open All Channels
seplocked Assembly Hall
blankseplocked [Proposal] (long) rebalance 0.0 and lowsec ratting
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6

Author Topic

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.05 20:16:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Gramtar
1) Lowsec - increase max BS spawn to triple 1.1M bounties. Essentially make all of lowsec roughly equivalent to what you can get in an -0.4 system today, including any related increase in faction and hauler spawns.

2) All of 0.0 - eliminate all spawns that don't have a battleship. Pruning cruiser spawns out of even perfect truesec systems takes hours and it's completely ridiculous.

3) "poor" truesec 0.0 (roughly 0.0 to -0.3) - Increase max value BS spawn to triple 1.4M.

4) "fair" truesec 0.0 (roughly -0.4 to -0.6) - Increase max value BS spawn to triple 1.85. Permit officer spawns. Basically the same as existing "perfect" truesec. Decrease max respawn time of a cleared spawn to 20 minutes (I believe it is currently 30 min or higher).

5) "good" truesec 0.0 (roughly -0.7 to -1.0) - As above and eliminate spawns below 950K. Significantly increase (triple or quadruple) the rate of hauler and faction spawns. Decrease max respawn time from a cleared spawn to 15 minutes.

I suggest increasing the chance of Officer spawns, as well. Since I've seen exactly one Officer in the 3 years I've ratted, it's hard for me to say by how much. I would need information that isn't currently available, specifically how they currently spawn, whether or not it's true they are more common just after downtime (something which should be obviously be changed if accurate), how long they stay up, whether particular officers favor one region over another, what % that spawn are killed, etc.

The only part I disagree with is increasing the chances of Faction and Officer spawns. The main effect of that would be to crash the market for faction items and reduce the reward for finding such a spawn, which does nothing to make 0.0 ratting more attractive as it puts us right back where we started.

Instead, make the spawns bigger. There's a current cap of up to 6 rats per spawn with up to half of those being battleships (although very occasionally the rats are bugged and put two spawns in the same belt) but there's really no obvious reason why for the higher-end truesec this couldn't be increased to 8 or 10 or even more and/or with the 'only half battleships' limit removed. Warping into a belt and being confronted by 10 Angel Seraphim or Blood Popes would not only make 0.0 ratting more lucrative, it would liven up the experience significantly.

Kesslar Znel
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.05 20:26:00 - [62]
 

I don't like the spatial vortex generator idea, though I'm not able at the moment to articulate exactly why I feel that way. The other measures I would support, along with a measure to have the client display truesec without needing to consult a third party application. If nothing else it would expose the more broken regions (in both directions) and increase the likelihood that they get fixed/rebalanced.

(Yes I am aware that this means Delve, and yes I'm aware that this means less money for me.)

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.08.05 20:34:00 - [63]
 

CCP should conduct a more in-depth study of profit margins for level 4 missions in high sec and 0.0 ratting. They should examine at least 1000 hours spent doing both activities and see how the revenues compare. Then they should do same comparison of the losses, to calculate net profit.

Theoretically, 0.0 hunting should be more profitable than high sec mission running. If the results of study show that to be true, then we know with some certainty that no major changes needed to be done. But if it is proven that 0.0 hunting is less than or equal to high sec, then some kind of action is definitely needed.

As it is now, without hard numbers, we have to rely on stories of other people. And while we could calculate approximate income levels for different activities, the reality often deviates from theory. Only CCP can get the hard data.

And as concerned player, your best option is not to push brand new ideas, but to push CCP to get that hard data and share with community, so educated suggestions can be made for game balance.

Kayl Breinhar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.05 20:45:00 - [64]
 

Do this.

Eins Auge
Posted - 2009.08.05 21:02:00 - [65]
 

I support this.

Maasus Maxx
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.08.05 21:08:00 - [66]
 

Awesome idea!

Dwork Grom
Posted - 2009.08.05 21:14:00 - [67]
 

You have my support.

Senhu Kudoma
Posted - 2009.08.05 21:24:00 - [68]
 

I forgot to give the little thumbs up.

Dexter Filmore
Posted - 2009.08.05 21:51:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: Dexter Filmore on 05/08/2009 21:52:22
I'd disagree that highsec mission running is the most profitable PvE activity in the game.

Wormhole space is definitely where it's at, folks, and that's everywhere.

The way I see it, highsec is space for solo players, lowsec is a bit of a mix and 0.0 is where the alliances play. Solo activities should not be even comparatively profitable out in 0.0 because that's not what you're there for in the first place.

If you have the player infrastructure set up, you should be running exploration sites and Class 3+ Wormholes for your isk. It's more fun, a better, less-boring way to spend time and makes you loads of cash.

You make good points and have good solutions, but there is absolutely no reason you should not be running wormholes. Any Class 3 wh can be cleared with 3 Remote Rep BS and a salvager/hacker/analyzer. I've been on wormhole ops that have brought in over 3.5billion isk split 10 ways and for only a few hours work.

Gramtar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.08.05 22:17:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Scatim Helicon

The only part I disagree with is increasing the chances of Faction and Officer spawns. The main effect of that would be to crash the market for faction items and reduce the reward for finding such a spawn, which does nothing to make 0.0 ratting more attractive as it puts us right back where we started.


I suggested it as a way to still make "good" or "great" truesec still matter. In any case, understand that there already is no limit on faction items in this game. You can receive a limitless number of missions in empire (albeit only one at a time per agent), and nothing prevents individuals from "crashing the market" by creating faction items through the LP stores. There isn't even a limit on how many items you can buy within a given time period. The only limits in place are requiring appropriate faction tags easily obtained by looting them in the missions generating the LP to begin with.

As I noted when I mentioned Officers in my original post, there is too much information I don't have to ensure I'm making a sound suggestion. There's also the human behavior to consider.

One poster mentioned above that while they agreed with my analysis, they didn't agree with my solution as it amounted to adding more isk to the game. That isn't necessarily true. While a macro ratter is going to be on 23/7, many players who rat in 0.0 do so to achieve a specific goal - often to fund pvp activities or their dream of flying a capital ship, developing a production business, you name it. If it takes those people 6 hours to 100M isk, and the resultant changes mean they can now earn that in 3 hours, are all or even many of them going to continue to rat the same amount of time? Probably not.

Doubling or tripling spawn rates doesn't mean double or triple will be harvested. It only means that is the new potential maximum.

Quote:
Instead, make the spawns bigger. There's a current cap of up to 6 rats per spawn with up to half of those being battleships (although very occasionally the rats are bugged and put two spawns in the same belt) but there's really no obvious reason why for the higher-end truesec this couldn't be increased to 8 or 10 or even more and/or with the 'only half battleships' limit removed. Warping into a belt and being confronted by 10 Angel Seraphim or Blood Popes would not only make 0.0 ratting more lucrative, it would liven up the experience significantly.


If this, what I propose, or another solution is adopted to improve casual isk generation activities in lowsec or 0.0, I'll consider my proposal a success. However, I hope CCP takes care to avoid simply re-vamping exploration.

The main point of my proposal is to give a solo pilot a means to earn just as much or more in a casual 0.0 activity as he or she can earn in high sec doing a level 4 mission. The moment you have to gang up with someone, spend 30 minutes or more finding a suitable location (whether pruning belt spawns or scanning and probing for cosmic anomalies), you're at a big disadvantage to that NPC corp member who never ventures 3-4 jumps beyond a mission hub.

Insurance Risk
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.08.05 22:39:00 - [71]
 

I've spent billions of isk on 0.0 warfare over the years, and I haven't ratted seriously since '07. All my 0.0 activities are financed by my risk-free highsec moneymaking, I've invested billions of isk and countless hours into alliance level pvp for no personal gain. I've tried every nullsec moneymaking scheme, ratting, mining, faction hunting, exploration, import/export, production, and even moon mining, nothing compares to the isk:effort ratio of empire space. I'd love to be able to log in, shoot stuff for an hour and make some money without spending hours pruning cruiser spawns in -1.0 trusec.

Cat Molina
Minmatar
Intransigent
Posted - 2009.08.05 23:37:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Kachiko Sama
Hey look, a cogent and well argued idea based on the simple premise that greater risk should bring greater reward. Let's do that.


Hmmm... sounds great! And, since I fly solo in Amamake area, and suffer far greater risk than you do with your blobs and intel channels, then by your argument I should be making about... what? Ten-times your ISK?

Right? Wink

Pathetic little 0.0 players... fighting so hard to extend your E-peen and yet always trying to make life easier for yourselves. Rolling Eyes

Zastrow J
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.08.05 23:50:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Dexter Filmore
Edited by: Dexter Filmore on 05/08/2009 21:52:22
I'd disagree that highsec mission running is the most profitable PvE activity in the game.

Wormhole space is definitely where it's at, folks, and that's everywhere.

The way I see it, highsec is space for solo players, lowsec is a bit of a mix and 0.0 is where the alliances play. Solo activities should not be even comparatively profitable out in 0.0 because that's not what you're there for in the first place.

If you have the player infrastructure set up, you should be running exploration sites and Class 3+ Wormholes for your isk. It's more fun, a better, less-boring way to spend time and makes you loads of cash.

You make good points and have good solutions, but there is absolutely no reason you should not be running wormholes. Any Class 3 wh can be cleared with 3 Remote Rep BS and a salvager/hacker/analyzer. I've been on wormhole ops that have brought in over 3.5billion isk split 10 ways and for only a few hours work.


Wormholes may be great but it's a seperate point from the issue of isk generation on the individual level in 0.0 systems. Life in 0.0 is hard. There's risk. There's work. There is uncertainty. There is more work. Carving out a life as an individual can be miserable in 0.0. For all the work and risk there should be a reward.

Current mechanics only incentivize 0.0 for huge alliances who can defend their moon mining towers on valuable moons with a big ass dread fleet. Other than a hope that the wealth will trickle down, there really isn't much reason for a grunt to live in 0.0. He's arguably better off running missions in highsec and only going out to 0.0 when his alliance has to siege or defend some towers. This really is a bad policy and isn't leading to anyone having more fun in space.

space ganelon
Posted - 2009.08.05 23:54:00 - [74]
 

Not sure about the specific mechanisms proposed for making low/null-sec more profitable, but I certainlly have been annoyed lately by how much more ISK I can making doing hisec L4s than nullseccing.

"boredom pays" is not a great game mechanic.

Supported.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.08.05 23:59:00 - [75]
 

I'm often impressed by the lack of interest people show about finding out actual facts of the matter. Even CCP often just don't care enough to bother data mining. Decisions are mostly made on basis of personal preference.

For example, if we just looked at hard facts, nano nerf probably wouldn't happen the way it did

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.06 00:03:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Cat Molina
Originally by: Kachiko Sama
Hey look, a cogent and well argued idea based on the simple premise that greater risk should bring greater reward. Let's do that.


Hmmm... sounds great! And, since I fly solo in Amamake area, and suffer far greater risk than you do with your blobs and intel channels, then by your argument I should be making about... what? Ten-times your ISK?

Right? Wink

Pathetic little 0.0 players... fighting so hard to extend your E-peen and yet always trying to make life easier for yourselves. Rolling Eyes

The OP included suggestions that would improve the value of lowsec, and if you dont think they go far enough you should feel free to make suggestions on improving it further. However, its not really our fault that you don't have the intel channels and support that the better organised EVE players manage to make use of.

Cat Molina
Minmatar
Intransigent
Posted - 2009.08.06 00:04:00 - [77]
 

The weak will always cry that their game should be made easier. They avoid challenge like a spoiled child avoids chores.

But an easier path breeds weakness, whether in-game or not. And I like seeing you weaken yourselves. It's rare that someone knows their place in this, or any other, world.

Supported. The current 0.0 game is just too hard for you poor souls. Twisted Evil

internaut
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.08.06 00:31:00 - [78]
 

0.0 needs something to balance the endless grind to actually hold space.

DrNeato
Posted - 2009.08.06 00:53:00 - [79]
 

I like this, and would love to see this happen.

Mrs Trzzbk
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.06 01:04:00 - [80]
 

Do it.

Grouchy Smurf
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.08.06 01:06:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Kesslar Znel
I don't like the spatial vortex generator idea, though I'm not able at the moment to articulate exactly why I feel that way. The other measures I would support, along with a measure to have the client display truesec without needing to consult a third party application. If nothing else it would expose the more broken regions (in both directions) and increase the likelihood that they get fixed/rebalanced.


This.

Drago Palermus
Gallente
Tulsa Tube Bending
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.08.06 01:37:00 - [82]
 

I like the crux of Gramtar's argument and will re-post what I posted elsewhere:


Quote:
I don't really like the idea of a POS module that somehow lowers the truesec of a system. That doesn't make sense from an RP perspective and I was under the impression that most larger changes needed some sort of RP explanation to fit into the Eve universe. (But certainly correct me if I'm wrong.)

But fusing the POS module idea to [an idea of a system-within-a-system]...perhaps there could be a POS module (requiring Sov 2) that boosted the strength of probes & ship scanners in-system to the point where they picked up exploration sites that would not otherwise be able to be found. Things that perhaps would be near the periphery of the solar system and would require powerful electronics & radar to find. (Think of all the planetoids & Kuiper Belt Objects we've finally stumbled across in the past 20 years.) Your ship-based sensors would then interface with these POS-based sensors.

Because these sites would be so well-hidden they would be the perfect location for higher-bounty rats to hide. (However I would NOT be in favor of making them so difficult that a mid-skill BS couldn't handle them solo. Rather, the easiest of them would be similar to the triple-BS spawns we currently find, and there would be few or no two-cruisers-and-two-frigates spawns.)

I guess my idea isn't really a new idea but rather a refinement of the existing ones people are floating that executes it in a more logical manner. (Or at least more logical to me.)

Kuzim Blaky'all
Minmatar
Recycling and Recovery

Posted - 2009.08.06 01:40:00 - [83]
 

dawg what means a dawg gets more mad ices means a dawg be down dig, i be down if a dawg bust more an maybe leave more

also dawgs vote kuzim presdent of eve in 20010

Tenshiin
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.08.06 02:03:00 - [84]
 

Good proposal.

WarmWaffles
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.08.06 02:16:00 - [85]
 

I approve of this. Cruiser spawns in 0.0 is pointless

Roeun Deiaj
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.08.06 02:26:00 - [86]
 

I support this.

Ess Erbe
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.08.06 04:45:00 - [87]
 

As long as faction cruiser spawns still spawn with battleship escorts.

Improving ratting to incentivize people to leave highsec and populate lowsec and 0.0 and a way to improve space for ratting, which this proposal has, is long overdue.

Valanan
Caldari
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.08.06 05:05:00 - [88]
 


Dexter Filmore
Posted - 2009.08.06 05:13:00 - [89]
 

Edited by: Dexter Filmore on 06/08/2009 05:20:15
Originally by: Zastrow J
Originally by: Dexter Filmore
Edited by: Dexter Filmore on 05/08/2009 21:52:22
I'd disagree that highsec mission running is the most profitable PvE activity in the game.

Wormhole space is definitely where it's at, folks, and that's everywhere.

The way I see it, highsec is space for solo players, lowsec is a bit of a mix and 0.0 is where the alliances play. Solo activities should not be even comparatively profitable out in 0.0 because that's not what you're there for in the first place.

If you have the player infrastructure set up, you should be running exploration sites and Class 3+ Wormholes for your isk. It's more fun, a better, less-boring way to spend time and makes you loads of cash.

You make good points and have good solutions, but there is absolutely no reason you should not be running wormholes. Any Class 3 wh can be cleared with 3 Remote Rep BS and a salvager/hacker/analyzer. I've been on wormhole ops that have brought in over 3.5billion isk split 10 ways and for only a few hours work.


Wormholes may be great but it's a seperate point from the issue of isk generation on the individual level in 0.0 systems. Life in 0.0 is hard. There's risk. There's work. There is uncertainty. There is more work. Carving out a life as an individual can be miserable in 0.0. For all the work and risk there should be a reward.

Current mechanics only incentivize 0.0 for huge alliances who can defend their moon mining towers on valuable moons with a big ass dread fleet. Other than a hope that the wealth will trickle down, there really isn't much reason for a grunt to live in 0.0. He's arguably better off running missions in highsec and only going out to 0.0 when his alliance has to siege or defend some towers. This really is a bad policy and isn't leading to anyone having more fun in space.


You have a good point and I will certainly agree having lived it myself that there is no reward to trying to be self-sufficient in 0.0. While I do certainly think there should be a way to make money in 0.0, I feel very strongly about EVE being a team game. The Level 4 missioning game is very solidly a solo-PvE carebear thing to do in EVE. There is probably a large section of the player base who this is their main focus in EVE and a significant source of money for CCP. To a player who plays the team game, that kind of stuff is like mining. It's excruciating and quite boring.

Most effective pilots I know have 2 accounts at least, a lot of them 3. Anybody can run 3 accounts doing RRBS and clear a Class 3 wormhole in an evening's work and pull in prolly half a bil. If you're in Marauders you can dual-box it no problem and there seems to be some potential there for solo (though it's bloody difficult). Even a Class 1 or 2 will net you 100-200 million isk no problem (though they're more in highsec). Basically CCP has already solved this money-making problem by giving you the potential to make GREAT money from anywhere in space!

I guess what I'm really trying to say here is that there are other ways to make money in EVE (the least traveled path, really) and just focusing on buffing one specific isk generating activity isn't going to help anyone because you're just going to push more of those solo pilots out of high/low sec out to fight over an already limited resource. It's a tricky thing to balance because different players have different styles of play and CCP has to cater to all of them. I just think if you're in a corp or alliance, you have to figure out how to make your money TOGETHER...otherwise why are you even out there in the first place?

I'm really challenging the whole idea of "grunt" players that just play as cannonfodder to make a few people lots of money. Playing with the right group of people has as much to do with your ability to make ISK as what rats are spawning in system...realistically much much more.

Kytanos Termek
Caldari
Perkone

Posted - 2009.08.06 05:29:00 - [90]
 

Supported


Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only