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Myyona
Minmatar
Ataraxia Pharmacies
Posted - 2009.07.01 12:19:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: Myyona on 01/07/2009 12:20:59
Originally by: Matthew

Originally by: Myyona
Let people get a share of the LP dependent on how percentage of the damage they dealt and do not reward people extra LP for teaming up on a single target.


Hardly fair reward for specialised tacklers, ewar etc, who probably won't have done much damage, but without whom you may not have got the kill in the first place.



How is the saying? "EVE isn't about being fair."

If YOU do not compensate the tackler for helping you out then you will properly not have many tacklers helping you out for much longer. This will encourage people to spread out to roam solo or in small packs with trusted friends, that is all we need.

fuze
Gallente
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2009.07.01 12:28:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Matthew
Edited by: Matthew on 01/07/2009 12:14:32
There is only one way to avoid LP-for-kills being farmed (Edit: that I can think of, anyway), and that is to make sure the reward is worth less than the ship being blown up.

It also can be an advantage. If swads of ISK farmers start doing FW you can shoot them everywhere and get LP for it as well. Knowing nothing about PvP they will be sitting ducks anyway.

Alz Shado
EverFlow
Posted - 2009.07.01 13:00:00 - [123]
 

Quote:
The technology behind this opens up doors to making other types of bays, just for ammo, just for livestock or whatever. Those options will be explored in future expansions.


Harems for the exotic dancers?

c'mon, you know that was the first thing you thought of, too

Nur AlHuda
Amarr
Callide Vulpis
Posted - 2009.07.01 13:19:00 - [124]
 

People are too enthusiastic about the FW changes but until i see it i dont trust it.

Easily it could happen that you would ned to kill npc in plexes so no speed tanking and each npc would have 0.001 or modified ammount so you would have to be plexbear to get good stuff. And if the lag gets not fixed until then i cant imagine the lagfest horros what will happen if one large fleet will farm a plex and another large fleet warps in they will shoot at each other and npc will shoot too. Most of the people would desync and lag out and fleet who would have more lag and would be attacking the plex would be instapoped by hostiles+npcs.

If the lag will not get fixed before that release nobody will even bother to do that except 10-15 people from each side.


Haldir Ravenclaw
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.07.01 13:58:00 - [125]
 

Still waiting on T2/faction drone modules and different drone rigs (good excuse to make them if your making different sized rigs!), drone implants and proper faction drones (pirate and/or empire - and yes I realise the rogue drone ones are more available now since one of the patches).

One can hope Sad

Other than, sounds interesting!

PS - where did 1.4 go? Shocked

Wrayeth
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2009.07.01 14:30:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Mercostol
the new rigs add a new problem also.
we need a dedicated ship hauler. give it 1million m3 of space for ships and a small cargo bay. orca costs or cheaper would be nice


These already exist. They're called carriers. Laughing

Also, thank you CCP for giving black ops a fuel bay at last! I knew there was a reason I trained black ops 5! (Aside from the additional 30% jam strength on my armor-tanked and trimarked widow.)

ishkabibble
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.07.01 15:13:00 - [127]
 

Quote:
Factional Warfare improvements - LP for kills

We have been closely monitoring reports on lag in Factional Warfare, analyzing the network behaviour, player behaviour and scrutinizing code. The reported lag does not always occur and is elusive to track down and resolve. We currently have engineers allocated to the resolution of the problem, working tightly with the quality assurance department and our bughunters.

Meanwhile, in an effort to make Factional Warfare more fun, we are looking at introducing Loyalty Point rewards for kills and captures, with special LP stores for each militia, offering unique goodies for hard working militamen and women. More details to follow in an upcoming blog by CCP Ytterbium.


Exploit waiting to happen. Seriously CCP think about it.

Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.07.01 15:19:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: ishkabibble

Exploit waiting to happen. Seriously CCP think about it.


Built in exploit safeguards about to be implemented. Seriously, think about it.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2009.07.01 15:47:00 - [129]
 

Edited by: Nyphur on 01/07/2009 15:50:39
Originally by: Matthew
There is only one way to avoid LP-for-kills being farmed (Edit: that I can think of, anyway), and that is to make sure the reward is worth less than the ship being blown up.

I've given this some thought and of course you're correct but how would that be implemented? There are only two ways that I can see. The most common sense one that you pointed out is to make sure the reward is of sufficiently small value compared to the ship being blown up. But as someone else already pointed out, if there's ANY value, it will raise the floor price for insurance fraud and impact the mineral markets unduely. If we want to avoid FW LP farming and the LP affecting the mineral market by altering the price floor on insurance fraud, I think we'd have to avoid giving out anything with direct ISK resale value. Of course a secondary market will emerge for anything tradeable coming from this LP store. But it should be relatively self-balancing as long as there's no direct value access for FW LP by buying immediate marketables.

I believe that the best route to take is for the store not to give items with ISK resale value. There are a few ways to do that, one of which is the dreaded "untradeable item" thing that a lot of MMOs do and that I must say EVE has been good to avoid. But perhaps instead, we could try something altogether different. Bear with me as I throw some ideas out there on what I think the store should contain and how we can limit the isk value of those items:


Restricted technology:
The idea here is to give us a store in which to buy special militia-only restricted technology for part LP and part ISK/tags. The modules would have the same stats as navy modules or T2 but would only be useable by people in the militia of a certain rank. The ships would be the same as the current navy frigates and cruisers. They would give extremely few minerals when refined (less than 1/4th the value of the ISK portion of their cost). The militia ships would be platinum insurable to the payout value of the isk/tags portion of their cost, setting the cost of losing one at the full LP cost and 30% of the isk/tag cost. The modules would drop as normal when we're killed and the enemy militia could turn them in for LP rewards.


Licenses:
The basic idea behind a license is that it gives you temporary access to some piece of restricted technology such as a tool, module or ship. When purchased, it is immediately applied to your character and so can't be resold. For example, you could buy a 2 hour intel license that permits access to a new map tool that would show enemy militia pilot locations in your militia's systems. Or perhaps a license permitting the map function to be used 10 times in total before expiring.

What about a 30 day "Gallente Militia Module License" that would allow you to fit and use of the special militia-only modules described above? Fitting and onlining the modules could require the appropriate license and the licenses could be restricted to certain ranks and cease the moment you leave the militia. This way we get our cheap militia modules but we can only use them while in the militia and paying regular LP upkeep on a license.


Cheap clones:
Rather than giving people something worth ISK, why not give them discounts on clones by allowing them to pay in LP or part ISK and part LP? Cheap insurance wouldn't work as that would influence the mineral market but cheap clones has no effect on anything else except reducing an infrequent isk sink a little.


Direct implantation:
What if we were able to buy cheaper implants from the FW stores but those implants are directly implanted once purchased rather than being given to us as items? With implanted implants having no resale value, this wouldn't be farmable. Buying some cheap skillbooks that are directly injected into our character sheets could also be pretty awesome for newer players.


Any thoughts? Good ideas? Terrible ideas? Any fatal flaws?

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.07.01 15:59:00 - [130]
 

Edited by: Gnulpie on 01/07/2009 16:00:28
Originally by: Nyphur

...bunch of stuff...



Horrible ideas.

Most of those ideas are going directly against whatever Eve stands for - free market.

Modules usable only for people in FW , bad.
Items bound to people who pick them up, bad.

You need MORE trade and FREE trade to make FW more successful. You must not make it a closed user group, that would be really bad.

MORE interaction between FW and the rest of Eve, not less. That is the way to go. Your ideas are all against this and horribly bad.

Edit: i hate forum bug

Nur AlHuda
Amarr
Callide Vulpis
Posted - 2009.07.01 16:04:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Gnulpie
Edited by: Gnulpie on 01/07/2009 16:00:28
Originally by: Nyphur

...bunch of stuff...



Horrible ideas.

Most of those ideas are going directly against whatever Eve stands for - free market.

Modules usable only for people in FW , bad.
Items bound to people who pick them up, bad.

You need MORE trade and FREE trade to make FW more successful. You must not make it a closed user group, that would be really bad.

MORE interaction between FW and the rest of Eve, not less. That is the way to go. Your ideas are all against this and horribly bad.

Edit: i hate forum bug


Gnulpiie there is already stuff in lp stores that can be obtain only for lp to certain faction so when its already implemented i dont see any problem there. people who want just that stuff and dont have lp had to buy it trough contracts as usualy.


Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.07.01 16:05:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Raimo on 01/07/2009 16:08:51

Horrible ideas, Nyphur. I don't want to see the rewards be too big but for players with a clue something like *discount* of their clone costs would be laughably small if they live in low sec.

TBH if balanced right I don't see some ISK- tradable stuff being a bad thing. Those FW players won't be grinding their lvl4's (like many do), instead they will be out in low sec killing and maybe even plexing... Probably making less per hour but hopefully enough overall to entice them to stay at it.

Das Ende
Posted - 2009.07.01 16:06:00 - [133]
 

no walking in stations this year? Crying or Very sadCrying or Very sadCrying or Very sadCrying or Very sadCrying or Very sadCrying or Very sadCrying or Very sadCrying or Very sadCrying or Very sadCrying or Very sadCrying or Very sad

Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.07.01 16:07:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Nur AlHuda


Gnulpiie there is already stuff in lp stores that can be obtain only for lp to certain faction so when its already implemented i dont see any problem there. people who want just that stuff and dont have lp had to buy it trough contracts as usualy.




All fine and dandy as long as it's tradable through contracts and in station. Bind- on- pickup and "item licenses" would suck bigtime. (Though the item license idea is not bad per se as long as there is "normal" LP stuff available with ISK value as well...)

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.07.01 16:11:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Myyona
I seriously hope you are scaling LP rewards with the ISK value of the destroyed ship when bought on the open market.



The LP should scale with the class of the ship, not with the market value. Market value is easy to manipulate and not always meaningful in PvP.

Jack Mancetti
Minmatar
Rennfeuer
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.07.01 16:12:00 - [136]
 

Quote:
We will be reporting on the winter expansion as it draws closer. All I can say, is that it is focused on sovereignty and you will not be able to walk in it.


Dear CCP,after 3 Years to wait to see my avatar real in game i think thats all a good fake to hold ppl in game who wait on this featureRolling Eyes
Noone want 3 kind of rigs or special Cargo for more crap where he can hold,
but well.....we'll see how much ppl u can hold without "walking on station"

Xtreem
Gallente
The Collective
White Noise.
Posted - 2009.07.01 16:18:00 - [137]
 

can u ask the 50% of the devs that fix things to put the gal pos graphics back to normal please. thanks

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2009.07.01 16:22:00 - [138]
 

Edited by: Nyphur on 01/07/2009 16:36:41
Originally by: Raimo
Horrible ideas, Nyphur. I don't want to see the rewards be too big but for players with a clue something like *discount* of their clone costs would be laughably small if they live in low sec.

TBH if balanced right I don't see some ISK- tradable stuff being a bad thing. Those FW players won't be grinding their lvl4's (like many do), instead they will be out in low sec killing and maybe even plexing... Probably making less per hour but hopefully enough overall to entice them to stay at it.

Fair enough, they might be terrible ideas and I'm really not a fan of restricting items from trade to be honest. I'm just trying to come up with ideas for the types of rewards we could have without giving them an immediate isk conversion rate. You can't just throw foresight out the window and say "if balanced right" that everything will be peachy. Actually sit down and project what will happen if the rewards are implemented. Let's say you get a million isk's worth of LP for killing a cruiser. That means someone using an FW alt to insurance-fraud cruisers gets 1m more when it blows up than they previously would have. An unfitted cruiser at the moment costs somewhere in the region of a few hundred thousand isk to lose after insurance based on current market prices. If you get 1m more, you've got over 500k profit there at current prices, the effect of which will be to push the theoretical base price of the ship up by 500k. This then pushes the price of minerals up.

Here's an idea. What if they limited the ISK value of the LP rewards to under the npc base cost of the destroyed fitted modules? That would eliminate the insurance fraud problem but it means you can only get a million or so worth of LP per good kill. It would need to be tweaked to ensure there are no modules for which you'd make a profit on fitting them to a cruiser and getting them killed as the npc base prices are a little incongruent with the current mineral market. Manual adjustments would do the trick.

EDIT: Or am I worrying too much over something that isn't important? Does it matter that the cost of losing our ships will increase to completely offset the LP gained from killing one? Could it actually be a good thing for EVE that tech 1 ships become more expensive to lose after insurance?

Havok Pierce
Gallente
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.07.01 16:57:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Nyphur
Fair enough, they might be terrible ideas and I'm really not a fan of restricting items from trade to be honest. I'm just trying to come up with ideas for the types of rewards we could have without giving them an immediate isk conversion rate. You can't just throw foresight out the window and say "if balanced right" that everything will be peachy. Actually sit down and project what will happen if the rewards are implemented. Let's say you get a million isk's worth of LP for killing a cruiser. That means someone using an FW alt to insurance-fraud cruisers gets 1m more when it blows up than they previously would have. An unfitted cruiser at the moment costs somewhere in the region of a few hundred thousand isk to lose after insurance based on current market prices. If you get 1m more, you've got over 500k profit there at current prices, the effect of which will be to push the theoretical base price of the ship up by 500k. This then pushes the price of minerals up.

Here's an idea. What if they limited the ISK value of the LP rewards to under the npc base cost of the destroyed fitted modules? That would eliminate the insurance fraud problem but it means you can only get a million or so worth of LP per good kill. It would need to be tweaked to ensure there are no modules for which you'd make a profit on fitting them to a cruiser and getting them killed as the npc base prices are a little incongruent with the current mineral market. Manual adjustments would do the trick.

EDIT: Or am I worrying too much over something that isn't important? Does it matter that the cost of losing our ships will increase to completely offset the LP gained from killing one? Could it actually be a good thing for EVE that tech 1 ships become more expensive to lose after insurance?


What about placing the reward for a kill as dependent on the target's kill/death ratio, modified by the # of people in on the kill? The better players become more valuable for a kill (as they appear more dangerous), and the cannon-fodder alt becomes less and less valuable.

Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.07.01 17:00:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Nyphur

EDIT: Or am I worrying too much over something that isn't important? Does it matter that the cost of losing our ships will increase to completely offset the LP gained from killing one? Could it actually be a good thing for EVE that tech 1 ships become more expensive to lose after insurance?


Might be, actually.

That being said, I respect your attempt at figuring this and I won't be able to crunch any numbers to help, I'm content in my belief that as long as CCP implements anti-farm mechanics it should work out fine... Stuff like only getting LPs once per WT per day etc. I'm sure they will figure out a solution that's acceptable while still retaining some significance to the rewards.

Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.07.01 17:01:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Havok Pierce


What about placing the reward for a kill as dependent on the target's kill/death ratio, modified by the # of people in on the kill? The better players become more valuable for a kill (as they appear more dangerous), and the cannon-fodder alt becomes less and less valuable.


Also a promising idea there.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2009.07.01 17:02:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Havok Pierce
What about placing the reward for a kill as dependent on the target's kill/death ratio, modified by the # of people in on the kill? The better players become more valuable for a kill (as they appear more dangerous), and the cannon-fodder alt becomes less and less valuable.

That's manipulatable. Anything where the value is dependant on a variable players have control over is manipulatable into an isk-creating exploit.

Of course we could just be wasting effort thinking about the issue, I'm sure they wouldn't be announcing this unless they already had an idea of what they're going to do. I'm extremely interested to see what CCP come up with here and I guess I'll reserve judgement and speculation until the devblog on it comes out with more details.

Kelron Queldine
Beyond Divinity Inc
Excuses.
Posted - 2009.07.01 17:13:00 - [143]
 

What's the reasoning behind handing out extra rewards for faction warfare kills beyond what everyone else gets out of PvP (i.e. loot and fun)? I'm fine with them getting some rewards for plex capture, because that will go some way towards turning them into the PvP battles I assume they were intended to be, but I don't understand why they need extra rewards for kills.

Nova Satar
Sileo In Pacis
Posted - 2009.07.01 17:16:00 - [144]
 

if it pushes the price of rigs up even more then im emo quitting

a good fit bs costs way to ****ing much as it is!

Confused

Satsuki Kakuri
Amarr
Posted - 2009.07.01 17:30:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Sera Ryskin
Edited by: Sera Ryskin on 30/06/2009 20:05:31
....
These are things that you could fix with just a few minutes of work, ....


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.07.01 17:38:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Kelron Queldine
What's the reasoning behind handing out extra rewards for faction warfare kills beyond what everyone else gets out of PvP (i.e. loot and fun)? I'm fine with them getting some rewards for plex capture, because that will go some way towards turning them into the PvP battles I assume they were intended to be, but I don't understand why they need extra rewards for kills.


Hehe, pirate tears! :P

Kel Nissa
Posted - 2009.07.01 17:38:00 - [147]
 

If FW player kills become valuable LP i see an issue:

Who earns the LPs when more then one player engages? Only the one getting the killmail? If this happen, the system is more or less already doomed, because it distributes LPs based on roles.

So for example, why should a dedicated tackler (a real dedicated tackler needs no dps) be unable to earn lp because his fleet m8s collect the kills?
Even worse: What is with the logistics supporting the front people killing the enemy?

It seems to be rather complex to find a fair / feasible calculation base.

Distribute LPs over the whole fleet? What happened to the unlucky guy shooting the enemy into hull bevore he jumped into the g8 camp of a friendly fleet?

Distribute LPs over all engaging players? Dedicated logistics are doomed.

LPs only for the killmail owner? Killmail *****s are already a pain in the ass. Congratulation to enhance this to LP *****s. DPS with small cycle or probably huge good timed alpha is now everything!

I think you get my message ;o) Feel free to find a suitable solution.

PJRiddick
Gallente
Posted - 2009.07.01 17:52:00 - [148]
 

Ive got but one request for this new expantion

Fis the sound,....

,...Please!!!

-=+>xXx<+=-

Kelron Queldine
Beyond Divinity Inc
Excuses.
Posted - 2009.07.01 17:54:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Raimo
Originally by: Kelron Queldine
What's the reasoning behind handing out extra rewards for faction warfare kills beyond what everyone else gets out of PvP (i.e. loot and fun)? I'm fine with them getting some rewards for plex capture, because that will go some way towards turning them into the PvP battles I assume they were intended to be, but I don't understand why they need extra rewards for kills.


Hehe, pirate tears! :P


It's hayfever.

Serious question though, I'd like to know why CCP think direct LP for kills is needed. LP for plex capture without LP for kills would in fact encourage the FW gangs to capture plexes rather than have roaming blobs. It may even be possible to scale the LP rewards depending on the level of defense, so capturing an undefended plex is worth less than capturing it after a fleet fight.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2009.07.01 18:06:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Kelron Queldine
Serious question though, I'd like to know why CCP think direct LP for kills is needed. LP for plex capture without LP for kills would in fact encourage the FW gangs to capture plexes rather than have roaming blobs. It may even be possible to scale the LP rewards depending on the level of defense, so capturing an undefended plex is worth less than capturing it after a fleet fight.

I think that's a fantastic idea. Instead of direct LP for kills, we could get LP for captures but extra for capturing plexes in which kills were made. It would encourage us to plex AND to pvp inside the plexes. Currently, the plexes aren't really used as pvp points of interest as intended, captures are quick and most go unnnoticed and most pvp occurs predictably on gates and stations. And currently there's no reason to really hold your ground in a plex, there are plenty more out there to capture. It'd be good to see some more tweaks to encourage attacking and defending plexes.


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