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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.07.21 06:36:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 21/07/2009 06:45:21
This is a feedback thread about Amarr Citizen 155's latest bond:

Linkage

and is no way meant to lack of respect to him. As potential investor I have some observations though:


Quote:

This isn't the thread to discuss it in



But you did not provide for such a thread, hence this one has been created for you.


Quote:

Audit: I laugh at audits because I don't do trading so they really mean nothing in my situation



Once again (also for Ender2006), the "two weights two measures" applied to MD: "I am MD VIP hence I laugh at the rules you other lessers have to subject yourselves to".
(And none will dare to speak a word, because they'll be scared).

This is not the example to give to the new players. Else they can always say: "well X and Y laugh at following security procedures, why should I"?

BTW technically speaking, while a trader can't provide for collateral / crafting and thus an audit can only verify skills, NAV and inventory, in the OP case he got a sizable amount of tangible assets and those would indeed benefit of an audit as they are appetible collateral.


Quote:

none of which really play a part in this offering



If I go to my bank asking for a loan and tell them my house is not part of my offering, they laugh me in face. Possessions ARE part of an offering. If you don't pay, you lose the possessions.


Quote:

Trust: You either trust me (and ebank) with your isk or you don't.



Single sidedly calling an institution as guarantee for a private investment would be legally prosecuted in my country ("as boasting credit").

There's no Ebank official statement about covering the investment as well, you are NOT representing EBank in this business but just using their name to gamble and play Poker (or whatever). Furthermore, as claimed, there's no lockable money in EBank's savings accounts left.


Also, since the exit strategy in case of "hit by a bus" has been:

Linkage


Quote:

Inside my safety deposit box I have various personal RL assets and as of this Friday there will be two envelopes. Inside these envelopes are instructions on how to login to my various accounts and who to contact/transfer isk and assets to in order to perform a share buyback/final dividend if possible. I have asked Ricdic to be the party who will receive the isk/assets in order to perform the buy back



Who replaced Ricdic at the locker?

Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.07.21 06:53:00 - [2]
 

Just a second and I'll respond to all your point and make you feel stupid. No one else needs post, just wait a minute.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.07.21 07:00:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155
Just a second and I'll respond to all your point and make you feel stupid. No one else needs post, just wait a minute.


Seeing how you take any feedback this way:

[06:51:55] Amarr Citizen 155 > lol
[06:51:57] Amarr Citizen 155 > you fail so hard
[06:52:05] Amarr Citizen 155 > its actually going to be fun responding to that thread
[06:53:13] Ebolak > your bond thread?
[06:53:20] Amarr Citizen 155 > yeah
[06:53:32] Amarr Citizen 155 > VV trying to make a name for himself as some sleuth
[06:53:34] Amarr Citizen 155 > but he fails
[06:53:49] Ebolak > i dont see his response

and not even seeing how I avoided posting in your thread exactly to avoid ruining it, I don't need to wait for an answer to know what you are going to post.

Frenden Dax
Dax Acquisitions
Posted - 2009.07.21 07:05:00 - [4]
 

Posting in an 'AC is a scammer' thread.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.07.21 07:09:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Frenden Dax
Posting in an 'AC is a scammer' thread.


No scammer, but if it was anyone else proposing that bond he'd be called about the exact business plan and several other accessories.

Do you usually support: "I am cool, now send me ISK"?

Because imho the bigger and most famous the investee, the bigger the example they should give. Else all those talks about improving MD and its security, without examples off the people who count, are just moot.

SentryRaven
KIA Corporation
Zenith Affinity
Posted - 2009.07.21 07:11:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Originally by: Frenden Dax
Posting in an 'AC is a scammer' thread.


No scammer, but if it was anyone else proposing that bond he'd be called about the exact business plan and several other accessories.

Do you usually support: "I am cool, now send me ISK"?

Because imho the bigger and most famous the investee, the bigger the example they should give. Else all those talks about improving MD and its security, without examples off the people who count, are just moot.


It's rather simple though:

Don't like the offer? Don't invest! Not really rocket science, is it?

Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.07.21 07:19:00 - [7]
 

Quote:

But you did not provide for such a thread, hence this one has been created for you.


I don't have to provide a thread, you either trust me (and ebank) or you don't. Luckily I don't have to waste my time convincing you, sadly my reply to this thread could be considered an attempt at that.

Quote:

Once again (also for Ender2006), the "two weights two measures" applied to MD: "I am MD VIP hence I laugh at the rules you other lessers have to subject yourselves to".
(And none will dare to speak a word, because they'll be scared).

This is not the example to give to the new players. Else they can always say: "well X and Y laugh at following security procedures, why should I"?

BTW technically speaking, while a trader can't provide for collateral / crafting and thus an audit can only verify skills, NAV and inventory, in the OP case he got a sizable amount of tangible assets and those would indeed benefit of an audit as they are appetible collateral.

I'm not trying to set an example for anyone. I feel the audit process is flawed and if you check my posting history you will find I avoid those fun threads where the two sides duke it out. An audit would tell you nothing other than the fact that I have 56mill sp's and can fly any amarr ship. You would also see I have two other characters on this account, one of which is a cyno alt and the other is an ebank alt, the chances of you seeing an audit of this account considering it has an ebank alt on it are about the same as you having more veldspar than chribba.

I never mentioned having any sizable assets of any kind, unless you're talking about my tubby fat ass. If you're looking for a collateral-backed offering you've come to the wrong place. I make no attempts at deception.


Quote:

If I go to my bank asking for a loan and tell them my house is not part of my offering, they laugh me in face. Possessions ARE part of an offering. If you don't pay, you lose the possessions

I'm not you and this isn't about a house. Again, if you are looking for a collateral backed investment you are looking in the wrong place.

Quote:

Single sidedly calling an institution as guarantee for a private investment would be legally prosecuted in my country ("as boasting credit").

When the isk is sitting in an ebank savings account it is guaranteed by ebank, just like all deposits. When it is not sitting in the savings account then it is not guaranteed by ebank, sorry for not spelling that one out but I thought it was more than obvious.

Quote:

There's no Ebank official statement about covering the investment as well, you are NOT representing EBank in this business but just using their name to gamble and play Poker (or whatever). Furthermore, as claimed, there's no lockable money in EBank's savings accounts left.


http://www.eve-bank.net check out their FAQ and browse the site a bit. They do in fact guarantee all deposits, again I guess I should have spelled this out using smaller words and shorter sentences for the slower kids in the class.

Also, gambling and playing poker was a PAST ipo that has since SUCCESSFULLY closed down and paid back investors. This offering isn't about gambling but I can see how if you didn't actually read this thread and the threads I linked of my past investments you would come to that incorrect conclusion.

The savings accounts are empty, you get points for seeing that part of my offering. That is where I will put this isk when I don't need to use it for my manufacturing.

Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.07.21 07:24:00 - [8]
 

Quote:

Also, since the exit strategy in case of "hit by a bus" has been:

Linkage


Quote:

Inside my safety deposit box I have various personal RL assets and as of this Friday there will be two envelopes. Inside these envelopes are instructions on how to login to my various accounts and who to contact/transfer isk and assets to in order to perform a share buyback/final dividend if possible. I have asked Ricdic to be the party who will receive the isk/assets in order to perform the buy back



Who replaced Ricdic at the locker?



God you fail on so many levels its not even funny. That hit by a bus strategy was for THAT ipo. Once THAT ipo ended, that hit by a bus strategy ended. ****, Iíve changed my passwords at least 6 times since then. Now put your pipe and magnifying glass away Sherlock, youíve done nothing but look stupid.

Sorry if my replies above were a bit harsh, but your post had all the makings of an ďaha, look what Iíve discoveredĒ post.

Oh and BTW, in case anyone is wondering why I picked 12bill, its because I have 4 savings accounts that each hold 3 billion isk. So when the isk is sitting idle I can deposit it and I won't actually be paying more than 1% interest for it.


Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.07.21 07:49:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 21/07/2009 07:50:54
Originally by: SentryRaven

It's rather simple though:

Don't like the offer? Don't invest! Not really rocket science, is it?


It's simple if this is made by a "no one", and people would indeed not invest in a "no one" just in spite for this statement.


Quote:

I'm not trying to set an example for anyone.



But you do, for the mere fact you post off a particular position.
If I see President Obama making a "just personal statement / not trying to set an example for anyone", do you actually believe people will not use it as example none the less?


Quote:

I feel the audit process is flawed and if you check my posting history you will find I avoid those fun threads where the two sides duke it out



This opinion is worth of utmost respect, and having this very sentence in the bond text would probably not made me create this thread at all.
The "I laugh at audits because I don't do trading" is probably your "brigther child" version, but not everyone in MD are so bright to make the correlation.


Quote:

When the isk is sitting in an ebank savings account it is guaranteed by ebank, just like all deposits. When it is not sitting in the savings account then it is not guaranteed by ebank, sorry for not spelling that one out but I thought it was more than obvious



I don't say you aren't guaranteed but they way you present the thing is quite personal.

1) You dodge the "I = Ebank" statement you made (or better, if you "trust in EBANK => you trust in me").
2) "When" is the keyword. When is not now, so the alledged Ebank guarantee is stretched.

Of course! I don't have the smallest doubt you will pay tenfold, but how you present it is not quite formally correct.


Quote:

The savings accounts are empty, you get points for seeing that part of my offering.



Well, you list this as the last thing.


Quote:

God you fail on so many levels its not even funny. That hit by a bus strategy was for THAT ipo.



In fact I linked that IPO because it's where a hit by a bus strategy was covered, as I could not find the same precaution in the current investment.

I fully understand how


[07:32:27] Amarr Citizen 155 > im not an MD noob trying for my first investment and hoping someone invests, if you know me and trust me you'll invest


but your offer should not be oversimplified just because of that.



Quote:

[07:35:38] Ebolak > Well VV is wanting to get into the auditing business..... so it makes sense for him to comment and try to pick it apart...... that being said, we know it will not have much bearing on wether people invest or not...



1) I am already into it enough.
2) I am thinking about wether it's worth keeping on it or not. For one Investee paying me 200M there are others who would want money off me if they could. I gain more if I mine.


This also answers

[07:36:11] Amarr Citizen 155 > and Ebo, i know what VV's intentions are
[07:36:22] Amarr Citizen 155 > which is basically why that thread got created in the first place
[07:37:38] Amarr Citizen 155 > but no amount of threads like that are going to increase his reputation as an auditor in my eyes


If I cared of "reputation" I'd do like everyone else and would stay nicely shut and join the claque. Simple, wouldn't it be?

Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2009.07.21 07:59:00 - [10]
 

If people decide to go along with something because President Obama said so, that's their own fault, but lets not get political.

You made the strange connection between me and ebank. Again, I thought it was very clear that you have to trust two entities in order to feel safe investing in me because at any given time either ebank or myself could have access to your invested isk. Perhaps this is simply a language barrier between you and I.

There is no hit by a bus strategy. If I die, you lose your isk.... plain and simple. Don't invest what you aren't willing to lose. When I had that hit by a bus strategy in place for that old IPO it was because I had to have it (or felt I had to) in order to get investors. I don't know if I was right or wrong but I did it just the same. Now I feel as though I don't need a hit by a bus strategy for a 12bill investment that pays as much as 4% per month. I would say that if I died and ebank had the funds in my savings account that they could distribute the isk but how would they know who gets what? I guess I could just keep the bond ledger on my thread then if they wanted to they could do so but that would be up to them.

And lastly, what you're doing now isn't auditing so please don't confuse this with what people have been paying you to do. The only group I know that does auditing without your permission or consent is the IRS.

Miraj Salah
Posted - 2009.07.21 10:30:00 - [11]
 

Quote:
I don't have to provide a thread, you either trust me (and ebank) or you don't.


Nope, not trying to attatch yourself to Ebanks name at all.

Quote:
And lastly, what you're doing now isn't auditing so please don't confuse this with what people have been paying you to do. The only group I know that does auditing without your permission or consent is the IRS.


Nope, hes 'discussing' this aspect of the 'market' as it were. You come across as very defensive considering theres absolutely no threat to you here, there will always be people to fill the offerings of a known face like yours.
VV's more concerned that the secondary market develops beyond a few offerings a week by the same people all the time. Thats not going to happen as long as you elites keep this us and them mentality.


I agree with that sticky that got removed about reputation- there is none in EVE. Just because in the past people have been reliable doesnt mean they still are, we cant just let the inner circle be trusted unconditionally until they take the money and run off.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2009.07.21 10:36:00 - [12]
 

Is this thread a joke? Ha-Ha!

Please tell me it is. Please.....

If it's not, I just lost all confidence in humanity. Crying or Very sad

Ender2006
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.07.21 11:49:00 - [13]
 

posting in the Ender2006 is a scammer thread YARRRR!! Late for work though so will type more later. This looks like fun.

Zuhlaetah
Posted - 2009.07.21 12:05:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Ender2006
posting in the Ender2006 is a scammer thread YARRRR!! Late for work though so will type more later. This looks like fun.


Posting in a thread where those who should give an example, call themselves above the crowd and above the rules to enforce on everyone ... else.

Xiola Umbar
Minmatar
Iron Dragon Industries
Posted - 2009.07.21 12:32:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Miraj Salah

I agree with that sticky that got removed about reputation- there is none in EVE. Just because in the past people have been reliable doesnt mean they still are, we cant just let the inner circle be trusted unconditionally until they take the money and run off.


This.

Most of them still go through the process (recent examples include Bad Bobby's Titan IPO), not sure why AC155 think's he's above it.

Bonhomme Carnaval
Posted - 2009.07.21 12:32:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Bonhomme Carnaval on 21/07/2009 12:35:15
Originally by: Ricdic
My IPO

I laugh in the face of audits (you shouldn't)

Give me 200b


Originally by: MD Sheep
Ok! ISK sent


Originally by: Ricdic
Paying my mortgage kthxbai


Originally by: MD Sheep
OMG it can't be! *cry*


Originally by: AC155
My IPO

I laugh in the face of audits

Give me 12b


Originally by: MD Sheep
Ok!


Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Bad


Originally by: LaVista
VV your opinion is a joke


Originally by: MD Sheep
ISK sent!


*drumroll*

Unfamed II
Caldari
NPC Corporation
Paisti Syndicate
Posted - 2009.07.21 13:04:00 - [17]
 

Tritanium CAOD is getting better every day. Rolling Eyes

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2009.07.21 13:11:00 - [18]
 


Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
Posted - 2009.07.21 13:16:00 - [19]
 

posting to confirm that i am a riethe alt

YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
Posted - 2009.07.21 13:48:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Ji Sama
posting to confirm that i am a riethe alt


Confirmed. You both have the same IQ.

cosmoray
Perkone
Posted - 2009.07.21 14:25:00 - [21]
 

Don't understand need for this thread.

AC155 previous businesses were very successful paying above normal in terms of divs (>10%).
AC155 paid back all investors capital
AC155 works for EBANK
AC155 has long history in MD
AC155 has excellent reputation

AC155 IPO's/bonds would always be rated a low risk.

At 4% per month (compounded), this is fair value and he clearly sold out his bond due to his rep.
Why do you need this thread.


OP, you need to understand when some people launch a bond/IPO they do not need to give a full document. People will invest who understand the histroy of the manager. This happenned in this case.

KaarBaak
Minmatar
Seatec Astronomy
Posted - 2009.07.21 14:47:00 - [22]
 

The bit about reputations and their value....that applies equally to auditors as well, correct?

Why should I trust an auditor any more than the person offering?

Ohhh....that's right. Because auditors are impartial 3d parties.

As evidenced by this thread. /sarcasm

IMO : AC +5 reputation
OP -5 reputation
KB

Nuzzy Futs
Amarr
Hedion University
Posted - 2009.07.21 14:53:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155
If people decide to go along with something because President Obama said so, that's their own fault, but lets not get political.

You made the strange connection between me and ebank. Again, I thought it was very clear that you have to trust two entities in order to feel safe investing in me because at any given time either ebank or myself could have access to your invested isk. Perhaps this is simply a language barrier between you and I.

And lastly, what you're doing now isn't auditing so please don't confuse this with what people have been paying you to do. The only group I know that does auditing without your permission or consent is the IRS.


Since you have an ebank character on the same account and hence said an audit would never happen what stranger relationship could there be?

Since you have both the IPO and Ebank character your statement "you have to trust both entities" argument is a pant load since you are both entities.

Audits happen by many other entities with or without your knowledge and by many parties at many levels.




Dzil
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2009.07.21 14:56:00 - [24]
 

VV -

You had the facts to make a decent case, but it looks like in a hurry to publish them before the bond was swept up some things got confused.

AC155's bond goes against the tide pushing for more collateral, audits and information sharing in MD public offerings. Presenting or investing in this offering takes away from these foundations. Say what you want, but consider the z'xera fiasco recently: when that went belly up and he tried to run, one-by-one each of these came to save the investors. The collateral could be liquidated to partially replace the investments. The audit and information sharing forced z'xera to acquire and use a character with the skills to build capital parts, which then became an asset he couldn't liquidate. Finally in frustration he just threw the remaining capital back to the investors.
The system WORKED.

Now, AC155 has no responsibility to building this community if he chooses to focus his efforts privately. But I am surprised to see some of those that vie for more auditing and investor protection to lessen that position for a few isk by placing investments on this poor example of a public offering.

-Dzil

Tekota
The Freighter Factory
Posted - 2009.07.21 15:00:00 - [25]
 

If we ever reach a time where we stop asking questions of established folks then it'll be a dark day for MD.

I'm sorry but I do see that the OP has raised valid points which could have been answered in a calm and rational manner but instead have been answered with a high degree of obvious irritation toward the troublesome questions, and a not insignificant degree of insult toward the questioner.

Now feel free to call me "fail" also but VV was not alone in seeing the tie in to EBank as more than just stating that isk was safe whilst it was in the bank account and not being used by yourself, it certainly struck me at the very least of trading off their name and not an inconsiderable leap to see it as being wholly backed by the bank.

Dzil
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2009.07.21 15:03:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: cosmoray
Don't understand need for this thread.





That's really simple. AC155 requested that feedback not be placed in his bond thread. This is a very reasonable request that others in the past have made, as it becomes easier to locate and tally up reservations when they are not spaced out by really really long, point by point debates over the issuer's character, history, current financial health, etc.

However, in all such cases in the past, the OP has created a discussion thread for their bond, often before issueing the reservation thread. In this case AC155 did not. This leaves us with either creating a new thread to discuss the pro's and con's of the latest development in the marketing community, or to disrespect AC155's original request. We could of course drop it and simply not have a discussion of things that bother us, but if that is your recommendation you have a LONG history of calling out other's faults to go back and edit.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2009.07.21 15:06:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Tekota

Now feel free to call me "fail" also but VV was not alone in seeing the tie in to EBank as more than just stating that isk was safe whilst it was in the bank account and not being used by yourself, it certainly struck me at the very least of trading off their name and not an inconsiderable leap to see it as being wholly backed by the bank.

There's no leap.

AC states that he might put the ISK in a bank account. It's the exact same thing as him having a friend store the ISK. Do you trust that friend of not?

Say that I start a bond, and state that Chribba will be holding ISK once in a while. That's the same.
Say that I start a bond, and state that Istvaan from GHSC will be holding the ISK once in a while. That's the same.

It's information which the investors ought to have available to make the investors informed. The fact that some people percieve EBANK as a "good" thing, and hence make the same conclusion as yourself, has nothing to do with AC.

It's a fact, a fundamental aspect of this offering. Would you rather NOT be given this information? If the information wasn't made public, then this thread might have been worth something.

Clara Mismer
Minmatar
Gulfonodi Industries
Posted - 2009.07.21 15:15:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Tekota

Now feel free to call me "fail" also but VV was not alone in seeing the tie in to EBank as more than just stating that isk was safe whilst it was in the bank account and not being used by yourself, it certainly struck me at the very least of trading off their name and not an inconsiderable leap to see it as being wholly backed by the bank.

There's no leap.

AC states that he might put the ISK in a bank account. It's the exact same thing as him having a friend store the ISK. Do you trust that friend of not?

Say that I start a bond, and state that Chribba will be holding ISK once in a while. That's the same.
Say that I start a bond, and state that Istvaan from GHSC will be holding the ISK once in a while. That's the same.

It's information which the investors ought to have available to make the investors informed. The fact that some people percieve EBANK as a "good" thing, and hence make the same conclusion as yourself, has nothing to do with AC.

It's a fact, a fundamental aspect of this offering. Would you rather NOT be given this information? If the information wasn't made public, then this thread might have been worth something.


When you state that you have an Ebank character on that account and that will keep you from being audited and you are having Ebank guarantee or hold the money there is 0 separation. You cannot trade on the ebank name and say they will hold the isk when you have an ebank character on the same account and claim any separation of entities.

It would have been better if the statement was simply you trust me or not don't invest if you don't trust me.


Tekota
The Freighter Factory
Posted - 2009.07.21 15:17:00 - [29]
 

No I see your point there, it's good to know what the money will be doing whilst not being directly utilised. And yep, my trust in Ebank as an institution is perfectly sufficient.

But this was sold as a "way into an savings account" when it clearly isn't - and I note that this offering does indeed pay more than a savings account and so extra risk is to be expected. To put it another way, if AC were to run, and to empty his ebank personal savings account that held the deposits from this bond would Ebank the institution pay back investors? Clearly, and correctly, they won't and shouldn't.

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2009.07.21 15:22:00 - [30]
 

Actually given the past dealings with AC, 12b is a drop in the bucket comparatively speaking. He's held more and for longer. The fact that an audit would be forced to view ebank records and this likely violates the terms Ebank has with its employee's makes sense.

Its a non issue, its akin to PP asking for 10b after closing up a 120b project.


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