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Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.09.09 01:57:00 - [991]
 

Originally by: Allen Ramses

Quote:
Okay, no. That's not how you calculate DPS. It's Damage OVER time. 10 damage over 10 seconds is 1 DPS. So an increase of 50% damage is 15 damage, and an increase of 50% ROF is 15 seconds. 15/15 is still 1 DPS. Falloff is a poor range mechanic and optimal is superior (about 3x superior to be mathematical).
Sorry, wrong again. You are confusing rate and duration, which are inversely proportional. Also, I'll give you that optimal is ~2.66x superior than max falloff, but you forget that arties also have a sufficient, yet modest, optimal on top of that. You also forget that arties have a very high falloff range, which is unaffected by ammo type. Add 10% to optimal and they are railguns. Add 25% optimal and they have a larger window of error.


Increasing ROF is increasing the RATE of fire. Rate refers to how often something happens - for example flow rate is how much water is coming through a pipe. Thus, increasing ROF (RATE of fire) is giving a massive damage increase.

DPS = Damage / Time (1 / 1)
50% Damage bonus: DPS = 1.50 * Damage / Time = 1.50 * (1) / (1) = 1.50
50% ROF bonus: DPS = Damage / Time * (1-.5) = Damage / Time * .5 = (1) / (1) * .5 = 2.0

It's the same idea, and you guys should stop quibbling over terminology.

Quote:
Also, by your logic, a Raven should have a 10% damage bonus because it only affects six launchers... Ikanhazplx?


I don't think what he's saying implies this.

Quote:
You certainly can, provided you aren't in a stationary RR BS fleet (which are the death of PvP). Also, how effective is a scorpion in any kind of combat deployment whatsoever? Oh yeah, it isn't.


Um, it is massively effective. I trained Caldari BS5 twice explicitly for the Scorpion.

-Liang

saango0
Posted - 2009.09.09 03:19:00 - [992]
 


Psiri
Posted - 2009.09.09 04:24:00 - [993]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren

Quote:
You certainly can, provided you aren't in a stationary RR BS fleet (which are the death of PvP). Also, how effective is a scorpion in any kind of combat deployment whatsoever? Oh yeah, it isn't.


Um, it is massively effective. I trained Caldari BS5 twice explicitly for the Scorpion.


Idd, however I feel that it got a little bit shafted with the changes.

Chestrano
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.09 07:00:00 - [994]
 

Originally by: Allen Ramses
Sorry, wrong again. You are confusing rate and duration, which are inversely proportional.



Well, actually, you are confusing it... Liang is right. Your calculation is right if you change the "time between to shots" and not ROF.

Omu Negru
Caldari
Bang Bang You're Dead
Posted - 2009.09.09 12:17:00 - [995]
 

Edited by: Omu Negru on 09/09/2009 12:19:23



I know pvp-ers who pawn in tempest very hard. They are realy good in that ship and they can kill most of the other BS's in 1vs1 and they kick ass at fleets too!

I dont know how they manege that. Im not minmatar.

But I know that Minmatars is not an easy race to fly. This is, as many has been said before "the hard mode" of EVE.
In other words the noobs will find this ship weak or unbalanced becose they suck trying to fitting this ship or suck at skills or in generaly.

The best fittings will never be posted on forums.

You must use your brain to manage how to be performant in pvp. IF not fly Caldari for exemple ("the easy mode")

This is why I like in this game. The skills are not enough. You must have some brain too. Very Happy

Don't change the Minmatars. They pawn in those ships. I saw it.

Peace out. War in.

irion felpamy
Minmatar
Assisted Genocide
Unprovoked Aggression
Posted - 2009.09.09 12:42:00 - [996]
 

Originally by: Omu Negru
Edited by: Omu Negru on 09/09/2009 12:19:23



I know pvp-ers who pawn in tempest very hard. They are realy good in that ship and they can kill most of the other BS's in 1vs1 and they kick ass at fleets too!

I dont know how they manege that. Im not minmatar.

But I know that Minmatars is not an easy race to fly. This is, as many has been said before "the hard mode" of EVE.
In other words the noobs will find this ship weak or unbalanced becose they suck trying to fitting this ship or suck at skills or in generaly.

The best fittings will never be posted on forums.

You must use your brain to manage how to be performant in pvp. IF not fly Caldari for exemple ("the easy mode")

This is why I like in this game. The skills are not enough. You must have some brain too. Very Happy

Don't change the Minmatars. They pawn in those ships. I saw it.

Peace out. War in.



1/10 poor attempt at a troll.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2009.09.09 12:50:00 - [997]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 09/09/2009 12:50:52
Originally by: Omu Negru

Don't change the Minmatars. They pawn in those ships. I saw it.



I've nearly soloed a Raven in a Wolf once (then Falcon and Mega showed up to bail him out). This obviously means the Wolf is a superior ship to the Raven, and therefore deserves a hefty nerf.

My logic is also bullet-proof.

Beardponder
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.09.09 13:29:00 - [998]
 

The 1000th post

Lorz0r
Imperial Syndicate Forces
Posted - 2009.09.09 13:31:00 - [999]
 

is

Beardponderer
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.09.09 13:31:00 - [1000]
 

CoolCoolCoolCoolCoolCoolCoolCoolCoolCoolCoolCoolCool
CoolEmbarassedCoolCoolCoolEmbarassedEmbarassedEmbarassedCoolEmbarassedCoolCoolCool
CoolEmbarassedCoolCoolCoolEmbarassedCoolEmbarassedCoolEmbarassedCoolCoolCool
CoolEmbarassedCoolCoolCoolEmbarassedCoolEmbarassedCoolEmbarassedCoolCoolCool
CoolEmbarassedCoolCoolCoolEmbarassedCoolEmbarassedCoolEmbarassedCoolCoolCool
CoolEmbarassedEmbarassedEmbarassedCoolEmbarassedEmbarassedEmbarassedCoolEmbarassedEmbarassedEmbarassedCool
CoolCoolCoolCoolCoolCoolCoolCoolCoolCoolCoolCoolCool

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.09 14:23:00 - [1001]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 09/09/2009 12:50:52
Originally by: Omu Negru

Don't change the Minmatars. They pawn in those ships. I saw it.



I've nearly soloed a Raven in a Wolf once (then Falcon and Mega showed up to bail him out). This obviously means the Wolf is a superior ship to the Raven, and therefore deserves a hefty nerf.

My logic is also bullet-proof.



How can you say this? The wolf's guns were capless and so were the raven's. How can you dictate balance in a fight if both ships were using no cap to fire? Surely they're both superior to each other? DIVIDE BY ZERO? Shocked

Aranis Nax
Minmatar
Minmatar United Freedom Front
The 11th Hour
Posted - 2009.09.09 14:44:00 - [1002]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 09/09/2009 12:50:52
Originally by: Omu Negru

Don't change the Minmatars. They pawn in those ships. I saw it.



I've nearly soloed a Raven in a Wolf once (then Falcon and Mega showed up to bail him out). This obviously means the Wolf is a superior ship to the Raven, and therefore deserves a hefty nerf.

My logic is also bullet-proof.



How can you say this? The wolf's guns were capless and so were the raven's. How can you dictate balance in a fight if both ships were using no cap to fire? Surely they're both superior to each other? DIVIDE BY ZERO? Shocked
Surely the Wolf pilot was only 2 days old and the Raven pilot had been in game pwning assault frig nooblets for 15 years already. Clearly the Wolf is overpowered when a 2 day old can pawn so well.Shocked

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.09 17:22:00 - [1003]
 

Originally by: Beardponderer

Maximum LOLage


That was impressive. Congratulations!

We've sort of derailed the thread in about the last 100 posts, however. Here's a fun exercise: Who wants to graph up the current Tempest, proposed fleet Tempest, and Maelstrom next to each other? Just to show how effed the current one really is?

Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group
Posted - 2009.09.09 17:42:00 - [1004]
 

That would be cool to see

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.09.09 20:41:00 - [1005]
 

Originally by: Seriously Bored
We've sort of derailed the thread in about the last 100 posts, however. Here's a fun exercise: Who wants to graph up the current Tempest, proposed fleet Tempest, and Maelstrom next to each other? Just to show how effed the current one really is?


Easy to get ahold of. I need from you is a proposed fitting for each (how many damage mods/ambits per ship). I can get the rest of what I need off of Pyfa or from my own scripts.

-Liang

Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group
Posted - 2009.09.09 21:24:00 - [1006]
 

Just one gyro each, tempest can fit a basic dual plate buffer tank with one gyro.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.09 22:56:00 - [1007]
 

Edited by: Seriously Bored on 09/09/2009 22:59:05
Originally by: Roland Thorne
Just one gyro each, tempest can fit a basic dual plate buffer tank with one gyro.


Right. I imagine the new Fleet Pest would no longer be shield tanked in most situations, since they killed a mid.

I'd leave the ambits out of it, because they would affect each ship in exactly the same way. So one gyro for each 'pest, as they have the same slot layout now, and I believe three is standard for the Mael? I can see the Tempests sucking already, unfortunately.

As a side note, I didn't know pyfa was that flexible. I REALLY need to get it running on my Mac.

EDIT: With 7 double bonused turrets, more agility, and potentially more EHP, I can see the Fleet Pest being a more passable sniper than the Maelstrom now. Though even at 250kLP as opposed 600kLP, it's a damn expensive alternative.

Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group
Posted - 2009.09.09 23:09:00 - [1008]
 

Mael can fit 3 easy, and the 'phoon is anyone's guess whats fitted lol. Pure buffer 'phoon would probably not have a damage mod. Its easy to fit one gyro or ballistic control though with three plates.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.09.10 00:37:00 - [1009]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 10/09/2009 01:09:44
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

-Liang

Ed: Pyfa by itself is not that flexible yet. However, it gets worked on by the day and the author is very amenable and quick on feature requests. I've been working with the author of Pyfa and will be implementing most of my custom tools either as plugins for Pyfa or as core features.

Already, the UI has come a long way. It was a bit rough around the edges in initial release, but every person that uses it and makes feature requests/suggestions makes for a better Pyfa for everyone.

kessah
Blood Blind
Posted - 2009.09.10 02:10:00 - [1010]
 

Edited by: kessah on 10/09/2009 02:10:54
1010 Confused

10 in binary \o/

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.10 05:28:00 - [1011]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren


GIANT GRAPH

Ed: Pyfa by itself is not that flexible yet. However, it gets worked on by the day and the author is very amenable and quick on feature requests. I've been working with the author of Pyfa and will be implementing most of my custom tools either as plugins for Pyfa or as core features.

Already, the UI has come a long way. It was a bit rough around the edges in initial release, but every person that uses it and makes feature requests/suggestions makes for a better Pyfa for everyone.


Well, the graph is about what I was suspecting. Not being able to shield tank the Fleet Tempest makes it worse than the Mael in the damage department. And if you're going to armor tank, a properly fit Phoon beats all of the above. I'm guessing the Fleet Phoon will be the true new Minnie gank king, then.

Now if only it had six mids or seven lows...

In any case, glad to hear Pyfa is still trucking along. Once I find an easy way for it to run under OS X, it's probably going to completely replace EFT for me. (And I'm assuming since you're helping the developer, that it'll have proper falloff modeling too? Wink)

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.09.10 05:54:00 - [1012]
 

Originally by: Seriously Bored

Well, the graph is about what I was suspecting. Not being able to shield tank the Fleet Tempest makes it worse than the Mael in the damage department. And if you're going to armor tank, a properly fit Phoon beats all of the above. I'm guessing the Fleet Phoon will be the true new Minnie gank king, then.



Yeah, most likely. The Fleet Phoon will still fall flat on its face IMO. It's not worth trading a slot for no extra unbonused high slots. And yes, I realize that the extra launcher is worth alot more than the extra gun slot. But it's still not worth a slot which could be put towards a target painter and would likely help real damage more.

Quote:
In any case, glad to hear Pyfa is still trucking along. Once I find an easy way for it to run under OS X, it's probably going to completely replace EFT for me. (And I'm assuming since you're helping the developer, that it'll have proper falloff modeling too? Wink)


I suspect Pyfa will be trucking along for quite a long time. Failing all else, because it's an open source application. If the maintainer got ran over by a bus tomorrow, I could fork the project and maintain it myself if necessary (even though I don't have commit bit).

At any rate, Pyfa should be pretty easy to install on a Mac. There was a post asking how to do it in the Pyfa thread. If that fails, drop by #pyfa on Freenode and someone will help you.

-Liang

Eka Lawrencia
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.10 11:44:00 - [1013]
 

Originally by: Omu Negru

I know pvp-ers who pawn in tempest very hard.

I dont know how they manege that.




They use the fifth medslot for Ewar, highslots for neuts, and use AC tracking by getting real close in.

Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.09.10 11:51:00 - [1014]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren

Yeah, most likely. The Fleet Phoon will still fall flat on its face IMO. It's not worth trading a slot for no extra unbonused high slots. And yes, I realize that the extra launcher is worth alot more than the extra gun slot. But it's still not worth a slot which could be put towards a target painter and would likely help real damage more.



Sry, but i dont understand. Typhoon have 4 medium slots, fleet phoon too. Where is trading?

If you talking about 4 slots are not enough to put tp in, well, sad but true. But you still have crash booster

Marn Prestoc
Minmatar
Maelstrom Crew
Paradigm Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.10 12:03:00 - [1015]
 

Originally by: Schmell
Originally by: Liang Nuren

Yeah, most likely. The Fleet Phoon will still fall flat on its face IMO. It's not worth trading a slot for no extra unbonused high slots. And yes, I realize that the extra launcher is worth alot more than the extra gun slot. But it's still not worth a slot which could be put towards a target painter and would likely help real damage more.



Sry, but i dont understand. Typhoon have 4 medium slots, fleet phoon too. Where is trading?

If you talking about 4 slots are not enough to put tp in, well, sad but true. But you still have crash booster


I think he's saying that the navy Geddon gets 4th mid, scorp gets extra high plus weapon hardpoint, and domi an extra mid whilst the typhoon gets... a extra hard point.

bit of a **** deal tbh, but its a minmatar ship so pretty normal.

CAREBEARSTAR3
Brool Story Co
Posted - 2009.09.10 20:49:00 - [1016]
 


Allen Ramses
Caldari
Zombicidal Mania
Posted - 2009.09.10 22:46:00 - [1017]
 

Originally by: AstroPhobic
ACs do about as much DPS as lasers at optimal
Originally by: AstroPhobic
projectiles do much less base DPS.
Ummmm...


Quote:
...EMP that does a majority EM damage...
That is exactly my point. As of now, Phased Plasma deals WAY too much thermal damage (not to mention zero explosive), and now you want EMP to be the same way?

Quote:
150km isn't sufficient. That's about all you can squeeze out of a minnie sniper. Most fleets operate around 180 if not 200km.
Those 200km sniper boats have a 10% bonus to optimal. If you had a minnie ship that had a 10% bonus to falloff, it would have the same effective range, only with a different method of deployment.

Quote:
Yeah, it's a tech 1 ship with limited turret hardpoints just like the tempest. The tempest has always been the "versatile" boat - don't think I'm trying to change this. Just right now it's jack of all trades - useful in none.
The Tempest is a tier 2 battleship. It is not limited in the same vein as a Naglfar. Can you guess how many primary weapon hardpoints a tier 2 battleship has? Yes, it's six. The Naglfar, on the other hand, has only two turret hardpoints when it should have three. Apples to rotten oranges.

Also, a ship does NOT need to be specialized in order for it to be useful. If you can't fit a useful Phoon, you need to find a different game.

Quote:
You can't speed/sig tank a battleship anymore, period.
Did you know an ABing phoon will only receive 20% damage from a torp? True that the nano age is gone, speed is still an issue. Don't kid yourself otherwise.

Quote:
And the scorpion is useful in just about every engagement - I'd like to have whatever you're smoking.
It is useful in just about every eWar deployment, true. But it is not apt for any kind of combat role at all. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.10 22:55:00 - [1018]
 

Originally by: Allen Ramses
Originally by: AstroPhobic
ACs do about as much DPS as lasers at optimal
Originally by: AstroPhobic
projectiles do much less base DPS.
Ummmm...


Taken out of context I'm sure. With bonuses applied (5% ROF on each indiv ship) they're about the same DPS as lasers. Without that bonus (base, as I said) they're much weaker.


Quote:
That is exactly my point. As of now, Phased Plasma deals WAY too much thermal damage (not to mention zero explosive), and now you want EMP to be the same way?


I don't know what you're on really, do you even fly minmatar? PP is useful because it doesn't have any explosive. It's the answer to t2 amarr ships among others. Yes, I want EMP to deliver a majority EM damage. Something that can be used with decent results against shields.

Quote:
Those 200km sniper boats have a 10% bonus to optimal. If you had a minnie ship that had a 10% bonus to falloff, it would have the same effective range, only with a different method of deployment.


No, it would have to be a 26% (iirc) bonus to falloff per level, because it's that much weaker than optimal.

Quote:
The Tempest is a tier 2 battleship. It is not limited in the same vein as a Naglfar. Can you guess how many primary weapon hardpoints a tier 2 battleship has? Yes, it's six.


Except the megathron and apoc... you were saying?

Quote:
The Naglfar, on the other hand, has only two turret hardpoints when it should have three. Apples to rotten oranges.


They're both limited by gun hardpoints with sub-par weapon systems. It's a valid comparison.

Quote:
Also, a ship does NOT need to be specialized in order for it to be useful. If you can't fit a useful Phoon, you need to find a different game.


When did I say anything like this? You need to stop arguing just to argue. If you would have bothered to even read this thread (or a few pages back), you would know that I'm training up to fly a phoon right now.

Quote:
Did you know an ABing phoon will only receive 20% damage from a torp? True that the nano age is gone, speed is still an issue. Don't kid yourself otherwise.


Because AB phoons run around without being webbed or painter before being shot with torps? Don't kid yourself. The only thing an AB phoon is going to outrun is an AB raven.

Quote:
It is useful in just about every eWar deployment, true. But it is not apt for any kind of combat role at all. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.


Yes, the scorpion sucks at any activity where there's nothing to shoot you back. Like... POS bashing? Good thing there's the raven for that. For combat engagement where other people... shoot you, it's extremely useful.

Allen Ramses
Caldari
Zombicidal Mania
Posted - 2009.09.10 23:53:00 - [1019]
 

Edited by: Allen Ramses on 10/09/2009 23:53:02
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Taken out of context I'm sure. With bonuses applied (5% ROF on each indiv ship) they're about the same DPS as lasers. Without that bonus (base, as I said) they're much weaker.
You're on the right track. Keep examining your argument, you will find the answer that makes the most sense...

(if you don't want to, I'll do it for you. If a 20% increase to base DPS was applied, the ships wouldn't need the mandatory ROF bonus. They could use a tracking or falloff bonus instead.)

Quote:
I don't know what you're on really, do you even fly minmatar? PP is useful because it doesn't have any explosive. It's the answer to t2 amarr ships among others. Yes, I want EMP to deliver a majority EM damage. Something that can be used with decent results against shields.
Until lasers have an answer to T2 minmatar ships, that argument is not valid. I don't oppose supplementary damage output, but a 4:1 of thermal / kinetic damage is not supplementary.

Quote:
No, it would have to be a 26% (iirc) bonus to falloff per level, because it's that much weaker than optimal.
I don't follow. How would a 25% falloff boost to arties on top of a 10% falloff bonus per level (which is not affected by ammo type) be that detrimental?

Quote:
Except the megathron and apoc... you were saying?
*looks* Well I'll be damned. No wonder people hate the Hype. I could have sworn the mega had six turrets. And granted I am not skilled in Amarr BSes, I always thought the apocalypse was the same way. I guess I stand corrected. And if that's the case, the pest might actually need that 7th turret slot (and the Raven that 7th launcher slot, but that's another matter).


Quote:
Quote:
Also, a ship does NOT need to be specialized in order for it to be useful. If you can't fit a useful Phoon, you need to find a different game.


When did I say anything like this?

Quote:
it's jack of all trades - useful in none.


Quote:
Because AB phoons run around without being webbed or painter before being shot with torps? Don't kid yourself. The only thing an AB phoon is going to outrun is an AB raven.
Please. Phoons excel in small scale combat. They have 8 primary weapon slots (even though they are split, and thus have only one effective bonus), have a sig comparable to a BC, a very decent velocity, and an absolute abundance of low slots for speed mods. A speed fit is not effective in a blob; but then again, no fit on any ship is effective in a blob.

Quote:
Yes, the scorpion sucks at any activity where there's nothing to shoot you back. Like... POS bashing? Good thing there's the raven for that. For combat engagement where other people... shoot you, it's extremely useful.
You miss the point. Lente, Minnie, and Amarr have three combat battleships to choose from, caldari have two, both of which are highly specialized. But this discussion is kind of off topic, so I'll just leave it at that.

Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group
Posted - 2009.09.11 00:02:00 - [1020]
 

Originally by: Allen Ramses
Apples to rotten oranges.


Why are you even here? You don't even give a hoot about minmatar so you are just arguing just to argue. And, the 'phoon is one of the most useful minny BS out there, which is why I fly it. Its also the only minmatar ship I know of that can reach 1k dps, IF one is specced in guns, missiles, and drones.

Scorp is not as limited as you think. I've seen it in action in many different fits, and some I've heard of. It can pack a mean shield buffer fit for baiting, even armor tank in some circumstances.


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