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insidion
Caldari
Octavian Vanguard
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.07.21 18:48:00 - [61]
 

I have to admit, I've read this a few times and I'm sure that I'm not the only one not getting this. Is this somehow implying that by placing a bunch of ECCM on your ship, which improves your sensor strength, you are somehow making yourself immune to being probed? Or even more bizarre, that this is somehow affecting your sig radius? Even if somehow (seemingly impossibly) this were true, surely this is a bug?

Don't make me do some testing =P

Davinel Lulinvega
Posted - 2009.07.21 19:27:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: insidion
I have to admit, I've read this a few times and I'm sure that I'm not the only one not getting this. Is this somehow implying that by placing a bunch of ECCM on your ship, which improves your sensor strength, you are somehow making yourself immune to being probed? Or even more bizarre, that this is somehow affecting your sig radius? Even if somehow (seemingly impossibly) this were true, surely this is a bug?

Don't make me do some testing =P
It doesn't have to make sense. CCP for whatever reason made sensor strength part of the signal strength calculation. ECCM have no effect on your sig radius, that discussion is from the skirmish link which actually does decrease your sig.

Jus Lookin
Posted - 2009.07.22 05:26:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: insidion
I have to admit, I've read this a few times and I'm sure that I'm not the only one not getting this. Is this somehow implying that by placing a bunch of ECCM on your ship, which improves your sensor strength, you are somehow making yourself immune to being probed? Or even more bizarre, that this is somehow affecting your sig radius? Even if somehow (seemingly impossibly) this were true, surely this is a bug?

Don't make me do some testing =P


To make it really simple:

The chance to get a hit from a probe is not just dependant on the prober's skill and the size of the target. The sensor strength of the target is also used.

The more complex version: If you can fudge your ship's signature radius down, and the sensor strength up, both of them so far that the sensor strength becomes GREATER than the signature radius, then your ship is able to hide itself from probing.

I like this ability, as it is somewhat similar to ECCM on real ships, but modified to fit an artificial environment.

So far this ability has been a non-issue in game, because the number of modules needed to do this make your ship useless for any other purpose. (Although there is a possibility to use a Claymore with an alt to cloak your battleship, as I yapped about above, that takes a LOT of training time, and so far no-one that I know of has bothered training all of the relevant skills, in the future this may change. I can't see ccp disliking this change either, cause it means single account players have to stay in high sec for missioning, but those that choose to pay $30 a month can mission in low sec. Seems like a solid budgeting decision to me, and since the low sec players can still get gate ganked and knocked off of stations, ccp can claim that the extra risk involved makes it all fair.)

At issue is the new 75% sensor strength implants, which will open up several new combinations of ships that might become unprobable. Possibly carriers. Several people were trying to make an unprobable carrier on the test server, but having a difficult time with the testing due to noone in the game training to fly the EOS after it had its guts nerfed out by ccp. Since the EOS used to be the best (only really fun fleet support ship to fly, the rest sucked), and now it is the worst (the rest still suck, just the EOS sucks more), I find it humorous that excessive nerf bat usage in place of slow, small, carefully thought out and deliberate changes are stopping people from even testing new features. Or maybe I am just bitter.

Anyways, you can test it yourself pretty easy. Take any ship you like, gang up with someone that has good leadership skills (that reduce your sig radius and/or enhance your sensor strength) and fill all your mids with tech 2 ECCM. If your sensor strength > sig radius, you are non-probable, but your ship now sucks. If your sig radius is still bigger, you need to get a better gang leader, or a smaller ratio ship, or stay in high sec.

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2009.07.22 12:50:00 - [64]
 

Carriers are harder than I thought. It turns out that the sensor strength warfare link shares a stacking penalty with ECCM effects, making the gang bonus virtually non-existent once there are 5 ECCM projectors acting on your ship. The new implants operate at full effect.

It's still possible in a very marginal case - Ragnarok pilot with Titan V and strong X-Instinct boosters for the carrier pilot - but this isn't worth the bother, and the titan pilot can be probed down.


Jus Lookin
Posted - 2009.07.22 16:09:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Jus Lookin on 22/07/2009 16:48:36
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Carriers are harder than I thought. It turns out that the sensor strength warfare link shares a stacking penalty with ECCM effects, making the gang bonus virtually non-existent once there are 5 ECCM projectors acting on your ship. The new implants operate at full effect.

It's still possible in a very marginal case - Ragnarok pilot with Titan V and strong X-Instinct boosters for the carrier pilot - but this isn't worth the bother, and the titan pilot can be probed down.




Edit: the spreadsheet still needs updated, but it is the EOS that is affected, not the Claymore, so I am good. And the EOS is even worse then it was before...
Hmm, that sucks. Would you mind changing your spreadsheet to reflect that? I need to rerun my numbers now and see if I can still get the Claymore and Raven hidden, lol.

Neacail
Posted - 2009.07.22 17:41:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Jus Lookin
Edited by: Jus Lookin on 22/07/2009 16:48:36
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Carriers are harder than I thought. It turns out that the sensor strength warfare link shares a stacking penalty with ECCM effects, making the gang bonus virtually non-existent once there are 5 ECCM projectors acting on your ship. The new implants operate at full effect.

It's still possible in a very marginal case - Ragnarok pilot with Titan V and strong X-Instinct boosters for the carrier pilot - but this isn't worth the bother, and the titan pilot can be probed down.




Edit: the spreadsheet still needs updated, but it is the EOS that is affected, not the Claymore, so I am good. And the EOS is even worse then it was before...
Hmm, that sucks. Would you mind changing your spreadsheet to reflect that? I need to rerun my numbers now and see if I can still get the Claymore and Raven hidden, lol.

One major flaw with your plan on running missions in low sec undetectable: Every time you go through an acc gate, you will lose the projected ECCM and be scannable again. Someone who really wants to find you, and knows you're doing this, will just keep scanning non-stop until they get a 100% hit. Some good probers will also, as mentioned, scan you down before you hit the first acc gate.

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2009.07.22 22:04:00 - [67]
 

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/KzIg/probe_immunity_v3.zip

Stacking now matches in-game behaviour, implant section neatened, x-instinct booster effects added.

Jus Lookin
Posted - 2009.07.23 07:11:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Jus Lookin on 23/07/2009 07:28:56
Edited by: Jus Lookin on 23/07/2009 07:11:29
Originally by: Neacail
Originally by: Jus Lookin
Edited by: Jus Lookin on 22/07/2009 16:48:36
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Carriers are harder than I thought. It turns out that the sensor strength warfare link shares a stacking penalty with ECCM effects, making the gang bonus virtually non-existent once there are 5 ECCM projectors acting on your ship. The new implants operate at full effect.

It's still possible in a very marginal case - Ragnarok pilot with Titan V and strong X-Instinct boosters for the carrier pilot - but this isn't worth the bother, and the titan pilot can be probed down.




Edit: the spreadsheet still needs updated, but it is the EOS that is affected, not the Claymore, so I am good. And the EOS is even worse then it was before...
Hmm, that sucks. Would you mind changing your spreadsheet to reflect that? I need to rerun my numbers now and see if I can still get the Claymore and Raven hidden, lol.

One major flaw with your plan on running missions in low sec undetectable: Every time you go through an acc gate, you will lose the projected ECCM and be scannable again. Someone who really wants to find you, and knows you're doing this, will just keep scanning non-stop until they get a 100% hit. Some good probers will also, as mentioned, scan you down before you hit the first acc gate.


I didn't see this mentioned anywhere. How can they scan me down before I hit the first gate if I am unprobeable?

Edit: Thanks for the updated spreadsheet!

Edit: new zip file broken. Message: Cannot open file: it does not appear to be a valid archive.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2009.07.23 08:04:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Jus Lookin
I didn't see this mentioned anywhere. How can they scan me down before I hit the first gate if I am unprobeable?


The rule of thumb is that if you are uncloaked longer than 3 seconds, you'll be probed down. So if you are on grid with the first gate for longer than 3 seconds, they'll get a warpable hit.

If they get a 100% hit on you while you are anywhere in the deadspace complex, warping to that signature will drop them out of warp at the first gate. The ECCM + Remote ECCM trick will only work when you are not warping around the place, and your two ships will need to stay in close proximity to each other.


Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2009.07.23 08:07:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 23/07/2009 08:08:32
Originally by: Jus Lookin
Edit: new zip file broken. Message: Cannot open file: it does not appear to be a valid archive.


I downloaded it from eve-files and it works for me. Perhaps your download was corrupt? I'm using 7-zip to open it.

v00d003
Posted - 2009.07.23 12:56:00 - [71]
 

good info.....thanks Very Happy

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2009.07.23 17:15:00 - [72]
 

Since I bug-reported the stacking issue a couple of days ago, the report has been marked as 'attached to a defect' and a Senior BH has stated that further QA testing is pending - at present, the intended behaviour is uncertain (i.e. stacking penalties for modules / gang links / implants that affect the same attributes).

MarieFrance Tessier
Posted - 2009.07.24 02:59:00 - [73]
 

Proteus with Dissolution Processor + 3xMag ECCM does this. That's actually pretty impressive. With the new faction implants, 2 ECCM is enough. That's pretty damned close to a useful ship... well, almost.

v00d003
Posted - 2009.07.25 03:25:00 - [74]
 

o/

SheriffFruitfly
Caldari
Posted - 2009.07.27 06:42:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Interesting T3 application of this idea that someone sent me: unscannable bubble-proof probing command ship.

[Tengu, ECCM CS]
Gravimetric Backup Array II
Co-Processor II
Co-Processor II

Command Processor I
Command Processor I
Command Processor I
Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I
Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I
Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I

Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers
Information Warfare Link - Sensor Integrity
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Sisters Combat Scanner Probe I
Siege Warfare Link - Shield Efficiency
Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing

Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I
Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I
[empty rig slot]

Tengu Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer
Tengu Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Tengu Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Defensive - Warfare Processor


Also, forgot about the gang bonus for increasing sensor strength - will add it to the spreadsheet.




When I eft this, I get (target size) = (sig/sens) = (150/129) = 1.163 > 1.08 = (min scannable size)

I made sure to set All Lvl 5, myself as WC, and everything turned on.

Am I missing something, or is this a close-but-no-cigar issue?

alt 11
Posted - 2009.07.27 07:29:00 - [76]
 

I wonder how many lowsec pirates have alts with "all level 5" probing skills and virtue sets though? I'd say not too damn many. You can probably be unprobable to 99% of halfassed mission gankers with less eccm, no? What would it take for an "all level 5" pilot sans virtue set to hit you?

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2009.07.27 14:06:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: SheriffFruitfly
When I eft this, I get (target size) = (sig/sens) = (150/129) = 1.163 > 1.08 = (min scannable size)

I made sure to set All Lvl 5, myself as WC, and everything turned on.

Am I missing something, or is this a close-but-no-cigar issue?


Using EFT 2.10.4, I get 127.5 / 129 < 1.08 - you seem to be missing a sig radius bonus. What do you get if you import the fit above without making any changeS?

Beverly Sparks
Posted - 2009.07.27 14:48:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Beverly Sparks on 27/07/2009 15:01:07
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Hmm, should maybe change topic to "[Guide] How to make your ship generally useless but impossible to probe".


I think it is good information. I know almost nothing about probing, so this helps.

Like he mentions, the uses are there. Bringing one useless ship like a Hyena ( already a a useless ship, but does have small sig radius and high sensor Str) on an alt to hide a useful ship is not useless.

Anyway it is nice to have the mechanics explained.

Babel
Utopian Research I.E.L.
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2009.07.27 16:57:00 - [79]
 

Loki with Dissolution Sequencer and Amplification Node [subsys skills only needed to lvl4] + 2 ECCM = below 1.08

Add Covert Reconfig & Interdiction Nullifier and you have a 5-turret 0.0 missioning ship ... does fine for lvl3s with a decent fit :) .... Just avoid ebil TP'ing Angels and Minnie NPCs.

SheriffFruitfly
Caldari
Posted - 2009.07.28 21:20:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Originally by: SheriffFruitfly
When I eft this, I get (target size) = (sig/sens) = (150/129) = 1.163 > 1.08 = (min scannable size)

I made sure to set All Lvl 5, myself as WC, and everything turned on.

Am I missing something, or is this a close-but-no-cigar issue?


Using EFT 2.10.4, I get 127.5 / 129 < 1.08 - you seem to be missing a sig radius bonus. What do you get if you import the fit above without making any changeS?


My error - had the wrong ganglink in.

Hazel Starr
Krypteia Brotherhood
Posted - 2009.07.28 23:55:00 - [81]
 

Regularly probing and mission running in low-sec, you don't need to get to
the unprobeable state - simply making sure that probes have to be within 2-4AU
of you to possibly get a result is a real advantage to a missioning
ship.

Anyone without a deathwish missioning in low-sec has their directional scanner
running to watch for probes closer than the danger distance as a background activity.

Once you see one - warp out of the mission and never come back (you were aligned
to a station weren't you?)

Otherwise you're going to get a visit from Mr Arazu who'll keep you long enough
for his other friends to turn up and spoil your day.

-- Haze



Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2009.07.29 08:05:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Hazel Starr
Anyone without a deathwish missioning in low-sec has their directional scanner
running to watch for probes closer than the danger distance as a background activity.


Problem is, people can scan you down in such a manner that you have at most a 6-second interval in which the probes will actually be visible on the directional scanner, and checking for them isn't a true background activity - it requires clicking the scan button every 5 seconds or even more.

Even if the probes have to be within directional scanner range to get a hit, they can still spend ages setting up a perfect tetrahedron while the probes are out of directional scanner range, warp probes, scan, and then warp the probes back out again.

Bellac
Posted - 2009.08.04 09:58:00 - [83]
 

After spending time crunching some numbers based on the spread sheet supplied what becomes most clear to me is the imbalance of it all. I am a maxed out covert/scanner pilot and I can be sitting in space in my covert ops and can be found quite easily by someone in a covert ops with sisters probes and launchers relatively easily.

Put me in anything bigger than a tech 1 cruiser and the searching pilot doesnt even need to be in a covert ops to find me easily. OK so CCP want to encourage player interaction and that is fair enough - but there has to be some way for a pilot in space to be hard enough to find that he can run a mission or mine and still have at least 50-50 chance of escape if probed. I dont want an easy life in low sec handed to me on a plate, but it should be very hard for a low skilled player in a cheap frigate to find a high skilled player in a covert ship. At this time it is not the case.

I am sure many players would spend more time in low sec if things were just balanced a little more away from the pirates.

Aus Dog
Posted - 2009.08.06 17:56:00 - [84]
 

Could you boil it down to one sentence for us non perfectionists?

TYCONDEROGA
Amarr
Method of Destruction
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2009.09.06 03:39:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: alt 11
I wonder how many lowsec pirates have alts with "all level 5" probing skills and virtue sets though? I'd say not too damn many. You can probably be unprobable to 99% of halfassed mission gankers with less eccm, no? What would it take for an "all level 5" pilot sans virtue set to hit you?



/Raises Hand...

And alot of my pirate buddies have the exact same kind of alt.

foobarx
Posted - 2009.09.06 05:11:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: alt 11
I wonder how many lowsec pirates have alts with "all level 5" probing skills and virtue sets though? I'd say not too damn many. You can probably be unprobable to 99% of halfassed mission gankers with less eccm, no? What would it take for an "all level 5" pilot sans virtue set to hit you?

The problem is you don't know if this particular pirate might be one of the perfect skill pirates.

I run missions in lowsec nearly every day and haven't been ganked in about 18 months. You really can keep yourself pretty safe with the directional scanner - open it up to max range and dock up if you see probes.

joxter
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.09.07 03:48:00 - [87]
 

so, if I wanted to be hard to find in hisec while missioning (hide from salvagers) just place eccm 2's in all my Domi's mids?

[Dominix, Domi]
Large Armor Repairer II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

ECCM - Magnetometric II
ECCM - Magnetometric II
ECCM - Magnetometric II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Iron Charge L
350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Iron Charge L
350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Iron Charge L
350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Iron Charge L
Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I

Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hammerhead II x5

This gives a ratio of 3.4, meaning that a probing salvager would have to have skill ratio below that to find me or just to get a warpable target? Would this even be a deterrent to salvagers or at least make them probe out an easier target?

(forgive nub questions, been playing a long time but as a diehard carebear have never given any thought to probes)

Lady Aja
Posted - 2009.09.07 16:28:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 23/07/2009 17:15:56
2. Example

A warfare-linked Claymore with max leadership skills & mindlink implant becomes totally immune to probes when fitting 2x ECCM II and targeted with 3x ECCM projector II. If the prober doesn't have an expensive Virtue set, or the pilot has Halo implants, it can drop one module and still be impossible to find


ok lets say what you claim is true on that one...

he is IMPOSSIBLE to probe down.. but his one mate using projected eccm ii's???

ropnes
Posted - 2009.10.13 22:57:00 - [89]
 

I'm curious how much ECCM you need to fit for this to be effective

My Tengu has 205 sig and 35 sensor strength. I can make that close to 70% with an ECCM which I can actually afford to fit but I'm curious if it would make a difference.

NoNah
Posted - 2009.10.13 23:03:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: NoNah on 13/10/2009 23:23:16
Originally by: ropnes
I'm curious how much ECCM you need to fit for this to be effective

My Tengu has 205 sig and 35 sensor strength. I can make that close to 70% with an ECCM which I can actually afford to fit but I'm curious if it would make a difference.


Did you check out the spreadsheet included in op? It pretty much exactly answers your question and any likely follow up question instead of forcing us to do the math for you over and over. ;)

Hell, it even explains how you do it yourself.

Though the proteus setups does make things interesting. Ponder this:

[Proteus, New Setup 1]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Dark Blood Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Dark Blood Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane

ECCM - Magnetometric II
Warp Disruptor II
10MN Afterburner II

Information Warfare Link - Sensor Integrity
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Proteus Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Proteus Offensive - Hybrid Propulsion Armature
Proteus Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Defensive - Warfare Processor


Hammerhead II x5


You will obviously cap out in no time at all, but only one proteus needs to carry the warfare sub and link. With a spur set and x-instinct it's unprobable, yet spits out 600 dps, tanks 600 dps and isn't entirely immobile. Really, most mods can be altered, but it's interesting that an implanted proteus is safe with but one ECCM and implants/boosters.


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