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blankseplocked CCP plz stop gimping the new Minmatar ships...
 
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Selim
Akh'Vehlr Industries
Posted - 2004.09.29 07:39:00 - [31]
 

I agree completely Darlan. Minmatar ships are supposed to be fast, do huge amounts of damage over time at both short and long range damage, but have poor hitpoints and capacitors.

Right now we have:

Projectile suckage damage wise
Projectile suckage tracking wise
Speed that doesnt give much advantage.

All three of them combine to make one huge, crappy race of ships.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2004.09.29 08:09:00 - [32]
 

Well, I'll have to think back a ways, but when I flew Minnie cruisers I would generally set up for long range and use my speed to dictate the terms of the engagement. My guns reached further, I went faster than my opponent, my only worry was that they would realize their situation in time and warp out. I would not orbit them and up my transversal speed, it hurt my accuracy and they couldn't him me anyway due to range, I simply "kept at range". And I employed appropriate countermeasures vs any missiles that were a threat. If I remember correctly this was after everyone started noticing the problem projectiles have with tracking. Hmmmmm.
I'm feeling the urge to fly one again.

Cruz
Out of Order
Posted - 2004.09.29 08:18:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Cruz on 29/09/2004 08:20:26
have you people even looked at the shield resists of the muunin O_O pretty damned nice, I dont see what there is to complain about, especially with 7 offensive slots.



and you people.... again.... whats with you people making ******ed comparisons against a ship vs another ship when you havent even flown one of the new heavy assaults... All this hypothetical BS is getting on my nerves.Mad

Siddy
Minmatar
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.09.29 08:37:00 - [34]
 

yeah - with minnie Heavy assault shield resistances you need only to stick Medium CL-5 and 10MN MWD + 100mn AB and there you go - you will have an über pwnage machine that goes insanely fast, (with inffinite cap) uses wepons that dont take cap (missiles and projectiles)


Granted - munnin or Vagabont wont be able to take BS 1 on 1 like deimos can Rolling Eyes - but im shure as hell that Deimos wont be able to pull out similar raiding tricks as Minmatar ships can


Wren
Minmatar
x13
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.09.29 09:10:00 - [35]
 

Quote:
It just sucks playing the crap ass D&D race that has -2 str, -2 dex, and +2 charisma.


Actually, it's like we are using greatswords on a character with -2 strength, -2 constitution, -2 intelligence, +2 Charisma, and +1 dexterity. (since our speed bonus is small to begin with and once you fit ab/mwd on ships the speed really doesn't matter)

We are using a strength stat weapon when we should be using daggers and have weapon finese.

Zu Lu
Minmatar
Legends of Matar
Posted - 2004.09.29 09:31:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Zu Lu on 29/09/2004 09:37:09
Edited by: Zu Lu on 29/09/2004 09:33:55
Originally by: Cruz
Edited by: Cruz on 29/09/2004 08:20:26
have you people even looked at the shield resists of the muunin O_O pretty damned nice, I dont see what there is to complain about, especially with 7 offensive slots.



and you people.... again.... whats with you people making ******ed comparisons against a ship vs another ship when you havent even flown one of the new heavy assaults... All this hypothetical BS is getting on my nerves.Mad


So what ? Slap an explosive hardener on one of the six low slots on Deimos and it has excellent armor resistance (over 50%) all round. Whereas the the Muninn has 40% resistance to kinetic and you can't really start sticking a shield booster and kinetic hardner on your 3 mid slots without having a sucky set up - you need the mids for other things and it is a much better to armor tank ,especially as best at close range, but it's best resistances are in shield which also get reduced from a mwd.

Seven high slots does not make it high damaging Rolling Eyes Missiles, without ship bonuses, do not do much damage and nor do projectiles (without bonus advanatge over others) and the extra slots that other ships have got like the deimos can be used for damage mods so it more than even out.


My main gripe is with the bonuses of the Muninn. It should be like the Rupture and Thorax now - where the Muninn has More DOT bonuses to make the weapons/damage balanced...




Darax Thulain
Minmatar
Reikoku
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2004.09.29 19:22:00 - [37]
 

I think this issue with minmatar ship is closely tied to the oversized ab "issue". If minmatars cannot fit oversized ab they suck, yes. If CCP ever thinks about limiting ABs and mwds to classes(which is stupid) they need to redo the entire minmatar fleet.

Sewell
The Happy Spacemen
Posted - 2004.09.29 19:55:00 - [38]
 

Quote:
Hell, you can do both. Pump up autocannons to be a nonsuck option in close combat and that takes care of itself. Maybe make the fireing rate rock bottom so the DoT is really up there and you get an awesome effect from a constant hail of bullets. I mean like a DoT comparable to the close range damage that the other turret types get to know.


Yes please - fot the love of god, tomb, cookies or whatever - do as this man says!

The entire Minmatar race needs some other purpose than being the laughing stock of eve...

I also agree on the mass issue; I find it strange that ships made of pins and tin (who also have low armor and structure) many times have equal or higher mass than other races. We get a higher base speed than other races sure, but this advantage is often negated by the fact that the mass of the ship is higher. (taranis vs claw anyone?)

/goes back trainging towards L Artillery spec with a tear in my eye...

RedParasite
Posted - 2004.09.29 20:11:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: ProphetGuru
Any speed advantage on any minnie ship is completely negated by how that speed bonus effects it's damage due to its primary weapons systems tracking stats.

Speed is useless if you can't use it.

Tell ya what, I'll trade minmatar speed for gallente tracking and we'll all be happy.

Laughing




Right on...re-vamp the tracking speed big time to allow for more frequent hits and higher damage and the speed factor becomes a big plus....Razz

Arvandor
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2004.09.29 20:23:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Selim
I agree completely Darlan. Minmatar ships are supposed to be fast, do huge amounts of damage over time at both short and long range damage, but have poor hitpoints and capacitors.

Right now we have:

Projectile suckage damage wise
Projectile suckage tracking wise
Speed that doesnt give much advantage.

All three of them combine to make one huge, crappy race of ships.

Negative.
You need to review your facts before posting extensively about something, you know.

With maximum skill bonuses from ships (ONLY)
Type: Heavy Neutron Blaster (Deimos) || 420mm Autocannon (Muninn)
Damage over time: x1.0417 || x0.7778
Capacitor use per second: 1.9 || 0.267
Optimal Range: 3000m || 2000m
Accuracy Falloff: 7500m || 12000m
Tracking: 0.1 || 0.1075
Note that tracking is better the farther you can hit a target
Powergrid %: 26.1% || 10.5%
CPU %: 11.2% || 6.76%
Ammo capacity: 4 || 2
Damage types: Kin, Ther || Kin, Ther, Exp, Emp.

There you have it, the strongest close range projectile will actually have better tracking, fitting, range and cap use per second than the strongest blaster. I must also point out that the strongest blaster is NOT effectively used due to the extreme (relative) fitting requirements of blasters.
Add in that why you use afterburners on minmatar ships is to escape shield and sig penalties rather than cap penalties.
Finally note, that the Deimos is the slowest heavy assault ship out there. It's even slower than Thorax. And Gallente is SUPPOSED to be close range.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2004.09.29 20:42:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Arvandor
Originally by: Selim
I agree completely Darlan. Minmatar ships are supposed to be fast, do huge amounts of damage over time at both short and long range damage, but have poor hitpoints and capacitors.

Right now we have:

Projectile suckage damage wise
Projectile suckage tracking wise
Speed that doesnt give much advantage.

All three of them combine to make one huge, crappy race of ships.

Negative.
You need to review your facts before posting extensively about something, you know.

With maximum skill bonuses from ships (ONLY)
Type: Heavy Neutron Blaster (Deimos) || 420mm Autocannon (Muninn)
Damage over time: x1.0417 || x0.7778
Capacitor use per second: 1.9 || 0.267
Optimal Range: 3000m || 2000m
Accuracy Falloff: 7500m || 12000m
Tracking: 0.1 || 0.1075
Note that tracking is better the farther you can hit a target
Powergrid %: 26.1% || 10.5%
CPU %: 11.2% || 6.76%
Ammo capacity: 4 || 2
Damage types: Kin, Ther || Kin, Ther, Exp, Emp.

There you have it, the strongest close range projectile will actually have better tracking, fitting, range and cap use per second than the strongest blaster. I must also point out that the strongest blaster is NOT effectively used due to the extreme (relative) fitting requirements of blasters.
Add in that why you use afterburners on minmatar ships is to escape shield and sig penalties rather than cap penalties.
Finally note, that the Deimos is the slowest heavy assault ship out there. It's even slower than Thorax. And Gallente is SUPPOSED to be close range.


prob is thos AC's chew ammo like a very large herd of very hungry sheeps in a very big field.Very Happy

Zu Lu
Minmatar
Legends of Matar
Posted - 2004.09.29 20:49:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Zu Lu on 29/09/2004 20:53:57
Yes but even Ion blasters do more than 25% more damage than the most damaging autocannon, the 425mm...

EDIT : Ion's actually do about 35% more damage Confused

Darlan Flame
GoonFleet
Posted - 2004.09.29 21:24:00 - [43]
 

Quote:
There you have it, the strongest close range projectile will actually have better tracking, fitting, range and cap use per second than the strongest blaster.


Which means all of **** when you take into account the fact that the autocannon's damage pales in comparision. Superficially, you're right, it's better in all those catagories. Fundementally however, you're absolutly wrong, because when you get down to it, the one, most important thing is the damage, and the autocannon just doesnt have it.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2004.09.29 21:36:00 - [44]
 

...in that issue I have to agree... and the solution could be a increase of the base Rof of the short range proj and a increase of the base dmg multiplier of the long range ones. But that's me rambling about ugh

dabster
Minmatar
Di Hart's Solar Systems Corporation
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2004.09.30 08:07:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Siddy
yeah - with minnie Heavy assault shield resistances you need only to stick Medium CL-5 and 10MN MWD + 100mn AB and there you go - you will have an über pwnage machine that goes insanely fast, (with inffinite cap) uses wepons that dont take cap (missiles and projectiles)


Granted - munnin or Vagabont wont be able to take BS 1 on 1 like deimos can Rolling Eyes - but im shure as hell that Deimos wont be able to pull out similar raiding tricks as Minmatar ships can





Problem being that by the time these ships enter the market, we might not be able to fit oversized AB anymore :E

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2004.09.30 19:22:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Darlan Flame
Quote:
There you have it, the strongest close range projectile will actually have better tracking, fitting, range and cap use per second than the strongest blaster.


Which means all of **** when you take into account the fact that the autocannon's damage pales in comparision. Superficially, you're right, it's better in all those catagories. Fundementally however, you're absolutly wrong, because when you get down to it, the one, most important thing is the damage, and the autocannon just doesnt have it.


So, have you thought about the two Heavy Missile launchers, then? Arvandor's real point is, I believe, that when you take into account all that the ship has to offer, then the firepower suddenly isn't too unsimilar.
Especially when you think about the fact that the Deimos is slow (and yes, how it DOES matter) and still carry the shortest ranged weapons, which is also the hardest, most demanding, weapons to fit on the ideal ship in the game. What the blasters gain in damage, they sorely loose in range and fitting. Get close or die.
And Gallente ships just doesn't complement their armament and ideal very well.

Oh, and for me the ideal of Minmatar is long range and heavy hitting, far more than great speeds. To be quite honest, what I believe they should do with the Minmatar turrets is increase their range by 1.5-1.7 times. (After that rather simple change my idea for the ideal ship balance concepts get rather complicated if expressed in terms of "change this ship that way")

Bad'Boy
Caldari
Men in Black
Posted - 2004.09.30 19:37:00 - [47]
 

minmater ship rules if you ask me...

Shevar
Minmatar
Target Practice incorporated
Posted - 2004.09.30 19:54:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Shevar on 01/10/2004 14:26:38
Originally by: Arvandor

Negative.
You need to review your facts before posting extensively about something, you know.

With maximum skill bonuses from ships (ONLY)
Type: Heavy Neutron Blaster (Deimos) || 420mm Autocannon (Muninn)
Damage over time: x1.0417 || x0.7778
Capacitor use per second: 1.9 || 0.267
Optimal Range: 3000m || 2000m
Accuracy Falloff: 7500m || 12000m
Tracking: 0.1 || 0.1075
Note that tracking is better the farther you can hit a target
Powergrid %: 26.1% || 10.5%
CPU %: 11.2% || 6.76%
Ammo capacity: 4 || 2
Damage types: Kin, Ther || Kin, Ther, Exp, Emp.

There you have it, the strongest close range projectile will actually have better tracking, fitting, range and cap use per second than the strongest blaster. I must also point out that the strongest blaster is NOT effectively used due to the extreme (relative) fitting requirements of blasters.
Add in that why you use afterburners on minmatar ships is to escape shield and sig penalties rather than cap penalties.
Finally note, that the Deimos is the slowest heavy assault ship out there. It's even slower than Thorax. And Gallente is SUPPOSED to be close range.


A: Take into account the muninn cant fit webber/scrambler with any form of tanking. And armor resistances are wimpy on the minmatar ships. Basicly said the muninn cannot solo like a deimos.

B: DOT calculations donot take dmg ammounts of the ammo into account. You say you can use all ammo types but fail to point out that the dmg is ALOT lower if you choose to use anything besides EMP.

C: Doesn't list capicitor nor the mwd bonus which the deimos gets (close range makes the mwd mandotory). Also the muninn gets hit harder by the mwd disadvantage because it doesnt have the -5% bonus the deimos has and has to shield tank (which it cant because it only has 3 med slots but hej....).

D: With a mwd a deimos will be faster then a sacriledge, eagle and cerebrus because they all have higher mass.

E: capacitor per second should take controlled bursts into account IMHO. It is a nearly useless stat for projs but definatly very usefull for hybrids.

F: Slot layout, since you need 3 med slots to effictively solo (mwd, web, scrambler) that means you HAVE to armor tank on both ships. The deimos has 1 extra low slot and doesnt need as many armor hardeners as the muninn so in fact you have 2 more low slots available then a muninn.

Chee
Minmatar
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2004.09.30 21:10:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Chee on 30/09/2004 21:19:28
one thing seems to escape attention:

the 425mm ac needs 140 powergrid
the neutron blaster needs 225

thats a 85 powergrid difference
say a munnin fits 5 425mm and the deimos 5 neutrons
munnin needs 700 powergrid
deimos needs 1125 powergrid

425 powergrid less needed on the munnin..
something that needs less powergrid to fit should do less damage

ccp never intended the ac's to be as powerfull as the blasters, its just no comparison, gallente blasters are the masters of close range warfare, that is the gallente philosophy, so its not comparible to the autocannons. ac's fit in perfectly in the minmatar ideals of speedy ships, when ccp finnaly makes speed a considerable bonus for the minmatar ships this will be a viable option: speed as a defense itself and the ability for ac's to operate at close to medium range (fall off on ac's is waay better then neutrons) who actually hit things. Gallente dont have the speed as a defense, and the mwd is more of a fast-approach solution to get the blasters usefull, orbiting with mwd and at same time trying to hit with blasters is tricky..

On every other aspect I agree, minnie ships are not as powerfull as the other race ships, but thats not really due to the ships itselfs (tho they could do with some enhancement, speed should become an actual factor), but to the sucky long range artilleries atm. Minnie bs are hit hard by this, cuz the dual 425mm is just no option in bs vs bs. And since the long range arties suck that pretty much rules out large projectiles. This atm doesnt affect cruisers/frigates as much, eg: the rupture with arties is still a very good hitting cruiser, capable of keeping up with the moa/rax/maller.

Shevar
Minmatar
Target Practice incorporated
Posted - 2004.09.30 21:30:00 - [50]
 

The main prob is that the guns are balanced in terms off large turrets on bs assuming bs skill at 5 (all smaller guns are just calculated from that). So basicly all minmatar guns are balanced on having double dmg mod (rof and dmg) compared to others (lasers none, hybrids 1 dmg). Now with these assault cruisers all cruisers got 2 dmg mods, and that leaves the minmatar guns lacking sorely since they where balanced in the first place assuming they had a 25% rof bonus more then the other races ships.

Other then that the problem is just the horrible slot layout on the heavy assaults, you cant shield tank on 3 to 4 med slots.

A small wth happened with projectiles:

the reason projectiles got horribly nerfed was because the tempest was most likely as good as the apoc now. This was basicly because it had 33% more dmg output on their guns and didnt need to switch ammo because of the huge fall off.

What was done was basicly make tracking more important (bad for the 1400), make the 1400 do less DOT (bad for the 1400 as well) and if that wasnt enough also halved the fall off so you couldnt use emp at nearly every range. So projectiles got hit pretty bad, and on top of this CCP made it so that you either needed loads of cpu for shield tanking or loads of pg for armor tanking, but not giving the tempest enough cpu to shield tank (raven got a 50 cpu increase) or enough pg to armor tank (the amarr bs's got a huge improvement and gallente got a decent improvement).

Also what didnt help the tempest was the fact that at the same time also a missle change was put into place basicly meaning tempest users couldnt fit heavy launchers and use cruisemissles (back then the "best" missle around). After the changes tempest users found they couldn't effectively use cruise launchers even because of lacking cpu (not to mention cruiselaunchers are total pants).

All these things put to gether basicly put minmatar ships so badly behind that from the most used ship in pvp to the least used ship in pvp.

Bohr
Posted - 2004.10.01 01:32:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Cruz
Edited by: Cruz on 29/09/2004 08:20:26
have you people even looked at the shield resists of the muunin O_O pretty damned nice, I dont see what there is to complain about, especially with 7 offensive slots.



and you people.... again.... whats with you people making ******ed comparisons against a ship vs another ship when you havent even flown one of the new heavy assaults... All this hypothetical BS is getting on my nerves.Mad



Yea. Super shield resistances and 3 med slots Shocked And you're even Caldari :)

Bohr
Posted - 2004.10.01 01:36:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
...in that issue I have to agree... and the solution could be a increase of the base Rof of the short range proj and a increase of the base dmg multiplier of the long range ones. But that's me rambling about ugh



Yay! :)


Someone with some insight into the situation. Autocannons are railguns, and as such ought to have a very good rof, to make up for the small dam modifier.


And on the other hand, the very long-range guns (artilleries, hardest hitting gun known to man :P) should have a heavy dam mod, to make up for it's very slow rof.

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2004.10.01 05:42:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Arvandor
Originally by: Selim
I agree completely Darlan. Minmatar ships are supposed to be fast, do huge amounts of damage over time at both short and long range damage, but have poor hitpoints and capacitors.

Right now we have:

Projectile suckage damage wise
Projectile suckage tracking wise
Speed that doesnt give much advantage.

All three of them combine to make one huge, crappy race of ships.

Negative.
You need to review your facts before posting extensively about something, you know.

With maximum skill bonuses from ships (ONLY)
Type: Heavy Neutron Blaster (Deimos) || 420mm Autocannon (Muninn)
Damage over time: x1.0417 || x0.7778
Capacitor use per second: 1.9 || 0.267
Optimal Range: 3000m || 2000m
Accuracy Falloff: 7500m || 12000m
Tracking: 0.1 || 0.1075
Note that tracking is better the farther you can hit a target
Powergrid %: 26.1% || 10.5%
CPU %: 11.2% || 6.76%
Ammo capacity: 4 || 2
Damage types: Kin, Ther || Kin, Ther, Exp, Emp.

There you have it, the strongest close range projectile will actually have better tracking, fitting, range and cap use per second than the strongest blaster. I must also point out that the strongest blaster is NOT effectively used due to the extreme (relative) fitting requirements of blasters.
Add in that why you use afterburners on minmatar ships is to escape shield and sig penalties rather than cap penalties.
Finally note, that the Deimos is the slowest heavy assault ship out there. It's even slower than Thorax. And Gallente is SUPPOSED to be close range.


Nice post. my 2 cents, you can take part of the stats of any ship and make it look sucky, it's the ship when properly fitted as a whole that has to be balanced, not one particulair part of it. And speed does matter a great deal on cruisers, minmatar are the lowest sig, highest speed ships around, not making use of this doesnt mean it doesn't have a use.

Nieda
Minmatar
Black Sea Industries
Insurgency
Posted - 2004.10.01 08:03:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Nieda on 01/10/2004 08:05:36
Originally by: Gariuys

Nice post. my 2 cents, you can take part of the stats of any ship and make it look sucky, it's the ship when properly fitted as a whole that has to be balanced, not one particulair part of it. And speed does matter a great deal on cruisers, minmatar are the lowest sig, highest speed ships around, not making use of this doesnt mean it doesn't have a use.


Yeah,

lowest sig, more speed - biggest mass !?
more speed - worst tracking !?

You see how our "advantages" negate themself ?

Thraxll
Minmatar
D'Ahrk Prophesy
Posted - 2004.10.01 10:31:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: ProphetGuru
Any speed advantage on any minnie ship is completely negated by how that speed bonus effects it's damage due to its primary weapons systems tracking stats.

Speed is useless if you can't use it.




EXACTLY. This is what I don't get about the current design philosophy on Minmatar ships. They give us the highest speed, and then make our guns gimped when we go fast... Rolling Eyes


Pada
Minmatar
Vinson's Vigilantes
Posted - 2004.10.01 14:06:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Pada on 01/10/2004 14:07:42
Originally by: Thraxll
Originally by: ProphetGuru
Any speed advantage on any minnie ship is completely negated by how that speed bonus effects it's damage due to its primary weapons systems tracking stats.

Speed is useless if you can't use it.




EXACTLY. This is what I don't get about the current design philosophy on Minmatar ships. They give us the highest speed, and then make our guns gimped when we go fast... Rolling Eyes




yeah this is very confusing to me as well.

Pada

Siroc
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2004.10.01 22:02:00 - [57]
 

Not true. Our low tracking guns only get gimped when you try to ORBIT at this speed. Our speed there to keep us away from the enemy and KEEPING the distance. Minmatar was never designed close range fighters although just like any race we have that choice. Our prime speciality is long range artilery.

I do agree that Munnin could be improved, but nothing wrong with 720mm. I use them as my primary weapons (4 of them) and have no complains. Damage I get from them is better then I can get out of Moa with 4 rails at the same range for example. I can only imagine how fast it will destroy enemies with 5 tech 2 720mm. I was just hoping to get some more flexability in low/mid slot layout.

Maybe loose one high slot (keeping 6 highs and 5 turret and 3 launcher ability) and get extra low? (being able to specialize ship even farther with extra damage/tracking mod or get better capacitor recharge...etc. Our low slots are realy where ship lacks because usialy most of them filled with capacitor relays and RCUs to overcome shortcommings of the ship.

Also, I am not happy about loosing 100 of drone space. I only use 3 drones at the moment because of my skills, but I would be happy to use 6 medium scouts at some point. At least if you take away drone space, then give more speed or less mass. It is a logical that ship gets lighter because of that.


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