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Shade IX
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2009.07.27 11:13:00 - [1]
 

This is the second time i have helped take on a Cap ship and nearly taken it out with a small gang only to my horror the Cap pilot sets self destructMad. Just to stop us from getting a kill mailQuestionQuestionQuestion

This needs to be changed!!! There still should be a Kill mail issued to help prevent this cowardly action!

Tai Akhenor
Minmatar
1st Tactical Assault Brigade
Posted - 2009.07.27 11:18:00 - [2]
 

I don't really think it is cowardly to self destruct your ship to ensure the opposition doesn't get a killmail. At the end of day it Eve is a sandbox game and a harsh one at that. If one side want's to deprive the opposition of a kill then so be it if they can do it quick enough, it lowers marale for the attackers and is just another tactic to **** the enemy off. Sucks for a small gang against capitals and sucks for large fleets against super capitals.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2009.07.27 11:28:00 - [3]
 

I guess it should be possible to code the game so that it treats self-destructs as NPC deaths and a awards mail to highest player damage dealer.
Not really a big priority for me though.

Is loot drops the same when a ship has imploded rather then when killed outright?

Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
Posted - 2009.07.27 11:40:00 - [4]
 

It is very clear that aggression times and self destructing times are ridiculous when applied to capital ships.

But then again CCP are :effort: about these "little things" and I don't think we are going to see any fixes in the near future.

Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
Posted - 2009.07.27 11:57:00 - [5]
 

WGAF

The net effect is the same, one less capital on the battlefield. Oh noes my internet spaceships epeen backbone!

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2009.07.27 12:03:00 - [6]
 

You killed a capital ship, be it by forcing him to self destruct, or by killing him yourself.

Why does it matter whether you got a kill mail or not? Does it change the fact that the capital ship got destroyed?

Kan3r Blaze
Minmatar
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.07.27 12:22:00 - [7]
 

I've raised this a couple of times, and now actually found the thread on the "Ideas and Features Discussion" board where it's going to need to be in order to be changed, so go post here:

Self Destruct killmail thread


Oh, and as I mentioned in that thread my issue with the current mechanic is that as mercs we get paid for killmails. No killmail = No pay.

Seqenenra Taa
Posted - 2009.07.27 14:24:00 - [8]
 

Carebear mercs?! What is this universe coming to?!

Pater Peccavi
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2009.07.27 14:30:00 - [9]
 

Maybe he self destructed because he had expensive officer fittings that he didn't want you to get. I don't see how its game breaking or unbalanced considering you didn't kill the ship; he blew it up himself. If we start assigning killmails for self-destructs, does the pilot get put at the top of the killmail if he had more hp left than you had destroyed?

Kan3r Blaze
Minmatar
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.07.27 14:32:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Seqenenra Taa
Carebear mercs?! What is this universe coming to?!


Ok, I'll bite.
It's very difficult to describe what we do as "carebear". Especially in context of asking for support for the idea that self destructs should produce a killmail for the purposes of us being able to track target losses accurately whilst on contract.

Kan3r Blaze
Minmatar
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.07.27 14:37:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Pater Peccavi
Maybe he self destructed because he had expensive officer fittings that he didn't want you to get. I don't see how its game breaking or unbalanced considering you didn't kill the ship; he blew it up himself. If we start assigning killmails for self-destructs, does the pilot get put at the top of the killmail if he had more hp left than you had destroyed?


Yep, fair enough. To be honest, it's not the loot we're after, and I'm not arguing that the self destruct mechanism should be removed.

If you felt it necessary for the pilot to appear on their own killmail then I would say that this does open up killboards for spamming as people self destruct their noob ships in order to get to the "top" of a killboard.

I think a more sensible method is for the killmail just to list damage inflicted by others.

One point about this will be that it becomes fairly obvious when someone has self destructed as the "damage inflicted" figure will look remarkably low, and there will be no loot dropped.


Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2009.07.27 14:50:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 27/07/2009 14:51:03
Self-destructing to deny loot is all well and good. Doing it to deny a killmail is lame. What should happen is that the last person to hit the target before it self-destructs receives a killmail as usual that lists all the damage done and what modules were onboard, but which notes the fact that the ship self-destructed. No fuss no muss.

Kan3r Blaze
Minmatar
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.07.27 15:08:00 - [13]
 

Dirk, that sounds good. Although would mean that killboard coding would have to be adjusted to deal with the part that denotes it was self destructed.

Not a show stopper, but something to think about for those KB developers out there.

Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2009.07.27 15:11:00 - [14]
 

It would also generate at least one really good whine thread that includes a story of how the self-destructing ship's gangmates started shooting it in an attempt to deny the killmail to the actual aggressors Surprised

Vidi Angelus
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2009.07.27 15:15:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Kan3r Blaze
I've raised this a couple of times, and now actually found the thread on the "Ideas and Features Discussion" board where it's going to need to be in order to be changed, so go post here:

Self Destruct killmail thread


Oh, and as I mentioned in that thread my issue with the current mechanic is that as mercs we get paid for killmails. No killmail = No pay.



Why don't you just FRAPS your kills? that'll show very clearly that you forced them to self destruct.

Kan3r Blaze
Minmatar
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.07.27 15:37:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Vidi Angelus

Why don't you just FRAPS your kills? that'll show very clearly that you forced them to self destruct.


Yep, someone else suggested this in the features and ideas thread.

We did do this the last time we had an incident of self destruct, however whilst that works very well as proof for our clients it does make it difficult for prospective employers to accurately measure our damage efficiencies.
Also, we pay our pilots using the points system on the killboard. It's not
ideal, but is the least work-intensive method of doing so, and without a killmail this becomes a manual task which gives a headache for our CEO and is unverifiable via the Corporation tab killmail tracker.

Another, albeit minor, point is also that not all of our pilots have fraps installed, or have rigs that can handle running EVE and Fraps, so there is the potential for this to hamstring our ability to report effectively.

Sera Ryskin
Posted - 2009.07.27 16:05:00 - [17]
 

And guess what: this is exactly WHY they self destruct, and why it should not be changed. If you want their killmail to prove your efficiency, try killing them faster. If you can't, it's perfectly legitimate for your enemy to attempt to deny you the loot and disrupt your operations.

Hurtado Soneka
Caldari
Vindicare Temple
Posted - 2009.07.27 16:09:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Sera Ryskin
And guess what: this is exactly WHY they self destruct, and why it should not be changed. If you want their killmail to prove your efficiency, try killing them faster. If you can't, it's perfectly legitimate for your enemy to attempt to deny you the loot and disrupt your operations.


This

leave the km system alone there are more demanding matters at hand... like rebuilding the caldari fleet models up Cool

Kan3r Blaze
Minmatar
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.07.27 16:14:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Sera Ryskin
And guess what: this is exactly WHY they self destruct, and why it should not be changed. If you want their killmail to prove your efficiency, try killing them faster. If you can't, it's perfectly legitimate for your enemy to attempt to deny you the loot and disrupt your operations.


Well, that could well be the case, although I'd be more inclined to think that it's due to not wanting us to have any of the loot.
The case I am trying to put forward is that killmails track efficiencies of pilots and corps/alliances.
If someone who we have engaged and will be killing decides to self destruct then that's fine and dandy. However, we have still caused that destruction of his ship and therefore "killed" him though our actions, albeit at his own hand.

Fraps does the job of us being able to prove his death, but producing killmails will be in line with the current ability for us all to track who we kill and how we die ourselves.

Sera Ryskin
Posted - 2009.07.27 17:00:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Kan3r Blaze
Originally by: Sera Ryskin
And guess what: this is exactly WHY they self destruct, and why it should not be changed. If you want their killmail to prove your efficiency, try killing them faster. If you can't, it's perfectly legitimate for your enemy to attempt to deny you the loot and disrupt your operations.


Well, that could well be the case, although I'd be more inclined to think that it's due to not wanting us to have any of the loot.
The case I am trying to put forward is that killmails track efficiencies of pilots and corps/alliances.
If someone who we have engaged and will be killing decides to self destruct then that's fine and dandy. However, we have still caused that destruction of his ship and therefore "killed" him though our actions, albeit at his own hand.

Fraps does the job of us being able to prove his death, but producing killmails will be in line with the current ability for us all to track who we kill and how we die ourselves.



Yes, I understand perfectly well why YOU want the killmail posted. However, why does your desire to have the killmail overrule your enemy's desire for you NOT to have the killmail?


Let's say for some reason my corp/alliance ended up in conflict with yours. It would be in my best interest to self-destruct all my ships (if possible), post fake killmails, etc, and generally do everything I can to ruin your public image and make your corp less appealing to potential employers. Why should CCP step in and enforce the accuracy of your stats, and cut off my ability to do things like this?


Of course I think that EVE would benefit greatly if public killboards were removed from the game entirely, so I don't really have much sympathy for people who whine about missing an occasional killmail.

Kan3r Blaze
Minmatar
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.07.27 17:08:00 - [21]
 

Ok, let's try and keep this civil if we can.

I understand that our contract targets get frustrated and will do whatever they can to disrupt/kill us, that's to be expected.

What I am trying to get at is that there is currently a killmail generating mechanic within game.
It currently does not produce killmails when the someone self destructs whilst being aggressed.
I understand why this is, what I am suggesting is an amendment in light of the current use of self destruct as a method of avoiding a game mechanic which CCP have included (i.e. the production of a killmail).

In some ways your post actually strengthens the arguement for a change as it is clear that people are looking to avoid being on a killmail, when in fact my initial viewpoint was that it was peripheral outcome of somone not wanting their loot to be pilfered.

In regards to your point about removing killmails entirely, there is some merit in that despite the fact that this would make our job of calculating efficiences nigh impossible. However, as it stands killmails are produced, and so I am suggesting that we make the system as complete as possible.



Boomey Pootra
Posted - 2009.07.27 18:45:00 - [22]
 

Killmails, to me, have always been just a record of anything I've killed. It's a log of ships I've killed, and not an end in itself. I can understand that a lot of pilots love killing for the sake of getting a killmail (partly why all those rare ships stay docked, because people who can't get them will want the second best thing - the killmail on those ships). Killmails have degenerated into a kind of currency in itself - when I was a carebear I didn't bother about them, and once I got a kill, the addiction and drive to play the killmail game, seeing how much ISK I lose and how much I gain, drove me to almost insatiable lust for more killmails. I joined gangs and killed lots of people, not because I felt any loyalty to that gang, or because I had anything against those people or wanted profit or ransom.. I wanted to add to my list of killmails. It became an end in itself for me.

Now I can imagine how someone self-destructing to avoid giving me a killmail would annoy me to no end. Having said that, now that I know this can be done, I'll make every effort I can to do it myself, so as to avoid giving my enemy the killmail and improve his kill ratio - why should I let him gain at my expense? Eve is all about trying to gain at other people's expense, and to avoid others doing the same to you. We PvP on ship combat, we PvP on ore mining, we PvP on Material Efficiency Research slots, we PvP on system sovereignty, we PvP on market orders, why can't we PvP on killmails? I want your killmail and you want mine. Are you good enough to get it in time? It's no longer a log.. it's something of value, for ego, for epeen, and dammit that's really what a lot of PvPers care about anyway.

Sans Honore
Gallente
Wirfadam Productions LTD
Posted - 2009.07.27 19:17:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Sera Ryskin
And guess what: this is exactly WHY they self destruct, and why it should not be changed. If you want their killmail to prove your efficiency, try killing them faster. If you can't, it's perfectly legitimate for your enemy to attempt to deny you the loot and disrupt your operations.


Yep.

Michael Corinthos
Amarr
Posted - 2009.07.27 20:49:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Tai Akhenor
I don't really think it is cowardly to self destruct your ship to ensure the opposition doesn't get a killmail. At the end of day it Eve is a sandbox game and a harsh one at that. If one side want's to deprive the opposition of a kill then so be it if they can do it quick enough, it lowers marale for the attackers and is just another tactic to **** the enemy off. Sucks for a small gang against capitals and sucks for large fleets against super capitals.


I don't think it's "cowardly", because it's a video game. However, I do agree that as a game mechanic it doesn't make sense.

If a pilot wants to self-destruct his ship for the purpose of denying LOOT to his enemies, fair enough. But the killmail? Consider...

If I catch you in a belt and NPCs get the final blow, I still get a killmail because I did damage to your ship at the time of its destruction. (Not during another session in the server logs, but right then and there)

If you shoot me in highsec and get CONCORDed, if I can get a shot off on you, or activate some e-war or something, I still get a killmail because I did something to your ship at the time of its destruction. (Not during another session in the server logs, but right then and there)

So why is it that, when the final blow is taken by an NPC, a player can still get a killmail but when the final blow is taken by Self Destruct, involved players who were shooting at that ship during that session, right then and there, don't get a killmail? It's inconsistent game design on CCP's part.

Would be nice if they fixed it to stop us from having to forge the mail for our killboards' tracking (whether it's us faking a mail of a capital we kill, or as in the case of some more honest PvP outfits, faking capital lossmails when they've self-destructed to deny their attackers the faction gear they were fitted with).

Kan3r Blaze
Minmatar
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.07.27 22:17:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Boomey Pootra
.. it's something of value, for ego, for epeen, and dammit that's really what a lot of PvPers care about anyway.


I have to agree with this. Yes, KM's have become a bit trophy-like, but there are those who are still using the killmails to track progress or efficiency, as opposed to a tool to stroke themselves with.

Most importantly though...

Originally by: Michael Corinthos

...as a game mechanic it doesn't make sense.



^ this.

Basically, I could argue why I think killmails should be produced from a pilot stand point all night. From the ability to track our PVP efficiencies through to enabling us to prove to employers that we have inflicted a stated isk cost on our targets, and others could argue that they shouldn't be produced because why should the aggressor have the right to get one or that it's killmail PVP...but the key behind all of this is the inconsistency that currently exists in the system.

If killmails are produced when a ship is destroyed in every single other manner, then why does self destruct not do so too?


Arcelios Lartont
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.07.27 22:42:00 - [26]
 

Although it should probably be considered a rather low thing to do, self destruction to prevent an enemy kill is a legitimate practice. The user would not, however, have self-destructed if they hadn't been driven to it by your aggressive actions, so you should probably receive credit for causing the death.

Hobgoblin ll
Posted - 2009.07.27 22:56:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Durzel
WGAF

The net effect is the same, one less capital on the battlefield. Oh noes my internet spaceships epeen backbone!


If there's no KM it didn't happen.
Ever heard of "Proof or STFU" ?

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2009.07.27 23:00:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 27/07/2009 23:11:08
Originally by: Kan3r Blaze

Oh, and as I mentioned in that thread my issue with the current mechanic is that as mercs we get paid for killmails. No killmail = No pay.



Well, should have brought a decent force to kill him in time then.

From the employer perspective (i.e. I'm the one paying the mercs), I'd probably accept fraps of the ship destruction as well. After all I couldnt give a damn about your efficiency, if you lost 300 ships to get the job done its your problem, my only concern is the job gets done not how many ships you lost while doing it.

Then again, I'd probably not hire mercs a second time that cant even rally a BS fleet to kill a cap in time before it self-destructs, reason being I'm concerned about the job being done.

If its just about tracking purposes on your own killboard, what stops you from posting a fake killmail to your board (adding comment with link to fraps and explaining it self-destructed for the non-believers)?

Kan3r Blaze
Minmatar
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.07.27 23:11:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Kan3r Blaze on 27/07/2009 23:17:18
Originally by: Omara Otawan

Well, should have brought a decent force to kill him in time then.

From the employer perspective (i.e. I'm the one paying the mercs), I'd probably accept fraps of the ship destruction as well. Then again, I'd probably not hire mercs a second time that cant even rally a BS fleet to kill a cap before it self-destructs.


These opportunities are rarely planned, and therefore rallying a large enough force to bring down a cap within the space of two mins is seldom viable, and is not an argument against self destruct producing a killmail.

Our strength and success as mercs comes from our ability to be flexible, but as we are expected to operate anywhere within the EVE Universe we don't always have BS close by.

Glad to hear you would accept fraps, as our clients have been in the past, but this doesn't address the issue about future employers and also our internal pay system that I have mentioned above, or the fact that the killmail producing mechanic acts differently in this case then other examples of ship loss.

EDIT to answer your edit Wink : It just feels...somehow wrong. Also, it'll never be 100% accurate.

Tom Peeping
Posted - 2009.07.27 23:18:00 - [30]
 

Bah ha ha ha ha

Step one... fail to bring enough DPS to be able to kill the ship in 2 minutes

Step two... Enemy who is in a loseing situation selfdestructs, and manages to take something from you that you didn't want them to take.

Step 3... whine about it on forums

Yes, I've lost killmails to self destructing, so I understand how it feels, but the fact remains that the enemy used game mechanics to deny you something you want. You expect your enemies to act the way that you want them to act?

I know it sucks, but frankly, in any theoretical circumstance where clones grant effective immortality, this tactic makes so much sense that there's really no way to complain about it. If you join faction war, self destructing is going to help prevent enemies from getting loyalty points... it's going to help prevent new faction ships from showing up. You the pilot have a choice to continue to add your dps to the end in order to fight the enemy that way, or to self destruct to slow the rate of faction BS aquisition and fight the enemy that way. It's a totally valid decision in a desparate circumstance

Honestly, we get enough of PlayDead posting faked killmails and trying to pretend he got killmails he failed to get. There's nothing that needs to be changed here. Move along. No need for more whiners on this topic.


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