't dock there, doesn't mean nobody can.

2. do your research before accepting a contract. it's not like you don't know where to pick up an item/drop it off. if you see that it's a station claimed by an player alliance not blue to you, forget about this contract. it's not like this information is hard to come by, a simple "show info" on the pick up/drop off station should be enough.

Michwich
Posted - 2009.09.07 08:34:00 - [32]
 

So whats the point of courier missions then if theyre not what they say? Dont you get it? This ruins the whole point of a courier mission, this devalues any sort of agreement between players, its worthless if you allow this. So whats the point of it? Ahh I know , greif... get a life.

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2009.09.07 08:35:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Edited by: Ishquar Teh''Sainte on 07/09/2009 08:33:33
ohwow ugh

do your research before accepting a contract. it's not like you don't know where to pick up an item/drop it off. if you see that it's a station claimed by an player alliance not blue to you, forget about this contract. it's not like this information is hard to come by, a simple "show info" on the pick up/drop off station should be enough.


But... setting up conditions that require another pilot to think or plan ahead is an exploit!

Luba Love
Posted - 2009.09.07 08:54:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
...think or plan ahead...


In all honesty I agree to that. However, there should be some consitency in how a game is designed.

As an example I can mention how the mission system was designed way back.

When taking a mission, you never were prompted if your mission destination was low sec or high sec. Today, your mission description tells you loud and clear, even in red letters.Laughing

Thats a design decision CCP made because too many players just flew mindlessly into low sec and got blown up, WITHOUT checking their mission destination before flying there.

See what I m getting at? Smile

Yes, Courier Contracts ought to state loud and clear if the delivery destination is accessible and that is to be in line with my previous example.

Or:

Remove all warnings in the game and let people crank those brains up for real.Shocked

\o/Laughing

Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2009.09.07 09:11:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Luba Love


Remove all warnings in the game and let people crank those brains up for real.Shocked




YARRRR!!Twisted Evil

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.09.07 09:12:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Michwich
So whats the point of courier missions then if theyre not what they say? Dont you get it? This ruins the whole point of a courier mission, this devalues any sort of agreement between players, its worthless if you allow this. So whats the point of it? Ahh I know , greif... get a life.
It's not a courier mission, though, now is it?

It's a courier contract — a service you're meant to render to another player. Sometimes, the service rendered isn't exactly what it says in the text (the service is actually "give them your money, then give them a killmail and some loot", rather than "move stuff A to place B"), but that's why you should review the contract before signing it. Don't want to hand over your money and/or get blown up? Then don't sign it. Either way, it completely fulfills its purpose: to advertise for services wanted.

It doesn't devalue the agreements between players any more than the myriad other scams legally available in the game (some of which are much harder to detect than this one).

Marko Riva
Posted - 2009.09.07 09:14:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
It's pretty easy to check the station in question - if it's an NPC station you can dock. If it's an alliance run station you probably can't (unless it's Providence).

Valid scam because it's easy to avoid.


Was about to reply the same, then saw this so I'll just QFT.

Atticus Fynch
Posted - 2009.09.07 09:39:00 - [38]
 

I think the problem is use of the word "contract."

A contract is a legal agreement. If either party fails in the agreement, then it is a breech of contract.

In the real world, I would be able to sue the person for not allowing me to deliver on the contract, and get my collateral.

In EVE you cant do that.

But as I said. 0.0 courier contracts are worthless to the general public. So that's my last word on the matter.

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.09.07 10:02:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Zartanic on 07/09/2009 10:02:45
The same happens in the real world. Being screwed by a contract that was impossible to fulfil kicks in penalty clauses. Happens all the time. As with EVE its tough luck, the person who failed should have taken more precautions or not tried to be greedy.

gfldex
Posted - 2009.09.07 10:07:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Nekmet Awai
it is a exploit.


I'm terribly sorry, but CCP is the party that defines what is an exploit and what not. You might have an opinion about that matter, but so does anybody.

Thornat
Posted - 2009.09.07 10:39:00 - [41]
 

An exploit is taking a valid mechanic and using it in a way for which it is not intended. In this case the mechanic works exactly as it is intended. A person created a contract to have some goods sent to a station, if you can't legaly dock at that station its not the contractors problem, its yours (as already mentioned its quite easy to determine whether or not you can legaly dock at a station).

While this 'might' be a scam, it may as well be a legitimate contract for his own alliance or corp mates to take. I do it for my alliance all the time and while sometimes I get the 'WTF did you take that contract for A hole, its my scam', I generaly don't care because if your a dumb as scammer, whether your in my corp or not I'll take your money!

Glengrant
Beyond Limited
Posted - 2009.09.07 10:44:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Atticus Fynch

I'm a courier jockey, so I couldn't resist this one contract offering 30 million in reward for just 10 million in collateral.



Offer too good to be true? It usually is - time to verify.

Originally by: Atticus Fynch
I finally reached my destination only to find I couldn't dock...JUST AS I THOUGHT.

I backed tracked to hi-sec safely...and wiser.

I'm glad I did this before accepting the contract. So my question to CCP is this...


Grats - good you did some checking.

Originally by: Atticus Fynch
I consider courier contracts the same as buying material on the market. If I buy a ship, I get a ship...not a piece of ore.


Actually - if you do a trade and don't check you might get a frigate where you expected a BC.

Originally by: Atticus Fynch
So why are courier contracts such a risk for those in the transport business? Yes, I know about the risk elements in EVE...and I took my risk by flying through 0.0 space. But this is a fraudulent business practice and it really doesn't stink of risk, but rather an exploit.


This game is a sandbox. The whole point is to provide a lot of freedom. That means scams are possible - and not considered exploits.

You can prevent them by keeping your eyes open - and you actually did. Good for you.

Originally by: Atticus Fynch
So my bottom line now...I will NEVER pick up or deliver to 0.0. The trip is hazardous enough...and it may be a waste of time afterall.


What I don't quite get is - CCP already provided you with a scam protection tool here - it's called the map and it can show you the stations there.
And if it's an alliance station it's safe to assume you can't dock unless you're a member or best friend of that alliance.

What exactly is the problem you're complaining about?

This problem has been pre-fixed. Anybody with a second to spare to think about it can check and prevent this. Anybody who falls for this got a valuable learning experience for a tutorial fee of just 10m.

Luba Love
Posted - 2009.09.07 10:44:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: gfldex
...CCP is the party that defines what is an exploit and what not.



See, just bcus something 'IS' in the game, it doesnt automatically mean someone has 'defined' it or 'thought about it'.

Oversights happen all the time, and I would call this a game design flaw due to the issue not being immediately obvious to a programmer/designer.

As I said above, either be consequent with implementing warnings to players or have no warnings at all!

Babel
Utopian Research I.E.L.
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2009.09.07 10:57:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Sader Rykane
A player knowingly removing Point B to make a contract impossible to complete is an exploit


Not impossible, just a timesink.

There's nothing to stop you getting some friends together and conquering the station/sov within the timeframe of the contract and so be able to complete the contract.
Probably not the most efficient way of completing the contract, but certainly possible, not impossible :)

Snasty
Caldari
The Hippies
The Bohemians
Posted - 2009.09.07 12:52:00 - [45]
 

Perhaps a change to the mechanics is required. Accepting a contract gives docking rights perhaps, with restrictions on who could create such contracts naturally.

Op is correct in that once new players discover this issue, some the hard way, thats the end of 0.0 delivery contracts for them, which is a loss for those of us that want stuff moved.

It is far from ideal as is...

Thornat
Posted - 2009.09.07 13:01:00 - [46]
 

A simpler solution is to simply make contracts you can't fufill not available to you, or flagged as (you can't complete this contract). Or perhaps simply make it not possible to create contracts to alliance stations to the public, aka making them available only to members of the alliance, or those that do have access.

I agree its not an ideal system as it is, but in the same token its not an exploit, its simply a mechanic without validation (meaning it does not validate the fact that a person that takes the contract may not be able to fufill it)

Melor Rend
Posted - 2009.09.07 13:03:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Atticus Fynch
I consider courier contracts the same as buying material on the market. If I buy a ship, I get a ship...not a piece of ore.


In 0.0 you can open the market, see a ship on the regional market, buy it for 150mil ISK and then notice that you bought it on an outpost that you don't have any docking rights for... You always have to keep your eyes open and not just click "accept" (which is exactly what you did - you first flew out 10 jumps to prevent being ripped off).

Vanzatoarea
Posted - 2009.09.07 13:42:00 - [48]
 

so HOW would you fix it ?


say i have a npc corp alt , i haul something to a station then realize i cant dock , and i find someone in charge to gimme dockin rights someway

there is no posible game mechanic to verify if you can or not complete a courier contract . There are way to many variables . Say your corp is neutral but will get blue in a few days due to circumstances , say you flip corps sometime between accepting and completing the contract


all you`re saying is "sandbox" is bad , you dont want to think , you just want to dumb down a "market" mechanic to the level of no-brain PvE missions

and to the useless i d i o t with the RL comparison : go become a freelance trucker and accept a piza dellivery to bin laden`s cave.....

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.07 13:50:00 - [49]
 

all of 0.0 haul contracts are scam. people in 0.0 alliances have ways to move their stuff on their own.

Khemul Zula
Amarr
Keisen Trade League
Posted - 2009.09.07 14:14:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Atticus Fynch
I think the problem is use of the word "contract."

A contract is a legal agreement. If either party fails in the agreement, then it is a breech of contract.

In the real world, I would be able to sue the person for not allowing me to deliver on the contract, and get my collateral.

In EVE you cant do that.

But as I said. 0.0 courier contracts are worthless to the general public. So that's my last word on the matter.
If this situation could arise in the real world, I'm not entirely sure you are correct here. When you sign the contract you are claiming you are able to deliver the contracted item(s). When the other person signs the contract they are assuming (atleast they will claim this in court) that you can deliver it. Failure to deliver will still be failure to deliver and leave you liable to any penalties outlined in the contract. The main difference in a real world contract is you probably wouldn't be allowed to keep the contracted item(s) and you have to pay the penalty for failing/breaching the contract.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.09.07 14:26:00 - [51]
 

…also, in the real world, both the owner and the courier would have the package insured, so getting it stolen and/or blown up in the middle of the transport would mean neither party came out (much) in the red. Everybody wins! Razz

(Also, the entire plot for Heat).

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2009.09.07 15:20:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Michwich
So whats the point of courier missions then if theyre not what they say?


There is no point, the system is flawed. CCP could have created an entire industry/profession, could have mitigated hub over crowding, could have gotten more people into low sec and no sec.

But didn't.

Khemul Zula
Amarr
Keisen Trade League
Posted - 2009.09.07 15:25:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Khemul Zula on 07/09/2009 15:25:08
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Michwich
So whats the point of courier missions then if theyre not what they say?


There is no point, the system is flawed. CCP could have created an entire industry/profession, could have mitigated hub over crowding, could have gotten more people into low sec and no sec.

But didn't.
They could have also solved world hunger, ended all war, and brought everyone out of poverty. Oh the potential of courier contracts.

Ryhss
Caldari
The Excecutorans
Posted - 2009.09.07 15:25:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Zartanic
The easy way to check for a scam.... If the offer looks too good to be true then its not true.
This, for sure. I quit the courier business because of these legal scams. Only way to avoid being scammed like this, is to not do coriers!:)

Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2009.09.07 15:49:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Lubomir Penev on 07/09/2009 15:54:18
Originally by: Atticus Fynch
Given that this contract was not made out to a particular corporation (with docking rights)but rather to the public does make it a scam (and a good one I'll admit).


You understand that in any outpost hundreds of different corporations in a myriad of alliance may have docking rights?

The only way to reach them all is by a public contract. That you were too dumb to check docking rights before accepting it doesn't make it a scam.

I bought stuff in outposts I didn't have access too, and got them safely in empire via courier contract. It was just handled by someone smarter than you.

Originally by: Atticus Fynch

In the real world, I would be able to sue the person for not allowing me to deliver on the contract, and get my collateral.



Btw you could perfectly well complete that contract, by subcontracting the package to someone with docking rights...

Enkidu Uruksen
Wakizashi Renaissance
Posted - 2009.09.07 16:42:00 - [56]
 

I think there should be a way to find out whether you have docking rights at an outpost without going there. Somebody said "You don't, unless it's in Providence." The last time I was at the EC-P8R outpost (Pure Blind) it was also open to anybody docking. Is it now? I don't know. I don't know how to find out without going there, either.

Do you?

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2009.09.07 16:46:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Enkidu Uruksen
I think there should be a way to find out whether you have docking rights at an outpost without going there. Somebody said "You don't, unless it's in Providence." The last time I was at the EC-P8R outpost (Pure Blind) it was also open to anybody docking. Is it now? I don't know. I don't know how to find out without going there, either.

Do you?



It's run by Mostly Harmless, so I'd guess no. Mostly Harmless doesn't have a track record of hospitality and good will toward "neutrals".

Like any alliance, they have diplomats and they can be contacted.

Korizan
Hysterically Unforgiving
Posted - 2009.09.07 17:20:00 - [58]
 

Exploit no.
This is more akin to a missing game mechanic.

ie. - you except a contract to deliver from Point A to Point B.
As long as you are carrying the contracted item you should be able to dock @ both locations regardless of station settings.

Sadly it will never happen.




Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.09.07 17:57:00 - [59]
 

JUST CHECK if you have docking rights.
It is your responsability to check that before you take the contract.
Easy rule of thumb : if it's a NPC-sov 0.0 station, you can dock ; if it's a player-sov 0.0 station, YOU MOST LIKELY WON'T BE ABLE TO DOCK UNLESS YOU ARE IN THE SAME ALLIANCE, AND EVEN THEN IT'S NOT 100% GUARANTEED YOU CAN DOCK.

Is this being used as a scam too ? Probably. Actually, very likely.
Is this also being used completely honestly ? YES, YES IT IS.
Just because YOU failed to check that you belong to the group of people with docking rights (and because there is no "alliance-only" contracting method) doesn't mean it's a scam.

Oh, and even if it's a scam, IT'S NOT AN EXPLOIT.


Sure, it would be nicer if the contract would feed you a big "WARNING : you do NOT have docking rights there, I just checked and you don't, don't get this contract you idiot", but then again EVE/CCP aren't well-known for hand-holding.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.09.07 18:11:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Sure, it would be nicer if the contract would feed you a big "WARNING : you do NOT have docking rights there, I just checked and you don't, don't get this contract you idiot", but then again EVE/CCP aren't well-known for hand-holding.
…and even if they did, the morons who fell for the .99-scams will fail to read it and come here and complain anyway.


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