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blankseplocked [psych] The Theory of the Failure Cascade: How Alliances Die
 
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SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar
Aperture Science inc.
Posted - 2009.07.16 19:58:00 - [61]
 

btw

On a more personal note I would like to add that another possible reason for the onset of collective helplessness in the face of adversity
might be pilots imagining that even though they are capable to rationalise the losses their alliance mates might not be able to.

Thus compromising faith in said alliance members and furthermore increasing the feeling of personal helplessness.

One might argue that the course of action would be to try and inspire possibly helpless pilots but people tend to get even more
demoralised by that due to the realisation that that same person trying to inspire people and boost morale clearly feels there is a need to.

It's a downwards spiral.

Master Mnemosyne
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.07.16 20:00:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: VCBee 516
Originally by: Kaaii
Originally by: Machine Delta
Originally by: Das Panzer
Too long, didnt read.
Same rubbish as always Mittens, just more words.
Only thing interesting about this is how many more angles you can squeeze from Bob disband.


A perfect display of ignorance


Don't be so hard on yourself, u mad?

oh and too mittens, not worth the read...



So if you didn't read it why are you here? Just trolling because you dislike certain people so much?

At least other posters here are contributing something.


You know you're in the post-BOB era when a goon is complaining about trolling.Rolling Eyes

The Mittani
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.07.16 20:05:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: William DeMeo

The profit motive, or maybe I should say "production for profit" (after all, cultural victory), is the only rational thing required for a free market to work. Are you, with your BA in psychology, going to tell me that this does not exist? As for people, I agree that most people are irrational, driven by emotions, and are generally unfit to be trusted to make any sensible decisions. Indeed, for evidence of this you need only look at liberals.


sorry darling the chicago school is so 2007

when even a diehard randian like greenspan backs away from rationality as a governing force in the market, you're left looking like the kind of guy who invests in mortgage-backed securities

see generally this book, particularly the forward in the revised edition

SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar
Aperture Science inc.
Posted - 2009.07.16 20:17:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: SFX Bladerunner on 16/07/2009 20:17:15
Originally by: The Mittani
Originally by: Khorian
Edited by: Khorian on 16/07/2009 17:42:33
German Alliances collapse even before they are formed, because for some reason they obviously can't accept to have just one guy in charge. Also, they prefer demcratic discussions over pvp.
Just thought i'd share this piece of wisdom. You're welcome.


democracy never works in 0.0, ever

alliances burdened with 'councils' explode much faster than those without


They tend to be more predictable/consistant than alliances with one dictator though.

As you said it yourself, individuals are unpredictable, but the larger a group of people becomes the more predictable it becomes aswell.

Thus this would lead to the conclusion that a dictatorship such as goonswarm is quite unpredictable, seeing as one person can easily change his mind in one day and decide to go all emorage on his alliance or whatever.

Then again in that situation he would probably be kicked from his dictator position (either voluntarily or otherwise) and replaced by someone the alliance (or atleast a larger part of it) can get behind.

Thus effectivly making the notion/idea of a 'true dictatorship' void.

After all it's not like an alliance dictator has an army of loyalists to his disposal to fear his peers into obeying him like a true dictator would in Real Life.. so in the end an eve online alliance 'dictator' really only calls the shots for as long as his decisions appeal the majority of his memberbase.

discuss.

The Mittani
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.07.16 20:19:00 - [65]
 

goonswarm's ability to abandon all of its territory and invade delve on one day's notice came from having a dictator ceo

i agree, a council govt is much less able to react quickly to unfolding events

SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar
Aperture Science inc.
Posted - 2009.07.16 20:26:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: SFX Bladerunner on 16/07/2009 20:28:50
Originally by: The Mittani
goonswarm's ability to abandon all of its territory and invade delve on one day's notice came from having a dictator ceo

i agree, a council govt is much less able to react quickly to unfolding events


You are definatelly correct in the sense that a single director takes away the hassle of discussion and makes decisionmaking a quick process.

My main point that said decisions only stand due to membership agreeing with the 'dictator' however still stands.

Not to mention that the whole 'quick decisionmaking' concept goes out of the window if said dictator goes afk for 2 or more days.
Basically to make your arguement valid said dictator would have to be on standby practically 24/7, which even though I'm sure
some people would be able to pull off, I personally would not be able to.

Lowanaera
Amarr
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.07.16 20:28:00 - [67]
 

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2009/06/irrational-markets-people-reject-free-money-out-of-anger.ars

Rational markets are a myth.

Das Panzer
Minmatar
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.07.16 21:02:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
goonswarm's ability to abandon all of its territory and invade delve on one day's notice came from having a dictator ceo

i agree, a council govt is much less able to react quickly to unfolding events


You forgot to mention your immense naptrain aswell toot toot!

Manfred Sideous
Amarr
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.07.16 21:58:00 - [69]
 

Nice read

I agree the best entities are always ruled with a iron fist .... well a respected iron fist

Kaaii
Caldari
Kaaii-Net Research Labs
KAAII-NET
Posted - 2009.07.17 00:32:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: VCBee 516
Originally by: Kaaii
Originally by: Machine Delta
Originally by: Das Panzer
Too long, didnt read.
Same rubbish as always Mittens, just more words.
Only thing interesting about this is how many more angles you can squeeze from Bob disband.


A perfect display of ignorance


Don't be so hard on yourself, u mad?

oh and too mittens, not worth the read...



So if you didn't read it why are you here? Just trolling because you dislike certain people so much?

At least other posters here are contributing something.


You of all alliances should be familiar with that....

Laughing

Calindoth
Caldari
the glass eye pub
Posted - 2009.07.17 00:37:00 - [71]
 

tl;dr

*goes back to drinking bud light and watching 'Americas next top model'

Presidio
Minmatar
Phantom Squad
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.07.17 00:52:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Presidio on 17/07/2009 00:56:43

The Mittani
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.07.17 02:00:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Das Panzer
Originally by: The Mittani
goonswarm's ability to abandon all of its territory and invade delve on one day's notice came from having a dictator ceo

i agree, a council govt is much less able to react quickly to unfolding events


You forgot to mention your immense naptrain aswell toot toot!


its not hard to be better at diplomacy than people like sirmolle or evil thug vOv

Zumbala
Gallente
ICE is Coming to EVE
Not Found.
Posted - 2009.07.17 02:08:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Zumbala on 17/07/2009 09:35:45
Originally by: The Mittani

democracy never works in 0.0, ever
alliances burdened with 'councils' explode much faster than those without

That is not exactly true.
My corp is a pure democraty, and it works actually quite well.
The main issue with democracy, is that a lot of people misunderstand democraty. Democraty is juste the fact to put a dictator in charge, choosen by the guy in the corp.

A lot of people beleive democraty allow anybody to take any decision or do whatever they want, but this is untrue. This as never existed, I don't understand why it should exist in a video game.

Edit:
Originally by: The Mittani
goonswarm's ability to abandon all of its territory and invade delve on one day's notice came from having a dictator ceo

i agree, a council govt is much less able to react quickly to unfolding events

Yes. But if your CEO is elected, you have to trust him him anyway, if you repected democraty. An elected CEO should be allowed to take important decisions by himself in case of emergency.
Once again, democraty mean having an elcted CEO / directors, it does not mean having a powerless leadership.

Sanitarium Slave
Minmatar
Happy little Hug Factory
Posted - 2009.07.17 02:25:00 - [75]
 

i've always been more kind to dictorships than "democratic", i guess this clears it up a bit more.

Talon Scorpio
Caldari
Versatech Co.
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2009.07.17 03:07:00 - [76]
 

The Mittani *names have Power, everyone knows that* , we find in you the shades of both William and Henry James.
I am very nearly willing to wish upon you the same disease of mind suffered by both gentlemen, but I expect everyone has dark moments at 3AM.

Add to the worthless undergraduate Psychology degree those of English, Religion, Philosophy and MFA's from self important Writer's Workshops. The pride of Cheever, no less, and life in all of it's tedious minutiae, so eventually breaks a heart, etc etc etc.

Anyway, I was bored and did not avert my gaze from the ****ograpy you wrote. It appears your pleasure was not so sublime, indeed the contrary.

I think that within any situation when one gives over control on a mental/emotional/psychological level, ie, identifcation of self with an outside entity, learned helplessness does develop. The certain requirement in the arena of EVE, is that there then has to be the retention of strong leadership that acts with intent and direction.
Leadership gets tired, it burns out, it fails to evolve to changes, it gets lazy, it forgets that demands for obedience are paid for by the coin of co-dependence.

It is a known phenomena that chronic low level pain can induce an awareness of one’s helplessness, followed by frustration, depression.. Suicide.

Bathos slips silently in the cacophony of Pathos and such entertainments as we had the last few months ensues.

Boredom, such a slippery slope.




Presidio
Minmatar
Phantom Squad
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.07.17 03:22:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Presidio on 17/07/2009 03:43:10
I get a certain thrill from being in an alliance faced with impossible odds. Also I have always been someone who likes to be on the side of the underdog. The drama that ensues is interesting and the victories you get in such situations are that much sweeter. What's the thrill in beating someone you vastly outnumber?

So far the best gaming experience I've ever had is when BoB and about 5 other alliances proceeded to decimate PA (in 2004). GODS the corp I was in was the only corporation in the alliance who actually grew in numbers. And even though most of the alliance was hemorrhaging members and entire corps like crazy, we were doing fine internally.

So I would say it's about players expectations and the general understanding of the situation. We knew we had no way of winning when faced with the odds we were faced with but we wanted to see how long we would last and how much fun we could get out of the situation. Surprisingly we and a few other corps lasted 9 months like this until we left. All the guys I still talk to have fond memories of the whole experience.

Meanwhile BoB used all the tricks in the book on us. Way before anyone else in the game knew to call their bluffs. No one really understood BoB at that point, how could they? BoB was formed in that war. Propaganda warfare was fairly new at that time.

edit: typos

BiaXia
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.07.17 03:39:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Talon Scorpio
The Mittani *names have Power, everyone knows that* , we find in you the shades of both William and Henry James.
I am very nearly willing to wish upon you the same disease of mind suffered by both gentlemen, but I expect everyone has dark moments at 3AM.

Add to the worthless undergraduate Psychology degree those of English, Religion, Philosophy and MFA's from self important Writer's Workshops. The pride of Cheever, no less, and life in all of it's tedious minutiae, so eventually breaks a heart, etc etc etc.

Anyway, I was bored and did not avert my gaze from the ****ograpy you wrote. It appears your pleasure was not so sublime, indeed the contrary.

I think that within any situation when one gives over control on a mental/emotional/psychological level, ie, identifcation of self with an outside entity, learned helplessness does develop. The certain requirement in the arena of EVE, is that there then has to be the retention of strong leadership that acts with intent and direction.
Leadership gets tired, it burns out, it fails to evolve to changes, it gets lazy, it forgets that demands for obedience are paid for by the coin of co-dependence.

It is a known phenomena that chronic low level pain can induce an awareness of one’s helplessness, followed by frustration, depression.. Suicide.

Bathos slips silently in the cacophony of Pathos and such entertainments as we had the last few months ensues.

Boredom, such a slippery slope.






I guess you can add forum ghostwriting to the list of services Jade Constantine provides.

Talon Scorpio
Caldari
Versatech Co.
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2009.07.17 04:15:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Talon Scorpio on 17/07/2009 04:20:43



Originally by: BiaXia

I guess you can add forum ghostwriting to the list of services Jade Constantine provides.


Do you actually have anything relevant to say?



I didn't think so.


nice bio, btw, very harlequin

Stahlregen
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.07.17 05:21:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Talon Scorpio

Do you actually have anything relevant to say?


Posting in COAD is restricted to members of space holding alliances and organisations.

SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar
Aperture Science inc.
Posted - 2009.07.17 06:10:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: SFX Bladerunner on 17/07/2009 06:12:27
Originally by: Talon Scorpio

It is a known phenomena that chronic low level pain can induce an awareness of one’s helplessness, followed by frustration, depression.. Suicide.



chronic constant low level pain, or atleast in the form of physical pain (but I believe the same goes for psychological pain) over the course of time makes one immune to that pain.

In the same way that after wearing a hat for a prolonged period of time eventually makes it so you don't even notice/feel that you are wearing the hat anymore.

So I do not agree with that statement of yours or atleast not with the way you worded it.

The whole 'human perception' is based upon change, not continuality.

If you got the same hostile roaming gang roaming into your territory day in day out at the exact same time you will eventually adapt to that and it will not phase you anymore.

Market Ruler
Gallente
Polaris Tech Inc.
Dignitas.
Posted - 2009.07.17 08:14:00 - [82]
 

It's like me having stage 5 cancer and getting hit by a bus that turned off the road b/c the driver had a heart attack. But actually, the bus would have turned 3 feet to my left if the mechanic had put proper alignment on the wheels. What's more is I was only walking down that road because I was on the way to see my doctor about the cancer. Well the bus killed me, but only because the driver died and the mechanic was a ****** and because I had to go see my doctor about cancer. But I was Dieing already so did it really matter in the end result?

Dante Algermain
Gallente
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.07.17 09:20:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
goonswarm's ability to abandon all of its territory and invade delve on one day's notice came from having a dictator ceo

i agree, a council govt is much less able to react quickly to unfolding events


Does this mean the the failscade is a possibility (at some future date) now that just over 50% of the membership of GS is not in goonfleet?

Havohej
Minmatar
Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
Posted - 2009.07.17 09:52:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Reprimander
i do not approve of the lack of '~' in the OP

~


No excessive tildes in srs post k?

BiaXia
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.07.17 12:16:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Talon Scorpio
Edited by: Talon Scorpio on 17/07/2009 04:20:43



Originally by: BiaXia

I guess you can add forum ghostwriting to the list of services Jade Constantine provides.


Do you actually have anything relevant to say?



I didn't think so.



Does your corp do anything relevant outside of camp gates in empire?



I didn't think so.
Quote:

nice bio, btw, very harlequin


yeah it's a good piece of fanfiction. Would be better if Vio took me and showed me just how much of a man he could be, but alas, it was not meant to be.

Talon Scorpio
Caldari
Versatech Co.
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2009.07.17 12:35:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: SFX Bladerunner
Edited by: SFX Bladerunner on 17/07/2009 06:12:27
Originally by: Talon Scorpio

It is a known phenomena that chronic low level pain can induce an awareness of one’s helplessness, followed by frustration, depression.. Suicide.



chronic constant low level pain, or atleast in the form of physical pain (but I believe the same goes for psychological pain) over the course of time makes one immune to that pain.

In the same way that after wearing a hat for a prolonged period of time eventually makes it so you don't even notice/feel that you are wearing the hat anymore.

So I do not agree with that statement of yours or atleast not with the way you worded it.

The whole 'human perception' is based upon change, not continuality.

If you got the same hostile roaming gang roaming into your territory day in day out at the exact same time you will eventually adapt to that and it will not phase you anymore.


It depends on how the "pain" is coped with. Examples of whole alliances that end up camped into stations by a few persistent lurkers in local are prevalent.

Bia only one nubs I know of was camping gates in empire. We laughed at him too.

Nought Prymary
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.07.17 12:59:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Talon Scorpio

It depends on how the "pain" is coped with. Examples of whole alliances that end up camped into stations by a few persistent lurkers in local are prevalent.


You all should listen to Talon Scorpio on this subject. Having been in both Rise and Kenny, and probably having lots of old corp friends in Skunk-Works, Aggressiondot, and numerous Kenny pets, Talon can tell us with much first-hand experience "How Alliances Die."

Talon Scorpio
Caldari
Versatech Co.
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2009.07.17 13:06:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Nought Prymary
Originally by: Talon Scorpio

It depends on how the "pain" is coped with. Examples of whole alliances that end up camped into stations by a few persistent lurkers in local are prevalent.


You all should listen to Talon Scorpio on this subject. Having been in both Rise and Kenny, and probably having lots of old corp friends in Skunk-Works, Aggressiondot, and numerous Kenny pets, Talon can tell us with much first-hand experience "How Alliances Die."


That's right, I have always been the common element. I also killed Red Alliance. Just ask Bapp.

Next.

Kayosoni
Caldari
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.07.17 17:40:00 - [89]
 

The reason alliances die is because better games come out. Like Aion.

Stahlregen
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.07.17 17:49:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Stahlregen on 17/07/2009 17:49:54
Originally by: Kayosoni
better games come out. Like Aion.



HahahahhahahahaHAHAHUELELELLELEAIKSBDASDJASDKASD

Yeah, enjoy your typical-korean-grind-fest-lineage-clone.

edit:
Quote:

Kayosoni
Caldari
Destructive Influence



I get a bit of a semi reading that.




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