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Sargeant Bash
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.08.24 12:58:00 - [1]
 

Sorry guys for another Dust post however just thinking (any chance of a normal none troll discussion perhaps?)

CCP want to do something about 0.0 sov and this goes some way to help that.
Its says that alliances can ARM and CONTRACT duskies
Major powerblocs have been established in eve for some time, MM, Goons, PL, Razor, AAA etc all own large chunks of eve. Of course CCP wont just remove their hold on space.
But these guys have bucket loads of ISK and have the means to mass produce ammo etc.
So my question is how is this still going to help smaller alliances, newer alliance etc compete, these guys can through as much cash as they want to the duskies along with ammo.
Duskies wont go to the smaller alliances, because it will just become the same as eve the bigger the gangs/isk is where people will go.
No duskies will go do a contract if they are likely to get attacked by another much larger group, think of blobbage but on a FPS scale.

So we are just going to get the same scenario, thus nothing changes. Infact I feel that the major alliances will only get stronger and the others well just disappear as usual and have no way to compete as they dont have any isk or anything on the scale of the already larger alliances.

So i dunno, what do you do? Personally I think to make it really fair create another eve universe (yes keep the one we have now!) but a complete new one, no char transfers, isk transfers etc, and only new chars, so everyone starts from scratch (OK before you start no need to get personal and flame its just an idea like everyone elses)

Not saying this is the way just thinking, maybe theres something else, but i just dont think its going to solve the issue, infact it may make it a whole lot worse!

maybe im wrong...we shall see i guess.

Joe
Umbra Legion
Shadow Empire.
Posted - 2009.08.24 13:01:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Sargeant Bash

CCP want to do something about 0.0 sov and this goes some way to help that.
Its says that alliances can ARM and CONTRACT duskies


You cant call the 'Duskies', its confusing and sounds too much like 'Rustys', The name for the Minmater Faction war Fleets.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2009.08.24 13:05:00 - [3]
 

I am sorry but I don't have enough solid information on DUST to comment on the matter.

Vysnaite
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.08.24 13:12:00 - [4]
 

Money will win in any situation. Like in RL money=power, so no matter what changes CCP brings to 0.0, money will be one of the key factors.
As they said - gear and stuff will be bought by money, which the hiring corp gives to merc, the more you give the better gear they get.
Although were gambling on the bits of information that CCP threw down to the hungry dogs.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.08.24 13:29:00 - [5]
 

Now 0.0 sov holders spend a lot of ISK on POS fuel, in the future they will spend the ISK on the dustbunnies instead.

So no difference at all tbh.

Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
Bloody Amarr's
Posted - 2009.08.24 14:11:00 - [6]
 

and how your small alliance compete now ? With all that cyno jamers crap

Cybelee
Caldari
Gods Unwanted
Posted - 2009.08.24 14:27:00 - [7]
 

I think it may give the smaller alliances a chance to get at the big boys.

A lot of people like to be against it especially in FPS so who knows the Dust players may go against the grain and opt to help out the smaller groups.

Well i hope so anyway as i personally feel some alliances in Eve today could do with a bit more competition.

Synex
Gallente
PCG Enterprises
Posted - 2009.08.24 14:30:00 - [8]
 

Personally, i'll always fight for the underdog, it's a LOT more fun than completely wiping the floor with someone.

By going for the underdog, sure you'll be kicked down a lot of the time... but when you win, those wins are SO much sweeter.

Tamahra
Gallente
Apina.
United Pod Service
Posted - 2009.08.24 14:30:00 - [9]
 

it has always been like that. more money = more power. in real live and in eve.

but the current sov systems make it all very stale and static and boring. this will most likely change with dust.

Itll probably be like this: as a small corp or alliance, you cant completely take a planet away from the huge alliances but you can annoy them by taking a sector away.

Cybelee
Caldari
Gods Unwanted
Posted - 2009.08.24 14:34:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Tamahra

Itll probably be like this: as a small corp or alliance, you cant completely take a planet away from the huge alliances but you can annoy them by taking a sector away.


Sounds fun to me :)

WeaponsHot
Posted - 2009.08.24 14:38:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: WeaponsHot on 24/08/2009 14:39:07
Originally by: Tamahra
it has always been like that. more money = more power. in real live and in eve.


Incorrect comparison...

like any strategic game "more explored resources" + "more unit numbers" = "more power"

In contrast... power on EVE is relative...

Just a single/few units are enough to bring down the mighty aliance regardless their power, numbers/resources.



Tenchuu Khaan
Posted - 2009.08.24 14:45:00 - [12]
 

There's still the "Disband Alliance" button you know

Sargeant Bash
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.08.24 16:25:00 - [13]
 

Either way going to be interesting . I agree about the underdog thing but that soon gets annoying when you constantly get hammered..and billion isk to one alliance could be pennies to another..small alliances just could keep contracting especially with no space for income the big allances have billions banked and a constant stream of billions to fund..if you where a dust gang would you go for someone offering a billion contract or some smaller alliance offering 50-100 million ..I think we know the answer..I see this personally as a massive issue that will not solve the problem only make it worse..but that's me ;)

Kuar Z'thain
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.24 16:30:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Abrazzar
I am sorry but I don't have enough solid information on DUST to comment on the matter.


All threads on DUST should say only this.

Schalac
Caldari
Apocalypse Reign
Posted - 2009.08.24 19:41:00 - [15]
 

Most small arms/munitions in EVE are dirt cheap due to how much more valuable ISK is to other currencies in the universe. I'm thinking that a million ISK would fund a well supplied DUST group.

Also you have think in terms of how a FPS is different than RPG. In RS:V2 I can use a much weaker gun than you and still win most times due to me being better at that game than most people. Also strategics and teamwork will win over the best geared people 99% of the time, and from what I've seen of "goons" in their "private rooms" they suck. Too much time spent by them making fun of "pubbies" than actually playing them and getting better.

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2009.08.24 20:06:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Shadowsword on 24/08/2009 20:09:32
Originally by: Sargeant Bash
...
So we are just going to get the same scenario, thus nothing changes. Infact I feel that the major alliances will only get stronger and the others well just disappear as usual and have no way to compete as they dont have any isk or anything on the scale of the already larger alliances.



It seems you're assuming that Dust should allow weak entities to take space from strong ones.

This is completely false. Dust is a way to enrich gameplay, and attrack more players into the Eve universe, nothing more.

Also, you're missing something important. Money is a tool, it make things more convenient, but if you lose a war, it's not because the other one has more money. For examples, you could check the histories of Fountain Alliance, ASCN, BoB, and many more. All very, very rich, to the point money wasn't any signifiant factor, all all have been defeated, often be poorer alliances.

War in Eve is simply a contest of will. Every alliance currently holding a slice of 0.0 proved it had the will to fight for it, and to keep it from others. They wouldn't be there if it wasn't the case. You CAN do it, too. You can wrestle control of constellations or regions from other alliances, alone or with the help of other entities. Or you can hit them until they start thinking they'd rather have you as allies than as enemies. But both of those ways to achieve it include to be more persistent than other 0.0 players. Do you have what it takes?

Quote:

So i dunno, what do you do? Personally I think to make it really fair create another eve universe (yes keep the one we have now!) but a complete new one, no char transfers, isk transfers etc, and only new chars, so everyone starts from scratch (OK before you start no need to get personal and flame its just an idea like everyone elses)



Again, what makes you think you'd have a slice of 0.0 even in a brand new universe? If you can't have one here, you won't have the capability to have one in another server. Or at least, not for long.

The same large alliances already existing would also come to take over 0.0. There's quite a lot a us who would like the opportunity of a fresh start, with all the knowledge and social relations we've built up. Just imagine the way you could speculate on the market if everything was reset. I wouldn't give it a month before the NC, AAA, GS & Co claim most or all of 0.0, including all chokepoints and accesses.

Kheg Archon
Minmatar
Two Smoking Barrels
Posted - 2009.08.24 20:28:00 - [17]
 

Lack of control over a just single district of a given planet could disrupt a large alliance. With so many planets and so many districts to protect the large alliances are going to have a very hard time no matter how much money they have. I would bet that you will find them downsizing and giving room for more alliances to move into 0.0.

T'san Manaan
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.08.24 20:53:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Joe
Originally by: Sargeant Bash

CCP want to do something about 0.0 sov and this goes some way to help that.
Its says that alliances can ARM and CONTRACT duskies


You cant call the 'Duskies', its confusing and sounds too much like 'Rustys', The name for the Minmater Faction war Fleets.



Hmm... that's wierd I could have sworn I read somewhere that you got banned for RMT :)

Atlas Oracle
Minmatar
Colossus Enterprises
Posted - 2009.08.24 21:45:00 - [19]
 

wtf is DUST?

mechtech
SRS Industries
SRS.
Posted - 2009.08.24 21:52:00 - [20]
 

It's better than you think...

Although small alliances will still get clobbered by big rich alliances, that's how it should be tbh. What this change does is take away the POS man hours. Thus, a small elite group of pilots supported by a group of elite traders can very well take on big 1000 man+ alliances, which isn't possible as of now.

A step in the right direction, and to me it may even be a perfect sov system.

Cybelee
Caldari
Gods Unwanted
Posted - 2009.08.24 22:00:00 - [21]
 

There are alot of people worrying and having negative ideas on how Dust will effect Eve as we know it.

I think this is going to add to the awesome world of eve in a good way. It will definately spice things up. Hell it already has and its not even released ;)

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2009.08.24 22:12:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Kheg Archon
Lack of control over a just single district of a given planet could disrupt a large alliance. With so many planets and so many districts to protect the large alliances are going to have a very hard time no matter how much money they have.


This is pure speculation. Only CCP know precisely how control mechanics and offense/defense will work out. For all you know, maybe the big alliance will recieve a mail each time and will have the means to zerg the attackers before they can do anything.

Quote:

I would bet that you will find them downsizing and giving room for more alliances to move into 0.0.


That's the same kind of wishfull thinking that created doomsdays as an anti-blob weapon. We all know how it worked out....

Amanda Mor
Gallente
Posted - 2009.08.24 22:41:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Abrazzar
I am sorry but I don't have enough solid information on DUST to comment on the matter.


Take your completely reasonable and logical responses somewhere else loser!! This forum is for taking small nuggets of information completely out of context, inflating them to the size of Mount Everest, and predicting the death of EVE.

Your type of response only serves to inflame the forums with waves of calm and reasoned thinking, and nobody wants that. It's people like you that are causing the death of nerdrage posts and emoragequits. You disgust me.

Kheg Archon
Minmatar
Two Smoking Barrels
Posted - 2009.08.25 03:09:00 - [24]
 

"For all you know, maybe the big alliance will recieve a mail each time and will have the means to zerg the attackers before they can do anything." What you write makes perfect sense. Rolling Eyes

Downsizing or refortification is a common tactic when an organization suddenly finds themselves stretched too thin. It may not be a welcomed strategy, but thats what it could very well come down to.

Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Kheg Archon
Lack of control over a just single district of a given planet could disrupt a large alliance. With so many planets and so many districts to protect the large alliances are going to have a very hard time no matter how much money they have.


This is pure speculation. Only CCP know precisely how control mechanics and offense/defense will work out. For all you know, maybe the big alliance will recieve a mail each time and will have the means to zerg the attackers before they can do anything.

Quote:

I would bet that you will find them downsizing and giving room for more alliances to move into 0.0.


That's the same kind of wishfull thinking that created doomsdays as an anti-blob weapon. We all know how it worked out....


ShardowRhino
Caldari
Torque Theory
Posted - 2009.08.25 04:58:00 - [25]
 




hahaha, the major flaw with the OP's thoughts is that FPS players are like eve players. A lot of FPS players are looking to make a name for themselves. You can't do that if you are attacking a smaller group with superior numbers all while using better gear.

You get it by killing more people with less then a fair fight. I am hoping this game goes like Planetside, if so then you will have groups that will want to take on the bigger groups with inferior numbers.


I myself preferred to be the one to break a hole in the other side's line. Sure it got me killed a lot but it got results. Another thing it did was also get people to notice me. Why? Because instead of 20 people trying to get something done it would just be me. The difference is that blobs don't have balls. Sometimes it just takes 1 person with balls to do what 20 others are to afraid to do.


Another thing is leadership. Sure assembling a blob and calling targets isn't much in the way of leadership. It doesn't take much of a brain to realize which targets should get dropped first. The ships don't move about all that much, theres no battleplan in the sense of how to move your forces around to help you beat the other side. In a big fps game you will need that. You won't need the blob if you can get a good group that knows how to take an order and give them a guy that knows how to lead. You will end up getting far more out of that small group then an fps blob.


THe mentality between EVE and FPS games vary greatly. While the big alliances will attract the masses they won't attract the quality players with their isk. Also we haven't, or at least I have not seen what gear is going to be available in Dust and how much it is going to cost. If you can buy a frigate for a 100,000+isk and its a warship, I'm sure you can field several tanks for that or warehouses full of small arms for the same price. Of course a tank could end up costing the same as a BC in EVE, I don't know. It would be an insane translation rate between isk for ships and isk for Dust gear.


In the end the best are not going to be gunning for the biggest payout, dust gear might be cheap enough that all alliances end up being the same. Quality players will feel trapped and suffocating if they are with the blob groups. Not everyone works best in a blob. E-peen is king as opposed to isk or systems so give them a chance to bust up quality targets and they will be happy, even if the check isn't that big.


What I don't like is the idea that DUST might just be a thing to help the 0.0 players. If the numbers are good enough I would hope it would also go into FW as well. Honestly I would like to get into DUST when it comes out but im not excited about helping out a faceless alliance that I'm not a part of. All i could do is help an alliance or two that a few friends of mine are in but it wouldn't be the same.


I'm going to guess that DUST would have to avoid a monthly fee in order to get enough players to stock the waters with. That or it would have to be lower then EVE.

ShardowRhino
Caldari
Torque Theory
Posted - 2009.08.25 05:09:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Tamahra
it has always been like that. more money = more power. in real live and in eve.

but the current sov systems make it all very stale and static and boring. this will most likely change with dust.

Itll probably be like this: as a small corp or alliance, you cant completely take a planet away from the huge alliances but you can annoy them by taking a sector away.




Money might help you buy more people to help you and give them the best gear but it does not automatically get you the win. Smaller, lesser equipped forces can do damage to the side with more money. Its all in how you operate and how well you can think.

So while the big alliances might get blobs of fps nubs and give them the best gear, smaller alliances might attract higher quality ,yet smaller groups. My money would be put on the smaller groups being able to take on 2 to 3 times the numbers and doing more damage then the nub blob with great gear.


Of course we simply do not know how the game is going to play out. There could be a limit in how many players per side can be in a sector at once. The side with the better players will win because the big,rich alliance cannot dump all of their nubs with better gear into one area at a time.


Right now I look forward to the game coming out but I'm not going to worry or care about alliances with the most isk. It might have an effect but I doubt its going to assure them victory.

Hell smaller groups might just harrass the hell out of the larger alliances. Turn it into an attrition based game. If you can kill a big pricey unit with cheap units then you still score a win, even if your smaller units get wiped out. People will notice that and some will start to do that kind of crap to frustrate the big alliances.

Is there a New Afghanistan planet in 0.0? If not I have a feeling there will be.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2009.08.25 06:59:00 - [27]
 



dust / (power+money) = 1


Frankly, the implications of all this are staggering.

Cpt Cosmic
Posted - 2009.08.25 07:19:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 25/08/2009 07:18:58
I bet that dust wont change any sov but will make it easier to get it and all the rage over the internet is just planned by ccp thus the game advertises by itself hehe

Rick Rothsar
Ghosts of Ragnarok
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.08.25 07:55:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Sargeant Bash

Duskies wont go to the smaller alliances, because it will just become the same as eve the bigger the gangs/isk is where people will go.
No duskies will go do a contract if they are likely to get attacked by another much larger group, think of blobbage but on a FPS scale.





Speaking as someone who played a lot of FPS prior to playing EVE, if I'm going to get paid the same amount of cash (assuming CCP caps the ISK that can be put down on Dust contracts - a big 'if', I know) to be part of a 4000-man squad going after a 100-man squad or part of a 100-man squad with 4000 targets, I'm actually going to choose to be part of the 100.

For example, if let's say you put us in a 14 vs 2 in like, another shooter, we'll go with Halo (because it's console and so will be Dust). Those two guys may lose their objective, ultimately, but if those 14 can't find the enemy snipers fast enough to rout them out, they can kill the 14 dozens of times over, resulting in uber stats and (assuming the MMO part rings true) crazy kill rewards or XP bonuses for fighting outnumbered. There is no advantage of being one of the 14 aggressors, because in a sniper situation, there's a whole lot of friendlies who end up with problems even trying to find a few hostiles, while the hostiles end up with tons of targets around them, and the K/D ratio will play extremely favorably to their advantage.

There are a lot of FPS players who don't give a crap which side they'll end up fighting for, they only care about kills and stats. Blobbage is very, very different in FPS than in EVE Online fleet combat.

I'm going to wait 'til Fanfest to find out if Dust is going to be good or bad, but I thought I'd mention that the tactic of blobbing can be very differently viewed in FPS, and the argument that this will strengthen sov-holders' power is a little premature given the lack of details we have so far.

Sargeant Bash
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.08.25 09:07:00 - [30]
 

It's been a pleasure to read your comments without flame etc it's nice to see a real discussion! So well done ;) and yes it's just a discussion and agree with alot of what people are saying.. And yes we don't have any real facts ( it's a shame really as ccp of course know the details but haven't released) anyway it is speculation so time will tell. Personally if something drastic doesn't change to give smaller corps/alliances a REAL chance, not a slim one then I will after 5 years be closing my accounts...Sadly but I had enough of how the game as panned out... I remember when we had like 8000 ppl only online at once alliances did not have the same issues, opposition as they do now and to expect all new or young alliances to compete on the same level is crazy especially as major alliances have got such a foothold now. Please don't state bob dying that's was a gamemechanic and rogue director ootherwise noone could takedelve , but anywT that's off topic.. I really hope something changes but like everything ccp do and hype up it ends up being totally a let down .FW is one example. Graphics update another etc


 

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