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Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2009.08.25 13:45:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
excellent stuff


Excellent stuff there Bartholomeus.

Lt Forge
Pilots Of Honour
Aeternus.
Posted - 2009.08.25 15:44:00 - [32]
 

Gallenteans: 'The west'
Caldari: Communism combined with national socialism Shocked

Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2009.08.25 16:31:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 25/08/2009 16:44:33
Originally by: Alexeph Stoekai
EVE has never had any good guys. The general structure of the Federation just happens to mesh quite well with what we'd expect from a modern civilized nation.

In reality it's not so great, and I'm happy that the cracks are showing.

Sure, even in a setting of 'Shades of Gray' you need lighter and darker shades. That doesn't mean that the Federation should be, or was ever, "the beacon of all that is good and just."

I'm not sure the start of that is an entirely fair assessment. Just as I disagree with Anhk's assertion that you need an entire group/figurehead to be good guys, I think to assert that EVE has no good guys is equally incorrect. The distinction perhaps is that EVE along with other mature RPGs makes it quite clear that there are good people and bad people, and almost never will you find a single group that is all good or all bad, by one's own definitions.

There have been plenty of paragons in EVE's backstory - people doing what they believe is right and damn the consequences - but more often they are condemned rather than supported by their people/government for stepping outside the accepted norms, regardless of which group that is. As has been argued, what the President is trying to do is perhaps for good/positive reasons, but nevertheless goes against the Gallente norm. Is he good or bad for that? It can't be answered objectively - one must first filter the question based on one's own bias, put oneself in the same situation and ask 'would I do that?'.

I don't think one can ever have absolute good or bad, either in a game or reality, nor, despite the slightly sardonic nature of the comments, do many games actually try to achieve that (for example a thorough student of the Warcraft universe would know that the simplification of WoW into two sides is far from accurate or fair). Indeed we cannot define good or bad without recourse to our own experiences; this is exemplified in the statement 'one person's freedom fighter is another's terrorist'.

After all, as a character in another sci-fi genre once said far more eloquently than I, what do any of us do except what we feel is a good idea at the time?
Originally by: Lt Forge
Gallenteans: 'The west'
Caldari: Communism combined with national socialism Shocked

Not really a fair simplification, ignoring that national socialism as a political concept is very loosely defined beyond 'what that guy in the 1940s did' as that is the only recorded use of the term when applied to a political party/government.

Arguably, current Western nations mirror both Gallente & Caldari in different ways to different degrees - certainly none match either extreme as far as I can see.

Katrina Bekers
Gallente
Fighters Squadron
Posted - 2009.08.25 21:17:00 - [34]
 

Nice chronicle. A good change of pace from Abraxas' more artistic and sophisticated, less mundane and informative work.

I disagree with the very first sentence of this thread. This is not a shift. It's more of a counter-shift. The real shift happened then.

...Aaand, "Gnauton", by chance, a contraption of Gnothi Seauton (whose greek translation would be "know yourself")? Wink

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2009.08.26 01:02:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
Ohh, and old Jacky Roden didn't save the Gallentean Federation. He only saved his business being nationalised and taken away from him. Nationalisation of the Gallentean military-industrial complex may have been in the best interest of the common good, and as such, may have been achieved in the State. But in the Federation, nationalisation of any effort is not in the self-interest of the individual, and clashes fundamentally with the personal freedom if the individual to run his corporation without government interference.

Old Jacky Roden may have claimed to have saved the Federation from an authoritarian president for the holoreels, but any well thinking Gallentean will instantly recognise that he just didn't want to lose control of his arms-empire. And given that all other gun-dealers basically didn't want to either, they joined hands even with someone like Jacky Roden (who isn't very popular among that crowd), to get what they want. Obviously, "the common good" played no role in this what-so-ever.

And now Jacky Roden is testing the waters on what exactly he can gain from his new-found position of influence. The pieces are moving, the game is on!


Roden saving the Federation was not on his intent. That is my point. He was acting out of self interest, and the Federation did not reach that goal of nationalizaion.

Hence the irony. True freedom is not maintained well by freaks who pretend to cherish it above their own self interest. There is usually a dark side to that type. People working in their own self interest by entering into voluntary contracts and cooperation, outside of the auspices and without approval under a central authoroty is the embodiment of freedom.

This is why I say that Roden saved teh Federation by defying it.

Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
Posted - 2009.08.26 08:16:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
stuff
I suppose I was making a bit of a hyperbole. It might be more fair to say that EVE has never had any indisputable good guys.

It takes both black and white to make gray. The Gallente have a bit more white than the Amarr and the Caldari, but there's still plenty of black.

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.08.26 11:26:00 - [37]
 

I do not know what is best: this chronicle or Bartholomeus Crane explaining the differences between Gallente and Caldari societies. Never the less both were an entertaining read.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.08.26 12:16:00 - [38]
 

Very good reading.

This is exactly what I like those chronicals to be :-)

And very interesting implications also.

All in all: good stuff.

Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2009.08.26 16:04:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Lt Forge
Gallenteans: 'The west'
Caldari: Communism combined with national socialism Shocked

Too easy.

Both are capitalistic on principle, only the former is entrepreneurial while the later is corporatism. Equal pay and the dictatorship of the masses is a concept foreign to both. In the former, if you're not good enough you'll fall through the cracks of the system, in the later you'll remain in the system but end up doing hard labour mining veldspar on some gods forsaken rock. In the Federation you can make a fortune by knowing the right people and greasing some palms (on way or another), in the State you work hard enough and kiss enough arse. Neither system is good, or necessarily evil.

When it comes to national socialism or fascistism, it is only natural that it can establish itself in the State, for the same reasons why it can only fail miserably in the Federation. In the State, hierarchy is a given, and the population needs little effort for 'gleichschaltung'. And since, by necessity, a large portion of the industrial effort is already geared towards military application, either State sponsored or corporation-based, progressive radicalism is already available and inherent in the system. Anything efficient, i.e. that which makes the trains run on time, is worthwhile exploiting, for the benefit of the whole ofcourse.

Not so for the Federation. Military application or efficiency is an expedient for individual development, and should never hamper it. Personal fulfilment, even in extreme forms is paramount, and good Isk can be made providing it (check out Caduceus, on Sovicou, or rather, don't). Limits to it are endured only until they can be removed. The Federation will never, can never walk in step with the company line. In the State you get born walking in step.

The difference is fundamental. Although this may be a strength of the State, the Federation counters it through sheer idealism and passion, however ill-suited, misplaced, and ill-guided it often is. Where in the State thousands will join the fray because of orders or because of the notion that it will result in eventual improvement for all, in the Federation thousands will lay down their lives voluntarily and without force, simply because they believe it is the right thing to do, whether it is welcome for the recipient or not.

Doctor Cal'torien
Gallente
The Vikings of the Black Sea
Posted - 2009.08.26 21:05:00 - [40]
 

very interesting. the political landscape of Galliente is changing

Nito Musashi
Posted - 2009.08.27 04:20:00 - [41]
 

amazing how eve is mirroring the world these days, like the west with the govermental take over of the banks and car industries and lending institutions.

ebank crumbling under debt and toxic assets much like the banks in the west.

creepy stuff indeed, good story btw.

AstraPardus
Industrial Star Command
Spectres of the Deep
Posted - 2009.08.27 06:49:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Alexeph Stoekai
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
stuff
I suppose I was making a bit of a hyperbole. It might be more fair to say that EVE has never had any indisputable good guys.

It takes both black and white to make gray. The Gallente have a bit more white than the Amarr and the Caldari, but there's still plenty of Blaque.


Fix'd. :D

Yuki Nomura
Posted - 2009.08.27 15:48:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Meh.

Nationalizing the arms industry and FINALLY doing something against the Caldari was the first and only good thing Foiritan did.

And this Roden doesn't have any appeal to me either. There needs to be an unmistakable Good Guy as president so the Gallente are once again the beacon of all that is good and just in the EVE universe. Anything less will just make them another Caldari flavor, there needs to be more to set the Gallente apart from the Caldari.

Gallente = Freedom, democracy, complex culture, wealth for joe average, happy happy joy.
Caldari = Extreme capitalism, militarism, dark tyranny and oppression of the individual.


Only one problem with that. A democratic and elected government such as your simple = states Does not and never will exist not in eve or in reality. Corruption deceit dark paths back room deals and working in the best interest of only those that put you in power and not the ones that elected you are the true meaning of Democracy.

Signed Spc Anon 1st Cav Div. Live the Legend indeed

Ancula
Posted - 2009.08.27 20:39:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
Originally by: XnS dVd
Why... does the corporal seem to be telling the sergeant what to do though?

Because he's the man on the spot? All modern military systems, from the general staff of the German Empire onwards recognise that slavishly following orders is counter productive and that encouraging initiative and the freedom to act within a well-established and uniformly taught command system is needed to react appropriately and timely to a changing combat environment. In fact, such a necessity was already recognised in Clausewitz's time, as such a freedom of action reduces battlefield friction, and allows the attainment of victory in the fog of war. I could go on describing the reasons for why this is necessary, but basically it is an accurate description of what is happening daily on the modern battlefield today.


They're both "on the spot". A better explanation is that it is an error and the story's author doesn't understand military rank structures. A couple obvious reasons:
  • The interior monologue of the "Corporal" about PR and his target being crazy also belies a level of sophistication of thought far beyond your average junior NCO.

  • What are the odds than an elite unit which requires such a high level of autonomy/freedom of action would be commanded by a Corporal? Zero. Unless it happened during the fog of war as a function of attrition which clearly isn't the case here.

We could go on, but let's just call a duck a duck, it is an error. The author should do a find and replace substituting Captain for Corporal and bump the entire piece up a few levels of believability.

On an unrelated note: Anyone else wonder why Blaque didn't just call Roden in the first place if he was that easy to get on the horn?

Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2009.08.28 10:29:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Bartholomeus Crane on 28/08/2009 10:29:55
Originally by: Ancula
They're both "on the spot". A better explanation is that it is an error and the story's author doesn't understand military rank structures. A couple obvious reasons:
  • The interior monologue of the "Corporal" about PR and his target being crazy also belies a level of sophistication of thought far beyond your average junior NCO.

  • What are the odds than an elite unit which requires such a high level of autonomy/freedom of action would be commanded by a Corporal? Zero. Unless it happened during the fog of war as a function of attrition which clearly isn't the case here.

We could go on, but let's just call a duck a duck, it is an error. The author should do a find and replace substituting Captain for Corporal and bump the entire piece up a few levels of believability.

On an unrelated note: Anyone else wonder why Blaque didn't just call Roden in the first place if he was that easy to get on the horn?


Or, you are just making mountains out of molehills?

As an alternative explanation you could argue that his is an elite unit where its members have worked with each other for a long time and have participated in these types of operations many times over, and as such, the hierarchical structure, as in most elite units, makes little difference "on the ground"? There is plenty of reference available where experienced non-coms make the actual decisions on the battlefield with commissioned officers or less experienced non-coms tacitly accepting their judgement in practical matters.

Also, the "level of sophisticated thought" shown by the Corporal isn't out of place for one who would have been briefed extensively on the person they were apprehending. Moreover, Jackies reputation of being a something of a hermit should be considered to be well-known in Gallente society. The PR angle may have been because of earlier experience as well. Non-coms aren't stupid, in fact most military organisations are practically run by them. Flexibility of the command structure on the battlefield is a feature of the modern military, why would it not be so for the Black Eagles?

Moreover, the sergeant may have chosen to lead the company by himself, leaving his trusted and experienced corporal as a reserve and communications link to provide overall battlefield intelligence. This may even have come about as a result of a bounding advance, it now being the corporals turn to provide overwatch. You can even interpret the chronicle as the corporal acknowledging a tactic or strategy agreed upon in advance or part of SOP, instead of ordering him around.

So calling it an error maybe a bit strong. Although I do agree that making the corporal a captain, or rather lieutenant, would have been more natural, as this would remove the need for all these explanations.

On your unrelated note: because Blaque didn't want to tip Roden off that they were coming for him? Element of surprise and all that?

BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2009.09.03 11:34:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: BiggestT on 03/09/2009 11:34:41
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
A+


Excellent posting! It's remarkable to see proper use of the english language for once; using proper, refined words such as, "megalomaniacal" and "duplicitous" is quite refreshing on these forums. Wink

Great Artista
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.09.05 12:39:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
And this Roden doesn't have any appeal to me either. There needs to be an unmistakable Good Guy as president so the Gallente are once again the beacon of all that is good and just in the EVE universe. Anything less will just make them another Caldari flavor, there needs to be more to set the Gallente apart from the Caldari.

Gallente = Freedom, democracy, complex culture, wealth for joe average, happy happy joy.
Caldari = Extreme capitalism, militarism, dark tyranny and oppression of the individual.
I hope you are joking.


People are essentially the same, its nice to see the boundaries of the races blur. I have the most interest towards caldari, so obviously I'm hoping for more material dealing with the lives of the people on the slippery ladders of the corporate structures, from average-joes to managers; to know how the Caldari society really works.

Thanks for this piece though! Very Happy

OmDj
Posted - 2009.09.06 16:03:00 - [48]
 

Most of these stories are so boring. They have nothing to do with us, the pilots. Whoever keeps writing these stories keep talking about people we never see or talk to.
I did a Google search for just capsuleers. There were I think maybe 2 or 3 stories directly related to us. And then there were some were the podders were simply referenced to as the 'flying-monsters who simply kill, take what we want and move on'.
And the majority were these boring stories like this Burning man or whatever the hell the title is. Nothing what so ever to do with the audience or even any way to relate to them.

What's the point of these stories? CCP just wastes money hiring people to write ****ty stories instead of making the game more fun? The stories/chronicles in WoW for example are fun to read after you have been in the world and seen what the characters are talking about.

Captain Baja
Posted - 2009.09.10 02:51:00 - [49]
 

Is the enemy of my enemy my friend?

Azura Noctis
Amarr
SWARTA
Posted - 2009.11.04 09:17:00 - [50]
 

Reminds you of the actions taken in post 9/11 America, patriot act, and some calls for nationalization by extreme pro-government groups.

Resipsa Loquitor
Black Nova Corp
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.24 23:51:00 - [51]
 

Painting looks like a Modigliani.

Big fan of his work.


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