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blankseplocked Complaints about character specialization (ie. Market skills)
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Body Count Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2004.10.06 08:30:00 - [1]

Wading through half of the posts on this board is an exercise in patience. If it's not some chump spouting his opinion as fact... then it's the signature banners that look more like a Gap advertisement than something that relates to this game.

After posting this in a market discussion thread I figured I would post it in General. I went back and read many of the responses regarding the new market changes... and then decided to dig up some threads on character specialization. It's interesting to see what most people have to say... and strangely enough, half the time, most people discuss the topic of character specialization as if they have no other choice but to take/continue the route which they have chosen... and then become indignant when offered more options. Granted, I can understand some arguments... and I am not saying that some valid points haven't been made... but seeing people get angry at having more gameplay options? /boggle

For example, with regards to the market changes. It all boils down to opinion. I can feel for new players who are scrambling to reach the carrot... and I can understand the perspective of those who will miss the ability to fit a powerful player archetype (marketeer/broker) without any skills whatsoever.

Regardless, in my opinion these changes are nothing but fantastic. Players who truly want to play and be renown as master marketeers can not only do so... but will be identified by other players as such... since up till the day these changes are implemented anyone and their grandmother could log in and have the ability to do so.

I empathize with those who feel the initial pain of undertaking the path of specialization. However, in the long run, you will actually be an individual with skills that are going to be matched by far fewer people... not to mention that being specialized in these skills (I am referring only to the new market skills) is not going to turn around and bite you in the ass because the market is always going to be there... and will change for everyone regardless of their particular level of specialization.

This game, whether you know it or not, is a PVP game. Whether you are out PKing every night, trying to beat someone's price on Tritanium, or trying to earn more research points faster than other folks for the latest Tech II BPO... you are working against others. That is one of the great beauties of this game that I think, very unfortunately, most people never sense. This game actually has more than just a slight modicum of player interaction. Players truly do effect the game around them... and the game that others are playing as well. These new market skills bring that aspect of EVE to a higher level of realization.

You might not like it... but I think it's f**king fascinating.

Posted - 2004.10.06 08:47:00 - [2]

*clap* *clap* *clap*

Nice post, on point and put more eloquently than I could Very Happy

PPN United
Posted - 2004.10.06 13:56:00 - [3]

i agree 100%

very good post Very Happy

Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2004.10.06 14:01:00 - [4]

Excellent post. My only regret is that it will eventually be lost amidst the forum fluff in a matter of days.

Toran Mehtar
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2004.10.06 14:04:00 - [5]

This thread pretty much sums up how I feel, and somehow avoid to be a whining about whiners whining thread.

I wanted to be a trader, which reflects in the fact that charisma is my highest base attribute. Yet I have done virtually no trading, purely due to fact that I wanted there to be something more to it than setting up hundreds of buy orders around repro value.

Looking forward to it now, to say the least.

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2004.10.06 14:13:00 - [6]

I agree 100% with the original post.

Enough people have complained over the last eighteen months that there are not enough Charisma skills in the game, and that the Trade skill was not implemented.

Now at last, we are going to get a skill based market system, and the people with high Charisma at last get something that they can train easily.

I have a feeling that in a month's time, people with decent market skills are gonig to be in high demand, and about time too.

Deadly Addiction
Un-Natural Selection
Posted - 2004.10.06 14:21:00 - [7]

The requirements for T2 guns are crazy.... Think of what they will do for T3-5! :P

Vindicate and Deliverance
Posted - 2004.10.06 14:31:00 - [8]

Edited by: Harisdrop on 06/10/2004 14:35:27
Edited by: Harisdrop on 06/10/2004 14:34:31
With Shiva traders will see what your CHA attributes are for. When your first go into the market you will become numb. With no trade skills a player can only have 5 total orders. Thats buy and sell put together. THose trade skills will make a trader profession.Market screen

IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.10.06 15:14:00 - [9]

Good post, and I agree. the more skills available, the better for the game. Personally, I'm working on the new learning skills at the moment. I'm glad they're finally in. :D

Drunken Wookies
Posted - 2004.10.06 15:43:00 - [10]

Nice post and very very true.
Think this is gonna have to be kept to the top of the board for as long as possible.

Alpha Empire
Posted - 2004.10.06 16:20:00 - [11]

Edited by: Minsc on 06/10/2004 16:22:36
yeah...bump and a comment.

After logging in to the shiva test server last night, I logged back on to TQ and the first thing I did was go and buy the trade, marketing and procurement skills, I am an all-rounder character and I have no plans to train the others, just get those 3 up to a level where I can have a decent amount of orders on the market in a fairly large radius from where I am at the time, beyond that I cannot afford the time to train the skills futher as I have other, more important skills to train.

My character has always been and will always be a jack of all trades type character, and I fully accept that those who choose to specialize will be able to do things I cannot, which is fine by me.

Body Count Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2004.10.07 10:08:00 - [12]

It's a nice change to see at least a small bit of agreement on the upcoming changes. I was expecting more from 'the other side of the fence' (not to mention adolescent AOLSpeak angst).

The comments regarding Charisma based skills are right on the mark. People have consistantly asked for more Charisma oriented character development... and now that CCP finally follows through people complain about having more stuff to train. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

As drunkenmaster said, 'the more skills available, the better for the game'. I couldn't agree more. Diversity in gaming keeps interests high, attracts new players (which further broadens the player base - always a good thing), and makes for a far more enjoyable and multi-faceted experience.

Thanks for the responses so far. I'd like to hear more opinions on how other players feel about these upcoming changes.

D'Ahrk Prophesy
Posted - 2004.10.07 11:46:00 - [13]

Well personally, I don't see the changes as being too terribly bad (not as bad as some folks seem to think, anyway), but I don't really see them as a good thing, either. For one thing, I have to strongly disagree with your statement that we now have "more options." While some of the new functions (market from space, etc) are really great and should require training new skills, this is a NERF first and foremost. You don't take away a longstanding ability from people, then give them the option to sink their time into being able to do it again and call it "more options" or "updated content." Nerfing in the name of giving back what you have nerfed under the title of "more content" is ridiculous, and I personally find it quite offensive. It insults everyone's intelligence and plays us all for suckers. I'm having flashbacks of Sony Online here.

I also don't understand the "specialization" argument. Yes, specialization in Eve is a good thing, but for crying out loud, the market (at least in my opinion) is what makes Eve the game it is, and it's usage is necessary to many specializations already. For example: If one specializes as a builder one needs to be able to sell what's built (that's sorta the point, no?). If one specializes as a miner, one needs to be able to sell what they mine. If one specializes in refining, one needs to be able to buy and sell ore/minerals. So how is the market a "specialization" thing? Seems to me like a necessary function for other TRUE specializations.

Besides, it hampers a nice casual play option. For one thing, playing the market was always a nice option for a change of pace on those days when fighting on Thrax here or mining on my other character didnt appeal to me and I felt like doing something different. Variety is the spice of life.

On a personal note (don't worry, there's a point to it), I often visit a friend for several days at a time, and while there I have to play Eve on a laptop. The performance is rather poor on that machine, so while I'm there I spend my in-game time playing the market, moving minerals, etc, as that's about all I can reliably do on that machine. This doesn't really KILL that, per se, but it requires me to invest more time in being able to continue doing it. The end result, then, is that I'll simply not bother logging into Eve when visiting my friend while I wait to regain the ability to do what I used to be able to do all along, because thats about all I could do in that situation. I can't believe such things weren't considered by CCP, as I'm sure I'm not the only person that engages (engaged) in this particular form of "limited playing" from time to time.

I guess in short I've never considered playing the market to be a "profession" to be specialized in the same way mining, building, etc are. I was actually attracted to this game by the great reviews it got on an anarcho-capitalist message board (there's lots of us here Wink ) that I frequent, and the main selling point (that brought in a LOT of players from that community) was the awesome market system. I think it's a real shame to see it go. I'm sure there would have been better ways to deal with bogus market orders other than nerfing our present market and then offering us the same abilities back for a price.

Like I said, it's not THAT bad and I'm sure I'll digest this Everquest-style timesink and eventually get back to where I can do what I've been able to do all along prior to the NERF, but the general principle of it all leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. I honestly feel like CCP is playing us for suckers with the whole "take it away, then give it back for a price in a few weeks/months" thing. It's the principle of it that bothers me, particularly when the only supporting argument I've seen for it ("specialization") is illogical and thus invalid IMHO.

Just my opinion.

Rift Scorn
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.10.07 13:04:00 - [14]

Both good initial arguement, and a good response from Thrax. Both well thought out and both valid.

I agree that new specialisation skills are indeed a good thing, but mainly as a PvPer (as noted by Tovar, the entire game is PvP, but i refer to the combat elements of the game) i have been sinking incredible amounts of training time (as a raven pilot first and foremost)into training almost all missle types up to LVL5 in eager anticipation for Tech II missiles, and my corp amte Lavondyss has been training gunnery like a mad-man, and is sooooo close to being able ot use LRG energy Tech II beam and Puklse weps. My point? The amount of time you put into having to learn these necessary specialisation skills makes it all the more sweet when you can use them, adding both anticipation for release - as well as the knowledge that you are one of the few that actually Can!! Go Specialisation!

On the other hand, Thrax's point about nerfing an already implemented feature, and making people invest time into training a skill to re-gain it, and labelling as 'A New Feature', is somewhat un-thought out, and definatley miss markted!

This is the best thread i seen in ages - so i thought i'd give it the bump it deserved, and add my 2 ISK worth Razz

IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.10.07 13:38:00 - [15]

Unless you are in the 100+ simultaneous orders bracket, this change will have minimal effect on you. A level 1 skill can be taken to lvl 4 in just over a day, and to level 5 in under a week. I just can't understand why it's that big a deal for the majority of eve players.

it may thin out the herd for the huge-order brigade, but if they are that devoted to it, they will put in the training time, and will be back at the 120+ order level in no time. Skill training is the only thing these people are really complaining about. And that's just weak.

As long as the bellend attempting to buy consumer electronics in my home region for 20isk shuts the crap up, it's a good thing. It will also have the side effect of reducing market server-load, which will be a necessity when they introduce in-space market browsing.

So... The downside is minimal, and short-lived, and the upsides are long-term, and positive.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2004.10.07 13:59:00 - [16]

Edited by: Maya Rkell on 07/10/2004 14:02:02
I agree 0%

The best market traders are ALLREADY known as that. Only a minority of players have the patience and dedication to mke it big as a collator of junk items, or a major seller of T1 items.

They will NOT be able to function properly in a post-Shiva environment, without using a large number of accounts (and even then trading time is a major bar), which greatly increases the workload they'll have to put in.

SO, there will be less T1 on the market (more expense, more running arround - outfitting ships in many parts of Empire is ALLREADY annoying enough!) and a lot of the basic junk will be scrapped rather than melted - mineral prices will increase.

For the more casual traders, Shiva is nothing short of a disaster. To have say 100 sell orders of fairly small quantities of loot will require extensive training, which a large majority won't do, again with large knock-on effects on the market.

The market also makes Eve FEEL massive. Without the ability for every character to play the market, it will alter the feel of the game significaltly, creeating a wasteland among the stars rather than the feeling of an interlocked market which we have today, where every chaacter can and does particpate.

The effects will be highly negative and effectively permermant.

Posted - 2004.10.07 14:10:00 - [17]

SO, there will be less T1 on the market (more expense, more running arround - outfitting ships in many parts of Empire is ALLREADY annoying enough!)

So, you mean that the tech 1 market will no longer be flooded to oblivion? The prices will be able to rise to the point of some semblance of profit margin? It may actually be WORTH something to sell tech I again?

This is bad how?

Toran Mehtar
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2004.10.07 15:29:00 - [18]

I can understand why some people see this as a nerf on the individual level - you now have to train skills to do something you already can do. There is, however, a larger picture.

As the poster above me pointed out, a vast amount of the market is all but worthless from a trade point of view as many items are being sold by hundreds of different people, most of whom are quite happy to undercut down to repro value just to clear out their junk.

Limiting the number of orders a casual trader can place, as well as imposing stern taxes that again hurt the casual trader more, creates a more stable market that enables those who do train the skills to profit more than ever before.

Imagine this situation: Somebody who has trained his skills places a large number of buy orders (hopefully above repro cost) for various items. As most players are now unable to place multiple sell orders, they take advantage of these buy orders to sell their loot. Those people with the buy orders then place these goods back on the market at an increased price. Because they have specialised and trained the skills that reduce market taxes, they can make a decent profit as there aren't hundreds of similar sell orders undercutting them.

So yes, you now need to train skills to do what you already could. Yet if you take the time, you'll find it pays off a lot more.

* Some people may have noticed that this will raise item prices. Personally I don't see this as a bad thing.

Posted - 2004.10.07 23:01:00 - [19]

O_o, been a while since I saw a nice post first of all.
Second I like the market skills, my only worry is that there will be a sudden freezing of market for a month or so after Shiva starts, even though they released the skills already I think a lot of people are gonna wait til Shiva comes out/dont really think how much itll change what they can do and then have to train up. I know that there are gonna be a lot of people who train the skills, but for every one that does, many others wont, and I wouldnt be suprised if a lot of the scammers still put up their orders, as was stated above, itll only take about a week to train up to a nice level, and obviously the scammers have been making money with this, otherwise they wouldnt do it. If you look around on sigs, I've seen a few people who have gotten a ton of money from selling something very overpriced, while it sucks for whoever bought it, hopefully by accident (I hope no one is ever that stupid/desperate,) that just encourages them to do it again, getting 180 mil for a warp core stabilizer(the one I remember right now) can be a nice incentive.
*crosses fingers and hopes for the best*
And now I'm done, if nothing else at least I bumped this worthy thread back up to where it belongsugh


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