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Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.10.03 10:16:00 - [511]
 

Originally by: amdul kabar
There is also no indepth research on income from mining operation, both solo and grouped.

The amount that can be made from mining is WELL researched! You need only to search for it in EVE-search to find it!

It's an easy figure to calculate, since a Hulk can only mine so much per hour (taking max. equipment, skills and gang skills into account). That establishes the base amount of minerals, and it is then easy to calculate the maximum possible income from ore.

For high-sec, this'll be around 15m ISK/hour when prices for Tritanium are high!

---

It doesn't matter for me what an unknown troll like Victor Vision says. He's just like any other mission runner who is oh so fearful that CCP will see the logic in this thread and nerf mission income.
In essence, he's just thinking about his own little world and not about what is good for the game as such. There are plenty of small people like that, and the main defining characteristic is that they don't provide anything to support their statement (as they can't), but tries with lies and post bombardment instead. It makes them look pretty silly, so I normally enjoy it Laughing
He also tried arguing in another thread (posts #63, #65, #66, #68) where he actually used some pretty stupid numbers and arguments. You may want to look at them for a laugh Cool

If you want to see reasoned arguments against what I say, look at the posts by Venkul Mul and Carniflex in this thread. Both of them agree with my numbers, but disagree with my conclusion and provides their own arguments against it. Now THAT is how a serious person discusses a subject!

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.03 10:27:00 - [512]
 

Originally by: Victor Vision

Isk per hour from rewards & bounties (rounded): 24mil
Isk per minute from rewards & bounties (rounded): 401k


That is what the screenshot shows, no more no less.


PS.:
If we add a hypothetical 8.4mil in LP worth (7000LP for the 92min * 1200isk/LP)
then your hourly average was 32,4mil total - significantly less than the 45mil the OP claims. And your 32,4mil per hour average is including one of the best paying missions.
Not all missions pay so well.


2 mission, in 1 and a half hours is more like 10.000 LP (with the best agents in game and the special connection skills), so at least 6.500 LP/hour and not the pitiful 4.600 your calculation will give.

Then you have lost this:

Originally by: Kerfira
LP value is set at 1800 ISK/LP, which is what I get


A reasonable conversion rate if you search a bit for the right deals. I have seem people getting more and got more from some of my LP conversions.

So the LP value for 1 hour of mission running at the pace show by Norwegian Wood screenshot is about:

6.500*1.800=11.700.000

Giving a hourly average of 35,7 millions without salvage and loot.

If you think a golem will not recover more than 10 millions/hour in loot and salvage it mean you have never used one.

I partially disagree with Kerfira conclusion, as I think that the problem is not level 4 mission in general but the big difference between what a moderate skill/moderate equipment and a high skill/costly equipment pilot will make.

A beginner at level 4 missions will really make around 20 million hour while a expert with top gear and skills can make as much as 50 millions with ease, i.e. the veteran level 4 mission runner get 250% of the profit of the beginner.

To make a paragon with mining it is like if a guy in a covetor would make 8 millions mining a belt and a guy in a hulk, mining the same belt, would make 20.

The difference instead is around +50% from a covetor with good skills to a maxed out hulk.
I.e. the equivalent of going from 8 to 12 millions.

(Read Halada guide here for the complete data)

So I fell that level 4 don't need a "generic" reduction in payout but a smaller gap between the returns for high and low skill runners, moving the returns of high skill runners toward what a low skill runner get.

How that can be achieved is the problem.





Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.10.03 11:03:00 - [513]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Then you have lost this:
Originally by: Kerfira
LP value is set at 1800 ISK/LP, which is what I get

A reasonable conversion rate if you search a bit for the right deals. I have seem people getting more and got more from some of my LP conversions.

Actually, I make 2600 ISK/LP these days after the ISK farmer mission runners were banned. Prices for (some) LP store items REALLY hit the roof!
Originally by: Venkul Mul
So I fell that level 4 don't need a "generic" reduction in payout but a smaller gap between the returns for high and low skill runners, moving the returns of high skill runners toward what a low skill runner get.

Very good point actually, and something I could agree (mostly) with.

I still think that a starting L4 mission runner (in high-sec) should only be able to earn maybe 10-15m ISK/hour, and one with top-skills and equipment maybe 20m ISK/hour. That'd still make it overlap with top-end mining for the beginner MR, and be up to 50% better for the experienced MR.
That'd provide the balance between professions that I'd like to see. If exploration got a boost too, then we'd be about there.

The of.c. as you've said, the imbalance between races MR'ing should be addressed. Caldari and Amarr are good at MR'ing, and Gallente has the afk'ness advantage of the Dominix, but Minmatar generally sux for MR'ing...

Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
Posted - 2009.10.03 11:25:00 - [514]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
2 mission, in 1 and a half hours is more like 10.000 LP (with the best agents in game and the special connection skills), so at least 6.500 LP/hour and not the pitiful 4.600 your calculation will give.


Look,
I can claim to get 15000LP per minute.
I can claim to get 5mil isk per LP.
I can claim to make 5bil an hour running missions.

But without proof, the claims mean nothing.

Originally by: Venkul Mul
A beginner at level 4 missions will really make around 20 million hour while a expert with top gear and skills can make as much as 50 millions with ease, i.e. the veteran level 4 mission runner get 250% of the profit of the beginner.


Again, you are making assumptions as long as there is no proof.
As I have said, my numbers are different.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.10.03 11:41:00 - [515]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 03/10/2009 11:46:30
Originally by: Victor Vision
As I have said, my numbers are different.

Well, since you advocate:
  • Reprocessing loot
  • Building ships from said loot
  • Selling salvage
  • Investigating LP profits and spending LP gained

...after EACH AND EVERY MISSION, of.c. your figures (that you haven't presented) of time spent thus profit/hour are different!

PS: Question.... Do you also do this when you run L1/2's to grind standings for alts?
PPS: Does it really feel so good making a fool out of yourself that you have to keep doing it?

Twisted EvilVery HappyLaughingTwisted Evil

Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
Posted - 2009.10.03 11:54:00 - [516]
 

Edited by: Victor Vision on 03/10/2009 12:15:27
Originally by: Kerfira
Useless drivel


Laughing
YOU advocated reprocessing loot, building ships from it, and then selling them under price.
I took up on that and said building ships and selling them takes more than ZERO time.

Besides, are you trying to change the topic?

You put up some mission numbers,
now provide proof for them.

I will continue to doubt you until you finally produce proof.
Since you still have not been able to produce proof, it becomes more and more obvious that your numbers are theoretical.

PS.:
For all I know you are a disgrunteled 0.0 alt of some fail alliance who lost all his stuff in some conquered station. Then you ran some missions taking advice from some alliance mates and found money could be made with it. This was too much for you, so you called for a further high-sec nerf. To promote your point you made up some numbers, which you then posted in this thread.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.10.03 12:18:00 - [517]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 03/10/2009 12:22:13
Originally by: Victor Vision
Insults etc., but still no numbers...

Ahhh.... Insults Razz

The last refuge of the forum troll who's been exposed as such... who's had his arguments (or in your case, lack of them) disproven, etc.

Say, how about something new: You providing some NUMBERS!

Originally by: Victor Vision
YOU advocated reprocessing loot, building ships from it, and then selling them under price.

Yes I did, but anyone with even the smallest brain would realise that the time spent on this, spread over maybe 200 missions would be negligible. In total, it takes me maybe 5 minutes, over those 200 missions. That equivates to 1.5 SECONDS per mission!
It for certain doesn't amount to the 15 minutes PER MISSION your brain calculated Laughing

Damn, you really are digging that hole deeper and deeper, aren't you Razz

Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
Posted - 2009.10.03 12:30:00 - [518]
 

Edited by: Victor Vision on 03/10/2009 12:35:13
Originally by: Kerfira
Still no proof


As far as I can see it is you slinging mud and being insulting.
Rather amusing, but somehow sad as well.

Your only way out of this is to provide proof for your numbers.
Instead of wasting your time replying to this thread,
get some screen grab software (FRAPS is well known)
and let us see if you speak the truth.

It is very, very simple.

Qui Shon
Posted - 2009.10.03 13:06:00 - [519]
 

Whatever the method of delivery of mr VV, the point does stand, as it has from page 1, in that you omit all overhead apart from doing the actual mission with salvage+looting. The most important bit is that you state your case for nerfs not on the basis of averages, of the masses if you will, as it should be stated, but from the top of the curve.

Of course, that's all you can do as you lack proper data, as that is exclusive to CCP. Sad bit about that is that CCP, or at least parts of it, seem sometimes incapable of making sense of their own data, as some of the repro threads clearly show.

It's nice to have some figures for what you do. I got my own spreadsheets too, quite a few of them, for everything from mining to L4's, L5's, T1 production, W-space T3 production chains compared to sleeper activities without processing of materials, and so on. But they're meaningless from a game balance perspective. All they do is let me know L4's aint at the top of the PvE (includes mining) income pyramid, as well as let me compare my performance with others.

To me, any isk/h figure that means a damn, from a long term economical perspective, is isk value gained vs isk value lost, including any time from login to logout spent on any activity even remotely associated with the one measured. Whether that's chatting, getting ammo/ships/mods, helping out friends doing similar stuff as you, dealing with hostiles/salvage thieves, setting up / managing POS's, etc etc. But even then it's just a figure for one player, still entirely meaningless for game balance.

But that's not what this thread is about, of course, this is about stopwatch isk/h, which is a great tool for comparing performance with your peers, but a very poor tool for adjusting game balance. I have never seriously doubted your numbers per se, just that they aren't up to standard for the purposes you want to use them for.

Rehash, rehash, bound to be in a thread as long as this.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.10.03 16:23:00 - [520]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 03/10/2009 16:33:02
Originally by: Victor Vision
Still clueless...

Btw., in your emo-rage over missing proof, you forgot to download the proof that has been provided since page one of this thread Laughing

With each set of statistics I've uploaded a downloadable spreadsheet to eve-files, which details EVERY single mission run, how much ISK is earned for bounties and rewards, how much LP is earned, how much salvage is made (split down in individual types), and refined loot (split in individual minerals). Also provided are the prices used to calculate the totals.

So if those figures are wrong, it would be SO easy to point out where, yet nobody has done so! ...not even you!

Wow.... I guess what I said in that other thread was true... You ARE the dumbest mission runner in EVE....

Twisted Evil
Originally by: Qui Shon
But they're meaningless from a game balance perspective.

I'll disagree with this. These figures are what most of the 0.0'ers with a mission alt in high-sec are making (at least for my corp), and also what most mission runners would be making with say 3-6 months of starting L4's. Some make even more (as I run them inefficiently to gather good data)...

The figures are good enough to prove that there is an imbalance between high-sec professions, and they're also good enough to prove there is an imbalance between High-sec income and 0.0 income.

As any game balancing would be done by CCP using their own much better figures, it's a moot point anyway. If mission income is seen as a problem by them, my figures may open their eyes to it and prod them into action, but they'd most likely not use them as the basis of any balancing.

Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
Posted - 2009.10.03 17:56:00 - [521]
 

Edited by: Victor Vision on 03/10/2009 18:37:41
Originally by: Kerfira
With each set of statistics I've uploaded a downloadable spreadsheet to eve-files, which details EVERY single mission run, how much ISK is earned for bounties and rewards, how much LP is earned, how much salvage is made (split down in individual types), and refined loot (split in individual minerals). Also provided are the prices used to calculate the totals.


Care to elaborate how this is supposed to be proof for your mission/salvage times given?

What is so hard about providing a fraps of a mission/salvaging run from beginnig to end? Know the good old nike slogan? Just do it. Laughing


Originally by: Kerfira
These figures are what most of the 0.0'ers with a mission alt in high-sec are making (at least for my corp)...


Looks like I was not so wrong with this assumption:
Originally by: Victor Vision
For all I know you are a disgrunteled 0.0 alt of some fail alliance who lost all his stuff in some conquered station. Then you ran some missions taking advice from some alliance mates and found money could be made with it. This was too much for you, so you called for a further high-sec nerf. To promote your point you made up some numbers, which you then posted in this thread.

Trigos Trilobi
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.10.03 18:45:00 - [522]
 

Originally by: Victor Vision
Pointless trolling.


You're either a persistent troll or just plain stupid, considering you proved the numbers yourself already when you accepted that the numbers from the mael guy's screenshot showed that he could do 20m/h with only bounties and rewards.

Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
Posted - 2009.10.03 19:12:00 - [523]
 

Edited by: Victor Vision on 03/10/2009 19:25:40
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
One of 9 chars of the OP? Certainly sounds similar


Reread what was said about that screeny.
The guy who posted it said he makes 20mil/h average (Plus LPs).
That is still unequal to a 45-50mil/h average.
You can find the corresponding discussion here. If I may remind you, you were part of it. Wink

For the 45-50mil/h average, solid proof required.
Preferrably a complete fraps of such a mission/salvaging run.

Got it?

Trigos Trilobi
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.10.03 20:00:00 - [524]
 

Edited by: Trigos Trilobi on 03/10/2009 20:05:07
Edited by: Trigos Trilobi on 03/10/2009 20:00:01
Originally by: Victor Vision

The guy who posted it said he makes 20mil/h average (Plus LPs).
That is still unequal to a 45-50mil/h average.
You can find the corresponding discussion here. If I may remind you, you were part of it. Wink

For the 45-50mil/h average, solid proof required.
Preferrably a complete fraps of such a mission/salvaging run.
Got it?

Yes, you're a bit slow on the uptake yourself though: I already explained above, that, considering reward+bounties are something like 30-40% of a mission income, if you also include lp+salvage+bounties, which is no extra time for a golem pilot, you arrive at around 50m/hour.

So, if you accept the mael guy's 20m/hour from reward+bounties as valid, you've already pretty much proven that a golem pilot can make what's shown in the op.

And before you try again with the "handling salvage/minerals takes time"-argument, I'll just say that <30min every few dozen missions is not going to significantly impact your overall mission times.

Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
Posted - 2009.10.03 20:43:00 - [525]
 

Edited by: Victor Vision on 03/10/2009 20:51:38
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
Theoretical assumptions


What in the world is so hard about providing fraps of a complete mission/salvage run?
PvPers post fraps all the time. (Not of missions of course, but of heroic acts of PvP Wink)

Once solid proof is presented, the discussion can go from there.

Trigos Trilobi
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.10.03 21:01:00 - [526]
 

Edited by: Trigos Trilobi on 03/10/2009 21:04:07
Originally by: Victor Vision
Edited by: Victor Vision on 03/10/2009 20:44:31
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
Theoretical assumptions


What in the world is so hard about providing a fraps of a complete mission/salvage run?
PvPers post fraps all the time. (Not of missions of course, but of heroic acts of PvP Wink)

Once solid proof is presented, the discussion can go from there.


So, you couldn't refute 'the theoretical assumptions' (more like simple math) because we both know they're reasonably accurate, so you ignored them; bit of a habit, isn't it?

I'm sure it would amuse you to no end if someone actually went through the troubles to fraps and post a mission you, but considering you're just trolling here I don't see why anyone would bother, when you'd most likely just ignore that as well. In other words, until you actually contribute something or manage to refute the proof you actually shot yourself in the foot with, I, atleast, am done with your trolling.


Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
Posted - 2009.10.03 21:24:00 - [527]
 

Edited by: Victor Vision on 03/10/2009 21:25:00
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
...I'm sure it would amuse you to no end if someone actually went through the troubles to fraps and post a mission...


Fraps is very simple to use, no effort at all.

Step 1: Install fraps.
Step 2: Assign video capture hotkey.
Step 3: Press said key.
Step 4: Upload movie on www.eve-files.com, in the upload section here.
Step 5: Post link to movie in this thread.

Done.

Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
...I, atleast, am done with your trolling.


Wonderful.

Tom Peeping
Posted - 2009.10.04 01:40:00 - [528]
 

Edited by: Tom Peeping on 04/10/2009 01:50:09
There's one thing you're really forgetting about here.

You're incorrect in your statement that noob lvl 4 missioners will make 20 mill per hour. and it touches on the element your forgetting about. Noob lvl 4 missioners often make less than half that... about 10 mil.... maybe even down to 7 mill... part of the reason for this is the fact that quality goes up as you run missions with the same agent.

You're absolutely correct that a high skilled lvl 4 missioner with a marauder will earn between 30 and 50 mill... but it takes time to get there. Your income goes up as you work with agents. Your taking figures that reflect both high skills, and LOTS of time working with the agent and increasing the effective quality.

As has been said many times before... the error in your posts, has been that you are taking figures that reflect endgame type ships, and endgame type levels of player time, and your acting as if those income levels reflect what any noob can earn in the first hour of mission running.


In proof of this, I've just switched to a brand new, level 4, quality 20 agent, which I've never used before, and I've seen my mission income, as a marauder fitted, high skilled player, absolutely plummet.


Please stop comparing end game type activity and income, and treating it as if it were noob type activity and income.

Once I've played a game for 2 years, honestly, if I couldn't earn 30 to 50 mill per hour, and have access to the corresponding ship replacement, honestly, I'd probably leave the game... not because I expect to earn a given amount of money, but because I expect to be able to replace PVP ships lost in battle at a reasonable rate. Being able to replace a tier 3 battleship in a regular evening, is pretty important to how the game currently functions



Quick edit.... and what most of you don't realize, is that CCP nerfed level 4 missions HARD last patch. Your mocking this guy for claiming these amounts? I was doubling those... up until last patch. Now I'm much closer to 30 mill per hour. (which I grant is less than his claims current claims) CCP has ALREADY nerfed LVL 4 mission income many times... including a MASSIVE nerf this last patch. I recognize that most of you won't have been able to take advantage of the elements that got nerfed... but it doesnt change the fact that they existed.

amdul kabar
Posted - 2009.10.04 01:59:00 - [529]
 

Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
Edited by: Trigos Trilobi on 03/10/2009 21:04:07
So, you couldn't refute 'the theoretical assumptions' (more like simple math) because we both know they're reasonably accurate, so you ignored them; bit of a habit, isn't it?

I'm sure it would amuse you to no end if someone actually went through the troubles to fraps and post a mission you, but considering you're just trolling here I don't see why anyone would bother, when you'd most likely just ignore that as well. In other words, until you actually contribute something or manage to refute the proof you actually shot yourself in the foot with, I, atleast, am done with your trolling.




Again, you can't assume something as reasonably accurate when there is a heavy dispute in place. Over half of the people that replied here said they don't earn that much and doubt if this could be done. I am not saying it's out of the world for a fully fitted Marauder to earn 45 mil/hour, but when it's the exception and not the norm(11-20mil) he has to present tangible proof. Having some other people agree on the internet is not proof. If he can waste all this time on the research and replied to 17 pages surely he can firm the process.

Carebears will remain carebears. Having them grind more missions for the next ship isn't going to deter them. This change only hurts actual PvPers who need a stable income to replace lost ships.

Trigos Trilobi
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.10.04 02:56:00 - [530]
 

Originally by: amdul kabar

Again, you can't assume something as reasonably accurate when there is a heavy dispute in place. Over half of the people that replied here said they don't earn that much and doubt if this could be done. I am not saying it's out of the world for a fully fitted Marauder to earn 45 mil/hour, but when it's the exception and not the norm(11-20mil) he has to present tangible proof. Having some other people agree on the internet is not proof. If he can waste all this time on the research and replied to 17 pages surely he can firm the process.



That's all fine and dandy but you're missing the point. The guy I was replying to already accepted the numbers by the mael pilot, which were past 20m/hour from mission reward + bounties alone. I just pointed out that you can easily extrapolate the marauder income from that. Since mission reward+bounties income typically forms something like 30-40% of total mission income and in general a marauder can loot&salvage without extra time expenditure, a simple 20m/0.4 puts us at a rough estimate of 50m/hour total. It is, as I said, a rough estimate, but it still proves that my or the OP's numbers are easily within realm of reason, and he's just crying for fraps while ignoring everything else because he knows no-one can be bothered and he can keep on trolling.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.10.04 07:58:00 - [531]
 

Originally by: Tom Peeping
You're incorrect in your statement that noob lvl 4 missioners will make 20 mill per hour. and it touches on the element your forgetting about. Noob lvl 4 missioners often make less than half that... about 10 mil.... maybe even down to 7 mill... part of the reason for this is the fact that quality goes up as you run missions with the same agent.

With 'noob mission runner', I don't mean a guy running his first L4 ever, but someone who's been doing them for a few weeks. It doesn't take all that much time to get your standings with the AGENT up to a reasonable level.

He should also have a reasonable skill level, ie. all relevant missile support skills at 4+, and relevant tanking/fitting skills at 4+.

This guy WILL make 20m/hour at least (unless he's a total tool).
Originally by: Tom Peeping
In proof of this, I've just switched to a brand new, level 4, quality 20 agent, which I've never used before, and I've seen my mission income, as a marauder fitted, high skilled player, absolutely plummet.

By the numbers, this can NOT be true....

Bounties, salvage and loot does NOT change with agent quality you know, so they'd be unchanged. This makes up 56% of your mission income (if you do them like I do), so even if the LP/reward is halved, that'll only reduce your total income by 22%. This'll be remedied after a very few missions since standings gains for L4 AGENTS (not the corp) are massive.
Originally by: Tom Peeping
Quick edit.... and what most of you don't realize, is that CCP nerfed level 4 missions HARD last patch.

Can you provide some specifics as to HOW they've nerfed them? I'm currently running L3's to grind R&D standings for my alts, so haven't been L4'ing for a couple of weeks.
I've done a total of four L4's since Apocrypha 1.5.1, and none of them showed any deviation from my previous figures.

For L3's, interesting enough, I'm making at least 2/3rd of what I'm doing on L4's, though I'm speed-running (only looting what I can while shooting) and blitzing as much as I can....

Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
Posted - 2009.10.04 14:00:00 - [532]
 

Edited by: Victor Vision on 04/10/2009 17:22:01
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
...The guy I was replying to already accepted the numbers by the mael pilot, which were past 20m/hour from mission reward + bounties alone.


If I accept some numbers it does not make them true. (Even though I whish it was so)
Maybe the guy had a buddy who was remote reping him in the mission so he could use more dps?
Who knows.


Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
I just pointed out that you can easily extrapolate the marauder income from that...a simple 20m/0.4 puts us at a rough estimate of 50m/hour total. It is, as I said, a rough estimate, but it still proves that my or the OP's numbers are easily within realm of reason...


Basing a request for a nerf of 100's or maybe 1000's of mission runners
on a "rough estimate" reached by a hypothetical extrapolation of some other, differing
mission data, seems higly unreasonable to me.

If the OP can not prove the numbers he is giving as average mission income,
then all the rest of his arguments he builds upon those unproven numbers are built on air.
They have no relevance.


As I have said, my personal guess is that the OP is a failed 0.0 existance.
This is not meant as an insult, it is an observation.

As I have also said, I further guess that the OP did the same thing you just did,
he took some (maybe even realistic) mission data he had - or made - and extrapolated
these numbers. He did this since the hourly income he could achieve with missions would have given him no reason to call for a nerf.

IF the OP had just been bragging about his utter competence in running missions,
I would not have bothered to reply to his thread. I have seen unrealistic claims for mission income before, just as I have seen unrealistic claims of many things.
Does not bother me the least, it is part of human nature to exaggerate.

However, if someone - as in this case the OP - calls for a nerf of pretty much everyone residing in high sec, then I see it as appropriate to respond. Even though he may just be an elaborate troll and laughing about all the responses - and with that the free bumps - he got.

amdul kabar
Posted - 2009.10.04 16:07:00 - [533]
 

Edited by: amdul kabar on 04/10/2009 16:11:08
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
That's all fine and dandy but you're missing the point. The guy I was replying to already accepted the numbers by the mael pilot, which were past 20m/hour from mission reward + bounties alone. I just pointed out that you can easily extrapolate the marauder income from that. Since mission reward+bounties income typically forms something like 30-40% of total mission income and in general a marauder can loot&salvage without extra time expenditure, a simple 20m/0.4 puts us at a rough estimate of 50m/hour total. It is, as I said, a rough estimate, but it still proves that my or the OP's numbers are easily within realm of reason, and he's just crying for fraps while ignoring everything else because he knows no-one can be bothered and he can keep on trolling.


Just because someone made 20 mil in a Maelstrom doesn't mean Kef actually did make 45 mil/hour. Two points I am going to make here. First point, I wanted him to show proof because he has a reasonable motive to manipulate his results. When he first started the topic he suggested a nerf on mission income because high sec professions are apparently imbalanced, but when other people start mentioning getting taxed for bounty/mission reward, mining operation being more profitable when done in groups, as well as the amount of time it takes to fly missions with such efficiency compared to getting a Hulk he ignored them and emphasize he makes 45 mil/hour, so income should drop for all mission runners who don't make nearly as much. It's like having your district manager cut your pay because he thinks your supervisor is being paid too much. Then he admitted on two pages back that he is in a 0.0 corp and that he's disappointed he doesn't see any targets, making roaming worthless. When someone has a secret agenda and make a proposal by pretending to be neutral, it's only natural to be wary when it comes to taking his words.

Second point, most mission runners will stay as mission runners regardless of how drastic the nerf will be. If this does cut down on mission runners, they won't be going to 0.0. They will either go to another profession or quit the game. It's actually funny he said people should need to take more risk when he probably has a whole alliance backing him up wherever he is. Gamers are risk averse by default. They are not going to do anything or make any suggestions if it truly jeopardized their assets, especially not in a game like EVE where it takes years to accumulate. If this change kills the MR profession like Kerf predicted the only thing it will do is make trade hubs less profitable and the price skyrocket because there is much less supply from NPC generated resources. And if everything is bloody expensive even in Jita, it's going to cost an arm and a leg to afford anything in 0.0.

Durango Dragas
Posted - 2009.10.04 16:15:00 - [534]
 

Please don`t begrudge "Carebears" the profits from soloing level 4`s in the name of "game balance", after all, we are risking many millions in our outfitted ships not to mention being constantly plagued by "Ninjas" that steal much of our hard-earned salvage thanks to improved probing tactics. Maybe CCP could enhance the rewards in low and nullsec as a means of obtaing greater "game balance" from that end? Aren`t most players in Eve, those that exist in "Highsec" anyway? Why **** off them to humor a relative fewQuestion

Trigos Trilobi
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.10.04 17:47:00 - [535]
 

Originally by: amdul kabar

Just because someone made 20 mil in a Maelstrom doesn't mean Kef actually did make 45 mil/hour.

No, it doesn't mean that he actually did make 45mil/hour. But it does prove that making 45mil/hour is easily doable under the premises he posted.

Again, my crude estimation was based on three assumptions:
a) a mael pilot can make 20m/h in rewards+bounties alone as proven by the screenshot earlier in this thread, and a golem can easily match a mael in this regard
b) a golem pilot can loot and salvage a mission without significantly impacting the mission completion time
c) reward+isk forms about 40% of a mission income.

If you accept all three assumptions, it mathematically follows that a golem pilot would do that 50m/hour. It's not rocket science, really. And obviously it's just a crude estimation, but crude estimations like this are used all the time to quickly verify if some more complicated calculation or data set is roughly of the proper magnitude.

If you want to contest this, please show how any of the above assumptions is wrong. Furthermore I'd be interested to hear if any of you contesting the ops numbers have ANY numbers of your own to show. Any estimates of how much wrong those numbers are?


Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
Posted - 2009.10.04 19:21:00 - [536]
 

Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
...my crude estimation was based on three assumptions:


Lets have a look:

Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
a) a mael pilot can make 20m/h in rewards+bounties alone as proven by the screenshot earlier in this thread, and a golem can easily match a mael in this regard


A mission runner can make 20mil/h in rewards/bounties if the mission he chose pays well. Some may be able to get more out of a well paying mission in rewards/bounties per hour.
But not all missions pay well. Declining a mission gives a standings hit if done too frequently. So it is hardly possible to decline all "bad" missions for a single agent within a timeframe of say - 8hrs. Typically mission runners will have more than one agent, and switch agents if declining further missions for the first agent seems unfavourable. Usually switching agents means spending time traveling to the next agent.
During that time no income is earned, lowering the isk/h over a longer period of time.

Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
b) a golem pilot can loot and salvage a mission without significantly impacting the mission completion time


On a small mission with relatively few NPCs, a marauder pilot will probably be able to both complete the mission and collect loot/salvage with only a slight increase of time compared to running the same mission without looting/salvaging.
However, even in that case, the effort for running the mission obviously increases, since the mission runner will not only have to target and shoot the NPCs, but also target and tractor/salvage the loot.
Also, the time needed for completion is likely to increase somewhat, simply due to multitasking usually reducing the speed with which every single task can be done (if performed by humans at least)

On a large mission, with many NPCs in the mission, the cargo bay of a marauder (1225qm in case of the golem) is not large enough to hold all loot/salvage. An additional ship has to be brought in to slavage the rest. Larger missions often yield about 2000qm in loot/slavage.
Bringing in an additional ship to loot/salvage, increases mission time by a few minutes at the very least - even when bookmarking the wrecks.

Also it needs to be kept in mind that the range of tractor beams on marauders is 40km.
While this range is sufficient to reach most wrecks in a mission, it may not be sufficient to reach all of them. If the wrecks can not be reached, a lot of time is lost if it is chosen to loot/salvage these wrecks anyway.

Furthermore, the distance at which the NPCs spawn from the marauder has an impact on completion time. A short range high dps marauder will have to wait for the NPCs to come within range - both of his guns/launchers and of his tractor beams. Multiple missions that I know of have NPCs spawn as far as 100km away from the mission runner. This can cost time when killing these NPCs and is even more likely to cost time when wanting to loot/slavage.

Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
c) reward+isk forms about 40% of a mission income.


The most disputeable assumption of the three.
Extra income from missions besides bounties/rewards depends highly on salvage part prices (which fluctuate), mineral prices (which fluctuate) or module prices (which fluctuate).
Also extra income from missions depends on number of LPs gained per mission (this depends on security status of the system the agent is located in, Agent quality and other factors such as connection skill books).
It also depends on LP/isk conversion rates, which can vary steeply between differing LP stores.
On top of that, creating/maintaining spreadsheets with data about LP store items and their current conversion rates can take a lot of time. This time would have to be included in any isk/hour calculations.
Plus you may only have access to an agent with high LP/h yield but a sub optimal LP store or vice versa. Lowering LP/isk conversion rates.
And it takes time to get access to top quality agents.

Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
Posted - 2009.10.04 19:26:00 - [537]
 

Edited by: Victor Vision on 04/10/2009 20:37:58
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
If you accept all three assumptions, it mathematically follows that a golem pilot would do that 50m/hour. It's not rocket science, really. And obviously it's just a crude estimation, but crude estimations like this are used all the time to quickly verify if some more complicated calculation or data set is roughly of the proper magnitude.
If you want to contest this, please show how any of the above assumptions is wrong.


There is a difference between something being wrong and something not being right all the time. The assumptions may be correct in a temporary optimal situation, but are very unlikely to be maintainable over a longer period of time. The assumptions may be acceptable to calculate maximum peak income, but they are not very good for calculating actual average income over longer periods of time.

Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
Furthermore I'd be interested to hear if any of you contesting the ops numbers have ANY numbers of your own to show. Any estimates of how much wrong those numbers are?


Typical estimates of average lvl 4 mission runner income is around 20mil isk per hour.
(This would be including people who earn as little as 10mil and those who may be able to maintain 30 mil per hour)
Again, these numbers are what you get over longer periods of time, not peak income.

PS.:
The numbers do not include the potential loss of sometimes extremely expensive mission ships (due to suicide gank, loot stealing games, pilot mistake in general or lack of skills to maintain a good tank, falling asleep, important phone calls with full stage aggro going on at the worst time etc.)
And those losses do happen, have a look at the ship loss statistics in the mission runner systems.
Neither do the numbers contain the loss of isk that can be caused by ninja salvagers,
nor the time it takes to build standings to access a good agent.

BaneBlade JG
Posted - 2009.10.04 22:22:00 - [538]
 

I read this whole thing and the OP still fails to account for any type of cost of running missions. The op fails to calculate the isk involved in Missiles, the isk involved in turning LP into more isk, the isk invloved in the skills needed to fly a Golem or the Golem and fittings as well.

Members of my corp make 20 mil an hour, and that seems to be the non-marauder norm. I do not think that is overpowered, when I can mine 3 hulks and an orca and make that per hulk. I cant run 3 missions at the same time. There is your balance.

JonnyRandom
Posted - 2009.10.04 23:12:00 - [539]
 

I am terribly sorry to interrupt your entertaining, if somewhat embarrassing, verbal sparring, but I was hoping someone would spare a bit of time to answer a jealous noob a quick question.

I don't like missile boats. Didn't like the Caracal I did lvl2's in and don't like the Drake I do lvl3's in. Sure I mop up quickly, but more often than not I tend to fall asleep!
What I think I like are the Amarr ships, so I wanted to know if someone knew how a Paladin would compare to a Golem in terms of time taken to finish the mission? Or whatever is the fastest Lvl 4 sub-marauder Amarr ship versus a Raven?

Kzintee
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.04 23:27:00 - [540]
 

Originally by: JonnyRandom
I am terribly sorry to interrupt your entertaining, if somewhat embarrassing, verbal sparring, but I was hoping someone would spare a bit of time to answer a jealous noob a quick question.

I don't like missile boats. Didn't like the Caracal I did lvl2's in and don't like the Drake I do lvl3's in. Sure I mop up quickly, but more often than not I tend to fall asleep!
What I think I like are the Amarr ships, so I wanted to know if someone knew how a Paladin would compare to a Golem in terms of time taken to finish the mission? Or whatever is the fastest Lvl 4 sub-marauder Amarr ship versus a Raven?


Nightmare.
Suffers slight resist problem vs. Guristas and Angels, pwns everyone else. Best when flown for Amarr agents with large number of Blood/Sansha missions. More instant DPS at longer ranges than Golem. No tractor beam bonus. Better than a Paladin, DPS wise.
Basically, THE choice of mission boat if you're not flying Golem. And it's
V
E
R
T
I
C
A
L


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