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Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2009.07.13 22:50:00 - [91]
 

I like the idea of the new implants that boost sensor strength, and the new modules! I shall look for them on the market.

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.07.13 22:51:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: LegendaryFrog
Great, now just find someway for pilots in alliances to participate in this feature.


A corporation can hold thousands of players, no need to allow alliances. Your just being lazy.

dalman
TunDraGon
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.07.13 22:59:00 - [93]
 

Please rethink this proposal. Your goals are good, but your chosen path will not lead you there.

What does this proposal actually do?
The only thing this achieves is that you're slashing the price on empire faction ships. Something which absolutely should not be done, considering 1. how much they've gone down in price (remember they were worth 1B prior to tier 3 BSs, and that the EVE population has become much richer since) and 2. the already huge price difference between empire and pirate faction ships.
Oh and ofc, you're upping the price on doing PvP by introducing faction cap charges. You want to encourage PvP by making it more expensive to do PvP?

The only way that this would work, and work good, is if you introduce a second type of loyalty points:
One type of loyalty points (the old ones) that you get from missions, and one new type of points which you only receive in faction warfare PvP.
Then you could introduce that equipment could be bought on the cheap for PvP loyalty points only. That would encourage faction warfare greatly. The current proposal does not, period.

Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
Posted - 2009.07.13 22:59:00 - [94]
 

Edited by: Yakia TovilToba on 13/07/2009 23:09:06
Originally by: BlackHorizon
25 LP per frigate kill means LP way WAY below the 1000 ISK per LP mark for fully insured cheap tier 2 frigates (ie, Atrons, Slashers, Executioners, Condors)

I suggest a tier based LP point value system for T1 frigates to avoid people exploiting this, or just lower the LP per frigate kill to 5 instead of 25. You then index the FW LPs to minerals at around 1000 ISk per LP.




Let's assume that frigate cost you 0 isk to lose. You have an unlimited amount of frigates, no building or hauling time. You lock the frigate with your main, insta-pop it. The alt then docks, which takes ~10 seconds. He has to wait 30 seconds to get into a new ship. He then undocks, which, if you do it right after entering the ship, also takes ~30 seconds. You need another 10 seconds to lock and pop the ship. The procedure takes around 1.5 minutes.
In 1.5 minutes you made 25 lp. At a rate of 2000isk/lp that are 50.000 isk.
In 60 minutes that are 2 million isk, for a concentrated work with 2 accounts. Better buy a bantam and mine veldspar in highsec, you'll make more isk.

Ulstan
Posted - 2009.07.14 01:59:00 - [95]
 

The attention to FW is very much appreciated.

New LP stores is great, getting LP for fighting is great.

The missions still need an overhaul though.

Most of the militia LP items look great...except the caldari navy shield extenders. For the life of me I can't see myself ever wanting to use these.

The drones will oddly be most useful by pirates taking sentry fire and in wormhole space, but at least they are useful.

The thing I'm most worried about is the racial implants that seem designed to make ECM, the only real viable ewar left, rather pointless.

Where are the caldari state ECM jammers that are much more powerful to compensate for this?

At least torpedo users get better target painters, so that's a plus.

Kazekari
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.07.14 02:18:00 - [96]
 

Don't forget the Republic Fleet Stasis Webifier!
^_______________^

isAzmodeus
Low Security Military Excursions
Posted - 2009.07.14 02:46:00 - [97]
 

Have the LP cost also depend on rank. Each rank past level 1 gives someone a 2% discount on LP cost for every item in the FW store. Now having high rank is useful for the pilot, and counteracts the fact that they'll be a much bigger target.

Mr Frog
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.07.14 03:10:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: "CCP Ytterbium"
High-grade navy implant sets (available for all FW militias):

Total set effects: +3 to all character attributes, +75% racial sensor strength

Total set requirements: 121,000 LP, 121m ISK, 5x +3 implants, 1x hardwiring - zainou 'gypsy' KLB-50


BECAUSE OF FALCON

Jus Lookin
Posted - 2009.07.14 03:22:00 - [99]
 

I was kind of hoping to see some new eye candy. I mean, "new" ships, or rather, Navy versions of other ships with different paint schemes as the LP store reward. Why not a Navy Dominix, Navy Scorpion, etc. And if you make them ONLY available in the FW stores, then people have a reason to support their team.

Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.07.14 04:40:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Jus Lookin
I was kind of hoping to see some new eye candy. I mean, "new" ships, or rather, Navy versions of other ships with different paint schemes as the LP store reward. Why not a Navy Dominix, Navy Scorpion, etc. And if you make them ONLY available in the FW stores, then people have a reason to support their team.


You trust CCP to make new faction ships that are worth a damn? You're brave - or stupid, haven't decided which.

Can we get retroactive FW LP? :p

Damar Rocarion
Posted - 2009.07.14 05:15:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: Damar Rocarion on 14/07/2009 05:15:35
Originally by: Furb Killer
Dude look at a plex with one of your friends in it. 80% are condors at least, 10% atrons, 10% other ships. It is just stupid and the entire plexing mechanics have to be changed, include making defensive plexing mean more then setting on the button in t1 frig.


Again, Caldari worked their backsides off to achieve this situation where any progress by gallente plexing requires a gargantuan effort, likely requiring weeks or months, which I doubt many players are willing to take. For example, Microfunks plexed and lived for ages in Hykanima and end result was that no system fell.

If plexes dont start giving LP reward, nothing will change in this department. Of course if they do, then superior numbers will likely start to prevail since what 22nd, CAIN, Cadre, PERVS and few others achieved is nothing less than license to print isk for Caldari militia. However, we did this for no reward and purely for the lols.

If people start to benefit from it later, so be it. I see Caldari militia gettings lots of new people. This hurts Gallente of course but ask yourself, perhaps you could have done something when you had FOOM capping Caldari systems for you.

So to summarise my opinion about original blog: As put out now, it merely makes FW even more stagnant unless something is given out for plexing.

Damar Rocarion
Brigadier General



Lebaneur
Minmatar
Tribal Core
Posted - 2009.07.14 07:03:00 - [102]
 

I hope the dev's mom will come and check the the cleaning job. The "fix" as the blog now describes it, does do the cleaning on the mid floor, but leaves corners full of crap :)

No LP's on plex capture? And no word on the plex DT re-shuffle? No benefits for taking a system?

It seems my 1200 - 1500 captured plexes in the pat year will go totally into waste? With rank 10 I will just be a perfect bait for the enemy, with no other benefit from long hard work. Not even a bonus on LP's.

Might as well start popping friendly Navy just to get it back down (does that even help?)

So, Mom please, make them do the job properly!


Meditril
Posted - 2009.07.14 07:17:00 - [103]
 

The changes look for me like big fun is upcomming. Congratulations and thank you!

Ambo
I've Got Nothing
Posted - 2009.07.14 08:09:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: CCP Ytterbium
Originally by: Antonia Frak
You mean offers only from FW npc corps (example Tribal Liberation Force) or also from all other faction corps in where you have loyalty points (example brutor tribe, sebestior, etc. plus Tribal Lib. Force.)?


Everything listed in the blog will only be available for FW militias, which are only limited to the four following corporations:

* 24th Imperial Crusade
* State Protectorate
* Federal Defence Union
* Tribal Liberation Force

All other corporations will have the same offer requirements as they have now on Tranquility.


That is a massive dissapointment. I've just set up a corp with some friends and we are going to be joining FW once they annoying 7 day wait was over. Why on earth are these rewards not available to player corps taking part in FW?

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.07.14 08:17:00 - [105]
 

so does bob kenny ccp have any other plans what to look at besides boosting FW?

qanatas
Minmatar
Tribal Core
Posted - 2009.07.14 08:45:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Ambo

That is a massive dissapointment. I've just set up a corp with some friends and we are going to be joining FW once they annoying 7 day wait was over. Why on earth are these rewards not available to player corps taking part in FW?


I think you're reading it wrong, the corps listed are the ones giving out lp, and the ones that have a store with these items.

FlameGlow
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.07.14 08:51:00 - [107]
 

WTF!!Who came up with those ideas?
1) No rewards for plexing/capturing systems?
2) No benefit from gaining ranks?
3) Say hello to LP macrofarmers/insurance fraud (find remote system, mass-produce tier 1 frigs with macroed minerals, insure&undock macros, kill them with 1 char in oposing militia, profit!!!)
4) Faction drones - outrageous HP on gallente ships with drone HP bonus, not so hot for everyone else
5) Sensor strength implants? Have you not nerfed ECM enough already?!!
6) Damn useless faction stuff: energy transfer(lolwut?), target painter

I'm fairly sure macroers will be farming gallente militia LP - most damaging drones, good armor plates, omnilink, plus all the standard stuff

Nikuno
Posted - 2009.07.14 09:26:00 - [108]
 

Armour plates? Will you now address the uselessness of the armour plates you gave the Intaki LP store please?

Shield Extenders? Will you now address the uselessness of the shield extenders you gave the Thukker LP store please?

I am so pleased to see some original and usable items being introduced into unique LP stores, but the items you chose were already on offer in other stores at tragically rubbish stats, and now with these new items to compete with they are totally without value. Couldn't someone spend a few minutes giving these LP stores something worth the effort of missioning too?

Hobgoblin ll
Posted - 2009.07.14 10:14:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Dragon Greg
Very Happy I could not resist this ...

so, BOB goes to do Faction Warfare, and CCP starts finally to work on it, and now they improve the pay too RazzRazzRazz

... where's my tinfoil hat Cool



Yes, thats very suspicious. They joined minmatar, even tho they had higher standing to amarr or caldari 2 weeks ago. Why minmatar ? I bet cause they have the best reward, that target painters will be bought by all that highsec torp missionrunners. And better shield extenders they have too, that again will be bought by the highsec missionrunners with deep pockets. Seems like someone knew something before the rest uf us Shocked

Hobgoblin ll
Posted - 2009.07.14 10:21:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Ambo
Originally by: CCP Ytterbium
Originally by: Antonia Frak
You mean offers only from FW npc corps (example Tribal Liberation Force) or also from all other faction corps in where you have loyalty points (example brutor tribe, sebestior, etc. plus Tribal Lib. Force.)?


Everything listed in the blog will only be available for FW militias, which are only limited to the four following corporations:

* 24th Imperial Crusade
* State Protectorate
* Federal Defence Union
* Tribal Liberation Force

All other corporations will have the same offer requirements as they have now on Tranquility.


That is a massive dissapointment. I've just set up a corp with some friends and we are going to be joining FW once they annoying 7 day wait was over. Why on earth are these rewards not available to player corps taking part in FW?


Calm down, CCP Ytterblum means that those items will be reduced in the NPC corporation LP stores. For example the Federal Defence Union, which has the agent and lp store. Your private corp doesn't have an LP store, but you still do your mission for the Federal Defence Union and can access it's LP store. "Only limited to four corporations" means that you don't get the new stuff or reduced prices for the LP of other NPC corporations.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2009.07.14 10:25:00 - [111]
 

I like this. It will make faction ships go dow a tad in prices overall (so may be worth using the outside FW as wll), and some new nifty modules. (more and different mods with different uses is always nice imo, tho balancing them is the tricky part.)

Less CPU using LSEs is very interesting indeed. Also interesting sensor strenght implants, tho maby a tad harsh on the ECM users are we? ;P

As a pirate I have had a few run-ins with the factional warefare guys, everytime I either flee or get blown up. To thik that there will be more of them now in more powerful ships... I guess I gotta start my own pirate crew, not much more room for solo now a days ;P

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.07.14 10:55:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Snake O'Donell

My point exactly. the only way to beat an RR BS gang is to outblob it now. No tactics, no strategy, just blob blob blob.


Pro-Tipô: Just because YOU can't think of another way doesn't mean there isn't one.

Hint: ECM
Hint: Lockbreaker and Void bombs.

Nikuno
Posted - 2009.07.14 10:58:00 - [113]
 

Bombs are not usable in low sec

Horatius Caul
Amarr
Kitzless
Posted - 2009.07.14 11:22:00 - [114]
 

So, to summarize:

For four years, CCP worked on ideas for Factional Warfare. In 2008 it was finally released, with mechanics described as intended to help people get into PvP.

The end-goal of the FW mechanics is to take all of the warzone. To do so you need to capture individual star systems. To do so you need to shoot at bunkers. To do so you need to capture plexes.

In the warzone you occasionally get kills, or get killed. The mechanics are intended to draw fights into plexes and to bunkers, but perhaps we should look a bit closer at things.

The whole system can be described as a set of stairs.


The Warzone
Systems
Bunkers
Plexing
PvP


Attentive readers might realize something. Of the five steps in FW, only one has any effect whatsoever - PvP.

Taking a warzone does nothing (those who work their asses off don't even get a medal).

Taking systems does nothing other than force you to take a more defensive stance.

Shooting bunkers is only slightly less annoying that shooting at POSes.

And finally, taking plexes. Plexes give you VP, which feeds the points above that step. Those VPs give you ranks (which have done absolutely nothing, and now do next to nothing).

In the end, the only thing which affects anything real is shooting people's ships. And if nothing else in FW has any effect, why join FW at all? It's easier to form a pirate corp and shoot people in a militia than it is to grind standings to join a militia. Even now there are "neutral" corps and alliances involved with FW affairs, and they have arguably as much effect on things as the militia corps do.

So, you'd expect CCP to finish this half-finished hotel on the resort that is FW. People are enjoying the beach, but only the half-crazy people who want to support the local economy are living in the hotel - despite the fact that there's no electricity or running water. Now, instead of finishing the hotel, CCP is spending their time and money on setting up huts on the beach for selling coke in plastic bags. There's nothing stopping anyone from having a fun time at the beach, kicking down sand castles and splashing water on each other, but eventually people will be put off by the overgrown and crumbling ruin that was originally intended to be Hotel Empyrean.

CCP, how long will it take for you to realize that you need to fix existing mechanics before adding new ones? Figure out a way to translate Victory Points in LP, and you will attract people to plexing, you will attract people to capturing and re-capturing systems, you will get people to fight over complexes and have the controlled PvP environment you originally intended. If you don't have any correlation between plexing and LP, all you'll do is inspire conventional lowsec warfare.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2009.07.14 12:34:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Nikuno
Bombs are not usable in low sec


This.

ECM is usually key to break strong RR. I have not tried ECM bursts yet, but the ECM burst on a ECM ship should act as a ship bound lockbreaker bomb.

Gartel Reiman
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2009.07.14 12:45:00 - [116]
 

This is a very welcome set of changes; it's good to see some actions to make FW PvP mean more than just killboard stats, and from the figures presented here it seems like the rewards are tangible without being overpowered.

I do agree with other posters though that the way rank currently works, the LP multiplier isn't going to work as well as it perhaps should do, since generally speaking the best PvP pilots don't mess around with plexes and thus have low rank, while conversely those that have a high rank spend a lot of time plexing and are less competent at actual PvP (and I know there will be many exceptions, so don't take offense if you have a high rank Razz). The only real way to fix this is to tie rank to PvP action as well; since LP is gained for kills, this paves the way somewhat for a similar system of gaining militia standing?


As Bad Messenger said, it's not entirely clear how the gang/LP sharing mechanics work. It seems like it would be simpler to get LP shared for being on the killmail, rather than being part of the gang that got the final blow. I guess the reason this wasn't done was so that e.g. logistics ships that don't aggress still get credit?

Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
boost faction drones, if they don't do at least as much damage as t2 they are worthless Sad

I disagree, it's not all about damage, you know. Lower base damage but better tracking is going to yield better results in many situations, and certainly makes the drones more flexible. Doubling the HP is kinda nice though I'll agree that for most PvP encounters this isn't a big deal - I expect this isn't so much a change to boost the performance of the drones, per se, but rather so that pilots can actually deploy their expensive faction drones without worrying that they'll be webbed and popped as soon as they're out of the drone bay.

I'm also a fan of things that are different as opposed to just plain better; rather than simply having a progression of T1 < T2 < faction, T2 and faction are both competitive depending on what you want to do.

Originally by: Veshta Yoshida
- Plates with better stats? Great job, lets throw even more of the ridiculous buffer tanks into the mix, make them active repairers with uber-stats instead (shield/armour).

I disagree with this as well. Yes, completely I agree with you that buffer tanking is grossly overpowered compared to active tanking. However, the fix to this needs to be considered separately and address the underlying game mechanics reasons behind this. Simply changing what FW-faction items are available is not really going to change a thing.

With that in mind, it makes perfect sense that there's an Amarr faction plate available, and it's well-balanced with the existing plates, so that's OK in my book. It might even expedite addressing the buffer tank issue, should it be considered to be a problem.

Originally by: Veshta Yoshida
You have had 18 months to brainstorm this and collect ideas and still what is proposed is out of touch in the extreme.

I think you're overreacting. As per my first comment in this post, I think it's great that CCP are doing something to make PvP in itself meaningful. And most importantly, at the end of the devblog:
Quote:
It is important to remember that all the above is not a "fix" for Factional Warfare. It is only the first step of many to put its implementation back into the original vision that was ours during the Empyrean Age release.

You seem to be completely ignoring this, and deciding that this is all that's going to happen, as if the other issues are going to be ignored.

All that can really be taken from this post is:
  • PvP action itself is now being materially rewarded with LP
  • Militia LP stores give a specific benefit to earning militia LP
  • CCP acknowledges that the FW mechanics are problematic and is clearly working on ways to improve them

All of these are clearly very good things.

Nikuno
Posted - 2009.07.14 12:58:00 - [117]
 

Just done the numbers on the new Faction ship offers. Feel free to correct me, and I have erred on the side of generosity. You would have to add the build cost of the ship to the figures below as the most popular route illustrated is for the bpc, but this amounts to 75-80 million isk extra.

Currently a Faction BS might sell for 500million isk. The most popular route for getting these ships seems to be the cost of 500,000LP plus 200million isk.

This means the 500,000LP are traded for 300million isk, or 600isk/LP.This excludes the cost of building the ship which reduces the isk/LP, but as I said I'm erring on the generous side.

Now the new FW offer is 250,000LP and 20m isk. At 600isk/LP that equates to 150million isk cost for the LP at today's rates plus the 20million actual isk. That is a total value for a navy BS of 170million isk to retain todays market exchange rate for LP.

When you consider that 3-4 months ago you could get most navy BS for 300-350 million, that brings the cost of a navy bs down to 102-119million if the market will bear that rate.

The figures for the other ship classes are just as spurious. The offers seem overly generous unless the idea is to ensure we all fly faction ships, and to remove most of the attraction of working for non faction warfare ships.

Mana Sanqua
Posted - 2009.07.14 13:00:00 - [118]
 

A suggestion for some quick fixes that should be equally easy to implement:

- Have offensive complexes payout loyalty points equal to the equivalent mission divided amongst players on grid. (Actually, twice the regular mission rewards preferentially, but leave that to Dev balance) Hence the lp reward for a L1 offensive complex=L1 mission LP etc. Should be doable as standing is delivered for doing plex's so can be tied to the same mechanic.
- Have all defensive payout as L1 missions.
- Have militia kills earn standing similar to ratting. Hence rank becomes something that good pvp'ers get. Again should be doable as if rewarding lp's, then standing can rewarded at the same time.


This would go a long way to helping FW on it's way. Fixes such as downtime bug could wait, but this would help make plexing meaningful.

Gartel Reiman
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2009.07.14 13:29:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Nikuno
Just done the numbers on the new Faction ship offers...

Now the new FW offer is 250,000LP and 20m isk. At 600isk/LP that equates to 150million isk cost for the LP at today's rates plus the 20million actual isk. That is a total value for a navy BS of 170million isk to retain todays market exchange rate for LP.

When you consider that 3-4 months ago you could get most navy BS for 300-350 million, that brings the cost of a navy bs down to 102-119million if the market will bear that rate.

You seem to be missing the point that FW LPs are not entirely interchangeable with other LPs, since you cannot grind them at any kind of reliable rate. Highsec L4 mission-runners probably get in the order of magnitude of 10,000 LP per hour. Compare that to militia LP; if you take down three battlecruisers, solo, you get 600LP. Gaining LP from plexing and FW missions (if anyone does them) is equally slow.

Consequently, since they accrue at a much slower rate, they'll be valued a lot more in terms of ISK/hr conversions, and secondly there will be very few people who actually get the amount of militia LP needed to buy a battleship in any timely fashion. No-one's going to grind specifically for this, since you can make more money in less time grinding L4s in highsec, plus I suspect that the new specific modules will give you a greater return on your LPs anyway. Chances are that only a few people will cash in, those who've been taking part in FW for the sake of it for a while and end up with a pile of LP as a side-effect, and the volume from these sales isn't going to be enough to destabilise the market.

So while yes, it's much "cheaper" to get a faction BS from the militia LP store (as was intended), I'd be very surprised if the supply from this area was significant enough to disrupt the actual prices of faction BS in any noticeable way. Most likely, it just means more profit for those who occasionally cash in on this.

Droog 1
Posted - 2009.07.14 13:32:00 - [120]
 

Edited by: Droog 1 on 14/07/2009 13:51:12
Cheers CCP, this is a good start to fixing FW. LP for kills is an excellent idea and a great way to encourage more small gang PvP: If people want LP they will have to engage in PvP rather than run a plexes in a dead end system with no chance of being interrupted-If people don't want to share the LP with 30 other people in their fleet they will have to fly in smaller gangs. LP for kills is a great way to increase the PvP.

I'm against LP for plexing until the post DT respawn is sorted out. Anybody who is able to log on post DT will have a huge advantage because there are more plexes to be found with less people to disrupt them.





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