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Darkdood
Posted - 2009.08.14 17:19:00 - [1]
 

I can hear the screaming now... Waaahaaa Waaahhaaa you suck blah blah.... but I'm still right....:)

#1 - The primary purpose of the Orca is a Mining/Industrial command ship. So to that end I say nerf its cargo bay and give it a MUCH larger ore bay. We have plenty of other ships that can haul crap around.

Might also want to change that 5% cargo space bonus to something more useful. I honestly have no idea what though.

IE - Reduce cargo hold from 30k to 10k. Raise the Ore hold to 250k.

#2 - Give the Orca a 4th high slot. Its role bonus's allow for 3 gang links and huge bonus's to tractor beam yet it can't use all 4 at the same time. Seems a bit silly to me to make a ship that can't do what its built to do.

Etien Aldragoran
Legitimate Corporation
Posted - 2009.08.14 17:31:00 - [2]
 

You've clearly never gotten a quadruple Carrier spawn in 0.0 dropping 100m trit.

fab24
Gallente
Tax Fraud Corporation
Posted - 2009.08.14 17:38:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Darkdood
I can hear the screaming now... Waaahaaa Waaahhaaa you suck blah blah.... but I'm still right....:)

#1 - The primary purpose of the Orca is a Mining/Industrial command ship. So to that end I say nerf its cargo bay and give it a MUCH larger ore bay. We have plenty of other ships that can haul crap around.

Might also want to change that 5% cargo space bonus to something more useful. I honestly have no idea what though.

IE - Reduce cargo hold from 30k to 10k. Raise the Ore hold to 250k.

#2 - Give the Orca a 4th high slot. Its role bonus's allow for 3 gang links and huge bonus's to tractor beam yet it can't use all 4 at the same time. Seems a bit silly to me to make a ship that can't do what its built to do.


want huge place to store your mining stuff ? buy a rorqual.

Issea
Posted - 2009.08.14 17:47:00 - [4]
 

I would love to have a 4'th highslots, so you can actually have a tractor fittet :=)

Darkdood
Posted - 2009.08.14 18:51:00 - [5]
 

Carrier spawn? No I don't live in 0.0 so I'm not sure what you mean. I would try to argue the merits but I have no information to base the argument on sense you didn't tell me wtf you are talking about.

... After asking some friends I get what your talking about. Rat Harvesters... I've killed a few of those with smaller amounts of minerals. What did you do before Orca's?

Let me put this another way. Dozens of people rat in 0.0 and actually bother to loot the minerals etc etc. Thousands of people mine in all different security space in Orca's.

Although you are correct. The devs should weigh that fact when they try to rebalance.

fab24 - Ummm you obviously have not mined much. While I do admit the changes with this patch to the Rorqual make it a much better ship. I should remind you that it can't go into highsec at all. One of the major points of the Orca was to give people in highsec a Rorqual type ship.


Look its a COMMAND SHIP. For MINING OPERATIONS. Its not an Iteron mark 6. That is what Obelisks are for. The 40k corp hangar alone gives it more cargo capacity than any industrial(T1 rigged ity 5 is 38k).

I'm really trying not to be snippy but fact is I mine ALLOT. Getting ore out of the roid is easy with hulks. The logistics of getting it back to station is a huge hassle. A change like this would go a long way to improving the performance of a ship that was clearly designed to solve these problems.

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.08.14 19:20:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Trimutius III on 14/08/2009 19:20:28
Originally by: Darkdood
Carrier spawn? No I don't live in 0.0 so I'm not sure what you mean. I would try to argue the merits but I have no information to base the argument on sense you didn't tell me wtf you are talking about.


Carriers are NPC indutrials, they drop a lot of minerlas... THe best Carriers can drop 12.5 mill of Tritanium...

fab24
Gallente
Tax Fraud Corporation
Posted - 2009.08.14 19:50:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: fab24 on 14/08/2009 19:54:09
orca is not meant to be as good as rorqual, if you boost orca to have the ore capacity of the rorqual, people will only use orca and rorqual will be useless, that one reason as there are much other.

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.08.14 20:56:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: fab24
Edited by: fab24 on 14/08/2009 19:54:09
orca is not meant to be as good as rorqual, if you boost orca to have the ore capacity of the rorqual, people will only use orca and rorqual will be useless, that one reason as there are much other.

Rorqual has 5% bonus
Rorqual can jump
Rorqual can compress ore

But i agree orca doesn't need that big ore bay...

Darkdood
Posted - 2009.08.14 22:06:00 - [9]
 

Cargo rigged orca is 89k at lvl 4 skill. Plus 40k corp hangar. Plus 50k ore hold.
179k of ore max. You can go higher but this is for the average character.

Cargo rigged Rorqual is 126k. 30k corp hangar. 250k ore hold.
406k max.

Remember though that the Roqual is in lowsec or 0.0 so that is expanders in lows and cargo rigs so you're a big fat target. Practicality dictates that most quals won't be setup that way. So you could lose the 86k extra from the regular cargo area. Which drops you down to 320k.

Just to make sure I get the math right I use the Naglfar (10,250) in EFT and with 2 expanders and 3 cargo rigs it gets 25k cargo space. That is without the 5% ship bonus. Which still gives you 60k+ of regular space. Far beyond any other industrial.

However with that + say a 200k ore hold your total is 25+40+200=265.

Its just an opinion but I believe the Orca should be every bit as good as the Rorqual(space wise at least). The qual costs allot more but you get quite a few things out of it that the orca flat out can't do. As pointed out above.

The problem here is not that the Orca is as good better or worse than a qual. The problem is people want to use the Orca as a Iteron Mark 10 to be the end all solution for hauling and logistics for non ore items. Maybe I'm in the minority but I'd rather see it be a better mining ship and less of a 18 wheeler.

Frankly it would be fine with me if they droped cargo down to 5k, corp hanger down to 10k and just put a 500k+ ore hold on it. Sense it can't compress ore that gives it far less total capacity than a qual.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.08.14 22:19:00 - [10]
 

You want to restrict the use of the Rorqual.

You haven't given any serious reason beside "I want this".

No, thanks, most people don't want this.

Oarta
Posted - 2009.08.14 23:24:00 - [11]
 

Not Supported.

As you stated, the Orca is a Command Ship, not an Industrial Transport. The changes you suggest only, as previously stated, weaken the role of the Rorqual. Leave to Orca as it is and rely on other methods to transport the raw Ore.

Darkdood
Posted - 2009.08.15 03:37:00 - [12]
 

The role of the Rorqual was boosted the moment they gave it a 250k Ore hold. The only way an orca can jump is with a Titan Bridge. So using them in 0.0 isn't very practical. On the other hand in you can't have a Rorqual in highsec at all. Trying to link/compare the two isn't valid. They do two separate jobs. Rather they do the same job in two separate situation. The Orca is for static in system work or highsec. The Rorqual is for remote go over here and get it type work in deep space.

Originally by: Venkul Mul
You want to restrict the use of the Rorqual.

You haven't given any serious reason beside "I want this".

No, thanks, most people don't want this.


I hate to clue you in but no one uses Rorqual anyway.

The serious reason is that as a miner I want more space to hold ore. If I have to give up general space to balance that out that is a trade I'm perfectly willing to make. Some people might not agree with that but that is because they are using this ship for everything under the sun accept what it was meant for... mining.

Bleh its obvious to me you people don't mine... Don't really care what you think just wanted the devs to consider a slight rebalance.

VonCruix
Posted - 2009.08.15 05:57:00 - [13]
 

Is it not only about what "you" want?
You seem pretty selfish.

The Orca is fine as it is. No change need, or wanted by most me thinks.


King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2009.08.15 07:48:00 - [14]
 

The orca is near perfect as is. I see no need to change it as you suggest. A fourth highslot would be ok I suppose but the cargo changes I do not support.

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.08.15 11:03:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Darkdood


Remember though that the Roqual is in lowsec or 0.0 so that is expanders in lows and cargo rigs so you're a big fat target. Practicality dictates that most quals won't be setup that way. So you could lose the 86k extra from the regular cargo area. Which drops you down to 320k.


Rorqual is shield tanking vessel so few Cargo modules will not reduce it tank really hard...

steave435
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.08.15 11:09:00 - [16]
 

Quote:
Look its a COMMAND SHIP. For MINING OPERATIONS.

Nerf its cargo and remove the ore bay then. Command ships are supposed to give bonuses, not haul, it shouldn't be a iteron mk 10 for miners either.

Happy?

ark maphar
Posted - 2009.08.15 12:16:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: steave435
Quote:
Look its a COMMAND SHIP. For MINING OPERATIONS.

Nerf its cargo and remove the ore bay then. Command ships are supposed to give bonuses, not haul, it shouldn't be a iteron mk 10 for miners either.

Happy?



yes this

Dharq Star
Amarr
Fringe Element
Posted - 2009.08.15 14:18:00 - [18]
 

OK i agree that it would be nice to have a 4th high slot but as for the rest of the OPs suggestions i disagree

remember back before there was an Orca, what where people asking for?

1) a industrial ship that was smaller then a freighter but bigger then what they had at the time

2) an mining command ship

so instead of giving us 2 ships that do 1 thing each they gave us 1 that does 2 things well. this is what we asked for and got, get over itRolling Eyes

Zex Maxwell
Caldari
Posted - 2009.08.15 16:35:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Darkdood
#1 - The primary purpose of the Orca is a Mining/Industrial command ship. So to that end I say nerf its cargo bay and give it a MUCH larger ore bay. We have plenty of other ships that can haul crap around.

Do this and it will make macro mining a little too easy.

Originally by: Darkdood
Might also want to change that 5% cargo space bonus to something more useful. I honestly have no idea what though.

No, The orca is the little sister ship of the rorqual. thus it should not have that good of bonuses to mining.

Originally by: Darkdood
IE - Reduce cargo hold from 30k to 10k. Raise the Ore hold to 250k.

250k is a bit much for the little sister. I would have to agree to 150. but with the current cargohold you can fit ~140 ish in it with the corp hanger.

Originally by: Darkdood
#2 - Give the Orca a 4th high slot. Its role bonus's allow for 3 gang links and huge bonus's to tractor beam yet it can't use all 4 at the same time. Seems a bit silly to me to make a ship that can't do what its built to do.

I would have to agree to this tho. some how, this little miss hap fell through the QA department. then again who uses the less cap bonus in empire? I guess this would fall under easy macro mining.

Merkur Avar
Kotodama Corp
Posted - 2009.08.16 09:38:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Merkur Avar on 16/08/2009 09:39:15
Change the cargo of the orca and you hamper people living in wormholes immensely.
We can't use capital ships to transport **** so freighters/carriers don't work (getting a cap ship into wh space is usually a one way trip because of wh mass).
If we lose the orca to haul, we only have t2 industrials/itty5s with rigs which only carry 1/4th of the stuff we need (fuel for example).

DO NOT nerf Orca cargo. Please!

Kleranna
Minmatar
Hitodama Industrial Cooperative Operations
Manifest Destiny.
Posted - 2009.08.16 10:26:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Kleranna on 16/08/2009 10:27:19
I never understood why Rorquals aren't allowed to use gates and enter hi-sec that way. It's not as if they are real combat ships and JF are still larger etc, so the role of the jump freighters isn't threatened. orcas would be the smaller (hi-sec only) version and rorquals the larger, more expensive, all-sec version.

That wouldn't change anything for WH ops but it would avoid the often-cited irritations of ship swapping for getting ore to/from hi-sec.




Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.08.16 10:29:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Kleranna

That wouldn't change anything for WH ops but it would avoid the often-cited irritations of ship swapping for getting ore to/from hi-sec.


To move ore to/from hi-sec u can use Freighter... Just T1 Freighter... They have enough space to carry a lot of ore if needed...

Kleranna
Minmatar
Hitodama Industrial Cooperative Operations
Manifest Destiny.
Posted - 2009.08.16 10:35:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Trimutius III
Originally by: Kleranna

That wouldn't change anything for WH ops but it would avoid the often-cited irritations of ship swapping for getting ore to/from hi-sec.


To move ore to/from hi-sec u can use Freighter... Just T1 Freighter... They have enough space to carry a lot of ore if needed...


I realize that ofc, but my point was that you don't run a mining op from a T1 freighter, so some sort of in-station cargo juggling and an additional ship is necessary. That's one thing people seem to moan about.


Chunky Milk
Viziam
Posted - 2009.08.16 10:54:00 - [24]
 



"I hate to clue you in but no one uses Rorqual anyway."
umm did op really say this? hmm -
Darkdood - the orca isn't just a hauler for mining - its industrial command ship, also made for hauling though - I do understand what your saying however its intended purpose is a hauler too...

Your reasoning behind it is flawed. Personally i want my harby to do 2000dps so i can kill everything, but just because i want it isn't reason enough. And as stated the orca fills the role its made for nicely atm.


Cerui Tarshiel
Minmatar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2009.08.16 11:24:00 - [25]
 

You provide no clear logical argument, backed up by facts, as to why the cargohold is too big, only assertions backed up by I WANT. As it stands excluding the orca you have haulers and transports with a maximium capacity of 43.667m3 (iteron mark V with t2 cargo rigs) and then a large jump to freighters with around 800.000k+m3 (not counting in jump freighters here because they are a 4bil bil investment and jump capable). The orca serves as a nice fill inbetween those in both skills, speed and cost at between 120-145km3 carried (cargo+corp hangar). Besides it provides a nice platform for both wormhole adventurers and those in lowsec to setup shop with.

As to requesting the abilty to fit the 3rd link. As it is, only two of the links are useful, Mining Foreman Link - Harvester Capacitor Efficiency just isn't needed unless you a) don't know how to stagger your mining lasors or b) haven't trained any capacitor skills. You might make an argument that it should perhaps be changed to a more useful bonus but that's a discussion best saved for another thread. I find it likely that having 3 highslots so you have to fit either 2 links+tractor beam or 3 links is an intentional decision by ccp.

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.08.16 15:03:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Cerui Tarshiel
You provide no clear logical argument, backed up by facts, as to why the cargohold is too big, only assertions backed up by I WANT. As it stands excluding the orca you have haulers and transports with a maximium capacity of 43.667m3 (iteron mark V with t2 cargo rigs) and then a large jump to freighters with around 800.000k+m3 (not counting in jump freighters here because they are a 4bil bil investment and jump capable). The orca serves as a nice fill inbetween those in both skills, speed and cost at between 120-145km3 carried (cargo+corp hangar). Besides it provides a nice platform for both wormhole adventurers and those in lowsec to setup shop with.

I see your problem, we come back to problem of minifreighters... They still doesn't exist... But say thanks that CCP at least introduced Orca... Before Orca gap was even bigger... Soon maybe we will have new haulers... But boosting Orca isn't good solving of problem...

Cerui Tarshiel
Minmatar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2009.08.16 20:45:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Cerui Tarshiel on 16/08/2009 20:45:27
Originally by: Trimutius III

I see your problem, we come back to problem of minifreighters... They still doesn't exist... But say thanks that CCP at least introduced Orca... Before Orca gap was even bigger... Soon maybe we will have new haulers... But boosting Orca isn't good solving of problem...


In the quiet words of virgin mary, please come again.

You are making absolutely no sense, especially as you quoted my post. Yes, I know the gap was bigger, no exactly a new player, and no, we don't need a bloody minifreighter, the orca does that job quite well enough. And where in the bloody hell did I ask for an orca boost? And solving what problem?

Trimutius III
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.08.16 20:58:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Cerui Tarshiel


In the quiet words of virgin mary, please come again.

You are making absolutely no sense, especially as you quoted my post. Yes, I know the gap was bigger, no exactly a new player, and no, we don't need a bloody minifreighter, the orca does that job quite well enough. And where in the bloody hell did I ask for an orca boost? And solving what problem?

Maybe i misunderstood u... I thought u were talking that capacity of Orca is too small...

FinancialDragon
Posted - 2009.08.17 08:04:00 - [29]
 

Good thing you posted with your alt Darkdood, your suggestion about nerfing the orca cargohold quite frankly sucks and has very little clear reasoning for it Rolling Eyes

The only thing you mention that makes sense is a possible 4th high slot, I agree with the others and yourself that 250k ore bay would be NICE, but it does not fit the role of the Orca, that's what the Rorq is for.

Grayko
Posted - 2009.08.19 22:52:00 - [30]
 

How about this....

The Rorqual is restricted to LOW / NUL SEC space.

Why not restrict the SEC of the Orca? restrict it to .3 or higher.

This will seperate the two ships. and make the Rorqual more useful as it was intened to be. a LOW SEC mining Command Ship.

If this is done, then you can change the Orca, 1. reduce the Main Cargobay. 2. Increase the Ore hold.

Like you all have said in the past treads, these ships are MINING COMMAND Ships, NOT haulers.

Make the players use them as they were intended..

Just my thoughts.

Very Happy


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