open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked Advanced combat probing guide: A clever use of the directional scanner
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic

Linda Duane
Gallente
Bluestar Enterprises
Posted - 2009.07.15 20:45:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Linda Duane on 15/07/2009 20:53:40
nvm

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2009.07.15 20:53:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Kaylan Jahlar
  • Step 11: Drag your probes in that direction, and use the range spheres of the probes themselves as a sort of ruler to set the proper distance from your ship. (i.e. if range was 3 AU, use a probe you set to 1 AU and one to 2 AU, and line their spheres up one after the other, then drop a 3rd probe on the edge of the last probe's sphere).


You can do this easier with the tactical overview.. which also works in solar map view.. has even AU as units.

Nice guide though and CCP should do something about this intel-mess, which is called scanner/overview/local..

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2009.07.15 20:55:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Tres Farmer
Originally by: Kaylan Jahlar
  • Step 11: Drag your probes in that direction, and use the range spheres of the probes themselves as a sort of ruler to set the proper distance from your ship. (i.e. if range was 3 AU, use a probe you set to 1 AU and one to 2 AU, and line their spheres up one after the other, then drop a 3rd probe on the edge of the last probe's sphere).


You can do this easier with the tactical overview.. which also works in solar map view.. has even AU as units.

Nice guide though and CCP should do something about this intel-mess, which is called scanner/overview/local..


Good call about using the tactical overview while in the system map. I use this all the time to get very accurate probe placement. Works very well.

Constable Chang
Amarr
The Restorian Movement
Posted - 2009.07.15 22:49:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Constable Chang on 15/07/2009 22:52:10
Originally by: Kaylan Jahlar

It's not an exploit, it's just very clever use of the available tools.
ready to start scanning in this system.[/*]



Saying that something is not an exploit in an MMO is actually fairly hard.

Often an MMO company will declare something which most people would consider "working smarter, not harder" to be an exploit.

Blizzard do it, CCP do it.

Just because you are not taking advantage of a bug does not mean that the company won't consider it an 'exploit'.

They will often consider "using existing methods in ways which we didn't anticipate" to be an exploit.

For example, deleting a character that has a low security rating. Thats been officially declared an exploit by CCP.

In other words; "Its not not an exploit till the fat lady sings"

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.07.15 23:01:00 - [35]
 

Quote:
Just because you are not taking advantage of a bug does not mean that the company won't consider it an 'exploit'.
The company is not always right. They may declare something an exploit, but it doesn't mean it's an actual exploit. There has to be solid reasoning to back up a statement, not simple authoritarianism.

Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
Posted - 2009.07.15 23:09:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Kaylan Jahlar
  • Step 10: Now, it's a bit tricky to do right, but you have to look at the scan vector of your ship in the minimap browser to see which way you were pointing at, and locate that vector on the Solar System map the best you can.



  • When you open the solar system map, you are always looking in the same direction as you were when your camera is in space. The same is true when closing the map. Your in-space camera will be facing the exact direction the solar system map's camera was facing.

    Constable Chang
    Amarr
    The Restorian Movement
    Posted - 2009.07.15 23:27:00 - [37]
     

    Originally by: Ephemeron
    Quote:
    Just because you are not taking advantage of a bug does not mean that the company won't consider it an 'exploit'.
    The company is not always right. They may declare something an exploit, but it doesn't mean it's an actual exploit. There has to be solid reasoning to back up a statement, not simple authoritarianism.


    Sadly you are wrong. I wish you were right.

    CCP is, in effect, the sovereign power in this game world and effectively have sovereign immunity etc.

    They can, and do, make the laws up as they go.

    We the players have only one recourse in event that something which we had thought innocuous is declared an 'exploit' and thats to cancel ones subscription.

    Only very rarely do MMO companies engage in dialog with users who are declared to be 'exploiting'.

    MMO companies are essentially authoritarian, totalitarian regimes.

    This is a massive turnaround of the use of the word 'exploit' as it no longer applies to 'taking advantage of bugs', it is now used to refer to pretty much anything that the MMO company did not foresee.

    RuleoftheBone
    Minmatar
    Black Viper Nomads
    Posted - 2009.07.16 00:56:00 - [38]
     

    You can skip the minimap step by simply noting celestials (if any) visible in the camera view prior to F10 toggle to probe map once the target is isolated to 5/15 degrees and approx range noted.

    The minimap thing will also not display variance due to being well off (above/below) the system plane (as many missions are) but does show up fine in the probe display map allowing for easy probe placement.

    Just FYI...good covops/probe users have always used this to isolate a target prior to pooping out probes.

    Further FYI...I like to shift my probes out of target scan range where possible so they are ready for the inevitable logoffski (fix the friggin recalled probe unstack thing already CCP whydontcha) and I don't have to decloak again.

    Nicely written guide.

    p.s. Stick a 24k on your Cheetah...go on..man up! If you train to Covops V you can ditch the co-pro too. And OD injectors/nanofibers will improve your cloaked speed to significantly better levels not to mention when you need to use the AB. And I-stabs=ballon sig radius...not nice should you decide to tackle with the thing!

    Kaylan Jahlar
    Brutor Tribe
    Posted - 2009.07.16 01:25:00 - [39]
     

    Edited by: Kaylan Jahlar on 16/07/2009 02:20:40
    Originally by: Guillame Herschel
    Originally by: Kaylan Jahlar
  • Step 10: Now, it's a bit tricky to do right, but you have to look at the scan vector of your ship in the minimap browser to see which way you were pointing at, and locate that vector on the Solar System map the best you can.



  • When you open the solar system map, you are always looking in the same direction as you were when your camera is in space. The same is true when closing the map. Your in-space camera will be facing the exact direction the solar system map's camera was facing.


    I'll have to test this again then, cause I was under the impression that my solar system map always re-opened the way I last closed it.

    EDIT: I just tested it, and the camera is NOT following when I switch to the solar system map. No matter where I look while I'm in space, the solar system map will always be exactly the same way I left it before I last closed it. Same alignment, same zoom, same direction.

    Am I doing something wrong?

    Vistilantus
    Caldari
    Vitriol Ventures
    BLACK-MARK
    Posted - 2009.07.16 08:11:00 - [40]
     

    No, that's how the solarsystem map now "works" it used to open up in the exact same direction you were facing but got nerfed/fixed/broke somewhere between apoc 1 and now.

    P.s - thanks for the guide, i used most of the techniques before but has opened my eyes to some things i had overlooked.

    Shinnen
    Caldari
    Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
    The 0rphanage
    Posted - 2009.07.16 12:34:00 - [41]
     

    Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
    Get good with teh scanner first.

    Its the biggest PVP tool available because more likely than not, your target is already at a warpable place (belt, moon, station) and you just need to find where. With the scanner, you can find out in little to no time.

    So, before you even launch probes, see if you can find the sucker with yoru scanner. If he's at a safe, THEN launch probes.


    This. But a lot of people forget that...

    So in fact one of the BEST ways to avoid being probed is just to warp between celestials. Occams razor in action.

    Louis deGuerre
    Gallente
    Malevolence.
    Posted - 2009.07.16 13:02:00 - [42]
     

    As a covop pilot training himself I find this extremely usefull and confusing at the same time Shocked. Many thanks Razz.

    CCP Eris Discordia

    Posted - 2009.07.16 13:26:00 - [43]
     

    Oi, nice guide indeed and you should place it on evelopedia asap Smile

    Roemy Schneider
    Vanishing Point.
    Posted - 2009.07.16 13:27:00 - [44]
     

    could we get rid of the implication, that this meager 40-50% bonus of a covert ops is actually necessary, pl0x?


    'cause currently there's a few one-liners that **** me off royally:

    1a) "nah i can't probe, i don't have a cov ops (alt)"
    1b) "who here can probe?! someone get a cov ops! there's an apoc logged with aggro... ... ... we can't kill it we don't have a prober" - dude... all the launcher needs is astrometrics II and 220 cpu

    2) "wtf roemy, don't waste high slots on the scimitar! stop probing and get more shield transporters" (sure... me and what powergrid...? :o)"


    [Vagabond, New Setup 4]
    Nanofiber Internal Structure II
    Nanofiber Internal Structure II
    Nanofiber Internal Structure II
    Signal Amplifier II
    Signal Amplifier II

    10MN MicroWarpdrive I
    Warp Disruptor II
    Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
    Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

    Expanded Probe Launcher I, Combat Scanner Probe I
    Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
    Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
    Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
    Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
    Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M

    Projectile Ambit Extension I
    Projectile Ambit Extension I


    Hornet EC-300 x5

    iudex
    Posted - 2009.07.16 14:02:00 - [45]
     

    Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
    Nice job Kaylan! Might I suggest you also post this on the EVElopedia? This is a good guide for it.


    It's interesting to see how you Devs change the probing in a way so that mission-runners can be found faster and safer than before and appreciate, if players find a way to do it even faster and without giving any warning to the mission-runners.
    And then you wonder why everyone is doing missions in highsec and hardly anyone comes out to lowsec or 0.0 for doing missions there.

    While this might be nice for some pirates in the short term, they'll soon run out of that specific mission-runner targets (which is already the case mostly, after you removed the deadspace effect on probing), since every mission-runner moved back to highsec. At the end you have frustrated the lowsec/0.0 mission-runners and the lowsec/0.0 anti-mission-runners without any advantage. Please think one step ahead and take the long-term effect of certain features into account.

    @OP: thanks for sharing your knowledge. At least i now know how i lost my ship in a 0.0 mission-spot, without having that typical combat probes approaching on my directional scanner, which usually can be observed and which serves as a warning.

    Tres Farmer
    Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
    Posted - 2009.07.16 17:37:00 - [46]
     

    Well.. at least this is a post where they get warned.. and scanning with directional scanner for probes is dumb now..

    If you can't stay aligned out, where you are, so that you can warp out in case a ship shows up on scan (if it shows up at all - talk about w-space and force recons as tacklers.. no deadspace behavior of those sites there either, you can warp direct on top of the target).

    Sad sad sad for Soloplayers and small gangs..

    Ephemeron
    Caldari Provisions
    Posted - 2009.07.16 17:46:00 - [47]
     

    Originally by: Tres Farmer
    Sad sad sad for Soloplayers and small gangs..
    As a long time solo / small gang player, I can say these scanning features don't effect gameplay negatively.

    It works both ways. And as solo player, you pretty much have to fit a cloak anyways if you want to survive gank squads, especially since speed tactics were greatly nerfed.

    Santiago Fahahrri
    Gallente
    Galactic Geographic
    Posted - 2009.07.16 17:51:00 - [48]
     

    Originally by: Ephemeron
    Originally by: Tres Farmer
    Sad sad sad for Soloplayers and small gangs..
    As a long time solo / small gang player, I can say these scanning features don't effect gameplay negatively.

    It works both ways. And as solo player, you pretty much have to fit a cloak anyways if you want to survive gank squads, especially since speed tactics were greatly nerfed.


    As a member of a small corp (lots of solo and small gang time) I agree with Ephermeron that this is no big balance problem. Tactics alaways work both ways.

    Hobgoblin ll
    Posted - 2009.07.16 19:17:00 - [49]
     

    confirmed, i'm a solo player too (i play the market in jita solo) and i'm not affected

    Amitious Turkey
    Gallente
    TarNec
    Posted - 2009.07.16 20:33:00 - [50]
     

    Originally by: Gypsio III
    Edited by: Gypsio III on 15/07/2009 17:26:24

    Originally by: Kaylan Jahlar
    Yup, most new players I know never used the directional scanner in that manner (me first). There was no mention of this technique anywhere in the known EVElopedia, EVE Wiki or ingame tutorials, and I haven't seen any other guide explaining it in that much details. Unless someone learned this from another experienced corp member, or found it out on his own, there was no obvious way to learn this.


    I understand what you're trying to say. But people learn how to use the directional scanner before they learn how to probe - knowledge of the directional scanner is one of the absolutely fundamental, essential skills in the game. So by the time a player gets to probing, he knows how to use the directional scanner, and the insight required to figure out how to use the scanner to assist probing is almost nonexistent.


    Um, I must have been playing the game wrong for the past 6 years then...I only barely know the DS exists, and I doubt new players can find it except by accident :/

    Ive been into probing recently. I like the guide.

    Kiri Serrensun
    Posted - 2009.07.16 22:05:00 - [51]
     

    Originally by: Constable Chang

    Just because you are not taking advantage of a bug does not mean that the company won't consider it an 'exploit'.


    Well, if we've got CCP folk posting, I think you're safe for now.

    Evading pursuit could be quite an exciting thing to do, it's a bit sad to see it get more one-dimensional as the countermeasures come down to "stay aligned, fight long-range" or "safespot and cloak till Local empties".

    Megan Maynard
    Minmatar
    Navigators of the Abyss
    Posted - 2009.07.16 22:22:00 - [52]
     

    MUCH easier ways of doing this.

    Knowing where the target is certainly helps, but using a pattern with the probes (which i'll keep to myself thank you.) works much more efficiently then just blobbing them at the correct range.

    I frequently use pattern techniques to find people in less then a min if I can't see them, and in 10 seconds if I know where they are at. (Well duh on that last one.)

    But using the scanner is def numero uno.


    Aesheera
    Amarr
    PWNED FACTOR HOLDINGS
    Posted - 2009.07.16 23:01:00 - [53]
     

    Originally by: Megan Maynard
    MUCH easier ways of doing this.

    Knowing where the target is certainly helps, but using a pattern with the probes (which i'll keep to myself thank you.) works much more efficiently then just blobbing them at the correct range.


    Originally by: Kaylan Jahlar
    EVE Online has a very high learning curve, but sometimes all it takes is a little nudge from more experienced players to make it lower. Unfortunately, a lot of veteran players seem to think that this nudge should be "earned" somehow, and keep advanced techniques inside their "elite" circle as if newer players were too stupid or unworthy to know them.

    Shame.
    A potentially valued contribution to a solid post could have been made but i guess youre one of the people who like to keep their techniques inside "their circle".

    Killiashandra Ree
    Dead Parrot Merc Corps.
    Posted - 2009.07.16 23:29:00 - [54]
     

    Very nice guide, and explains an unexpected gank..uhh well I guess most ganks are unexpectedLaughing.

    To the vet elitist who don't like their techniques publicized, eve doesn't have a hard learning curve at all, or even that much depth, but it does have a complete lack of meaningful documentation. and I'm not talking about the players having to write the stuff up in wikis the devs are too slack to.

    Got all my probe skills to level 4 and some to 5 before I even discovered the DS existed (aside of slapping the system scan button a couple of times waiting 30 secs for the display to remain completely unchanged).

    top work op, ignore the H8ers. (and free bumpage, everyone needs to know the DS is effectively broken as a tool to look out for incoming probers)

    Kaylan Jahlar
    Brutor Tribe
    Posted - 2009.07.17 17:43:00 - [55]
     

    Edited by: Kaylan Jahlar on 17/07/2009 17:43:37
    Originally by: Megan Maynard
    MUCH easier ways of doing this.

    Knowing where the target is certainly helps, but using a pattern with the probes (which i'll keep to myself thank you.) works much more efficiently then just blobbing them at the correct range.

    I frequently use pattern techniques to find people in less then a min if I can't see them, and in 10 seconds if I know where they are at. (Well duh on that last one.)

    But using the scanner is def numero uno.



    This is exactly what I was talking about. It's sad that some people wishes to keep techniques a secret just so they can be the only ones who uses them. Grow some balls and share it already!

    Dillon Arklight
    Aliastra
    Posted - 2009.07.18 11:20:00 - [56]
     

    Very nice guide Kaylan.

    Dav Varan
    Posted - 2009.07.31 14:13:00 - [57]
     

    Nice Guide.

    I have never used the mini-map or tactical overlay in map mode.
    Will be checking this out asap.

    Would like to add the following.
    Once you have the target to 15 or 5% untick the "use overview options on the dscanner" , doing this will enable you to see any wrecks.

    Helps to work out if the target is in a mission and activelly ratting and what hardeners he is likely to be using.

    Not strictley probing , but more info is usually good.

    Also if target is within 5au I like to use the built in scanner just in case there in a anomoly rather than a mission. no probes to spot at any point if thats the case.

    Taram Caldar
    Royal Black Watch Highlanders
    Warped Aggression
    Posted - 2009.07.31 14:57:00 - [58]
     

    Very nice guide. As someone who's not novice to probing but certainly hasn't mastered the current probing system (what can I say, I don't probe much for anything but cosmic stuff) I found it pretty well written. I've already sort of played with the techniques but picked up a few nice tips from within the thread. Never thought to use the tactical overlay in map mode b4!

    TBH though I still miss the old system :)

    Hyveres
    Caldari
    Resilience.
    Northern Coalition.
    Posted - 2009.07.31 15:04:00 - [59]
     

    Originally by: Kaylan Jahlar
    Edited by: Kaylan Jahlar on 17/07/2009 17:43:37
    Originally by: Megan Maynard
    MUCH easier ways of doing this.

    Knowing where the target is certainly helps, but using a pattern with the probes (which i'll keep to myself thank you.) works much more efficiently then just blobbing them at the correct range.

    I frequently use pattern techniques to find people in less then a min if I can't see them, and in 10 seconds if I know where they are at. (Well duh on that last one.)

    But using the scanner is def numero uno.



    This is exactly what I was talking about. It's sad that some people wishes to keep techniques a secret just so they can be the only ones who uses them. Grow some balls and share it already!
    Well as a wormhole living pilot who are among the faster ones when it comes to fully scanning down systems.
    Why should I share my techniques and make my competition more effective?

    Its based on simple triangulation principles and min/maxing number of scans, anyone who has worked with maps would know how to do this anyway.

    Vaneshi SnowCrash
    Posted - 2009.08.01 01:28:00 - [60]
     

    Originally by: Hyveres
    Originally by: Kaylan Jahlar
    Edited by: Kaylan Jahlar on 17/07/2009 17:43:37
    Originally by: Megan Maynard
    MUCH easier ways of doing this.

    Knowing where the target is certainly helps, but using a pattern with the probes (which i'll keep to myself thank you.) works much more efficiently then just blobbing them at the correct range.

    I frequently use pattern techniques to find people in less then a min if I can't see them, and in 10 seconds if I know where they are at. (Well duh on that last one.)

    But using the scanner is def numero uno.



    This is exactly what I was talking about. It's sad that some people wishes to keep techniques a secret just so they can be the only ones who uses them. Grow some balls and share it already!
    Well as a wormhole living pilot who are among the faster ones when it comes to fully scanning down systems.
    Why should I share my techniques and make my competition more effective?

    Its based on simple triangulation principles and min/maxing number of scans, anyone who has worked with maps would know how to do this anyway.


    Are you? How do we know this?
    Money where mouth is.


    Pages: 1 [2]

    This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


     


    The new forums are live

    Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

    These forums are archived and read-only