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blankseplocked [hurf] senates in space, aka how not to govern your terrible alliance
 
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The Mittani
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.11 18:29:00 - [1]
 

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/72504

shorter column this week, because if 800 words is good enough for paul krugman and the nyt i don't feel obliged to bash out 1500-2000

itt we discuss types of alliance governance structures, which ones fail, and which ones succeed

Butter Dog
Gallente
The Monocled Elite
Posted - 2009.08.11 18:30:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Butter Dog on 11/08/2009 18:35:47
800 words?

i might read it this time before posting a :fakecomment:

okay, read it: AAA C more likely to fold under pressure than Goonswarm shocker! I'll certainly be holding the front page Razz

Privavarian
Gallente
BENEVOLENC3
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2009.08.11 18:30:00 - [3]
 

There is more????!

Aegis Osiris
Gallente
Peanut Factory
Posted - 2009.08.11 20:13:00 - [4]
 

*shrug* pretty obvious. I've seen similar discussions in eve for years, and all pointed the same way as this article; democracy and internet spaceships mix badly. 'nuff said.

Elno Wildclaw
Gallente
Sinister Merc Coalition
Posted - 2009.08.11 20:45:00 - [5]
 

There's just two things i'd like to point out.

1) there are some hybrid-style leaderships, such as a dictatorship-style leadership with a kind of parliament-style group of corp CEOs that bring issues up with the alliance's king (for lack of a shorter term) and to whom the king defers decisions that he quite frankly doesn't give a **** about. They function relatively well, and they do provide a good solid chain of command in the case of an enemy attack, but i would assume that an issue The Mittani pointed out a few articles ago of people identifying themselves with the corp rather than the alliance can cause problems if the alliance goes through extended hardships like a costly war, power struggles between the corps for the favor of the king, etc.

2) There are other reasons than corp ceos used to absolute power that cause democracies to fall. Oftentimes, even in alliances who have lasted long enough for the CEOs to become used to voting and not always getting their way, power struggles crop up as CEOs gang up on those they don't like, causing a lot of infighting, even when there are enemies at the door, though it really comes to light once those enemies are driven off by stronger allies and the alliance in question is given the chance to focus inward to find new enemies. I'm sure The Mittani's spies have more than enough examples of backstabbing and backroom dealing that went on during these kinds of power struggles.

Lunas Whisper
Minmatar
Chillwater Ltd
Imperial Ascension
Posted - 2009.08.11 21:03:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Elno Wildclaw
There's just two things i'd like to point out.

1) there are some hybrid-style leaderships, such as a dictatorship-style leadership with a kind of parliament-style group of corp CEOs that bring issues up with the alliance's king (for lack of a shorter term) and to whom the king defers decisions that he quite frankly doesn't give a **** about. They function relatively well, and they do provide a good solid chain of command in the case of an enemy attack, but i would assume that an issue The Mittani pointed out a few articles ago of people identifying themselves with the corp rather than the alliance can cause problems if the alliance goes through extended hardships like a costly war, power struggles between the corps for the favor of the king, etc.

2) There are other reasons than corp ceos used to absolute power that cause democracies to fall. Oftentimes, even in alliances who have lasted long enough for the CEOs to become used to voting and not always getting their way, power struggles crop up as CEOs gang up on those they don't like, causing a lot of infighting, even when there are enemies at the door, though it really comes to light once those enemies are driven off by stronger allies and the alliance in question is given the chance to focus inward to find new enemies. I'm sure The Mittani's spies have more than enough examples of backstabbing and backroom dealing that went on during these kinds of power struggles.


This.

Pure democracy is a pain in the arse. However so is a dictatorship. One you never get anything done and in the other the leaders is prone to burn out real quick.

Master Mnemosyne
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.08.11 21:21:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Master Mnemosyne on 11/08/2009 21:21:36
I hope you get paid for this.*


*Because if you don't you're one sad little internet spaceship celebrity.

The Mittani
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.11 21:22:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Master Mnemosyne
I hope you get paid for this.*














*Because if you don't you're one sad little internet spaceship celebrity.


i do, its pretty chill

no way i'd crap out one of these things every week if i didn't get cash moneys for it~~

Master Mnemosyne
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.08.11 21:25:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
Originally by: Master Mnemosyne
I hope you get paid for this.*


*Because if you don't you're one sad little internet spaceship celebrity.


i do, its pretty chill

no way i'd crap out one of these things every week if i didn't get cash moneys for it~~



ah thank goodness. I'd hate to see such obvious talent wasted so horribly.

The Mittani
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.11 21:28:00 - [10]
 

wasting talent for money is the first thing you learn either as a prostitute or a lawyer

Master Mnemosyne
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.08.11 21:40:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
wasting talent for money is the first thing you learn either as a prostitute or a lawyer


So, which one did you start with?

The Mittani
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.11 21:41:00 - [12]
 

there's a difference?

Shinma Apollo
Caldari
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2009.08.11 21:45:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
wasting talent for money is the first thing you learn either as a prostitute or a lawyer


Unsurprisingly mittens is the type of jerk who has never heard of the phrase pro bono

Master Mnemosyne
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.08.11 21:45:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
there's a difference?


Both involve ****ing someones ****, you make a valid point.

Fat Ducker
Amarr
Lucky Hydra Corp
Posted - 2009.08.11 21:49:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
Originally by: Master Mnemosyne
I hope you get paid for this.*


*Because if you don't you're one sad little internet spaceship celebrity.


i do, its pretty chill

no way i'd crap out one of these things every week if i didn't get cash moneys for it~~


Hmm, the less charitable might suspect that in the prospect of you losing your column, your vanity might be willing to reverse the nature of that financial transaction.

I, however, am perfectly willing to accept this statement at face value.

Originally by: The Mittani
wasting talent for money is the first thing you learn either as a prostitute or a lawyer


Alternate title for this thread "Confessions of a Solar Rent-Boy"?

The Mittani
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.11 21:52:00 - [16]
 

~sins of a solar sexpot~


heh



Master Mnemosyne
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.08.11 21:54:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
~sins of a solar sexpot~


heh





I bet there would be quite an audience among the Jade Constantines of this game.

SquadBroken
Amarr
Helljumpers
Posted - 2009.08.11 21:56:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
there's a difference?


Laughing

Mistress Suffering
Amarr
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2009.08.11 22:45:00 - [19]
 

We're an anarco-sydicalist commune. We take it in turns to be a sort of executive officer for the week...


Willington
Gallente
Evoke.
Ev0ke
Posted - 2009.08.11 23:11:00 - [20]
 

Mittani getting really deep and philosophic ITT?Wink
Got your Halberg-Rassey yet?

qwijJibow
Caldari
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2009.08.11 23:14:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Shinma Apollo
Originally by: The Mittani
wasting talent for money is the first thing you learn either as a prostitute or a lawyer


Unsurprisingly mittens is the type of jerk who has never heard of the phrase pro bono



Apparently not... But from what i heard in jita your mom hasLaughingLaughingLaughing

Privavarian
Gallente
BENEVOLENC3
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2009.08.11 23:42:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: qwijJibow
Originally by: Shinma Apollo
Originally by: The Mittani
wasting talent for money is the first thing you learn either as a prostitute or a lawyer


Unsurprisingly mittens is the type of jerk who has never heard of the phrase pro bono



Apparently not... But from what i heard in jita your mom hasLaughingLaughingLaughing




Ahh, a ''your mom'' comeback, let me make one.

atleast his mom diddn't end up in a ditch after being slashed and sexually humilliated by big black brutor men.

(ingame, ofcourse.)

qwijJibow
Caldari
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2009.08.11 23:52:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Privavarian
Originally by: qwijJibow
Originally by: Shinma Apollo
Originally by: The Mittani
wasting talent for money is the first thing you learn either as a prostitute or a lawyer


Unsurprisingly mittens is the type of jerk who has never heard of the phrase pro bono



Apparently not... But from what i heard in jita your mom hasLaughingLaughingLaughing




Ahh, a ''your mom'' comeback, let me make one.

atleast his mom diddn't end up in a ditch after being slashed and sexually humilliated by big black brutor men.

(ingame, ofcourse.)


Hey that big brutor is my dadEmbarassed

Privavarian
Gallente
BENEVOLENC3
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2009.08.11 23:56:00 - [24]
 

Nice, you have multiple fathers.

Kybernis
Caldari
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2009.08.12 01:01:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
there's a difference?


different hours of business.


Apostrophe Man
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.08.12 02:00:00 - [26]
 

The Dictator style works well, as long as it's focused around one strong *corp*. The one you have to watch for is when it's focused around a single *person*. Cult-of-personality dictatorships don't seem to work. See: Fallen Souls under Mitch or Atlas under Bobby.

Gautan Virdamot
Gallente
Nebula Rasa Vanguard
Nebula Rasa
Posted - 2009.08.12 03:46:00 - [27]
 

The Mittani works under the delusion that everyone plays EVE to be in the biggest persistent blob around.

I'd much rather join an alliance where I had a prayer at a say sometime in the future than becoming someones pawn. Which is dare I say why not that many people are in these alliances.

Everyone knows what's easiest and has the most chance of success, I don't think you found something new here. I seriously doubt it will affect what alliances people join in the future either.

What I would like to see is you analyzing the player, how and if the contending 0.0 alliances can and would want to approach them for recruitment and how they're funneled into 0.0.

As is now the way in as I see it is a corporation of gankers forming in lowsec, killing all, showcasing impressive k/d ratio to alliance and are made trial members.

Elno Wildclaw
Gallente
Sinister Merc Coalition
Posted - 2009.08.12 06:39:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Gautan Virdamot
I'd much rather join an alliance where I had a prayer at a say sometime in the future than becoming someones pawn. Which is dare I say why not that many people are in these alliances.


See, Gautan, another reason that democracies don't work, is because they give people a say that don't really deserve a say. Not that they're horrible at the game, though that is often the case, but more because it gives a voice to people that are just freaking idiots. This happens in real life too, but countries tend to not failcascade as quickly as Eve alliances do.

Privavarian
Gallente
BENEVOLENC3
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2009.08.12 06:53:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Gautan Virdamot
The Mittani works under the delusion that everyone plays EVE to be in the biggest persistent blob around.

I'd much rather join an alliance where I had a prayer at a say sometime in the future than becoming someones pawn. Which is dare I say why not that many people are in these alliances.

Everyone knows what's easiest and has the most chance of success, I don't think you found something new here. I seriously doubt it will affect what alliances people join in the future either.

What I would like to see is you analyzing the player, how and if the contending 0.0 alliances can and would want to approach them for recruitment and how they're funneled into 0.0.

As is now the way in as I see it is a corporation of gankers forming in lowsec, killing all, showcasing impressive k/d ratio to alliance and are made trial members.


Forget it, aint gonna happen. and if it does, it will fail.
When an alliance gets bigger than 10 people you really don't want democracy.


No really, you don't.

Proxay
Gallente
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2009.08.12 08:21:00 - [30]
 

+1 for the Dictatorship with input from others.


If it's quiet, and we're in no rush, I defer judgments to others, allowing people to have an input in what's going on. As soon as it's war-time, or we need something done quickly, I take over and make a whole bunch of **** happen.

I guess it's still under dictatorship category.


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