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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.19 00:57:00 - [1111]
 

Edited by: AstroPhobic on 19/09/2009 01:13:47
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
however you need better worked out solutions than just +50% damage -50% ROF to artilleries (an actual damage reduction by +/-20%)


An actual damage reduction of 0. If you were around a few days ago, you would see I already addressed this. It's +50% damage, +50% duration, which keeps current DPS.

Quote:
and more thoughtful suggestions than +35% bonus to all ac fall off, without really understanding the type of collateral damage it could cause to ships around it. However, there's been a process, there's been a lot of research, comparison and feedback - the solutions are focused (instead of altering every single projectile turret in the game regardless of well how the ships of all classes worked before) and it seems to be balanced.


"More thoughtful"? What, because some of us haven't been thinking about this for years? Excuse you. Who do you think you are?

Quote:
Anyway, I'll leave you guys to continue whatever you where doing, page me if any of you guys decide to use a calculator or something.


Go and pout with your superiority complex. Meanwhile, we'll be here trying to make real progress.

saango0
Posted - 2009.09.19 00:57:00 - [1112]
 

Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 19/09/2009 00:52:02
Originally by: Orakkus
Seriously Bored is correct.

It appears you, Pattern Clarc, weren't here over a month ago when kessah's thread was chosen to be the continuing "Minmatar needs fixed" thread.
Oh, A month ago?

Where were you when I submitted an early tempest fix thread before few dared say it was broken?

Where were you when the foundation was layed for basically every single sensible discussion on Minmatar ship balance earlier this year?

The specific solution the player base prescribes matters more than you'd like to think, it mattered for Khanid, it mattered for the the Armour resist nerf and all the subsequent Amarr boosts that season. I admit that my solution may not end up being the one that goes through because I haven't taken obvious lolracialtraites (that mostly don't work at BS level) through or boosted Minmatar ships by silly amounts, however you need better worked out solutions than just +50% damage -50% ROF to artilleries (an actual damage reduction by +/-20%) and more thoughtful suggestions than +35% bonus to all ac fall off, without really understanding the type of collateral damage it could cause to ships around it. My solution has been a process, there's been a lot of research, comparison and feedback - the solutions are focused (instead of altering every single projectile turret in the game regardless of well how the ships of all classes worked before) and it seems to be balanced.

Anyway, I'll leave you guys to continue whatever you where doing, page me if any of you guys decide to use a calculator or something.

no offense, but you're giving yourself way too much credit. The tempest has been broken for years now and there have been PLENTY of threads before this thread or yours acknowledging it.

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.09.19 01:21:00 - [1113]
 

Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 19/09/2009 02:22:54


Originally by: saango0

no offense, but you're giving yourself way too much credit. The tempest has been broken for years now and there have been PLENTY of threads before this thread or yours acknowledging it.

Indeed, but being told to go home because I wasn't following eve-o sometime after the "I accidently the entire market" dev blog is a bit rich.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2009.09.19 14:23:00 - [1114]
 


Its minmatar so just bend over silently.

Orakkus
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Posted - 2009.09.19 14:48:00 - [1115]
 

Edited by: Orakkus on 19/09/2009 14:48:57
Originally by: Pattern Clarc


Where were you when I submitted an early tempest fix thread before few dared say it was broken?


BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "Few DARED say it was broken?" Are you smoking the same stuff Al Gore was? Did you invent the internet too? Lemme break it down for ya:

2004 Thread (not the oldest by the way either

Arty Thread, a year before yours

Another Tempest thread.. whoops, way before yours!

Yet ANOTHER Tempest thread, still again before yours.

Still, another Tempest thread, again a year before you.

This Thread was the one to get to the CSM along with this Scrapheap Challenge Thread again, nearly a full year before you.

Sorry bubs, you aren't the "Messiah" of the Tempest threads, all you became was the next snake oil salesman.

Originally by: Pattern Clarc

Where were you when the foundation was layed for basically every single sensible discussion on Minmatar ship balance earlier this year?


Ignoring the arrogance of a particular thread poster, that's where. In order for it to be a foundation, it has to be built on. Your "foundation" wasn't. It was bunched in with everyone else's threads like concrete slabs and got grown over by the weeds of indifference and lack of follow through.

Originally by: Pattern Clarc

The specific solution the player base prescribes matters more than you'd like to think, it mattered for Khanid, it mattered for the the Armour resist nerf and all the subsequent Amarr boosts that season. I admit that my solution may not end up being the one that goes through because I haven't taken obvious lolracialtraites (that mostly don't work at BS level) through or boosted Minmatar ships by silly amounts, however you need better worked out solutions than just +50% damage -50% ROF to artilleries (an actual damage reduction by +/-20%) and more thoughtful suggestions than +35% bonus to all ac fall off, without really understanding the type of collateral damage it could cause to ships around it. My solution has been a process, there's been a lot of research, comparison and feedback - the solutions are focused (instead of altering every single projectile turret in the game regardless of well how the ships of all classes worked before) and it seems to be balanced.

Anyway, I'll leave you guys to continue whatever you where doing, page me if any of you guys decide to use a calculator or something.


Well, as the Brits say, "Bully for you!" And all that effort got pretty much wasted because of the same problems that let all the other sensible threads that have been put forth over the years die. People get bored with them, they see something shiny, and even the OP gets distracted.

Has CCP made any changes based on your research? I dunno. I hope so, because Minmatar guns and ships need a boost to keep up with their love affair for Amarr and Gallante. Have they enlightened you regarding their upcoming plans? Doubt it, even the CSMs are sworn to secrecy around whatever is going on.

Do I claim that the threads I've posted, or in Kessah's case, taken over are the cause of this change by CCP? Nope. The ONLY thing I can claim is that I WON'T let it die until CCP has solved it.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.19 16:28:00 - [1116]
 

Originally by: Orakkus
New change to the Navy Typhoon:

Tier One Navy Typhoon Update

Now, I'm not saying that they are doing a change to projectiles.. but going back to a 4/4 setup would only be reasonable if, and I mean IF, projectiles were getting a significant boost.


As long as they don't "tweak" the Mach anymore, I'm happy. But yeah, I don't really see the point of another low. So we can have a 230K EHP Typhoon damage monster floating around?

Waitaminute. Maybe I'm fine with the change.

Also folks:

Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Indeed, but being told to go home because I wasn't following eve-o sometime after the "I accidently the entire market" dev blog is a bit rich.


We shouldn't be treating this guy like this. He's just aiming for the same things we are, and his ideas are just as sensible as the rest of ours.

Sorry for what seems to be a turf war at the moment, Pattern. Think of it like this: You have a group of guys who have laid down a lot of well thought out plans for a resistance movement. We had a ton of different ideas floating around, and we went through the trouble of trying to find one set of plans that we can all agree on. It was a bit of a headache, but we did.

And then someone else comes in later on and says, "Hey guys, I went ahead with this great plan of mine." Your ideas are good, but we naturally bristled.

Let's just all keep 'em going until SOMETHING gets changed, hey? Good ideas are good ideas. No one should get egocentric about them, however.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.09.19 17:43:00 - [1117]
 

Originally by: Orakkus
... THREADS ...


Wow, it's hard to believe how much I've been involved with this topic. It's really amusing to go back and read all of those threads and see my position change each time.

-Liang

Laughlyn Vaughns
Gallente
Lagos-Vaughn Industries
Posted - 2009.09.19 19:37:00 - [1118]
 

not read every page of the 38 page thread but from what i remember the ships are usually fine, its just the large projectile turrets themselves that need some love, altho i still harp on that to make the fleet temp sexy it needs a 7th turret slot and i think maelstrom could be a nice alpha with a damage mod over the current rof.

bronyra
Posted - 2009.09.19 19:53:00 - [1119]
 

I noticed that the fleet tempest is getting a 7th turret, Why not give the standard tempest the 7th turret. The fleet version could keep its 6th mid slot. The standard tempest would still have a weak tank but it would give it more damage, which it seems to lack.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2009.09.19 21:04:00 - [1120]
 

Originally by: Laughlyn Vaughns
not read every page of the 38 page thread but from what i remember the ships are usually fine, its just the large projectile turrets themselves that need some love, altho i still harp on that to make the fleet temp sexy it needs a 7th turret slot and i think maelstrom could be a nice alpha with a damage mod over the current rof.


nah, imo there are 2 different issues... proj broken (the main minnie one) and then pest that have quite bad slot allocation + papertank

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.20 04:50:00 - [1121]
 

Originally by: Seriously Bored
We shouldn't be treating this guy like this. He's just aiming for the same things we are, and his ideas are just as sensible as the rest of ours.


Quite the contrary. His ideas are rehashed versions of stuff we've legitimately shot down, and he has an ego as big as NMX. It will inevitably prevent real progress.

Quote:
Sorry for what seems to be a turf war at the moment, Pattern. Think of it like this: You have a group of guys who have laid down a lot of well thought out plans for a resistance movement. We had a ton of different ideas floating around, and we went through the trouble of trying to find one set of plans that we can all agree on. It was a bit of a headache, but we did.

And then someone else comes in later on and says, "Hey guys, I went ahead with this great plan of mine." Your ideas are good, but we naturally bristled.

Let's just all keep 'em going until SOMETHING gets changed, hey? Good ideas are good ideas. No one should get egocentric about them, however.


If he had bothered to do some reading and research, this wouldn't have happened. I'm not going to say "mine are the best becuase xyz" 20 page flamewar, that's quite ridiculous and tbh not everyone agrees with my changes and it's understandable.

The idea isn't to have the best changes, the idea is to have suggested changes that make CCP think "hmm - this makes sense and it's quite easy - and man, it has a lot of support. Let's do it". At the end of the day all we can do is bring items to the attention of CCP - doing them in the most radical of ways is counterproductive and likely to get a complete pass than in a more moderate manner.

Allen Ramses
Caldari
Zombicidal Mania
Posted - 2009.09.20 04:58:00 - [1122]
 

OK, screw the complicated garbage. Time for KISS.


For the Tempest vs Maelstrom DPS issue:

Right now, the tempest has a 5% ROF bonus and a 5% damage bonus, which offers a 66.7% DPS bonus at BS V, WAY more than any other standard issue BS. However, the mael already has 33% higher stock DPS because of the fact that the tempest only has six turrets to the mael's 8. So to close the gap, there are two options that can be done.

* Give the Tempest a 7th turret slot

or

* Replace 5% ROF bonus with a 7.5% damage bonus, give a second bonus to falloff or tracking.


Giving the tempest a 7th slot would make it similar to a mega. Replacing the bonuses would make it excel in alpha damage and range/tracking control, but have lower bonused DPS. I would opt for the second choice. After all, it leaves you with two launcher slots to augment your DPS, or a pair of PvP mechanic murder modules (RR). Not the case with the Mael.

For the overall DPS issue, fix projectiles. That is all.

Caroline Nikon
Posted - 2009.09.21 14:10:00 - [1123]
 

Please.. do not forget the tempest..... think of the thousands of players that cray every morning when they open the broser and check test server feedback forum ahnd dev blogs and see no boost for tempest.


Think on their sadness.. try to cope with their emotional stress and have pity of our souls

Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group
Posted - 2009.09.21 14:24:00 - [1124]
 

Edited by: Roland Thorne on 21/09/2009 14:26:52
Originally by: Caroline Nikon
Please.. do not forget the tempest..... think of the thousands of players that cray every morning when they open the broser and check test server feedback forum ahnd dev blogs and see no boost for tempest.


Think on their sadness.. try to cope with their emotional stress and have pity of our souls


(sniff sniff)

Naomi alt!

I spec in minny regardless, and have peace throughout the day. Its reasonable to expect balance however, and I want to see the pest repaired.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.21 17:57:00 - [1125]
 

It's kagura's alt you goof. Look at the 'surname'.

Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
Posted - 2009.09.21 18:18:00 - [1126]
 

Personally I believe the tempest is fine as a ship, allwats have and always will.

What is not fine are projectile weapons, ac's and arties.

I don't think we need crazy dps increses to orojectile weapons, I think they need tweaks, I also think that a slight buff and adjustment to other modules would help.


Firstly we need to remove reloading, no not ammo changing, just auto reloading. It's called chain linking, basically you keep the ammo capacity as is but when the ammo gets to zero it's immediately reloaded.

Next is range, we all agree that ac's tiers need more defines stats. It's been proposed before to keep the mid sized ac the same falloff but decrease the small and increase the larger versions falloff (s/m/l in tiers). That should be the case.

Artillery should gain a damage boost, not an alpha fix that keeps the dps the same, just an outright boost to the damage multiplier.

Ammo, fusion should be in emp's spot.
depleted uranium should give a falloff bonus, why is it that only tech1 ac's have no meaningful tech1 ammo that increases the range.

Tracking computers, enhancers and links need a falloff bonus.

Target painters should be a high slot module. Allow minmatar to use their utility slots the way minmatar would want to.


Beyond that, it's roses.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.21 18:45:00 - [1127]
 

Highslot tp... that would be interesting. A gross raven buff, but interesting. It would kind of mess up the golem and a few other missile ships - perhaps the addition of an entirely new module similar to TPs (like TEs are to TCs).

It certainly messes up the raven family, or if introuced as a seperate mod, buffs it wildly.

It would have to be pretty effective to replace a neut on the pest or phoon, but if you make it that powerful, look out for torp ravens.Shocked

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.09.21 19:18:00 - [1128]
 

Edited by: Kagura Nikon on 21/09/2009 19:19:10
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Highslot tp... that would be interesting. A gross raven buff, but interesting. It would kind of mess up the golem and a few other missile ships - perhaps the addition of an entirely new module similar to TPs (like TEs are to TCs).

It certainly messes up the raven family, or if introuced as a seperate mod, buffs it wildly.

It would have to be pretty effective to replace a neut on the pest or phoon, but if you make it that powerful, look out for torp ravens.Shocked



It does not need to be massively powerful to be useful! Just make it have LESS bonus than the normal TP (25% for instance). But a range (after skills of 140 + 80 km)....

And than than you have something WORTH using at the extra 2 high slots of the tempest while on sniper role! Would be very sinergetic with he low tracking of the arties! Also would give a definitive advantage for tempest on sniper role over the maelstrom! And would allow tempest do do something that the APOC cannot!

Keeping the base bonus smaller than current TP (and maybe increasing a bit the normal TP bonus to make MORE difference) and you avoid over helping the raven when compared to other ships.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.09.21 19:26:00 - [1129]
 

Originally by: Kagura Nikon

It does not need to be massively powerful to be useful! Just make it have LESS bonus than the normal TP (25% for instance). But a range (after skills of 140 + 80 km)....

And than than you have something WORTH using at the extra 2 high slots of the tempest while on sniper role! Would be very sinergetic with he low tracking of the arties! Also would give a definitive advantage for tempest on sniper role over the maelstrom! And would allow tempest do do something that the APOC cannot!

Keeping the base bonus smaller than current TP (and maybe increasing a bit the normal TP bonus to make MORE difference) and you avoid over helping the raven when compared to other ships.


IMO, that would not be useful. A high slot TP would have to be significantly more powerful (and possibly longer ranged) than a mid slot TP for me to consider fitting one over Neuts or AML or RR.

-Liang

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.09.21 19:31:00 - [1130]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Kagura Nikon

It does not need to be massively powerful to be useful! Just make it have LESS bonus than the normal TP (25% for instance). But a range (after skills of 140 + 80 km)....

And than than you have something WORTH using at the extra 2 high slots of the tempest while on sniper role! Would be very sinergetic with he low tracking of the arties! Also would give a definitive advantage for tempest on sniper role over the maelstrom! And would allow tempest do do something that the APOC cannot!

Keeping the base bonus smaller than current TP (and maybe increasing a bit the normal TP bonus to make MORE difference) and you avoid over helping the raven when compared to other ships.


IMO, that would not be useful. A high slot TP would have to be significantly more powerful (and possibly longer ranged) than a mid slot TP for me to consider fitting one over Neuts or AML or RR.

-Liang


as I said, yes woudl need to be sniepr range to be usefull.


Now imagine you have 2 tempest fitting those and your target suddenly is 60% easier to hit... for whole fleet.

Want to massively boost it? Make it be NOT stack nerfed.....

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:06:00 - [1131]
 

Originally by: Kagura Nikon

as I said, yes woudl need to be sniepr range to be usefull.


Now imagine you have 2 tempest fitting those and your target suddenly is 60% easier to hit... for whole fleet.

Want to massively boost it? Make it be NOT stack nerfed.....


The problem is that they (meaning BSs) wouldn't really be 60% easier to hit. Once you're that far out, the primary contributor to low DPS becomes range (either by virtue of being in falloff or using lower damage/higher optimal ammo). I suspect what you'd really see is a max of 5-10% easier to hit for the whole fleet.

However, a non-stacking nerfed high slot TP might really open up a world of hurt on HACs and such.

-Liang

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:28:00 - [1132]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Kagura Nikon

as I said, yes woudl need to be sniepr range to be usefull.


Now imagine you have 2 tempest fitting those and your target suddenly is 60% easier to hit... for whole fleet.

Want to massively boost it? Make it be NOT stack nerfed.....


The problem is that they (meaning BSs) wouldn't really be 60% easier to hit. Once you're that far out, the primary contributor to low DPS becomes range (either by virtue of being in falloff or using lower damage/higher optimal ammo). I suspect what you'd really see is a max of 5-10% easier to hit for the whole fleet.

However, a non-stacking nerfed high slot TP might really open up a world of hurt on HACs and such.

-Liang


Exactly! And even better. Not make so long range in fact. Make it 120km + 50 km. That would make interesting to consider engaging at shorter range (150 km to make use of the target painting advantage.. by "coincidence" the good engagement range of minmatar long guns. And FC woudl WANT a few tempests at least in the fleet just because of that !

Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:48:00 - [1133]
 

Happy to be a goof lol

A high-slot tp with range is a very good idea. So its not used by just anyone, give it a PG need of say, 200 so not everything can fit it. Might even be a good idea to raise that a bit so only BS should be able to use it.... not to the PG of a weapon certainly, but maybe a large nuet, etc, so its either/or when you are fitting your ship. Its best to not replace the need for a mid-slot TP. The only other option is to make it a projectile-class weapon of reduced PG that shoots a targeting laser, which would certainly limit it to minmatar ships, solve the raven issue, and allow it to share ship bonuses for range and idk what else, though that idea would steal a turret slot... This sounds a little stupid to me, but maybe it will jog some more thoughts to refine a high-slot TP.

Also, its easy to give falloff through a tracking computer. Just release a new script for "Falloff Range".

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.09.21 21:27:00 - [1134]
 

Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Exactly! And even better. Not make so long range in fact. Make it 120km + 50 km. That would make interesting to consider engaging at shorter range (150 km to make use of the target painting advantage.. by "coincidence" the good engagement range of minmatar long guns. And FC woudl WANT a few tempests at least in the fleet just because of that !


It would only be a useful item as described in very large fleets of largely Tempests.

-Liang

Mikelangelo
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.22 00:24:00 - [1135]
 

The role of a tempest is describe in its description. Read it again.

Its not a solo type battleship, or a fleet battleship. It's a small group, raiding type of ship.

Its not supposed to have the best tank, or the most hit points. It's a smash and hit raider, hence it has speed and a reduced sig radius.

That being said, there are some improvements that could be made.

Change the ROF and damage bonus to a 10% ROF bonus, then add a 5% velocity or 5% tracking bonus.

Add 600 powergrid, maybe give up a missile slot or two. The minmatar alrady have a missile battleship in the Typhoon, no real need for the Tempest to have 4 missile slots available.

Or, the delicat issue that CCP was talking about...fixing projectiles.

But, they can't fix that because soon everybody will be running around with 8x1400mm II on Apoc's with 8 gyrostabs.

Ahh.....the old days.

Problem is, the old days are gone, the new stuff is here, and the Tempest may qualify for a mild refit. I've been flying one for a while, and while its always nice to have more of something, a competent warrior fights with what he has, and fairness is not part of life.

Give it up. CCP won't do anything, until project XXXX ending in 2011 is done, then MAYBE they'll look at it.

Come on guys, you know better. Deal with it.





AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.22 01:31:00 - [1136]
 

I lol'd.

Guy telling us to "give it up" after it was already looked at by 4 separate CSMs and promised to be brought up at the next meeting.

Spaztick
Terminal Impact
Kairakau
Posted - 2009.09.22 04:03:00 - [1137]
 

Originally by: Mikelangelo
The role of a tempest is describe in its description. Read it again.

Its not a solo type battleship, or a fleet battleship. It's a small group, raiding type of ship.

Its not supposed to have the best tank, or the most hit points. It's a smash and hit raider, hence it has speed and a reduced sig radius.

That being said, there are some improvements that could be made.

Change the ROF and damage bonus to a 10% ROF bonus, then add a 5% velocity or 5% tracking bonus.

Add 600 powergrid, maybe give up a missile slot or two. The minmatar alrady have a missile battleship in the Typhoon, no real need for the Tempest to have 4 missile slots available.

Or, the delicat issue that CCP was talking about...fixing projectiles.

But, they can't fix that because soon everybody will be running around with 8x1400mm II on Apoc's with 8 gyrostabs.

Ahh.....the old days.

Problem is, the old days are gone, the new stuff is here, and the Tempest may qualify for a mild refit. I've been flying one for a while, and while its always nice to have more of something, a competent warrior fights with what he has, and fairness is not part of life.

Give it up. CCP won't do anything, until project XXXX ending in 2011 is done, then MAYBE they'll look at it.

Come on guys, you know better. Deal with it.





You're right, we should all train for Apocs.

*goes and queues up Amarr Frigate.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.22 04:11:00 - [1138]
 

YESSS! CCP FINALLY FIXED MINNIE BATTLESHIPS, CHECK THE PRELIMINARY PATCH NOTES!

Quote:
The description of the Minmatar Tech I battleships has had its grammar and spelling fixed.


Here it is fellas, the product of years of work.

Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group
Posted - 2009.09.22 04:20:00 - [1139]
 

Hell, I'll just keep flying my 'canes and rapiers til its fixed. I'm not becoming an amarraton :)

Tyler Lowe
DROW Org
Brotherhood of the Spider
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:09:00 - [1140]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
YESSS! CCP FINALLY FIXED MINNIE BATTLESHIPS, CHECK THE PRELIMINARY PATCH NOTES!

Quote:
The description of the Minmatar Tech I battleships has had its grammar and spelling fixed.


Here it is fellas, the product of years of work.


I wanted to laugh. This would be funny if it wasn't quite so close to my expectations.ugh


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