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Kira Hitomi
Amarr
101st Covert Ops
C. O. R. E.
Posted - 2009.07.13 01:52:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Kira Hitomi on 13/07/2009 14:31:55
The title of this topic will no doubt make many curious and I don't doubt there will be a debate about this, however I'm proposing a way to give armor a passive regenerative trait like shields.

I'm proposing, Regenerative Ablative Armor Plating, which has its basis in both sci-fi and real life. Ablative armor works through a process of ablation (Ablation is defined as the removal of material from the surface of an object by vaporization, chipping, or other erosive processes.) and is currently used in a few military applications as well as in the space program. Its extremely useful although can be very heavy in various applications making speed and maneuvering difficult. So it is something that can be done and is being done currently, the only part that makes this more sci-fi is that currently we do not have the technology to make it regenerative (think of it working like skin cells, as old ones fall away from the body, the body regenerates more to replace the ones lost only its Fullerene *an allotrope of carbon even more durable than diamond* armor), however thousands of years into the future that is EVE I'm sure we would have a way to make it work.

Now stepping away from the real life and into game terms, this module would allow armor to "recharge" like shields along with a low resistance boost but would be off-set by increasing the weight and lowering the agility of this ship equiped with it.

For example;
Regenerative Ablative Armor I - This module gives a passive repair trait similar to shields to armor plating and a low boost to armor resistances at the expense of increased mass and lowered agility. ( +5% to all armor resists and gives "recharge" rate to armor; +10% mass increase and -10% agility )

Can only fit one per ship.
*Uses new skill - Regenerative Armor Systems +5% "recharge" rate per lvl *

This allows a passive recharge rate to armor similar to shields, and has pluses and minuses in line with shields (with an armor based twist). Allowing armor tankers the same benefits as shield tankers in being able to have both true active and true passive tanks. Along with this we can include modules that help with armor repairing and boosting in the same way that shields have.

For Example;
Ablative Armor Matrix I - Increases Armor repair rate while lowering maximum armor cap. +25% repair rate, -15% armor hp *based off of Shield Flux Coil I

Ablative Armor Re-enforcement I - Diverts power from the ships engines to increase the armor repair rate. +20% repair rate, -35% velocity *based off of Shield Power Relay I

Ablative Armor Accelerator I - Improves repair armor repair rate. +10% repair rate
*based off of Shield Recharger I

Now these modules would require little in regards to programing and introducing into game (no I'm not a programer so I'm only guessing here). You'd basically only need to clone the modules they are based off of, change the descriptions, and modify the attributes a little. Of course there is the balancing and the ever present nerfing but its already based off of shields which have already been balanced and nerfed so there is not more needed to be done lol. I'm pretty sure that this far into the future with certain races favoring shields (and having already developed the very same modules that the one listed above are based on) and the others favoring armor that they would have developed these systems by now, at the very least one would think that the Amarr would have as they are very heavily armor based. Who knows maybe this is based off of Fullerene technology, maybe its what the sleepers use in place of shielding.

Either way I want to open the floor for people to share there opinions and any other ideas to go along with this, I've spent a few years looking into this and thought it was time to bring it up and see what people think, and maybe have something new brought to this wonderful playground that is EVE.

Tom Hanks
The Warped Corpe
Posted - 2009.07.13 03:26:00 - [2]
 

I think this is a well thought out and good idea. Armor tankers do need a passive tank that regenerates slowly. This is a good basis for that.


ark maphar
Posted - 2009.07.13 03:34:00 - [3]
 

i strongly disagree to this idea, there needs to be some difference between armor tanking and shield tanking

Ohh Yeah
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.07.13 03:45:00 - [4]
 

I like the idea, could play out fairly interestingly.

Dryson Bennington
Posted - 2009.07.13 03:56:00 - [5]
 

I like it, it is new and different.

What about a armor/shield module fit that could be used for both? You would turn one on drawing certain percentages from one module that decreases it's attributes but would increase the other modules attributes? If you have both on at the same time you would get double the percentages but it would deplete your cap 50% faster.

Pvt Public7
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2009.07.13 04:03:00 - [6]
 

Would be broken unless:
Max armor regen rate was <10% max shield regen rate
or
Could only regen 10% of max armor HP
or
Was a script for current active repairers AND had one of the two above features AND was limited to one module per ship.

Mindmazer
Posted - 2009.07.13 04:19:00 - [7]
 

I think it's a great idea, imagine Drake-type passive armor tankers and new items will help stimulate the market/ Smile

Hrodgar Ortal
Minmatar
Ma'adim Logistics
Posted - 2009.07.13 04:49:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Hrodgar Ortal on 13/07/2009 04:49:51
Armour tanks are already the flavor of the month (year?) in pvp. Making their tank regen passively isn't a very good idea as it would make them even more preferred.
Only way to balance it would be for it to have a large penalty to total armour HP, something along the lines of 50% less otherwise it is just overpowered with the current balance of tanking.

Kira Hitomi
Amarr
101st Covert Ops
C. O. R. E.
Posted - 2009.07.13 13:21:00 - [9]
 

Ok lets address some of the comments thus far;

Originally by: ark maphar
i strongly disagree to this idea, there needs to be some difference between armor tanking and shield tanking


There is a vast difference between armor and shield tanking, this would just level the field a bit, allowing one type of tanker the same benefits as the other. The only difference is that shield tanking, you have your primary defense, after thats gone you have two layers of buffer to get out if you need to which can be setup passively. On the flip side with armor tanking you have one layer of buffer before you get to your primary defense and when its gone you have a very small buffer to get out at that point and currently there is no means for a true passive defense with it.


Originally by: Pvt Public7
Would be broken unless:
Max armor regen rate was <10% max shield regen rate
or
Could only regen 10% of max armor HP
or
Was a script for current active repairers AND had one of the two above features AND was limited to one module per ship.


The regen amount would be lower then the higher shield regen as nano assemblers passively generating ablative armor would take longer then shield emiters releasing energy, say at max 2/3 to 3/4 the rate of shield regen with maxed skills AND it would limited to one module per ship.


Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal
Armour tanks are already the flavor of the month (year?) in pvp. Making their tank regen passively isn't a very good idea as it would make them even more preferred.
Only way to balance it would be for it to have a large penalty to total armour HP, something along the lines of 50% less otherwise it is just overpowered with the current balance of tanking.


This is true to an extent, It does vary from region to region. Making the armor regen passive is a choice I feel the should be available just as its available to shield tankers, only doing it this way requires an additional skill to train and an equiped module to boot. Its not a natural regen like shields are. The balance with this comes with the weight increase and the agility decrease, making it easier to hit in the same way shield boosting items increase signature radius, plus the regen rate would be around 66-75% of what the max regen of shields would be with maxed out skills. Not counting any boosting modules/rigs. As to the flavor of the month comment, I'm sure the thousands of omni-shield tanked Ravens/CNRs/Golems would disagree.


Hrodgar Ortal
Minmatar
Ma'adim Logistics
Posted - 2009.07.13 14:31:00 - [10]
 

I don't know how many golems/cnr/ravens you will find in a pvp fleet. From what I've been told (I'm by no means an expert) missiles suck for many reasons.

My comment was only at pvp where armour is preferred from what I can see.
Shield (and even more specifically caldari missile boats) are extremely capable at pve but I doubt that armour tanked ships have any massive problems with running lvl4's, I've been told that the domi for example is a very capable mission running machine.

As for mass and agility being important in order to make the other guy not hit you. I seriously doubt the drawback is significant on a battleship sized ship. They are slow as slugs regardless and since it is % based the difference isn't very large.
I'm sure there are people who have crunched the numbers but it feels to me that sig radius has more drawbacks compared to agility for large ships.

I think you have thought too much on the pve side of things and not enough on the balance between different kinds of tanks in the game and how they should interact.



Kira Hitomi
Amarr
101st Covert Ops
C. O. R. E.
Posted - 2009.07.13 14:47:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Kira Hitomi on 13/07/2009 14:48:20
Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal
I don't know how many golems/cnr/ravens you will find in a pvp fleet. From what I've been told (I'm by no means an expert) missiles suck for many reasons.

My comment was only at pvp where armour is preferred from what I can see.
Shield (and even more specifically caldari missile boats) are extremely capable at pve but I doubt that armour tanked ships have any massive problems with running lvl4's, I've been told that the domi for example is a very capable mission running machine.

As for mass and agility being important in order to make the other guy not hit you. I seriously doubt the drawback is significant on a battleship sized ship. They are slow as slugs regardless and since it is % based the difference isn't very large.
I'm sure there are people who have crunched the numbers but it feels to me that sig radius has more drawbacks compared to agility for large ships.

I think you have thought too much on the pve side of things and not enough on the balance between different kinds of tanks in the game and how they should interact.


All good points, you'll find that pvp fleets will be mixed for various reasons, missiles have there place along with shield tanking even in pvp. As to the mass/agility drawback, it was just a starting point for a basis it could easily be switched to something else. For example, instead of mass/agility drawback, have the module switch the natural shield regen to the armor but at a lower then usual rate say at rate of 75-80%, therefore not allowing the shields to regen once they are all the way down, putting it very much in line with shield tanking. And again there would be the module and additional skill requirement. Also think that while this would allow a regen rate for armor, there is nothing to boost that regen rate except the one skill, where as shields have passive boosters for regen rates.

Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
Posted - 2009.07.13 16:31:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Marcus Gideon on 13/07/2009 16:33:39
I personally would love to see passive armor tanking.

Especially when we have "Regenerative Membranes" which don't actually regenerate...

And as for all those folks complaining about how unbalanced it would be... they're just scared it would mean they're no longer uber for flying a passive Drake or Raven anymore.

Honestly, the passive defense those two in particular can mount is what needs rebalanced. That a dual repping Domi (BS) and a passive Drake (BC) can compete for survival...


EDIT: I don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't mind putting the "Cloud of nanobots" to better use, like fixing my damned ship maybe?

Korbin Dallaz
Posted - 2009.07.19 19:51:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Korbin Dallaz on 19/07/2009 19:51:45
If the Caldari were armor tankers this would already exist . I jest of course but with Drakes out preforming most Battleships in level 4 solo mission running and the Nighthawks being reputed to be the only ship this side of multi Billion isk Tech 3 ( I don't know enough about T 3 to know if they are even capable or not ) capable of soloing level 5 missions there does seem to be an imbalance some where that maybe should be looked at a little better . Weather this is the answer or not I am unsure but I do like the sound of it . There is a reason why there are far more Caldari characters than any other race . But then again we can all cross train so maybe I should quit crying and allow myself to become assimilated into the Caldari collective . Resistance if Futile , well not armor and shield resistance but you know what I mean .

AtheistOfDoom
Amarr
Invicta.
Posted - 2009.07.19 21:13:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: ark maphar
i strongly disagree to this idea, there needs to be some difference between armor tanking and shield tanking

^my sentiment exactly. Since armor doesn't regen there is a nice difference between shield tanking and armor, this kind of removes that so less variety in game between races and stuff.

Gin G
The Helghast Corporation
Posted - 2009.07.20 04:11:00 - [15]
 

stop watching startrek

start watching stargate or battlestar galactica (the new one)

odama jasonsson
Caldari
Het Kruitvat
Tin Can Alliance
Posted - 2009.07.20 14:32:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: odama jasonsson on 20/07/2009 14:42:50
Originally by: Gin G
stop watching startrek

start watching stargate or battlestar galactica (the new one)


Stop with startrek? hell no! start watching stargate or battlestar galactica (the new one) ? Check! YARRRR!!

Yeah the nature of armor IS absorbing dmg till it's gone. Ofcourse it seems wierd the regenerative membrames are not regenerating. But modern day regenerative materials can only regenerate so much before the supply of fluids incased in the materials run out. So due to this fact the membrames are after all not broken because they extend hp/armor life but don't let it completely regenerate. So it's just a buffer added.Besides this fact, shield repping is a energy proces, your restoring an integrety field. whilst repping armor is regenerating a material so adding energy to your metal plate isn't going to work. You need to fysicaly inject the nano-assemblers on the damaged plate. This can only be done properly actively because armor doesnt't work like a capacitor and shields do. Better leave it how it is imo.

(About star trek: only in the newest serie the armor rgenerate, in the other series they use "passive" shields like we see in eve Cool )

Kobushi
Posted - 2009.07.20 15:06:00 - [17]
 

you can have regenative armor only when shield tanker gets passive omnitank amps and real meta 1-4 amps/hardners not the current T1-one named-T2 shield tanker gets

Ryuzaki Lawliet
Caldari
Posted - 2009.07.20 15:46:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Korbin Dallaz
Edited by: Korbin Dallaz on 19/07/2009 19:51:45
If the Caldari were armor tankers this would already exist . I jest of course but with Drakes out preforming most Battleships in level 4 solo mission running and the Nighthawks being reputed to be the only ship this side of multi Billion isk Tech 3 ( I don't know enough about T 3 to know if they are even capable or not ) capable of soloing level 5 missions there does seem to be an imbalance some where that maybe should be looked at a little better . Weather this is the answer or not I am unsure but I do like the sound of it . There is a reason why there are far more Caldari characters than any other race . But then again we can all cross train so maybe I should quit crying and allow myself to become assimilated into the Caldari collective . Resistance if Futile , well not armor and shield resistance but you know what I mean .


The Ishtar can solo L5's...

I wouldn't be against this if it was made so that the shields were (possibly) removed from the ship.

If shields do work the way that entry says, what is there from creating a module that changes their function? I would see it resulting in the loss of your shields. Also because you are forcing the nanites to perform a function that they are not designed to do they are not as capable re-enforcing armor as they are shields. Plus I would say for there to not be a peak recharge rate, but a constant re-enforcement rate.


Originally by: Kobushi
you can have regenative armor only when shield tanker gets passive omnitank amps and real meta 1-4 amps/hardners not the current T1-one named-T2 shield tanker gets

Heh that too.

Iman Atheist
Gangrel Mining and Security
High Treason Alliance
Posted - 2009.07.20 18:10:00 - [19]
 

I support this idea. It's well thought out and I can't find a hole in it, especially when I consider the later suggestions and OP's corrections.

The armor tankers DO deserve a choice of tanking methods. Also, it is hard to imagine such advanced technology as EVE's without regenerative armor.

I agree with the nerfs such as "kill the shield regen" or "make it one module only". I would also add the choice of "store extra nanite paste in the cargohold" one.

I think that it would not upset the game balance if CCP was to clone the shield modules/skills into a slightly nerfed armor variant. After all, it wouldn't give the ships any more DPS absorption. It would just provide a choice of strategy.


 

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