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Hexentanz
Amarr
The Eden Trading International Corporation
Violent Entity
Posted - 2009.09.01 05:35:00 - [1]
 

Hi guys

take a look at this picture, i think it says more than words:
http://tetic.ch/wurmloch/data.jpg

Picture changed to link. ~Weatherman

i ask me how cheap T3 cruisers will be in some weeks, the data cores fall in price as fast as the salvage falls appart...

they startet about 1 bil ISK... and now? 300mio? to be continued...

as long as i see they will get cheaper then T1 cruisers...

just thinking about the danger of 0.0 wormhole and how profit from those sleeper complex go in the endless floor, ending up like level4 missions.

i tought that T3 cruisers should been expensive, as they are special, but it seems the people drop der prices in marked, because there is a massive overload, influence, dropping the price to nothing at all.

very interesting, popcorn and market tab already here.

Razz

glas mir
Reaction Scientific
Posted - 2009.09.01 05:41:00 - [2]
 

according to the graph, the datacores have been cheap for about two months.

not sure why that says the finished hull should be cheaper in the next few weeks.

Hexentanz
Amarr
The Eden Trading International Corporation
Violent Entity
Posted - 2009.09.01 05:45:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: glas mir
according to the graph, the datacores have been cheap for about two months.

not sure why that says the finished hull should be cheaper in the next few weeks.


the graphs is just an example

check t3 salvage.. they drop right now in a curve where datacores dropped about 2 months ago :)

Nemi Lethal
Gallente
DarkStar Armada
Posted - 2009.09.01 06:47:00 - [4]
 

Supply and Demand. Anything New CCP introduces into the game seeks balance from Day 1, nothing surprising about the graph.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.09.01 08:55:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Hexentanz
i ask me how cheap T3 cruisers will be in some weeks, the data cores fall in price as fast as the salvage falls appart[...]as long as i see they will get cheaper then T1 cruisers

Oh, they have to tweak a LOT more things before they become as cheap as a T2 cruiser, and some space-time-disturbing tweaks (you know, like pushing a camel through a needle's eye) would have to be made to push the price down to T1 cruiser levels.

By the way, have you looked at nanoribbon salvage lately ? What about some of the gasses ? Yeah... thought so.

Red zeon
Caldari
Sacred Templars
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2009.09.01 09:19:00 - [6]
 

well ccp wanted the t3 to be just a little more expensive than t2 or same price.. didnt they even state that officially?

El Liptonez
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2009.09.01 11:25:00 - [7]
 

They wanted T3 cruisers at 300m.
And since NIM drop rates got boosted, the material cost has gotten even higher (nanoribbons I suppose).

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.09.01 12:44:00 - [8]
 

Technically, it was a personal (and therefore unofficial) remark from the dev in charge of the T3 thingies, and he said something to the extent of "I fully EXPECT them to cost somewhere up to 300 mil ISK tops for the full ship when the startup crazy prices have stabilized and everybody with too much cash has gotten their shiny toy and many others have entered the manufacture business".

Considering who the guy was, you'd expect his unofficial statement to be worth something, but apparently, you'd be wrong.

Of course, he was promptly chastized by just about everybody telling him that at the current (at that time) drop/harvest/RE rates, he's off by at least one order of magnitude in his price estimations... but that didn't stop them from going ahead with those ratios anyway... and several drop/RE ratio adjustments later and a heavy price drop, we're STILL nowhere near those fabled numbers.

Tesal
Posted - 2009.09.02 06:14:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Technically, it was a personal (and therefore unofficial) remark from the dev in charge of the T3 thingies, and he said something to the extent of "I fully EXPECT them to cost somewhere up to 300 mil ISK tops for the full ship when the startup crazy prices have stabilized and everybody with too much cash has gotten their shiny toy and many others have entered the manufacture business".

Considering who the guy was, you'd expect his unofficial statement to be worth something, but apparently, you'd be wrong.

Of course, he was promptly chastized by just about everybody telling him that at the current (at that time) drop/harvest/RE rates, he's off by at least one order of magnitude in his price estimations... but that didn't stop them from going ahead with those ratios anyway... and several drop/RE ratio adjustments later and a heavy price drop, we're STILL nowhere near those fabled numbers.



More "stuff" is being found though, ship volume is up.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.09.02 06:26:00 - [10]
 

Well, of course it is, since they upped the drop rate heaviy on all sybsystems datacores once and the drop rate on the initial salvage bottleneck (neurovisual iSomething matrix) twice already, and they also heavily increased the number of runs obtained in reverse engineering (of sybsystems) and tweaked a few needed components here and there.
The next step will probably be to up the droprate on nanoribbons salvage.
Then either increase gas harvest rate directly, or reduce volumes of gasses so the harvest rate is indirectly boosted.

No wonder the volume increased each time after a patch, since they made it easier//cheaper to build'em Wink

Sojanth
Posted - 2009.09.02 19:23:00 - [11]
 

They have actually made the bottleneck much worse now.
Prior to this last patch the general price drivers on T3 chassis production were:
NIMs -- 61% of production costs
Carbon 86 -- 21%
C3-FTM 7%
Melted Nanoribbons -- 5%

Top 2 Items made up 82% of production costs
Top 4 made up 94%

Now
Melted Nanoribbons -- 79%
Carbon 86 -- 10%
C3-FTM -- 5%
Modified Fluid Routers -- 3%


Top 2 Items now make up 89% of production cost
Top 4 make up 97%

Wow.... excellent job Shocked





Turiel Demon
Minmatar
Celtic industries
Posted - 2009.09.02 21:01:00 - [12]
 

I think MN's are in a bit of a bubble at the moment, that 7m this isn't their 'natural' price so much as it is speculators driving the price up.

Let's say that the bubble bursts and NM's return to market equilibrium level of say... 4 million? T3 ships would be 30% cheaper to produce. Still, that might not actually reduce their price that much, it might just increase profit margins, but I expect there will be a significant price drop over the next few months.

Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
Posted - 2009.09.02 21:21:00 - [13]
 

I'm not happy till sub 100mil t3 cruisers Sad

hmm... *moment of thought*

nah lets take that back, I want them around the 10bil isk each mark. just so I won't have to see another should I use a loki for level 4 mission running post. Neutral

oh and t3 cruisers are nowhere near special enough to justify their cost.

Tangonis Galt
SOMER Blink Transport
Posted - 2009.09.03 05:25:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Manu Hermanus

oh and t3 cruisers are nowhere near special enough to justify their cost.


Yes they are.

Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
Posted - 2009.09.03 06:23:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Tangonis Galt
Originally by: Manu Hermanus

oh and t3 cruisers are nowhere near special enough to justify their cost.


Yes they are.


... Um, if I'm going to pay a billion isk for a cruiser, it had better be one that compares decently to other billion isk ships.

So, can you solo a carrier in it. No.

Can you solo a dread in it? Certainly not.

Can you take on a faction battleship with one. Maybe, but so can a HAC that costs 150m or so.

So, is the T3 cruiser worth 1b isk? No.

Is it a very conveniant and customizable ship that has a lot of great features? Yes, clearly. Would I trade in my Typhoon for one? Sure. Would I trade in my Bhaalgorn for one? Hell, no.

So what is it worth? Well, it's worth somewhat more then a HAC, since they're so versitile, but have all those nice, HAC-like bonuses. 300m for the whole thing sounds about right then.

Huberek Morchu
Posted - 2009.09.03 12:14:00 - [16]
 

Keep in mind they are they only ship that can do a few valuable things. Invulnerable to bubbles. Cruiser size covert cloak. Tractor range bonus. cruiser size scan probe bonus. They are quite good all around exploration ships as they can cloak, scan, fight, and clean up without needing two ships. And of course they can change roles easily. Yes, there is probably a ship that can do any single thing better. But no ship that can do it all adequately. In groups they are even better.

paddytehpyro
Dark-Rising
Posted - 2009.09.03 13:12:00 - [17]
 

A loooong time I ago I believe someone said they were aiming for T3 to be the same price as the T2 above it. So T3 cruisers costing a similar amount as a command ship. Whether this was hull only or hull + one set of subsystems I cant remember. But meh, lower price means more to kill :)

JonShannow
Caldari
Regante
Posted - 2009.09.03 14:04:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Cygnet Lythanea
Originally by: Tangonis Galt
Originally by: Manu Hermanus

oh and t3 cruisers are nowhere near special enough to justify their cost.


Yes they are.


... Um, if I'm going to pay a billion isk for a cruiser, it had better be one that compares decently to other billion isk ships.

So, can you solo a carrier in it. No.

Can you solo a dread in it? Certainly not.

Can you take on a faction battleship with one. Maybe, but so can a HAC that costs 150m or so.

So, is the T3 cruiser worth 1b isk? No.

Is it a very conveniant and customizable ship that has a lot of great features? Yes, clearly. Would I trade in my Typhoon for one? Sure. Would I trade in my Bhaalgorn for one? Hell, no.

So what is it worth? Well, it's worth somewhat more then a HAC, since they're so versitile, but have all those nice, HAC-like bonuses. 300m for the whole thing sounds about right then.


Just wondering what ship can solo dreads and carriers ?

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2009.09.03 19:56:00 - [19]
 

Doesn't surprise me

Lucias Trask
Divine Power.
Posted - 2009.09.03 20:12:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Cygnet Lythanea

... Um, if I'm going to pay a billion isk for a cruiser, it had better be one that compares decently to other billion isk ships.

So, can you solo a carrier in it. No.

Can you solo a dread in it? Certainly not.

Can you take on a faction battleship with one. Maybe, but so can a HAC that costs 150m or so.

So, is the T3 cruiser worth 1b isk? No.

Is it a very conveniant and customizable ship that has a lot of great features? Yes, clearly. Would I trade in my Typhoon for one? Sure. Would I trade in my Bhaalgorn for one? Hell, no.

So what is it worth? Well, it's worth somewhat more then a HAC, since they're so versitile, but have all those nice, HAC-like bonuses. 300m for the whole thing sounds about right then.


Are you kidding? Nothing can solo a non-afk carrier, not even a dread. They are MUUCH more versatile than HAC's. I havent flown my hac's since i got my proteus. With the amount of things you can add, they are pretty damn good. Are they worth the billion i paid for it? Probably not, but factor in i want to fly it.... and yeah that makes it worth it.

Cloak warping, immune to bubbles, 0.0 dream right there.

Regardless, yes i happily overpayed for the thing to get a shiny new toy that i could jet around space in and be relatively immune to everything... cant do much damage, but i can tank this thing like a mother.

Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
Posted - 2009.09.04 02:27:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Cygnet Lythanea

... Um, if I'm going to pay a billion isk for a cruiser, it had better be one that compares decently to other billion isk ships.

So, can you solo a carrier in it. No.

Can you solo a dread in it? Certainly not.

Can you take on a faction battleship with one. Maybe, but so can a HAC that costs 150m or so.

So, is the T3 cruiser worth 1b isk? No.

Is it a very conveniant and customizable ship that has a lot of great features? Yes, clearly. Would I trade in my Typhoon for one? Sure. Would I trade in my Bhaalgorn for one? Hell, no.

So what is it worth? Well, it's worth somewhat more then a HAC, since they're so versitile, but have all those nice, HAC-like bonuses. 300m for the whole thing sounds about right then.


interesting analysis there, now pass whatever you are smoking over here!

and I still say they aren't worth it, a premium over the hac price yes I would be fine with that but the current price I'm just not interested.

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.09.04 03:43:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Well, of course it is, since they upped the drop rate heaviy on all sybsystems datacores once and the drop rate on the initial salvage bottleneck (neurovisual iSomething matrix) twice already, and they also heavily increased the number of runs obtained in reverse engineering (of sybsystems) and tweaked a few needed components here and there.
The next step will probably be to up the droprate on nanoribbons salvage.
Then either increase gas harvest rate directly, or reduce volumes of gasses so the harvest rate is indirectly boosted.

No wonder the volume increased each time after a patch, since they made it easier//cheaper to build'em Wink

They would also have to decrease the size of all drops across the board, or give every ship in EvE a "T3 raw/refined material" bay (or both) considering one of the issues is still haveing to break off from what your doing to haul everything out.

and you realise whats going to happen when they start to roll out the other T3 ships.

Honestly for people who spend all there time developing all of this its painfully obvious they never even try to do a rough scketch of the numbers to see what would realy be needed, its just "lets pull this out of our <<ARROW>> and fling it against the wall a few times untill it sticks, and if it will not eventualy they get bored with it and go on to something else.

Huberek Morchu
Posted - 2009.09.04 12:21:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Steve Thomas

Honestly for people who spend all there time developing all of this its painfully obvious they never even try to do a rough scketch of the numbers to see what would realy be needed, its just "lets pull this out of our <<ARROW>> and fling it against the wall a few times untill it sticks, and if it will not eventualy they get bored with it and go on to something else.


Thats not fair to CCP. They cant predict human behavior. There is no way to tell how many people will go into wormholes, how much they will get, what they will value their time or the ships at. And a lot of the mechanics are random. Which is why they have to try and balance constantly. But given the players cant agree on anything, you cant satisfy everyone.

Janice Jankowski
Posted - 2009.09.04 14:08:00 - [24]
 

according to you graph, lower prices have increased sales volumes, which means more t3 ships are being built (which will lower their prices too).

Seems to be working as intended

S0mvera Delament
Posted - 2009.09.04 14:30:00 - [25]
 

make them 300-400 mil with subs included

Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
Posted - 2009.09.04 14:40:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Huberek Morchu
Originally by: Steve Thomas

Honestly for people who spend all there time developing all of this its painfully obvious they never even try to do a rough scketch of the numbers to see what would realy be needed, its just "lets pull this out of our <<ARROW>> and fling it against the wall a few times untill it sticks, and if it will not eventualy they get bored with it and go on to something else.


Thats not fair to CCP. They cant predict human behavior. There is no way to tell how many people will go into wormholes, how much they will get, what they will value their time or the ships at. And a lot of the mechanics are random. Which is why they have to try and balance constantly. But given the players cant agree on anything, you cant satisfy everyone.


Akita T (or was just pointing the fact some people were) was rather certain that t3 ships would cost an order of magnitude more then what ccp "wanted" back when t3 was still test server only.

and either way it would make sense to put drop rates in the "high" range just to try and saturate the market as fast as possible.

eh... but what the hell do I know?

Aimee Skye
Posted - 2009.09.05 14:14:00 - [27]
 

At this point the wild fluctuation in melted nanoribbons make it too costly and too speculative to produce much more in T3. CCP should look into the jump from ~1M to now over 9M cost in the melted nanoribbons. If the intent of the developers is to make T3 Cruisers more of a norm then they need to develop some price control or easier availability of the components. Could it be possible to create a process where some of these items can be processed like T2 components (Sylramic fibers) from Moon mining (or similar). By having an alternative method of getting materials it would deter market anomolies from speculation.

But back to the point - I am shutting down my line until the melted nanoribbons get back between 3m-5m and look stable.

Jonathan Calvert
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.09.06 12:24:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Aimee Skye
At this point the wild fluctuation in melted nanoribbons make it too costly and too speculative to produce much more in T3. CCP should look into the jump from ~1M to now over 9M cost in the melted nanoribbons. If the intent of the developers is to make T3 Cruisers more of a norm then they need to develop some price control or easier availability of the components. Could it be possible to create a process where some of these items can be processed like T2 components (Sylramic fibers) from Moon mining (or similar). By having an alternative method of getting materials it would deter market anomolies from speculation.

But back to the point - I am shutting down my line until the melted nanoribbons get back between 3m-5m and look stable.


I agree. Ive basically done the same. I would like to see some balance between the cost of the different categories of subsystems as well. The good news is, if we stop buying MN, price should come down.


 

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