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blankseplocked Self Destruct your Ibis - Self Destruct your Aeon
 
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Tom Peeping
Posted - 2009.07.27 23:25:00 - [31]
 

CCP!!!

Please oh please oh please oh please

DO NOT CHANGE THIS MECHANIC

Sheesh, I don't know why altruism would even post this in the suggestions forum, because they will usually fake up the killmail anyway. The fact that they didn't earn it doesn't matter to them.

If I have a clone, and effective immortality, the fact that I can potentially self destruct to avoid a faction warfare enemy from earning LP, or the fact that i can self destruct to prevent a mercenary from earning isk for my death is VERY important. It's a tough call to make to self destruct or not. Let's keep eve the complex difficult game that it is, and not go the WOW way of easy, simple decisions.

Honestly... altruism needs to stop whining on this issue (and maybe even stop posting fake killmails)

Kan3r Blaze
Minmatar
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.07.28 10:40:00 - [32]
 

<devilsadvocate> Well, if they're going to fake mails anyway, why not give them an accurate killmail? </devilsadvocate>

Very Happy

On a more serious note, I think whilst there's arguments that can be proposed for and against the production of a killmail the important thing to note is that it seems odd that every other type of ship loss in PVE and PVP produces one but self destruct is for some reason exempt.


Mephiston Lucius
Minmatar
Crimson Angels
Posted - 2009.07.28 11:44:00 - [33]
 

well man has a point stop crying over it killmails part of this game and some corp/alliances giving rewards to who have most kills / points /etc to pilots and also while activating your "self destruct" u should be loosing control over your ship / let alone loot there should be a sign for that destruction and its usualy a KM.. but ccp never goin to think over for this.. so.. good luck

Akura kawanaka
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2009.07.28 12:29:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Akura kawanaka on 28/07/2009 12:29:54
Having a read of this: http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Self_destruction implies that this will perhaps become more prevalent due to self destructing t3 ships eliminating the skill loss penalty of having your ship destroyed. It also seems to indicate that self-destructing a ship should perhaps not destroy the loot " Self destructing a ship leaves a wreck in space that can still be looted and salvaged normally." Which afaik is not really the case currently as all the loot gets destroyed.

I think a happy medium would be to fix the loot drop mechanic so that self destructing leaves the same chance of module drops as normal destruction. This would remove any tactical reason to self destruct and will reduce the whining from people who don't get their loot from T3 kills.

P.S. the fight that spawned this thread (Iitanmadan 2009-07-17 @22:30ish)is a good story - Motherships being de-cloaked by industrials, sleepy titan pilots jumping instead of bridging... lots of fun and frivolity. Unfortunately it didn't happen because there is no killmail proof :-( c est la vie.

Dasfry
Caldari
Demio's Corporation
United Stellar Alliance
Posted - 2009.07.29 07:23:00 - [35]
 

Why not just change the self destruct timer, to be based on a ships signature radius?

The larger the ship the longer the self destruct sequence.

Rawbin Hood
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.07.29 10:06:00 - [36]
 

i would like to see massive damage to surrounding vessels when you self destruct.

Tiny Tove
Posted - 2009.07.29 11:05:00 - [37]
 

I think they should grant the killmail to the person laying the final human blow in the attacking force in the same way that the killmail is granted to an attacker even if the target was actually destroyed by CONCORD.

As for the timer... dunno... logically it should not take longer to set off a big bomb inside your ship than it should to set off a small bomb inside your ship. Denying loot is very valid in my opinion.

Now if only Eve was about logic.... because if it was, it wouldn't take 2 minutes. I'd simply have to tap down on my joystick three times, twice at the start of the fight, obviously. Divine Wind ftw.

Rawbin Hood
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.07.29 11:32:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Tiny Tove
I'd simply have to tap down on my joystick three times, twice at the start of the fight

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2009.07.30 01:33:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: WhiteSavage
... its up to every supercap pilot to be quote on quote "honerable" or not.


First, it's "quote, un-quote".

Second, you don't need to use the phrase since you're writing this statement and can use real, honest-to-goodness quote marks(ie: the " you put at both ends of your so-called quote).

Third: what you were doing was not quoting something that someone had said, so it's not even correct to use 'quote, unquote' in the verbal form. What you were doing is called irony, for which quote marks can be used - but in the verbal form you'd say, "so-called honourable".

Fourth: the mothership is destroyed. that's what matters.


Izo Alabaster
Posted - 2009.07.30 03:08:00 - [40]
 

This:

Originally by: Xorth Adimus

A self destruct should still be counted as a kill the mail going to the highest damaging agressor. The only advantage of using self destruct would be to destroy all your cargo and fittings. It would be fun to also do AOE damage based on your hull type, but this would be abused.

A far bigger problem imho is the logoffski tactic used on solo JFs and caps in general, its getting more common when they screw up solo, when they get caught they should stay caught.



So, why is it that self destructed ships don't leave a killmail and loot? It seems like they should; or at least a killmail.

Tom Peeping
Posted - 2009.07.30 05:34:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Kan3r Blaze
<devilsadvocate> Well, if they're going to fake mails anyway, why not give them an accurate killmail? </devilsadvocate>

Very Happy

On a more serious note, I think whilst there's arguments that can be proposed for and against the production of a killmail the important thing to note is that it seems odd that every other type of ship loss in PVE and PVP produces one but self destruct is for some reason exempt.




Seems reasonable to me that a killmail only comes into existence when an enemy (whether PVP or PVE) actually kills a ship. This is simply not the case with self destructing, so naturally there's no killmail. It's pretty darn logical really

MirrorGod
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.07.30 05:58:00 - [42]
 

To hell with CCPs broken mechanic. 420 Fabricate Self-Destruct mails everyday.

Also helps to fraps/screenshot the kill. Further, make a propaganda vid, get an alt in said-cowards alliance and spam it in alliance mail, scrapheap, whatever. Making a thread about it just opens up the door for over 9000 carebears to fgt it up.

~supportin dis thread~

Aethrwolf
Caldari
Podrratu
Posted - 2009.07.30 06:00:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Tiny Tove

As for the timer... dunno... logically it should not take longer to set off a big bomb inside your ship than it should to set off a small bomb inside your ship. Denying loot is very valid in my opinion.

Now if only Eve was about logic.... because if it was, it wouldn't take 2 minutes. I'd simply have to tap down on my joystick three times, twice at the start of the fight, obviously. Divine Wind ftw.


problem here seems to be in the meaning of self destruct. In EVE, self destruct is like a wet navy scuttling a ship to avoid capture. The crew wipes computer systems, sets charges so the hull will not be repairable, and individually destroys/sets charges on all other systems. Thereby depriving the enemy of any useful material except possibly salvage of raw materials. In EVE it would actually be possible to deny even that with a big enough explosion to scatter the remains to the reaches of space, but an explosion like that would also have to do AOE damage and I'm sure CCP doesnt want everyone to have access to a mini doomsday just by hitting self destruct. Back to the point I was making... its only logical that a larger ships would take longer to self destruct. Yes, hulls could be pre rigged with charges, but I wouldnt want active modules rigged that way, as a problem with a module could in theory set the charges off prematurely. "heat damage now causes a chance of the module exploding every time it cycles" anyone? oh, and lets not forget "a module exploding has a chance to set off explosions in adjacent modules" which leads to "a chain reaction of module explosions can cause scuttling charges in the hull to prematurely explode, effecting an involuntary self destruct"

actually.. that might be pretty coolTwisted Evil

joxter
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.07.31 04:01:00 - [44]
 

Obviously a killmail has value to those that want them.
My ship has value to me.
If you deny me my ship than I shall deny you your killmail. Zero sum equation.

Leave things as they are, working as intended.

Rhohan
Minmatar Marauders
Posted - 2009.07.31 04:13:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: joxter
Obviously a killmail has value to those that want them.
My ship has value to me.
If you deny me my ship than I shall deny you your killmail. Zero sum equation.

Leave things as they are, working as intended.


This

btw, get over it. There are worse things in life. Rolling Eyes


Dav Varan
Posted - 2009.07.31 14:28:00 - [46]
 

You blobbed someone so they self-destructed.
Symapthy = 0.

Use less of a blob next time and maybe the target may try to fight it out.

Atropos Kahn
Caldari
Imminent Ruin
Posted - 2009.07.31 14:40:00 - [47]
 

- Easy Answer -

A ship that sets self destruct still has 2 minute timer, but Shield/Armor/Hull points immediately go to 0 once self destruct is activated.

It still gives the lone pilot the dignity of killing themselves when in deep space and stuck and want to get home fast, but also enables the first hostile pilot who comes along to relieve the self destructing pilot by not having to wait out the 2 minutes. Very Happy

This a win win for all...


Lord AtTiLAs
Legion Du Lys
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.07.31 16:52:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: WhiteSavage
The denial of loot is important too I agree. Another thing i hate is the fact that they can be shooting at you while they self destruct. Seems to negate the purpose of abandoning ship? Either way the game mechanic is flawed and needs to be fixed. The basic point is that it is impossible in most scenarios to kill a mothership that chooses to self destruct, this equates to a broken game mechanic. Needs to be fixed.


All module should turn offline when you trigger self destruct on a ship. Giving a possibility to kill it quickly.

Tom Peeping
Posted - 2009.08.01 02:07:00 - [49]
 

Sigh...

If you guys manage to get self destructing nerfed... I suppose that you're going to target ejecting from ships next? Exact same effect, and with a well timed eject, you still deny both the killmail and the ship to your enemy.

EMPIRE TRAD3R
Posted - 2009.08.01 04:56:00 - [50]
 

Simple solution.

No self destructing if you have aggression timer.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2009.08.01 09:39:00 - [51]
 

The gankster and Jan Brady tears in this thread are delicious.


Awww whatsamatter? Didn't get your widdle killmail? Waaaaa!

Gee, perhaps this game is not Gank & Blob Online after all.

Since I don't see the same names calling for an end to insurance payouts for ships lost to CONCORD...
Since I don't see an end to "aiding and abetting criminals and known terrorists" - known in this game as grinding LVL 4 missions with an alt and sending the fat ISK to the piratey main...
Since I don't see an end to the unbeatable bubblerama...
Since I don't see high-security status players being able to hunt down and attack low-sec players without taking a security hit themselves...
And since I don't see an end to people with null sec status even seeing any high-sec gates that will work for them when in a pod...


Now the same crowd is crying over not getting a killmail because their victim used that one last resort to everything else the offending party had.


Next thing they will want is to nerf cloaks or move all lvl 4 missions to low sec.

Seriously, they take wrecks out from under the mission runners, because they can, with no consideration for the time and ammunition spent on making that wreck, but now a simple self-destruct command denys them a killmail for the time and ammunition they spent, and here comes the river of tears.


And I thought this game was not supposed to be fair.

Self destruct is fine. If you don't like it, go back to playing your Blood Elves.

ninjaholic
Gallente
House Aratus
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2009.08.01 11:05:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Sera Ryskin
Killmails are not everything. Get over it.


Lol. Blunt but fact. If you can't blow it up within the two minutes of the pilot realizing it's game over, then you don't deserve the killmail Very Happy

Plus, honorable players in Eve Online?

Keep looking, there's not that many.

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2009.08.01 11:41:00 - [53]
 

2 minutes is actually far to long.

Either make some ships without self destruct or reduce that timer to 30 seconds.

When you have the choice of moving 30 BS 80 jumps or stripping them of modules and self destructing for insurance so you can buy them again at the destination, 2mins - almost 1 hour of time (session changes ftl), it can add up, but its still tons (HOURS) faster than moving them still.

As for not dropping anything, hahahahahaha someone is ninja'looting and NOT TELLING YOU.

Self destruct drops same as normal kill. You got fooled by someone in your own corp/fleet.

Must admit, I'm missing many a capital kill on my stats for this, but really don't need my e-peen rubbed so meh.


Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2009.08.01 16:39:00 - [54]
 


I think if a ship is destroyed (however it's done) while the aggression timer is active, a killmail should be generated, sent to the last person that damaged it. The self destructor could be excluded from this by timestamping the damage done by the SD at the point that self destruct was initiated, rather than when the damage was applied.

As to the AOE effect in terms of damage/blast radius, make them equivalent to a number of smartbombs going off- maybe with different race's ships doing different damage types.

so frigate hull would explode equivalent to X small smartbombs
Destroyer hull would explode equivalent to Y small smartbombs
cruiser hull would explode equivalent to Z medium smartbombs
etc.

This way the AOE is limited, while still having the risk of flying too close to an exploding ship.

Glyken

Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2009.08.02 07:44:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: Robert Caldera
killmail *****.
The MS is down, wheter selfdestructed or shot into pieces, whatever. Your goal is achieved.


This.

And why should it be any different in rookie shisp time to self destyrucy adn a MS? you only press a trigger :P.

So your comparisson to a rookie ships do not help your cause in my eyes.


Actually, from a realism point of view, 2 minutes is way too short for a large ship. It takes time to skuttle a real ship, you have to rig sufficient charges, and be sure they will all go off. For a cap ship to be completely destroyed with no loot left over, you'd have to rig every single system with massive charges. To just "press a button" and blow up your ship, you'd have to have the charges pre-rigged, in which case any bit of damage could destroy your whole ship. It's very difficult to skuttle a ship in combat. Even overloading a reactor core takes a long ass time. Usually, you destroy your own ship after combat, because it's crippled, to keep it out of enemy hands. When is that a problem in Eve?

As for the kill mail, some people care some don't. Seems to me that if you self destruct your ship you care.

That's beside the point though. The whole no kill mail from SD seems like an oversite to me. If the ship exploded then there should be a kill mail somewhere. Everything in eve gets recorded somewhere. Seems to me that it should be sent to whoever got the last hit before it went boom. I've had people on some of my loss mails that were completely unrelated to the actual battle I lost my ship in. They shot at me as I jumped through a gate two systems ago or something. Why shouldn't the people that shot at a ship before it self destructed show up? Hell put the pilot of the ship on there too, and show his damage to his own ship as well.

wickedpheonix
Caldari
Guy Fawkes Trust Fund
31ST Reliables Division
Posted - 2009.08.02 13:35:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
killmail *****.
The MS is down, wheter selfdestructed or shot into pieces, whatever. Your goal is achieved.


You know, not all of us live in nullsec where our sole purpose would be to gain more space and keep people out of our existing space. For small gang/solo that killmail isn't proof that you killed someone but rather proof that someone died as a result of your actions. To deny a killmail to your enemy is pure and utter cowardice.

So it basically works like this CCP: either give us a killmail when someone self-destructs (because wanting to deny your opponent loot is arguably legitimate) or let us petition self-destructing as a form of griefing. The system as it is is 100% broken.

Aston Vette
Posted - 2009.08.02 21:52:00 - [57]
 

You're right. Self destructing an ibis should take less time than a mothership. For instance all you would have to do to destroy an ibis would be to open a hatch. So that would probably take only like 5-10 seconds right? The mothership should take about 2 minutes or less, since there's probably a button or something. Maybe a big lever...

While we're messing around with the timers, loot tables, etc. I'd like to say that the explosion caused by self destruction should be sufficient to cause damage to those nearby. Like a mothership kaboom should take out t1 cruisers within 10km or so. Please discuss.

Alfons Richthofen
Posted - 2009.08.02 22:25:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Sader Rykane
Question:

As an alliance that gets "paid" for killmails.

Why are you not Frapsing these encounters? Thats just as much proof as a kill mail that the enemy was destroyed....


More important things to worry about in a battle. Some people don't have the hardware to play with FRAPS on.

Kempeth
Gallente
Posted - 2009.08.03 09:20:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Actually, from a realism point of view, 2 minutes is way too short for a large ship. It takes time to skuttle a real ship, you have to rig sufficient charges, and be sure they will all go off. For a cap ship to be completely destroyed with no loot left over, you'd have to rig every single system with massive charges. To just "press a button" and blow up your ship, you'd have to have the charges pre-rigged, in which case any bit of damage could destroy your whole ship.

You're thinking traditional explosive charges. EVE Technology is far more advanced. The shipyards could have installed numerous smartbombs all around the ship. They wouldn't prematurely detonate because of incoming damage and would only require the push of a button to be set off.

As for the killmail I don't see why one should be issued or the kill attributed to the last person to shoot at the ship. If it's your profession to cause as much damage and demoralization as possible to other players by killing their ships you should accept their ability to do the same to you and deny you the kill...

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2009.08.03 12:11:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Kempeth
As for the killmail I don't see why one should be issued or the kill attributed to the last person to shoot at the ship. If it's your profession to cause as much damage and demoralization as possible to other players by killing their ships you should accept their ability to do the same to you and deny you the kill...


this


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