open All Channels
seplocked Ships and Modules
blankseplocked Typhoon Needs Changing
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6

Author Topic

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.09.05 01:55:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Xoth Freefall
Do you have any ideas for making it less sp intensive or making it more "worth it" for the training time?


Best I've got is a 5/5 slot layout to ease the pain. I'm really unwilling to consider anything that radically changes the makeup of the ship.

-Liang

Slash Harnet
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.09.05 03:33:00 - [92]
 

Buff seems unlikely (except maybe hp switch) with the fleet Typhoon right around the corner. Especially since it uses most of the reasonable ideas from this thread.

fuxinos
Caldari
Guys 0f Sarcasm
Posted - 2009.09.05 11:14:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: fuxinos on 05/09/2009 11:17:46
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Xoth Freefall
Do you have any ideas for making it less sp intensive or making it more "worth it" for the training time?


Best I've got is a 5/5 slot layout to ease the pain. I'm really unwilling to consider anything that radically changes the makeup of the ship.

-Liang


Thats just how Minmatar is, yes, they are SP intensive, but thats the drawback of versatility.

Just because it takes some more time to train for it doesnt justify making it stronger then others.

If you make balance by amount of SP you need you can also say, I have 40mil SP and I need to win against anyone below.

Thats not how it works.

Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
Posted - 2009.09.05 13:54:00 - [94]
 

The phoons not actually THAT sp intensive, it just uses off race weapons. You pretty much NEED siege II, so thats an investment, but if you're serious about flying battleships you should have solid drone, neut, armor tank and remote rep skills.

It's no more skill intensive than for example getting the most out of any other battleship. It just needs an off-race weapon, but then plenty of people have cross trained for stealth bombers or mission-ravens.

I continue to think that fitting ACs on a phoon is a waste of time and its versatility.... so y'know...

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.09.05 15:14:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: fuxinos
Thats just how Minmatar is, yes, they are SP intensive, but thats the drawback of versatility.


The phoon really isn't all that versatile. I realize that you can say "but you don't have to fit ACs" or some nonsense, but nobody has to fit all their high slots with weapons.

Quote:
Just because it takes some more time to train for it doesnt justify making it stronger then others.

If you make balance by amount of SP you need you can also say, I have 40mil SP and I need to win against anyone below.

Thats not how it works.


First of all, a 5/5 layout wouldn't make the Phoon any stronger than it is now. It would simply make it less frustrating to newer players. Second of all, I agree that the Phoon is a good battleship.... once you have the skillpoints to run it. And it's just about equal to the other good battleships.

But the flip side to what you're saying is that the Phoon is still "imbalanced" by skillpoints - just in the opposite direction. Effectively, "I don't have 40mil SP and I need to often lose against many below." As you say, that's now how it (should) work. But it does.

Again, I don't want the ship radically changed, and I'm not asking for it to be overpowered. I'd just like it to be a bit less frustrating to use.

-Liang

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.05 15:29:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: fuxinos
Sure it runs out on CPU if you fail fit it with your setup.


Quote:
100MN Digital Booster Rockets


I lol'd

Quote:
A Phoon lives from its versatility, not its dps and it has more then enough dps for how versatile it is.


Do you even realize what you just said? You know that any ship can simply drop highslots for neuts and RRs, right? They just choose not to?

Anyway fitting the ANP means sacrificing EHP, you know the 36 of it that comes from an EANM. Do you think being able to switch the ANP to an EANM is ridiculous? Your setup has 1 damage mod, but an... 8 slot buffer, and still only 105k EHP.

fuxinos
Caldari
Guys 0f Sarcasm
Posted - 2009.09.05 16:36:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: fuxinos on 05/09/2009 16:41:31
Edited by: fuxinos on 05/09/2009 16:37:24
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: fuxinos
Sure it runs out on CPU if you fail fit it with your setup.


Quote:
100MN Digital Booster Rockets


I lol'd

Quote:
A Phoon lives from its versatility, not its dps and it has more then enough dps for how versatile it is.


Do you even realize what you just said? You know that any ship can simply drop highslots for neuts and RRs, right? They just choose not to?

Anyway fitting the ANP means sacrificing EHP, you know the 36 of it that comes from an EANM. Do you think being able to switch the ANP to an EANM is ridiculous? Your setup has 1 damage mod, but an... 8 slot buffer, and still only 105k EHP.


Yes, others could drop some stuff to get more versatile, but a Raven would sacrifice its only strength by dropping 1 or more launchers. And a Raven with 4 launchers is by far not as versatile as a Phoon... infact a Raven with 4 launchers is horrible.

Others always need to sacrifice their strengths in order to get more versatile, Phoon doesnt need to sacrifice its strength in order to get more versatile, its strength is its versatility...

And TBH a Geddon hasnt got more EHP either, nor a Scorp, nor a Raven, nor a Mega.... if fitted for their strengthsRolling Eyes

Kismo
Posted - 2009.09.05 17:15:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: fuxinos

Others always need to sacrifice their strengths in order to get more versatile, Phoon doesnt need to sacrifice its strength in order to get more versatile, its strength is its versatility...


So what I'm getting out of this is that everyone else has actual strength, and a choice to be versatile. The phoon simply doesn't have that choice. Thus it lacks the actual versatility you claim it has.

Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
Posted - 2009.09.05 17:53:00 - [99]
 

This whole thread is for lulz...
The phoon is a fantastic ship. Period. I don't get why it's inferior to other good Tier 1 BSs tbh...
And I don't get how a geddon is "good" with 3 mids, while a Phoon is "frustrating" with 4.

xOm3gAx
Caldari
Stain of Mind
Posted - 2009.09.05 18:01:00 - [100]
 

I can honestly say the typhoon is fine. In skilled hands its easily one of the best gang bs you can use. they are highly versatile and can handle most situations in close to mid range. There is nothing wrong with them you just have to remember due to the bonus it gets and the split setup you have you skill double for it.


AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.05 19:26:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: fuxinos
Yes, others could drop some stuff to get more versatile, but a Raven would sacrifice its only strength by dropping 1 or more launchers. And a Raven with 4 launchers is by far not as versatile as a Phoon... infact a Raven with 4 launchers is horrible.

Others always need to sacrifice their strengths in order to get more versatile, Phoon doesnt need to sacrifice its strength in order to get more versatile, its strength is its versatility...

And TBH a Geddon hasnt got more EHP either, nor a Scorp, nor a Raven, nor a Mega.... if fitted for their strengthsRolling Eyes


You're comparing apples with oranges, it's quite pointless. There's no argument really.

Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.09.09 18:14:00 - [102]
 

Edited by: Schmell on 09/09/2009 18:15:09
That`s how it gonna be

CCP FIXING Minmatar

fuxinos
Caldari
Guys 0f Sarcasm
Posted - 2009.09.09 19:34:00 - [103]
 

Edited by: fuxinos on 09/09/2009 19:36:51
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: fuxinos
Yes, others could drop some stuff to get more versatile, but a Raven would sacrifice its only strength by dropping 1 or more launchers. And a Raven with 4 launchers is by far not as versatile as a Phoon... infact a Raven with 4 launchers is horrible.

Others always need to sacrifice their strengths in order to get more versatile, Phoon doesnt need to sacrifice its strength in order to get more versatile, its strength is its versatility...

And TBH a Geddon hasnt got more EHP either, nor a Scorp, nor a Raven, nor a Mega.... if fitted for their strengthsRolling Eyes


You're comparing apples with oranges, it's quite pointless. There's no argument really.


So, you clearly lack arguments yourself. Thx for admitting.

: You were the one saying everyone can drop Highs for Neuts or RR, so, you clearly started comparing apples with oranges.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.09 20:31:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: fuxinos
So, you clearly lack arguments yourself. Thx for admitting.

: You were the one saying everyone can drop Highs for Neuts or RR, so, you clearly started comparing apples with oranges.


I'm not even going to touch this. I've been in enough 5 page forum battles to start all over again.

Do yourself a favor and compare the DPS of a siege missile launcher fitted with CN torps and a 800mm AC II fitted with RF EMP on a typhoon. Then look at optimal, falloff, and damage in falloff. Then ask yourself: why in god's name would anyone ever fit autocannons instead of siege launchers?

You think it's versatile because it has options - I'm saying it's versatile because the other option (autocannons) sucks. They're two completely different things. Fitting bonused ACs on a phoon is like fitting unbonused megapulse on a raven - sure you can, but why would you when there's better things that go in those slots?

Anyway, carry on.

Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
Posted - 2009.09.09 20:55:00 - [105]
 

The Phoon falls into the fundamental flaw that is CCP's concept of split weapon systems.

Truth be told it would be easily fixed if they did the 8(5:5) high slot layout and increased the RoF bonuses to 7.5%/lvl.

For the other Split Weapon minmatar ships, an increase to their RoF bonus to 7.5%/lvl would infinitely help them too.

In that way, its some small compensation to what is the travesty of balance CCP seems to employ.

Lumy
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.09.09 21:25:00 - [106]
 

Edited by: Lumy on 09/09/2009 21:26:40
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Do yourself a favor and compare the DPS of a siege missile launcher fitted with CN torps and a 800mm AC II fitted with RF EMP on a typhoon. Then look at optimal, falloff, and damage in falloff. Then ask yourself: why in god's name would anyone ever fit autocannons instead of siege launchers?

You think it's versatile because it has options - I'm saying it's versatile because the other option (autocannons) sucks. They're two completely different things. Fitting bonused ACs on a phoon is like fitting unbonused megapulse on a raven - sure you can, but why would you when there's better things that go in those slots?

Anyway, carry on.

I've said already on SHC and should probably do so here, too:
The whole 5/5 slot request for Typhoon is just devious Minmatar ploy to be able fit 5 siege launchers. NO one sane even considers putting 5 guns + utility on Typhoon. Not even 5/6 would cut it. 6 gun Tempest + 6 slot tank > 6 gun Typhoon + 6 slot tank + damage mod.

So, if you want Typhoon with guns to be at least somehow effective, it should have 7 gun mounts. 8 is imho much, because Maelstrom, tier 3 and so. This would make it versatile. To have ability fit different weapon systems effectively. Split weapon layout does not mean versatile.

Edit: English

Aleus Stygian
Posted - 2009.09.10 01:17:00 - [107]
 

Split weapons setup is crap, it's that simple. But as the Phoon has the additional DPS of drones to rely on...

The OP was spot on. If it were real versatility or actually meaningful bonuses we were talking about here, we'd be considering not only another gun or missile slot, but switching one of the missile or gun bonuses for, say, a TP bonus instead in addition, making it truly 'versatile' and useful to a fleet...

Spaztick
Terminal Impact
Kairakau
Posted - 2009.09.10 01:30:00 - [108]
 

Is the problem with phoon versaility not that siege is good but ACs suck? Now ACs have low fitting requirements and if you need to squeeze in extra DPS it's the way to go, but neuts, remote rep or smartbombs are more useful than ACs, if that tells you anything about the weapon system, as nobody will fit 4 ACs and neuts/etc. because ACs are pretty horrible at battleship level. I'd say the issue is less with split weapons systems and more an issue of large projectile suck, which seems to be the crux of every typhoon/tempest problem.

I personally think the typhoon is fine as is. It conforms to the Minmatar philosophy of combat, which isn't optimal for battleships but works well in skirmish fighters of smaller gangs (at least in theory, good luck out-tracking an Amarr battleship up close or outranging blasters when you're webbed and scrammed to hell by support), because ACs don't have the greatest of anything but at the same time aren't the worst at anything.

Also nerf laser tracking.

Dasalt Istgut
Posted - 2009.09.10 04:39:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: Dasalt Istgut on 10/09/2009 05:00:55
Originally by: fuxinos
Edited by: fuxinos on 04/09/2009 13:18:16
Originally by: Seishi Maru
Fixing AC would already possibly make them worht usignon Typhoon. No need for ship changes if that happens.

Only things realistically chngeable on typhoon would be swap shield and armor. And make it 5/5 turret/ missiles for more focusing.


Even fitting might not be really needed since dominix and geddon also have fitting issues.


Still, the only advantage a Raven would have over Thypoon then, would be + 1 launcher.

But seeing how many disadvantages the Raven would have compared to the Phoon then makes the Raven useless.

I could agree on the 5/5 launcher turret layout, but only if the Raven gets a massive grid and CPU boost + 25m3 bandwith and dronebay.

Otherwise we have a tier 1 BS completly outclassing a tier 2 ship in every possible way.

Sure, the Phoon takes some more SP to fly then most other ships, but thats a side effect that shouldnt be taken into account to the balance of a ship.


The raven is unquestionably worse than the Typhoon, Mega, Domi, Geddon, etc in real world PVP scenarios. Only remotely useful "all-around" setup for the raven is a buffer torp fit. Cruise missiles are so PVE only that they're not even seriously contemplated in PVP threads and RR shield gangs aren't anything you're likely to come across too often for a slew of reasons not worth rehashing. When you then look at the buffer torp the downsides immediately are : difficult time putting DPS on sub-BS ships, fitting issues, can't remote rep, no fitting left over for utility (reps or neuts), less EHP than your typical RR armor setup, worse resists than your typical RR armor setup, etc.

Anyway, PVP raven is a whole different thread and its failures in general don't and shouldn't have any bearing on balancing the phoon.

Regarding the phoon itself - personally at the BS level the only "versatility" I want is a utility high slot for a remote rep or neut - maybe two slots if I have the grid to fit two neuts or two remote reps and a mid slot or two for cap boosters. That's just my opinion. I'd rather see the phoon be a dedicated missile boat or have a 5/5 mid/low slot layout.

kessah
Blood Blind
Posted - 2009.09.10 04:47:00 - [110]
 

The phoons fine for me, the AC's are rubbish on it however (single dmg bonus on an armour tanked ship)

imho its a solid ship and i use it to great effect, solo and clearly others do in gang warfare.

Just my experience though, but i do have maxed skills in all the Battleship (not a brag) but its a different perspective from people that dont have that.

Colonel Xaven
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.10 10:00:00 - [111]
 

Edited by: Colonel Xaven on 10/09/2009 10:00:29
Originally by: kessah
The phoons fine for me, the AC's are rubbish on it however (single dmg bonus on an armour tanked ship)

imho its a solid ship and i use it to great effect, solo and clearly others do in gang warfare.

Just my experience though, but i do have maxed skills in all the Battleship (not a brag) but its a different perspective from people that dont have that.


I can confirm this, and kessah is well known for using BS in a proper way. Even without BS 5 a phoon is very effective, esp. in small scale pvp and solo.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.09.10 10:31:00 - [112]
 

The problem with split weapons is quite a simple one - damage mod stacking.
You cannot fit two damage mods, and gain a 46% damage boost.

Phoon has this in spades, because it has 3 separate weapons that make up large chunks of it's damage output.

But it's not _actually_ a problem like 'everyone says' because ... well, very simply DPS is just a number. Hardpoint layout and weapon bonuses mean very little - what matter is how much damage you do, and at what range.
What actually matters to the 'power' of a ship is mid and low slots - and fitting space.

Now this is where the Phoon starts to suffer, as it's got the same mid+low count as the Armageddon. the extra weapon hardpoint doesn't put it far enough ahead, because it needs two damage mods for everyone one on the Armageddon.


So anyway, the phoon. Doesn't need much fixing, and it did I'd say '+1 mid' and it'd be done. Maybe a smidgin more fitting space.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.10 14:55:00 - [113]
 

Edited by: AstroPhobic on 10/09/2009 14:59:38
Phoon is 8/4/7, Geddon is 8/3/8

ed: nevermind, misread

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.09.10 15:28:00 - [114]
 

I always end up with CPU problems when fitting up a RR-Phoon. Sad
I'm not so sure about the idea of giving it 5/5, it may make a bit too similar to the Raven. Maybe just fixing large ACs would be enough?

The comment about the value of med- and lowslots is very interesting, and puts into words why the new Navy Domi (6,7) will be a horrific overpowered monster, imo.

Karl Luckner
Caldari
Posted - 2009.09.10 15:31:00 - [115]
 

Make it a shield tank. 8/6/5 slot layout, more CPU, change bonus to: 5% missile and projectile rof, 7,5% target painter efficiency. Basicly the BB version of the bellicose.
Gives the minmatar line of ships at least a little bit of continuity. Oh, and reduce the fitting requirenments of shield transfer modules.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.10 15:32:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Aleus Stygian
If it were real versatility or actually meaningful bonuses we were talking about here, we'd be considering not only another gun or missile slot, but switching one of the missile or gun bonuses for, say, a TP bonus instead in addition, making it truly 'versatile' and useful to a fleet...


You know, if the Typhoon got a 5%/level to Target Painter effectiveness as its missing second bonus and all else stayed the same - I would be pretty happy.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2009.09.10 15:35:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: kessah
The phoons fine for me, the AC's are rubbish on it however (single dmg bonus on an armour tanked ship)

imho its a solid ship and i use it to great effect, solo and clearly others do in gang warfare.

Just my experience though, but i do have maxed skills in all the Battleship (not a brag) but its a different perspective from people that dont have that.


The Phoon is a good ship. The HP switch is going to make it slightly better and give it a few K extra EHP, and that was all the ship, imo, needs.

5/5 would be naturally sweet, as would making large acs more effective, but it is effective without those two anyway.




Trader Jjenna
Posted - 2009.09.10 16:29:00 - [118]
 

One problem with split weapons generally on Minnie is that should you choose to try to increase your damage with a mod such as a ballistic control or gyro, at best you are upping the damage on 4 weapons.

I have maximum skills to fly almost every BS (Not the Scorp) split amongst 3 characters.

The phoon is not fail but it needs some small upgrades. I cannot think of any situation where I would not rather have my geddon with its superior damage and tank.

1) swap shield/armor (as in the fleet)
2) 5/5 as suggested by many above
3) slight bump to each bonus to weapon system to compensate for having to split, lose utility of damage upgrade mods, etc.

fuxinos
Caldari
Guys 0f Sarcasm
Posted - 2009.09.10 17:30:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: fuxinos
So, you clearly lack arguments yourself. Thx for admitting.

: You were the one saying everyone can drop Highs for Neuts or RR, so, you clearly started comparing apples with oranges.


I'm not even going to touch this. I've been in enough 5 page forum battles to start all over again.

Do yourself a favor and compare the DPS of a siege missile launcher fitted with CN torps and a 800mm AC II fitted with RF EMP on a typhoon. Then look at optimal, falloff, and damage in falloff. Then ask yourself: why in god's name would anyone ever fit autocannons instead of siege launchers?

You think it's versatile because it has options - I'm saying it's versatile because the other option (autocannons) sucks. They're two completely different things. Fitting bonused ACs on a phoon is like fitting unbonused megapulse on a raven - sure you can, but why would you when there's better things that go in those slots?

Anyway, carry on.


Despite you turning this into an Autocannon rant, you are just backing up my point.

Autocannons are that useless on a Phoon, what makes it ok to just drop them.

Dropping Autocannons on a Phoon, doesnt sacrifice any of its strength, were dropping Megapulse Lasers on a Abaddon for example, sacrifice one of its biggest strengths.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.10 18:24:00 - [120]
 

Then we're not disagreeing? Why else do people think a 6 launcher phoon would be a monster when the maelstrom has the same bonus to two more guns? Becuase acs are (barring rockets) the worst close range weapon system.

If/when ACs get boosted, then yes it would almost be the same as dropping a megapulse. Of course descrepencies exist such as damage mods affecting 1/3rd of the dps rather than 2/3rds, but then take a look at EHP differences and range differences. Apples and oranges.


Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only